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Remotely Interesting

Join us to chat about Jamstack, coding the web, the people who code the web, and sometimes, lollies. With love from Netlify ūüíô.


039: The Jamstack Revisited - A Modern Context
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. The Jamstack definition is a lot different than it was when it first released, so let‚Äôs talk about where the Jamstack is today and how people can get involved with special guest Domitrius Clark!ūüĒĆ Plugs Official Jamstack Site Jamstack Glossary Jamstack Discord ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Ben Hong Brittney Postma Cassidy Williams Domitrius Clark Phil Hawksworth As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
44:09 09/26/2022
038: Thinking in Serverless
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. There‚Äôs been a lot of buzz about ‚Äúserverless‚ÄĚ and what it is, but what does it mean to ‚Äúthink in serverless?‚ÄĚ After all, it‚Äôs one thing to know what serverless means, but it‚Äôs another to be able to integrate it into strategic thinking. And in this episode, we have a special guest, Ivan Zarea, to help us with that serverless mindset.ūüĒĆ Plugs Netlify Serverless Functions Docs Up and Running with Serverless Functions (Free Course) ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Ben Hong Brittney Postma Cassidy Williams Ivan Zarea Salma Alam-Naylor As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
34:23 08/22/2022
037: Contributing to Open Source (OSS)
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.Let‚Äôs face it. Open source is a big world and it can be intimidating to navigate. In this episode, we‚Äôll talk about our experience with and what it‚Äôs like to contribute to it.ūüĒĆ Plugs OpenHatch Nadia Eghbal - Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software Criminal HTML ‚ÄúHacking‚ÄĚ Event Brian Douglas (Open Sauced) Ambassador Program - Auth0 Hacktoberfest Twilio Champion - Setting good expectations ‚ÄĒ Why Reproductions are Required - Learn With Jason (like and subscribe!) ‚ÄĒ Phil‚Äôs voiceover work: Peanut Butter & Mayo Sandwich Tweet Thread ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Tara Z. Manicsic Brittney Postma Jason Lengstorf Prince Wilson Phil Hawksworth Ben Hong As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
46:33 07/25/2022
036: Tool Decision Paralysis
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. Let‚Äôs face it. As developers, there are SO many tools for us to choose from! ūüėĶ‚Äćūüíę It‚Äôs not wonder why many of us develop decision fatigue and paralysis as the industry continues to grow and expand. In this episode, we talk about how we navigate the complex ecosystem and some of our favorite tools for being productive.ūüĒĆ Plugs DevsForUkraine Install Linux on Windows with WSL axe DevTools Centered Todoist Notion todometer Obsidian Trello IndieHackers /r/SomeoneBuildThis The Acronyms of Rendering on the Web Dependabot ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Ben Hong Brittney Postma Cassidy Williams Salma Alam-Naylor Tara Z. Manicsic As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
42:59 07/11/2022
035: Debate and Switch: Monopolizing Technology
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. In our first official Debate and Switch episode, Phil, Tara, and Ben are debating (and then switching) on the topic of Monopolizing Technology: Is it good? Is it bad? You‚Äôll have to listen to find out which it is!ūüĒĆ Plugs OpenJS Foundation Monopoly for iOS ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Tara Z. Manicsic Phil Hawksworth Ben Hong As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
33:59 06/27/2022
034: Engineer Managing with Madleina Scheidegger
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. If you are thinking about making the transition from an engineering role to a management role, then this episode is for you. In this session, we'll explore what our experience has been, and things to watch out for if you choose to make the switch!ūüĒĆ Plugs ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Ben Hong Brittney Postma Cassidy Williams Madleina Scheidegger Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
45:09 06/13/2022
033: Driving Change
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. In this episode, we talk about change management and driving forward critical-but-often-undervalued work with special guest Thuy Doan (pronounced Twee and Doan rhymes with ‚Äúcone‚ÄĚ! ūüć¶) from Prodigy Education. A company that aims to help every child in the world love learning. Their main products are currently a Math MMO for elementary school students and online tutoring.ūüĒĆ Plug The Change Equation WCAG 2.0 and 2.1 in Plain English by Dreams Fulfilled Through Music and Monday Loves You ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Thuy Doan Cassidy Williams Jason Lengstorf Tara Z. Manicsic As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
47:45 05/31/2022
032: Environmental Factors
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. In this episode we talk about our thoughts on the good, bad, and ugly of a workplace environment. You‚Äôll learn about some of our distractions, uncomfortable chairs, Jason‚Äôs shaking standing desk, and much more.ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Prince Wilson Jason Lengstorf Charlie Gerard Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic ūüĒĆ Plug NoSleep Podcast As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
52:56 05/23/2022
031: Minimum Viable Web Dev Knowledge
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify!¬†Since the toolchain around web development has become a lot more complex over the years, the path for getting started has felt more convoluted. However, is this really the case? Join us as we talk about what is considered ‚Äúminimum viable web dev knowledge.‚ÄĚūüĒĆ Plug /r/Superbowl Neopets Netlify Forms Jamstack Templates ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Cassidy Williams Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic Salma Alam-Naylor As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting!
39:24 05/16/2022
030: State of the Jamstack Survey with Seldo
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. In this episode, we talk about the results of the Jamstack Survey and what we learned from it.ūüĒĆ Plugs Jamstack Community Survey 2021 The State of JS The State of the Octoverse Alex Russell ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Lauris Voss Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic ūüĒĖ Chapters 00:55 - Topic and guest introduction 04:18 - What were your goals with the survey? 09:26 - Do you plan for a coordinated survey effort? 10:30 - Are there any surprises in the data? 18:07 - Do you see moments when everyone starts using a new thing reflected - in the data? 22:23 - Frameworks tend to have a long half life 26:26 - If developers like it, that's the thing that will win 30:38 - Is there a developer experience survey? 32:41 - Is there data that doesn't meet the cut for the survey results? 34:17 - Tidbits and Thought Things As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
39:54 05/09/2022
029: Living On The Edge of Glory
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.Most of us have heard things like CDN and caching when it comes to optimizing what we deliver to our end users when building sites and apps, but recently there‚Äôs been a trending terminology that‚Äôs crept up: ‚ÄúThe Edge.‚ÄĚūüĒĆ Plugs Salma‚Äôs YouTube Clip on Edge Network Netlify Edge Functions Docs ūüĎ• PanelistsPeople who were remotely interesting: Phil Hawksworth Jason Lengstorf Cassidy Williams Salma Alam-Naylor Ben Hong As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
38:24 05/02/2022
028: Dat Dusty Domain Doe
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.Whenever someone buys a domain, we all know that that side projects always gets prioritized and shipped to production in record time right? As if! ūüėÖ If you're anything like us, you've bought plenty of domains where the intent is there and sadly it never manifests to anything more than another line item in your domain registrar. Well, in this episode, we talk about those unused domains as well as an initiative we kicked off earlier this year to help us build something from our dusty domains.People who were remotely interesting: Ekene Eze (Kenny) Cassidy Williams Tara Z. Manicsic Ben Hong Jason Lengstorf Plugs mentioned in the show: Lynn Fisher‚Äôs Twitter As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting!
37:14 04/11/2022
027: Beyond the Code: Company Values & Yous Too
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.You have values (maybe) and the company you work for has values. Do they align and is that important? We're joined by the only guest to ever come back to our show, Thuy Doan, to get the tiniest sample size of opinions on the matter and learn from each others experiences.People who were remotely interesting: Thuy Doan Cassidy Williams Charlie Gerard Jason Lengstorf Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.ūüĒĆ Plugs
45:52 02/14/2022
026: Jamstack Journey: Buskana
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.People who were remotely interesting: Cassidy Williams Jason Lengstorf Ekene Eze (Kenny) Tara Z. Manicsic Zahid Mahmood As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
39:14 02/07/2022
025: Jamstack Journey with Evan Weaver, Fauna CTO
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify. To day we have the pleasure or meeting up with Evan Weaver, CTO of Fauna to hear about his Jamstack journey.People who were remotely interesting: Cassidy Williams Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic And special guest: Evan Weaver, Fauna CTOWho is he?Co-founder, CTO (former CEO) of FaunaThe Jamstack Journey ~2017 Global transactional database tech based on Twitter experience serverless before there even was 'serverless' in 2016 people wanted servers not APIs ~2018 found early adopters building GraphQL interfaces for Fauna in the Jamstack pivot to developer-led db as a service & the rest is history Being OK with the Weird him & co-founder (Chief Architect) Matt Freels ex-Twitter anarchist hippies Twitter: home of the weird off the shelf solutions like Cassandra & MongoDB wouldn't work for what they needed considering the journey of other small teams and how to help them "fundamentally motivated by anger and rage" fave quote of the show & why Fauna came around to help Moore's Law pun Where to Focus First there are only so many large companies w specialized dbs for the rest of us they wanted to make off-the-shelf dbs that would grow with company LAMP era analogy & steak dinners & web 1.0 data replication and inability to modernize 100s of millions of dollars a year on Oracle CHCHCHCHChanges from the developer out provisioning microservices and GraphQL the permission chain of architectural change "you don't know what the future is going to be you just know you need to iterate" Phil Wants to Talk to About Trust the bigger the company the harder it is for them to trust third parties is the foundation stable & secure making distributed strictly serializable Calvin algorithm giving people more information & transparency region groups Delegating Databases & Legacy Struggle knowing just enough to be dangerous some Phil puns no one migrates their database you can port if you want to...but maybe don't decoupled architectures besides the Jamstack mixing and matching TidBits & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹWhat is something old that you have that getting rid of isn't easy? sad rags more Pheels about Phil philtting and philing shirts not getting rid of old things...on purpose computer treasures, we want that data ummmmbilical cords & Beautician and the Beast Get started w Fauna for free! & join the slack community :)As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
45:46 11/17/2021
024: BYODB: Bring Your Own Database
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.People who were remotely interesting: Cassidy Williams Jason Lengstorf Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic SHOW NOTES:Who's got a favorite database?EveryoneStructured vs. Unstructured Data our first database experiences (lots of MySQL) learning about databases Jason thinks his brain gets bigger when he learns things Microsoft Excel does everything MongoDB & mongoose the GraphQL It is SQL or SQL Shadow and Bone (putting this here for Phil) How do you use DBs in a Jamstack architecture? having to do DBs for "real" sites abdicating responsibilities to the experts at a Database as a Service sharding and giggling from limited options & complicated setups to lots of new options FaunaDB Hasura Supabase PlanetScale, etc. decoupling the frontend from the backend via API endpoints & serverless functions, we're standardizing communication DX & How we choose DBs GraphQL user interface (GraphiQL) on the basis of the API, writing queries, accelerating dev workflow how much do we need to know about the DBs Phil is wise, you're welcome, Phil the dev's comfort level Who needs the top-tier? you probs aren't going to hit Twitter-scale by the time you outgrow the service, you'll prob. have the money to go bigger dbs aren't that incredibly different ask the company what your next step should be if you hit a limit kicking tires/free tiers are so valuable What features do we look for?- a clear, understandable API- an easy onramp to getting started/getting data- what am I building & what are the cost implications (rate limits, etc.)- even really brilliant, smart people like Jason mess up, a story about loops- having a playground like GraphiQL- a discussion of GraphQL hesitancy- Cassidy's professional conclusion, "ehhh"- Jason talks about dependsCassidy exhibits her humor mastery and it shines like the sun! ūüƧa resource! resource: a fantastic Phil Supabase resource: & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹWhat is the worst form of storage you own?As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.TRANSCRIPT:
42:35 09/01/2021
023: Collaborating Across the Chasm
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.People who were remotely interesting: Cassidy Williams Jason Lengstorf Ekene Eze (Kenny) Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic Marisa Morby Show notes:  Tuckman's stages of group development:'s_stages_of_group_development form, storm, norm, perform Collaborative deploy previews and conduits to tooling: As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
41:19 08/17/2021
022: Technology Crossing: The Research Rundown
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.People who were remotely interesting: Jason Lengstorf Ekene Eze (Kenny) & Special Guests Emily con Hoffmann Marisa Morby SHOW NOTES:What is research & how is it done? connect & learn from users there aren't many beakers in tech research, thanks, Jason research has been democratized a lot thanks to tools like Zoom used to be done on-site What is the motivation for research? used from conception thru seeing if your idea works a lot of assumptions without backing start w something you know but then you get out of your depths You are not your user escaping being self-referential¬† experiences and workflows are different there will always be someone who approaches another way When do you bring in research? across the company, not in just one spot, not at the end of the line before you know what you need to build Research Interviews aka "business therapist" how to ask questions this is not a test "ask an open-ended question and just leave it open and people will fill in the gap" *the Oprah moment* From abstract to concrete function research lead to new presentation which lead to higher adoption Multi-Team Management, cross-functional teamwork...makes the dream work iterative usability testing to make it make sense spending money, breaking things, pain & legacy code OR research¬† save yourself the heartache¬† get the feedback from not meanies/angries What skillz do you need? #1 be highly empathetic curious, analytic, compelling story-teller no design or STEM degree necessary understand and care about people Making research a part of Netlify building relationships throughout the company making sure the trust is there via constant communication learn how to do your own Just Enough Research by Erika Hall Join us in the research! & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹIf you had to move to a different field of research, what would it be and why?As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.TRANSCRIPT:
38:22 08/04/2021
021: Jamstack Ecosystem: Automated Testing with QA Wolf
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.People who were remotely interesting: Ben Hong Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic & we welcome, Jon Perl & Laura Cressman from QA Wolf ūüĎŹ!!¬†In this episode, we learn about testing from some people who hate testing. BUT really what they hated was all the setup and how hard it was to get up and running with testing. SO, they solved that problem with QA Wolf. Let's jump in!Phil makes a pun- we all squirm & booWhat is QA Wolf- setting up testing is such a pain, so Jon & Laura made automated testing as easy as manual testing- a hosted sass that while you use your site it creates tests based on actions- hit the ground running instead of being stunted by setupNo One Likes Creating Tests- QA Wolf is testing for people who hate testing- QA Wolf "testing for n00bs"- a lingering fear that in testing you'll break something, get rid of thatThe Different Types of Testing- QA is end-to-end testing- what are unit tests?- what is end-to-end testing?- what are critical workflows that need to be tested? How Does QA Wolf Work?- browsers on browsers aka no need to install - as you're walking through your site tracking code is injected w event listeners- there's a's complicated- they have the best selectors- written almost entirely in TypeScriptHistory in the Making...of QA Wolf- the first project- the goal of having everything created for you- getting better over time thanks to users feedback and dog fooding- "what would a better version of this look like?"- where were developers struggling?Collaborative-ness- acronyms on acronyms- Netlify Collaborative Deploy Previews ūüéČ- LAURA WON- QA Wolf being online means everyone can work together online- people can work on the same tests and ask team members to collaborate- team members from all different tech levels can participateHow do you Show what a Test Looks Like?- devs want it in code but what about low-code/no-code for less tech savvy- Ben did ūüėÖ manual testing with Selenium - start small, like with one task- flakiness of test frameworks- records video of desktop where test fails- show the exact JS line where the test fails- when a test fails just edit the test in line ūü§ĮAmazing stories of all the things we've done on the internet and all still somehow have jobs.TidBits & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹWhat in your everyday life do you wish had a testing suite?As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.TRANSCRIPT:
45:03 07/20/2021
020: DPR, ODB and Other TLAs
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.People who were remotely interesting: Ben Hong Cassidy Williams Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic SHOW NOTES:In this episode, we chat about Distributed Persistent Rendering, On-Demand Builders, and more acronyms than we know what to do with ūüėÜ We hope you have as much as we had recording this! As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.
38:59 07/07/2021
019: The Jamstack Can't Do That: Don't Go Into the Long Grass!
Show Notes DPR RFC: Matt's talk about simplicity at React Summit
38:41 06/23/2021
018: Tool Time With a Bunch of Tools: Headless CMSeseses
ūüĒĆ Plug Strapi Prismic Frontend Horse Daniel Phiri's Site
40:06 06/08/2021
017: Technology Crossing: Stardew Valley Futures
Discussion PointsHustle Culture meeting goals and deadlines vs? work/life balance team & management influence on hustle culture Burn Out working past wanting to work how to stop working? What's the alternative? what are some ways to change the way we work? what are some personal ways to set boundaries or deal with burn out?
41:41 05/25/2021
016: The Jamstack Can Do That: Be the Future
**The Future is in the Technology**- Quick overview of what the Jamstack architecture is and where it's headed- What & Why decoupling- What technologies exist now that help solve static problems of the past (e.g. serverless functions for dynamic data like payments, JWT for stateless auth, build plugins for more autonomous workflow, etc.)- What advancements are coming? (good point for edge handlers plug)**The Future is in the Ecosystem**- How is the ecosystem growing?- What are some new and exciting things being made in the ecosystem?
40:39 05/11/2021
015: Web Accessibility: An a11y Special with Epic Guests
ūüď謆Discussion PointsWhy a11y matters What is web a11y and why do we care? JS frameworks/React and a11y A11y in the developer community A11y has become seemingly more popular and more mainstream. Why? At the same time, the state of a11y on the web has not really improved (see: WebAIM million). It's our (collective) job to make the web-accessible. How to bake accessibility into your workflow¬† How does Netlify test for accessibility while building the product? (see blog post) Accessibility as acceptance criteria How does Netlify prioritize accessibility tech debt? How to champion accessibility at work Where to start?ūüďĚ TranscriptPreviously on Remotely Interesting: ¬†[00:00:04] Phil: [00:00:04] I think you should all reassess all of the conversations you've ever had with me and just think about how it really went.¬†[00:00:12] Cassidy: [00:00:12] Hello, and welcome to Remotely Interesting.¬†[00:00:14] Phil: [00:00:14] This is remotely interesting.¬†[00:00:16] Amberley: [00:00:16] Well, that seems a little presumptuous.¬†[00:00:18] Leslie: [00:00:18] No, no, no, that's the name of the show.[00:00:20] Music: [00:00:20] [Intro music]¬†[00:00:28] Cassidy: [00:00:28] Hello everybody, and welcome back. We're going to be talking about accessibility today. Also known as A11Y, which I know means accessibility, but I always read it as "Eleventy," like the static site framework and it throws me off every single time. But accessibility is important and we also have some team members from the rest of Netlify who work on this a lot.[00:00:53] So hello everybody.¬†[00:00:56] Amberley: [00:00:56] Hey! Howdy, howdy.¬†[00:00:59] Phil: [00:00:59] Is everyone comfortable with using the word numeronym?¬†[00:01:03] Amberley: [00:01:03] No.¬†[00:01:03] Phil: [00:01:03] I'm very happy - numeronym, numeronym.¬†[00:01:06] Jason: [00:01:06] I'm comfortable with you using that word. ¬†[00:01:07] Cassidy: [00:01:07] Yeah, it sounds good when you do it.¬† ¬†[00:01:09] Phil: [00:01:09] When I realized we were talking about accessibility and we were going to see it written like that, I was just excited at the prospect of being able to say the word numeroym.[00:01:17]Amberley: [00:01:17] Can we just point every time we need to say it and you'll just say it for all of us?¬†[00:01:21] Phil: [00:01:21] I'm at your service.¬†[00:01:23] Amberley: [00:01:23] Perfect.¬†[00:01:24] Cassidy: [00:01:24] We could do some ASR with that.¬†[00:01:26] Jason: [00:01:26] [Laughter] That's - welcome to Phil says soothing words. Okay, so what are we actually talking about today? We're talking about kind of accessibility in general, but I think maybe one of the most important things to start with is just, and I'm asking this, not because I want to know, but to set the stage here, okay? Why does accessibility matter?[00:01:49] Cassidy: [00:01:49] [Jokingly] You really don't want to know this.¬†[00:01:51] Phil: [00:01:51] Who wants that? That's a hot potato.¬†[00:01:54] Leslie, do you want to, do you want to open the bidding for why accessibility matters?[00:02:00] Leslie: [00:02:00] That's a meaty one. [Laughter] I like it. I like it. You know, I always think of it as building software for humans, right? And so at like the very base level, what we're building as engineers are things that people can use, right? So we probably want to reach as many of those people as possible. And you know, there's a lot of diversity in the world, a lot of different types of people using all different types of devices. And so it's our job as engineers to build things in a way that allows as many people as possible to use them at like a super base level, I think.¬†[00:02:28] Phil: [00:02:28] I've worked in places where there's been an accessibility expert and it's been - they have their parts of the project where, oh, there's a line item for accessibility. And that always kind of, kind of rankled me a little bit because yes, we need experts, but it's hard to just kind of have one point of a project where accessibility magically happens.¬†[00:02:49] So, we don't do that here, do we? Who's - is there an accessibility expert? Whose job is accessibility?[00:02:55] Amberley: [00:02:55] I feel like Leslie would be a great person to talk about this, at least on the front end core side, Leslie and I both worked together on the front end core side. And speaking for myself from previous job experience, like especially on smaller teams, you tend to have like one or two people who are very personally interested and passionate and sort of advocating for it on a team.[00:03:17] But I've been lucky to work on a couple of teams, including this one, where it's really sort of a core competency that's considered in the hiring process. So at least on this particular team we have individuals who are more - it's more in the forefront. People are more actively advocating. But as a baseline on the team, we have team-wide buy-in and sort of a built-in team ethos surround it.¬†[00:03:46] Leslie: [00:03:46] I would plus one all of that. I think one of the things we look for is like during the interview process, just does it come up? Is this something people have, are familiar with and have used in the past? And that's not, we're not going to not hire you if you haven't done a lot of accessibility work in the past, but it's, is this something you care about? And is this something you'll keep top of mind as you're developing? Right?¬†[00:04:02]So it is sort of a process of learning from other folks on the team. I wouldn't say that we necessarily have anyone who's like a hundred percent focused on accessibility all the time, but, as Amberley said, we have folks who sort of champion it internally. And that helps and kind of drifts out to the rest of the team members who maybe are focused on other areas - performance or, well, performance is a bad one cause that's also an accessibility issue, but in some other areas, right?[00:04:24]So it's about the knowledge share as well and doing some shared code review and pieces like that to kind of spread the knowledge.¬†[00:04:30] Hugues: [00:04:30] I want to say, I think if you have the luxury of having accessibility specialists on your team, I think that's super great. I used to work at a company where they had the accessibility team that was kind of like overlooking the product and like everything that we ship to the world.[00:04:47] So I think if you, if like, I think accessibility is important knowledge for everyone on your team, but if you can have specialists that really like learns and do educational stuff inside the company, inside the team, I think that's awesome.¬†[00:05:03] Jason: [00:05:03] I think there's like a nuance to it because I really like that we have accessibility experts in the sense that there is somebody who has deep knowledge, you know, as you said, like, someone who's there to help take things further.[00:05:16] And I think, you know, like I, I've worked with Amberley at a couple companies now, and she's always been one of those people who will like educate me about something that could be more accessible and here's why it's important and how.¬†[00:05:27]But what I think is where we, where it falls over and where I agree with Phil is I don't like it when teams think of accessibility as a thing that happens after you build the tool and you like throw it over the wall to the accessibility people and say, all right, well, you deal with whatever that is.¬†[00:05:43] Hugues: [00:05:43] And I think it's important for everyone to buy in. Leadership to buy in and design and content and engineering. I think it's just a culture thing in companies.¬†[00:05:55] Leslie: [00:05:55] Definitely agree. It doesn't start with engineering, right? It starts with how you build the product, how you think about the product or whatever it is you're building, right? And so coming at it with that mindset of accessibility, even at its most base core, what are you building level, which involves design and product and all of those sides.[00:06:11] I think coming at it from there helps bake it into the whole process and not kind of, oh, the engineer gets tagged in, you're ready to build the thing and all of a sudden you're the only one caring are these design patterns we're using even, you know, lend themselves well to accessibility. Maybe there's things we could have thought of earlier in the process to kind of support that.[00:06:27]Jason: [00:06:27] I have a question. Earlier you said performance is an¬† accessibility concern. And then just now you said, you know, accessibility starts in the design process. And for a lot of folks, I think when they think of accessibility, they're like, can I push the screen reader button and it like works?[00:06:44] So it sounds like it's way more than that. So can you give a more, maybe like a broader overview of what we're talking about when we start thinking through accessibility?¬†[00:06:53] Leslie: [00:06:53] I feel like Amberley might have a good queued-up answer for this. I feel like she's answered this before. In general, I think it's, you have to think beyond the screen reader, right? I think we so often default to accessibility just being does it work with a screen reader? Because that's a tool that most of us have on our computers already and can test with. So it kind of feels like a defacto, oh, it's accessible if I can use voiceover on it.¬†[00:07:12]But there are a bunch of different assistive technologies that folks are using to access certain, you know, the software that we're building. Everything from like sip-and-puff devices to neural, you know, brainwave scanners that are helping people navigate websites and apps. So it's much broader than just one specific area.¬†[00:07:32] Jason: [00:07:32] I'm going to ask you to clarify a term. You just said, sip-and-puff, and I'm not familiar with that.¬†[00:07:36] Cassidy: [00:07:36] What is that?¬†[00:07:37] Leslie: [00:07:37] So hopefully I'm going to explain this well. I'm also not an expert in this, but my understanding is that there is a device that you can use to, essentially, maybe if you don't have certain vocal capabilities, you can sip or puff into like a straw, essentially? And that can send, basically, connect up to some other device and can help you navigate something.[00:07:57] So I'm not - maybe Hugues or someone else has a little more like specific detail on how it works. But it's a way to kind of interact with things.¬†[00:08:05] Amberley: [00:08:05] It's just basically one type of alternative input method. Like another one, another good example that's one that I always recall is I worked at a disability advocacy nonprofit, and one of the people I worked with had cerebral palsy and she worked remotely and she used a chinpad to type using Morse code.¬†[00:08:29] Cassidy: [00:08:29] Whoa.¬†[00:08:29] Jason: [00:08:29] Interesting.¬†[00:08:30]Amberley: [00:08:30] So there's, to go back to Leslie's earlier point of a lot of times you think of accessibility and you think, can I push the screen reader button? And really you should be going all the way across the other side of the spectrum, which is, I cannot perceive the infinitely large constellation of ways that people could input and access. And that sort of universality is what I should think about instead of this one particular input mechanism or access mechanism.[00:09:05] Phil: [00:09:05] It feels to me like the web is this thing that is so difficult to know how people are going to be consuming it and how people are going to be interacting with it because there's so many unknowns. So it's trying to push the threshold down as low as possible to let as many people in and interact with things we're building in ways that we don't, we can't always predict.¬†[00:09:24] I think that's such an art. And I think you've already said there's a bit of a culture and a mindset to that. Just knowing that you can't control everything is really key. I also think it's interesting how extreme some of these examples can be. It's like, well, what, you know, what are we going to be able to support?[00:09:41] And again go, this, you know, this concern I think can go all the way right through to how do we craft the copy on a button, you know, how do we just write text, which is inclusive and easy to digest for people who either don't speak the first language or, you know, for everybody? And I love seeing the craft that goes into just thinking about what the words are that we write on things, you know, across that.[00:10:06] I think that's, that's something that kind of goes a bit overlooked often when we talk about accessibility.¬†[00:10:11] Hugues: [00:10:11] That's kind of also the beauty of the web that you're, you don't know how your site is going to be accessed, so it can be a phone, it can be like a PlayStation browser, it can be a lot of different things. I think that's the beauty of it. Like trying to make it work for every platform that exists today and that will be created in the future.¬†[00:10:31]And I'll still a hundred percent agree about, I think we often look at the - we're developers. We look at like the developers side, that there's a lot on like the language that you use, like the level that you can understand the text, in design, like the colors, the font size. I think there's a lot for everyone to know more about accessibility.¬†[00:10:54] Jason: [00:10:54] Well, and I want to come back to the performance is accessability thing and something that - someone shared a story recently, may have actually been one of you, about - it was a person who was in like a government services office and they saw a woman on a PlayStation portable, and they were trying to, they were like, oh, she's just playing a game. And then they walked behind her and saw that she was on the government website and like, you know, it's not a particularly high-powered website. It's just HTML and that device is objectively terrible for browsing the web as a modern web. But because it was accessible HTML, she was still able to fill out the forms and complete the thing.[00:11:34] And so that's another thing that I think is interesting when we talk about accessibility is like, it's not just like we're building special things for people with special needs. We're building things that work across the spectrum of access, whether it's that your device is low power, that you need a different way to do input or a different way of consuming the information.[00:11:54] Like I think, that was something that really started to sink in for me was when I started to realize that the things that we're doing for accessibility, we're not doing special things, like extra things. We're meeting base level use cases so that our, the things we build are actually usable, no matter where somebody gets to them from.[00:12:15] Hugues: [00:12:15] I think that's the, again, the beauty of it, where it serves everyone. So you can be in a particular situation where you don't see the color well on the site and at that particular moment, you need good color contrast. And maybe you never needed it before, but now you're on your phone, you're outside, you have difficulty to see color contrast, and now you need good contrast ratio, right?¬†[00:12:42] So that's, I think that sums up well when you say that, like, accessibility is for everyone. It's just, it can affect, it can depend on like your situation or the device you're using or a lot of different factors.[00:12:55] Phil: [00:12:55] It's like that, that one time when the sun came out in the UK and then I needed to have good color contrast on the screen. [Laughter]¬†[00:13:08] Hugues: [00:13:08] '98?¬†[00:13:08] Phil: [00:13:08] Yeah, good times '98.[00:13:09] Leslie: [00:13:09] I love this story Jason just told, too, about the PlayStation. At a previous job, I was working on sites for video games and those sites needed to work on the browser in the system that I was building for. So, and those browsers are objectively like pretty terrible. And so they're like only at the time we, I think CSS3 was like a new thing and you couldn't do most of the CSS3 things in this Nintendo 3DS browser. And so there were all of these, not hacks, but there were things we had to work around to make it work. But it was so important to us to make sure that, okay, you could actually get to the website for this game on the device where people are going to be using it.¬†[00:13:45] Phil: [00:13:45] And the, and that, that word kind of "baseline" has kind of crept in a couple of times. And you know, when, just thinking about, you know, we need to make things for different contexts. And, you know, for like Hugues, Leslie, and Amberley, you all work on slightly different pieces of the Netlify kind of web state, if you like, you know, there's the .com, there's the app, there's a lot of pieces and they're built using different technologies.[00:14:08] And this idea of the baseline is maybe different depending on the tools that you use is an interesting one to me, because I'm a, I'm a bit of a old kind of web curmudgeon who likes HTML, please. I like HTML and browsers do, too. And lots of assistive technologies do, too. And it's a really nice baseline. But we're building more complex things than that these days, you know, when, you know, is a React app that does lots of clever interactive things.[00:14:36] So I'm kind of curious about the different experiences that you've all had across different things that we've been building for Netlify based on the tools that you've had to use to build that. What's, what does that look like from a, from an accessibility kind of context for all of you?¬†[00:14:51] Leslie: [00:14:51] My hot take is that React itself doesn't cause accessibility problems, right? My hot take there is that developers have access to everything they need in React to make a React app accessible. But it's our job to, to do those things, right? So nothing is preventing us. It's just a matter of knowing the tools, knowing what you have available to you in terms of semantic elements, right?[00:15:13]All of that is available to you in JSX in React. But it's knowing those tools. It's understanding how focus management works so that you can make sure - actually React, I think, makes focus management easier than it used to be in the pre-React days where you were having to like move focus all around sometimes and do some weird jQuery stuff to, you know, focus in different areas. But React actually makes a little easier to kind of manage some of those things as long as you're aware of it and baking it in kind of, as you go.¬†[00:15:37] Cassidy: [00:15:37] I agree a ton. I think there's been plenty of hot takes around the internet of like "React isn't accessible." "Using JavaScript isn't accessible." JavaScript is a language in the browser for a reason. If you use it right, you could do, you can do a lot of things. So I agree with your hot take wholeheartedly.¬†[00:15:54]Amberley: [00:15:54] And the data proves that out, right? Like, for example, we were really proud in the Gatsby team last year when the WebAim survey came out, showing that, you know - Gatsby uses React and incidents of accessibility errors were about 50% lower on Gatsby sites than React sites in general. Which to me proves out that it's not so much about the tool as about the community and who's wielding the tool.¬†[00:16:25] So we had put a lot of emphasis and intention behind building out accessible examples and building it into the tooling and stuff like that. And I think you see that kind of intentionality ripple out. It doesn't make it perfect, but that's a great indicator of it's more about how you wield the tool than the tool itself.¬†[00:16:46] Jason: [00:16:46] I agree with that, like, to the very bottom of my soul because I feel like the thing that's, the thing that's so important in communities and in frameworks is like, we have to lead by example. Right? And so if the frameworks are out there saying you should probably do accessibility, but it's hard so we're not going to do it in any of our examples, they're sending a message. That's communicating to the people who use your tool. Oh, accessibility is hard, we'll do it later, we'll do it later. And then it never gets done because everybody's under deadline.[00:17:14] What I thought was really cool about Amberley and Marcy Sutton at Gatsby who put so much effort into making sure that it was a top-level concern, this is not a thing that we ship without. This is a, like, if we don't have this, we don't ship kind of concern. And that shows. It shows in the examples, it shows in the way people talk about it. And as Amberley said, it shows in the results.¬†[00:17:35] And I think that, you know, it's a good reminder to people who are in positions of leadership. If you run a framework, if you run a community, the things that you put an emphasis on are the things that your community will put an emphasis on. And so, you know, you have a lot of control, whether or not you want to admit that's a thing.[00:17:52] If you're out there running a framework, if you're not putting accessibility top of mind, you're actively breaking your community. And that's a, that's an important thing to keep there.¬†[00:18:01] Leslie: [00:18:01] Amen. It's almost like this is about humans at the core, right? It's almost like people are who we're developing things for and not just software and code for the sake of it. Right? Imagine that.¬†[00:18:12] Hugues: [00:18:12] And I think we all know that a lot of people will just copy-paste your example from your docs without reading.¬†[00:18:19] Phil: [00:18:19] Not my example. They never copy and paste my example. [Laughter]¬†[00:18:24] Hugues: [00:18:24] So if these examples are not accessible, then you just like, keep the problem forever. Think it goes even in like Stack Overflow's answers, whatever you write code. If these are not accessible, then you just like continue the problem I think.¬†[00:18:41] Leslie: [00:18:41] The other thing is that, that sometimes that line between what's accessible and what's not can be really murky. Right? Where it's like, am I meeting that standard? Is what I just built - like I used Semantic markup, but maybe I didn't pay attention to my focus order or something. Right? But that can be hard to judge.¬†[00:18:55] My kind of piece of this is anything is better than nothing, right? So it doesn't have to be perfect to put out an accessible example, do the best you can, and then learn from it as people, hopefully, help guide you and give you feedback on it.[00:19:08] Hugues: [00:19:08] As long as you're trying, I think you're already better than half of the websites.¬†[00:19:13] Jason: [00:19:13] And something that I keep seeing repeated over and over by accessibility specialists is like, the best way to be accessible is to just write markup. Like stop reinventing controls and components. If you are making an input, use an input. If you're making a button, use a button. And that gives you so much default accessibility because so much effort has gone in to making markup accessible. So instead of creating a div and adding the click handler and then trying to deal with focus states, like don't do that. Just use a button.¬†[00:19:44] I see Amberley making a face. So I'm going to let you speak to that. [Laughter][00:19:51] Amberley: [00:19:51] For context, I don't hide anything on my face. I am wildly aware of that fact.¬†[00:20:00] Cassidy: [00:20:00] It's a blessing and a curse.¬†[00:20:01] Amberley: [00:20:01] I was getting, I was getting very excited because that tied back to something that was relevant to what we were talking about a couple of minutes ago that I didn't quite get to, which is two points. One, one of the legitimate pieces of that concern, I think, about JavaScript frameworks is that they do make it so much easier to lean on scripting instead of on the markup and structure that we have available to us.¬†[00:20:27] So it's not that the tool, again, it's not that there's something wrong with the tool itself. It's the way you build the tools. So you have to be intentional about not leaning towards scripting when you don't need it.¬†[00:20:39]But then also the other piece of what you said that I think is interesting is there's sort of a whole new world of almost accepted primitives that has developed in web design in terms of these accordions and sort of all these other things that don't have associated HTML standard primitives associated with them. So in some ways the standard web hasn't evolved with web developers to the point where there are reasons why people do have to keep rebuilding some of the stuff that they're trying to rebuild.[00:21:10] Obviously, if something's a button, you should just code it as a button. There are things like that exists and you should lean on. But there's also the way the web has evolved in our interaction patterns that I do wonder, you know, what happens with evolving HTML and evolving these new patterns so that people don't have to keep reinventing certain things.¬†[00:21:28] Leslie: [00:21:28] I love that. Right? It's the document object model for a reason because it was built for documents. Right? But now we're using browsers for apps and interactive experiences. And so I think, you know, obviously the folks working on the spec are doing great work and moving things forward, but there's always more work to be done, I think, to kind of fill those gaps.¬†[00:21:45] And with the CAG, web content accessibility guidelines, as well. Right? They're like always, not a little bit behind, but we sometimes move faster in how we're kind of developing new patterns in what we're trying to do in the browsers and the guidelines sometimes have to kind of catch up. So we've got to be at the forefront of that as the developers and not always rely on the guidelines to tell us exactly how to do it.[00:22:06] Cassidy: [00:22:06] Are there any projects that you all like that are accessibility focused that help you not reinvent the wheel? The one that comes to mind for me is Reach UI. That one is so nice for just drop-downs and they have, they have really large state machines just for figuring out if someone clicks and moves things away and stuff. And I thought that one was really impressive, but I'm sure there's ones that I don't know about.¬†[00:22:27] Amberley: [00:22:27] So Reach UI is the one that I would point to also, and in previous projects, we've used Reach UI components as a base to then build component libraries off of. And that's a great example of sort of, building out a centralized pattern that someone has to put energy and attention and thoughtfulness into analyzing and testing and sort of leveraging on top of that.¬†[00:22:51] To me, that's sort of exactly what I'm thinking of when I say it's a button, take advantage of a button. It was designed - everything underlying an HTML button is designed that way for a reason.[00:23:01] Similarly, there are people trying to answer that call, seeing this need for these new web primitives to be built and putting them out there, like the Reach UI library for people to build on top of.¬†[00:23:13] Jason: [00:23:13] And I think that's what, like, that's what we want the JavaScript community to be. Right? What I think is really inspiring about JavaScript over the last five years or so is with the prevalence of Babbel, we kind of created this ability to test new specs in the wild before they become permanent so that we can see what happens when somebody uses it like this? What problems arise? What do people run into? So that we don't hit this problem.¬†[00:23:39] Like, when you put something into the web spec, you can't break it. Like, we've seen what happens, you know, I don't know if anybody remembers like array.smoosh, but like, this is, this is all stuff that like, we have to be really careful because if somebody builds something for the web, we have to support it forever. Or else we risk so much, you know, so much breaking and loss of history because we accidentally broke tens of thousands or millions of websites.[00:24:05] So I love the idea of letting JavaScript be the place where we prove these ideas out. And I think that Reach is a good example of being thoughtful about this. How do we create primitives that Reach can provide, that we can build on and test, and we point out what's working and what's not. And then once we've got something that consistently works for the 90 percentile use cases, then we pull that into the browser because we know it's going to work.[00:24:29] And I find that really encouraging, and I wish that was more of the model around everything and not just like, look at this new cool JavaScript feature. I want to use optional training today so I'm going to turn on Babbel stage three. It's like, no, let's use it for all of this stuff because that's what it's so good at.[00:24:47] Leslie: [00:24:47] I love that. I also have to give a shout out to Heydon Pickering who I feel like has done a lot of work around inclusive components and published that work and kept a blog. And that was some of the earliest stuff that I was looking at when I was trying to figure out how does all this stuff work? Because Reach is also amazing, but it's a little bit newer and so looking back even further, people who were putting up blog posts and examples, and working through some of this stuff in public is, has been super valuable for me.¬†[00:25:08] Hugues: [00:25:08] I wanted to do that exact shout out I think. It, the inclusive components, what I really like is there's like a lot of educational stuff that you can learn also. So it's not like, oh, you want to do a toggle button? Here's the code and the here's how to import it. It's like, it goes through this is the problem, this is how we can tackle it, this is like the different state it should have.¬†[00:25:33] So it kind of also educates you on how and why these decisions are made so that you can make also better decisions in the future for your own components. I think inclusive components. It's really awesome resource.¬†[00:25:45] Leslie: [00:25:45] There are also trade-offs. Right? There's not always like one perfect way to do it. And I love that's, Heydon covers that, but there are other folks writing about this too, who are like, okay, well you could make this tab component accessible in one of three ways, or here, you know, some examples of how I've done it.[00:25:59] And sometimes depending on your use case, you might need to choose one over another. Right? But being aware of kind of what's out there helps make that choice.¬†[00:26:06] Cassidy: [00:26:06] I think what you said and what you said earlier when you, I think it was you Leslie, but we've kind of all touched on it. It's good to at least try to start something. And then even if it's a little bit, it's better than a lot of things and knowing that there's so many options out there and that there's, it's hard to mess this kind of thing up. And so as long as you try, it's a good thing.¬†[00:26:28] 'Cause a lot of times I've seen so many people where they're just, like, I want to use like this ARIA label thing, but I don't want to mess it up and then like ruin someone's experience. But just trying it I think is worth it. And you're not gonna make it any worse by just trying it if it's not accessible at all in the first place.¬†[00:26:47] Hugues: [00:26:47] Sorry, I think that's a really good way to learn. Right? So the way I learned at least was like, all right, this site, I need to do a schedule. Like it's an event site. So I'm going to do the schedule. Like I'm going to go learn on what should be the markup and everything. So now you know how to do schedule. Next time you, it can be cards, right? Because cards components come back all the time.¬†[00:27:10] So now you know how to do schedule, you know how to do cards. And then the next one can be, I don't know, sliders or whatever. But then after your five, six, seventh site, then you have like really good baggage of how to make all these components. So I think that's a really good way to, to type it.¬†[00:27:28] Leslie: [00:27:28] It's important to educate yourself as you go too, right? Like I really do believe anything is better than nothing. On the flip side, too much ARIA can be really challenging for people to use. Right? If you put ARIA in too many places or in the wrong places, potentially, you could be creating an experience that's really still, maybe it's overly accessible? Or is really frustrating for someone to navigate around because then they're waiting for all these labels to be read out. Or I already had the context from the semantic element you used, you didn't need to add an ARIA label on top of it.¬†[00:27:54] So it's one of those things that's like, yes, anything is better than nothing, but also make sure you're learning as you go. And my rule with ARIA in particular is like, it's sort of the Fight Club rule. Like try not to use ARIA in general. And if you need it, like, ask yourself why? Just double check yourself there. Try to rely as much as you can on kind of the primitives and semantics first.¬†[00:28:22] Phil: [00:28:22] Those weren't the Fight Club rules! [Laughter] They repeated the Fight Club rules and you still botched it.¬†[00:28:26] Leslie: [00:28:26] I did, I did. The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club, so I guess don't talk about ARIA? I don't know. ¬†[00:28:32]Amberley: [00:28:32] Don't use ARIA unless you have a compelling reason to use ARIA. Now, I was just going to, I was just going to back up that point, Leslie, with, you know, trying any time to tie back to something concrete.[00:28:45] I think this is also from the WebAim reports, but there's actually a correlation between higher usage of ARIA and higher incidents, instances of accessibility errors. So a lot of times when you're trying to like throw the kitchen sink at something, you can actually make it worse. So intentionality around ARIA is important.[00:29:10] Jason: [00:29:10] So I want to, I feel like at this point I'm gonna make an assumption that you, our dear listener, are now super excited to go out and start making these changes. Right? And so for someone who is really excited about this, I know that there are some tools that can automate this, that can send some checks, that can do some things. So if somebody wants to get started, what should they look into adding to their projects today?¬†[00:29:32] Hugues: [00:29:32] If you want to start, I wouldn't lean on automatic stuff to be honest. I think automatic stuff can catch some errors, but I think there's a lot of errors that they can't catch. So I would start manually by reading articles about accessibility, about what you want to build. And also reading about how to do testing with voiceovers or another screen reader. Start to do manual stuff and then you can compliment with the automatic tooling after.¬†[00:30:04] Jason: [00:30:04] So, so you would recommend not using the automatic stuff until you've done the manual? Or like will the automatic stuff catch more than you would catch on your own?¬†[00:30:14] Hugues: [00:30:14] I think the problem with the automatic stuff is it can give you like a false positive that the website is accessible. Like you use the tool, a hundred percent, all right, my job is done. Onto the next thing. And then if you start manually testing, you realize that there's like tons and tons of issues.¬†[00:30:33] So I would, personally, get comfortable with like manually testing and, I think, automatic testing for like font sizes, color contrast issues. There's a lot of things that it can catch super easily. But it's never going to beat manual testing. So I would, I would try to learn how to do manual testing before relying on automatic tool.¬†[00:30:57] Jason: [00:30:57] Okay.¬†[00:30:57] Phil: [00:30:57] That seems to back up that kind of point that's come up a few times that, that word "intentional." It feels like being very targeted and being very intentional about what you're, what you're trying to do and building an understanding of how you can improve things by, you know, taking certain actions. That seems to be a result of, you know, that kind of manual focus and digging in, rather than hoping you can point a tool at it. And then ta-da! You know, you crank that handle and then it's magically accessible.[00:31:24] Leslie: [00:31:24] It's all user experience. Right? And I think accessibility is the same way that having, again, I am not a screen reader user myself, so I don't know exactly what that's like day in, day out. So I can't purport to say that's my experience, but using a screen reader or using some of these assistive technology devices allows me some understanding of what that user experience is like.[00:31:44] You know, I use apps all the time visually with my mouse and so I know what that user experience feels like. Actually, you trying out a screen reader or trying out some of these, the actual assistive technology devices, gives me a better sense of what that user experience is like, which allows me to fix the errors better, to understand why I'm coding the way I am.¬†[00:32:00] Why did I use that semantic element instead of that one? Why do I need ARIA here? Understanding the why is a lot easier, I think, when you're actually testing them out yourself and trying to tap through, you know, to see where the focus goes.¬†[00:32:11] You kind of experience it firsthand as opposed to just seeing an error and saying, oh, I'm going to go fix the error. Right? Which can help once you're kind of further along in your accessibility journey.¬†[00:32:20] Amberley: [00:32:20] Well, I've done a lot of thinking about how people can get started in accessibility. And like you said, okay, you're starting from the point of, I understand why this is important. I have a general understanding. I'm bought-in. Where do I go?[00:32:33]I actually wrote a resource site along this progression where you start with this is why you should buy in, this is why you should care. Quick wins - for, here are the six most commonly reported accessibility errors caught by automated testing tools. And then how do you start testing? Right?[00:32:52] And so going into that if anyone's familiar with Madeline Parker, Madeline has this really wonderful sort of metaphor that she's developed for accessibility testing, specifically, around coffee which is like, if anyone here is a coffee fan, if you think of something like a French press, you know, it's coarse grind, you use it, you'll end up sort of with more grinds in your coffee. And it's better than nothing, but it's not necessarily the smoothest experience. That would be something like automated testing where the numbers vary, but generally what I see for automated testing is it's something like 30 to 40% of accessibility errors can be caught by automated testing.[00:33:31] So nodding back to what Hugues was saying about it can give this false sense of security if you run an axe Audit or a Lighthouse audit and you get a hundred or you get no errors, you can feel confident-ish about 30% of your experience. Like that doesn't mean that you're done. But it does give you a strong sort of like beginning.¬†[00:33:51] But then as you sort of go along that spectrum of - like Lighthouse, I think, would be one of the examples of the most top-level introductions where it doesn't get super deep into the errors, it doesn't have a strong interface for you to really dig in, but it's a great start. And then along the spectrum to something like axe, which will surface more detail and more errors. And then all the way to something like live user usability testing.¬†[00:34:20]So I think moving along that spectrum, you'll learn a lot as you progress through those different types of testing, but keeping in mind that any one particular type of testing is not going to be a sort of a catch-all or a solution for everything is important.¬†[00:34:39] Jason: [00:34:39] Well, I mean, I feel like we could continue talking about this for days and days, but in the interest of time, we're going to move into Tara's favorite section - Tidbits and Thought Things.¬†[00:34:50] All: [00:34:50] Yay!¬†[00:34:51] Jason: [00:34:51] So we're going to ask a rapid-fire question of everybody in the room, and today's question is what's one thing in your house that you wish you could click your fingers - snap your fingers is, I think, the phrase - and change the accessibility of?¬†[00:35:03] Phil: [00:35:03] I mean, if you want to make this inclusive so that the Brits can understand it, click your fingers means snap your fingers. ¬†[00:35:08] Jason: [00:35:08] Snap is American, click is British?¬†[00:35:11] Cassidy: [00:35:11] You say click?¬†[00:35:11] Phil: [00:35:11] Yeah, click. Like this. Snapping is crunching and breaking a thing.¬†[00:35:16] Cassidy: [00:35:16] I don't know if I believe you.¬†[00:35:17] Leslie: [00:35:17] Does that mean in Avengers that Thanos clicked his fingers? Is that the thing? The click heard round the world? ¬†[00:35:23] Phil: [00:35:23] It was a bit of a scat, jazz version.[00:35:28] Leslie: [00:35:28] That's amazing.¬†[00:35:29] Jason: [00:35:29] All right. Focus up everybody. Cassidy, what is one thing that you would snap your fingers, click your fingers and change the accessibility of in your house?¬†[00:35:36] Cassidy: [00:35:36] My humidifier. It's such a pain to refill that thing because you got to like take it off of the base, refill it, and then like do the whole upside down flip thing. It's a pain in the butt. I would change the accessibility of that and make it easier to refill and to just use. I'm sure there's advances in this technology out there, but every humidifier I've had has been such a pain to refill.¬†[00:36:00] Phil: [00:36:00] You had that loaded up.¬†[00:36:01] Cassidy: [00:36:01] I was ready as soon as I saw this question. [Laughter][00:36:07] Phil: [00:36:07] Who's next? Amberly? Do you have one?¬†[00:36:10] Amberley: [00:36:10] I'm a very pragmatic person. And I feel like I have a very pragmatic and not-creative answer to this, but my house was built in the sixties. So what I always think about, especially for like aging in place, if I live here for a long time or resale for someone who may have mobility issues or buying the house later would be like, my house is older. So narrow doorways, narrow hallways, narrow ways to get around. Widening hallways and widening doorways, sort of making it easier for anyone to get around.¬†[00:36:45] And steps. Steps is also a huge thing with entries into the house and stuff like that. So very pragmatic answer. But that is what I would do.¬†[00:36:53] Cassidy: [00:36:53] That's real. All those old houses have so many, just like, we're going to step down into the living room for no reason. Like, they did a lot of that.¬†[00:37:00] Leslie: [00:37:00] That's like my seventies sunken living room. Yes. It doesn't work with a Roomba. Really problematic with a Roomba. Not a fan.¬†[00:37:08]Hugues: [00:37:08] They didn't think of the Roomba in the seventies.¬†[00:37:10] Amberley: [00:37:10] Think of the Roomba!¬†[00:37:11] Cassidy: [00:37:11] Come on.[00:37:12] Phil: [00:37:12] Think of the Roomba, people, come on. There's the real victim here.¬†[00:37:17] Leslie, how about yourself?¬†[00:37:19] Leslie: [00:37:19] So I've got a nice little backyard with a nice little fence and there's a gate in the fence, but the gate only has a latch from the inside. So there's no way, I mean, for safety reasons, I guess it's very smart because no one can just come into my backyard. But this is a little bit problematic when people come to, I don't know, mow my yard. Or in non-COVID times, if I were to have friends come over and I wanted them to meet me in the backyard.[00:37:40]So it'd be really nice to have a, snap my fingers not have to go through the effort of figuring out how to like, get the lock on the other side and then figure out how to lock it. Not great. ¬†[00:37:50] Phil: [00:37:50] Makes sense. Yep.¬†[00:37:53] Who's next? Me?¬†[00:37:55] Jason: [00:37:55] You are.¬†[00:37:56] Phil: [00:37:56] Okay. So mine isn't in my house. So sorry, I'm probably bending the rules a bit.¬†[00:38:01] Cassidy: [00:38:01] This sounds like cheating already. ¬†[00:38:01] Jason: [00:38:01] You're immediately disqualified. Moving on.¬†[00:38:03] Phil: [00:38:03] It's in my car. It's in my car. Because I'm really, I was really excited to get a car that had a radio that has like CarPlay on it. You know, where it kind of picks up the controls from your phone. But it means that the screen for the controls for the radio are a big kind of glass panel. So big touch screen, and that's really flexible and really cool. And it's great if you're in the passenger seat and the car isn't moving, but if the car is moving and it's bumping around and if you're driving, having no physical feedback, when you reach out to touch control.¬†[00:38:34] I don't know how I'm still alive, if I'm honest. The number of times I was trying to just press a giant button that's big on the screen, but I can't reach out and just feel it. And I'm just like hunting around. Not great.¬†[00:38:46] Leslie: [00:38:46] So what town are you in? Everyone there stay off the road.[00:38:52] Phil: [00:38:52] I'll stay put.¬†[00:38:53] Amberley: [00:38:53] Having been rear-ended by a guy who was fumbling with the radio, I'm firmly on your side with this.¬†[00:39:00] Cassidy: [00:39:00] It was Phil!¬†[00:39:01] Phil: [00:39:01] I mean, the fact that I'm -¬†[00:39:04] Cassidy: [00:39:04] It was Phil!¬†[00:39:07] Phil: [00:39:07] If anyone from my insurance company is listening, I'm sure they are, that wasn't me. Please don't make my premium go up.¬†[00:39:13] Amberley: [00:39:13] Where were you in the summer of 2018?¬†[00:39:18] Phil: [00:39:18] I don't know. It was a rainy one here. It wasn't '98. [Laughter]¬†[00:39:24] Cassidy: [00:39:24] Callback![00:39:24] Phil: [00:39:24] Hugues, how about you?¬†[00:39:25]Hugues: [00:39:25] I'm going to go with the appliance route also. But I'm going to go with my washing machine. I don't know why there's twenty-five settings. I just want, it should be one button, wash my clothes - and maybe wash my clothes. Maybe like water temperature. But other than that, like, I don't know why it's so complicated.[00:39:46] Jason: [00:39:46] I'm actually going to go the other way with it because I have a whole bunch of, like, small electronics in my house that tried to simplify their interfaces by having one button that does seventeen things. And so if I press it once it does one thing. If I hold it, it does another thing. If I tap it three times, it does a third thing. And I have no idea how any of these things operate.[00:40:08] So I'm constantly breaking my settings and then I have to go to the internet to look at their, their docs to figure out how it works. And I'm like running a stopwatch to know how many seconds I need to hold this button for it to get to the right mode. It's - come on. That is not a usable device.¬†[00:40:22] Cassidy: [00:40:22] Speaking of humidifiers and those kinds of things, I have this desktop humidifier and you press the nose.[00:40:28] Phil: [00:40:28] What is that?¬†[00:40:32] Jason: [00:40:32] In order to continue talking about this we have to describe it. Cassidy is currently holding up to the camera what looks to be a tiny little Kawaii cat with a propeller coming out of its head.¬†[00:40:44] Leslie: [00:40:44] And it's a humidifier.¬†[00:40:45] Jason: [00:40:45] Please continue.¬†[00:40:45] Leslie: [00:40:45] It's cute.¬†[00:40:46] Cassidy: [00:40:46] It's cute. It's a pain because for the same reasons Jason said. You press the nose to turn it on, but depending on how long you press the nose, it changes things. So for example, if I press it for like three seconds, the face lights up. I don't need my humidifier to light up. And then if I press it for a few seconds the fan will go on. And then if I tap it, it's like spurts of water versus a steady stream. This is a very confusing humidifier. And it's a pain to refill!¬†[00:41:24] Jason: [00:41:24] All right. I think we need to, we need to go ahead and call this one before we go into a humidifier review hour.[00:41:32] Amberley: [00:41:32] Before Cassidy finds anymore humidifiers. [Laughter]¬†[00:41:35] Jason: [00:41:35] All right, everybody. That's going to do it for us this week. We are so excited for having you here with us. Join us next time, where we are going to talk about the Jamstack Can Do That: Theee Fuuuturrrrre.[00:41:47] Phil: [00:41:47] Is that a Halloween episode? Is that a Halloween episode you were just trying...?¬†[00:41:54] Jason: [00:41:54] Is that not how - what's the future thing? Like we might need Chris's help for this. Do some big, like reverb in space. Like [echoing] the future!¬†[00:42:03] Cassidy: [00:42:03] I just kind of think of Squidward and SpongeBob going like "Futuuuure," while doing crunches on the ground. [Laughter][00:42:11] Jason: [00:42:11] All right. So you'll just have to tune in next time to figure out what the heck that's all about. Thanks for joining us. I've been, Jason always-take-some-dishes-while-I'm-walking-down-the-stairs Lengstorf.¬†[00:42:24] Amberley: [00:42:24] I'm Amberly can-usually-find-that-where-you're-looking-for Romo.¬†[00:42:29] Cassidy: [00:42:29] I'm Cassidy will-always-offer-you-part-of-my-snack Williams.¬†[00:42:34] Hugues: [00:42:34] I'm Hugues I'll-always-make-breakfast Tenue.¬†[00:42:36]Leslie: [00:42:36] I'm Leslie writes all-the-notes Conewhy.¬†[00:42:39] Phil: [00:42:39] And I'm Phil I-well-actually-people-who-misremember-the-rules-of-Fight-Club Hawksworth.[00:42:44] Amberley: [00:42:44] [Laughter] I love that we started this episode calling out Leslie, and we're ending this episode calling out Leslie.¬†[00:42:54] Cassidy: [00:42:54] Full circle.¬†[00:42:55] Jason: [00:42:55] [Outro music fades in softly] Just to put a bow on it, Phil, one more time before we leave, can you talk about what A11Y is?¬†[00:43:04] Phil: [00:43:04] That is a numeronym. A numeronym.¬†[00:43:10] Cassidy: [00:43:10] Wow.¬†[00:43:11] Jason: [00:43:11] Thanks everybody. This has been Remotely Interesting. We'll see you next time.¬†[00:43:17] Phil: [00:43:17] See you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye[00:43:24] Music: [00:43:24] [Outro music]¬†[00:43:31] Why is that so hard?[00:43:37] It was the worst day, by the way, I think it was¬†[00:43:39] Leslie: [00:43:39] the worst. Definitely.¬†[00:43:42] Amberley: [00:43:42] What, a way to kick off insulting your guests.¬†[00:43:47] Cassidy: [00:43:47] , that's what it's¬†[00:43:48] Leslie: [00:43:48] all about here.¬†[00:43:50] Phil: [00:43:50] This is just for Chris is a joy at the moment.
46:50 03/30/2021
014: The Jamstack Can Do That: It's Not That Dangerous to Go Alone
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.¬†People who were remotely interesting:¬† Ben Hong Cassidy Williams Ekene Eze Jason Lengstorf Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic In this episode, we talk about the importance of how good developer experience (DX) can play a critical role in helping developers build and share their applications with ease. We cover topics such as: What is DX & why does it matter? What is DX in the Jamstack? Tips for setting up a good DX workflow in the Jamstack TidBits & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹWhere is one place you refuse to go alone?As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.¬†
47:40 03/16/2021
013: How to Level Up - Dreams & Disasters
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.¬†People who were remotely interesting:¬† Ben Hong Cassidy Williams Jason Lengstorf Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic In this episode, we discuss our resolutions for the new year focusing on tech projects we plan to do and even NOT do. We'll throw in some resources that help us and some that we think may help you too! We do get a little sidetracked (shocking, I know) and talk about nose noises, the origins of phrases & species, foot taps, and oh so much more. New Laptop, New You? setting up your shell & environment making scripts for laptop setup start clean or stick with what you like oh aliases (Sarah's post on aliases) Resolutions Cassidy's nose plans Jason rebuilding in a Jamstack rabbit hole¬† Jamstack Explorers (post on how it's made) Cloudinary API for video stitching on the fly Tracking video progress with Hasura in the Jamstack Cassidy automating and improving workflows¬† Cassidy's Rendezvous with Cassidoo newsletter setup cloud sync etc. Tara's resolution to not work on things Phil's not going to tear down his blog and rebuild it, swear¬† Eleventy Zach is so threatening (ūüėČ) Permission to Learn or Not not feel guilty and working extra and not feel guilty to NOT work extra don't try to be the best just make it work there is skill in refactoring learning in a low-risk project learning in public and we all try to be an empathetic and humble community foot five & master chef elbow taps toe the line origin Personal ResolutionsBen's attempt to do more but say 'no' more¬† Building a Second Brain Commonplace book Strategies to Accomplish Goals 30 60 90 goal planning breaking down big plans The Practice by Seth Godin Focusing on the act of what you're doing instead of the outcome Cassidy's blogvent Tech Resources for Coding Resolutions Look into serverless (with Jason!) Jamstack Explorers Code Newbie #100DaysofCode and learning in public The Practice by Seth Godin don't be afraid to ship things git workflows and rollbacks! take the time to fix just one little thing a day TidBits & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹName one resolution that you've made more than once. Have you stuck to it? Have you never stuck to it?As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.¬†TRANSCRIPT:¬†
54:40 02/05/2021
012: Side Projects & Side Dishes
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.¬†People who were remotely interesting:¬† Ben Hong Cassidy Williams Jason Lengstorf Tara Z. Manicsic For this episode, we were in the holiday spirit and decided to talk about our side projects and side dishes! We have recipes for code, recipes for food, and recipes for disaster? Join us and see!Tara's Side Project & Side Dish¬†Phil Is Not Here!¬†¬† Gatsby,, Netlify ++ AACAC: Asian American Cultural Assoc. of Cincinnati (why couldn't Tara remember that) Headless CMSes & mixed experience teams Mac & Cheese forming humans into people you like go fat or go home what are roux doing? asks Jason Jason's Side Project & Side DishTries to make fun of PhilNext version of API powered by Hasura Serverless function top-layer A Toast-powered website gsap for color Everything currently lives in Sanity Hiring help where help is needed Discord servers Crab Salad Spring Roll side noodle notes: Shin Ramen, Paldo Rice Paper Summer rolls and us judging Jason Ben's Side Project & Side DishHarry Potter prepBen's own productivity system Vue3 Hasura Serverless Functions Groceries vs. Project Issues Todo lists or Jira-ing your life Someone please create the Productivity Type system Notion's API D3 for visualization Three.js 3d library Beat Saber but for tasks & exercising Bean Sprouts green onion, sesame oil and more? building things from the ground up Cassidy's Side Project & Side DishTries to make fun of PhilTodoMeter Electron React supabase DB Adding auth & using data so it's smarter than you supabase integrates with GoTrue & you don't have to refresh the page w new data Fancy Crackers tomatoes w olive oil and sea salt + manchego cheese + salami||chorizo a salt vessel cracker tech stack ?= snack stack shipping pork shanks & olive oil FUN FACT: Very little of the olive oil made in Italy is pure olive oil bc of processing. In Spain olive oil is way more regulated. DM Jason your feedback or orders for his secret olive oil TidBits & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹ¬†What food names should be the next JS libraries?Using blockchain for beef or Cowerncy or As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.¬†TRANSCRIPT:¬†¬†
52:52 01/12/2021
011: The Jamosphere - Lunch Money!
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.In this episode, we start diving into the awesomeness that is the Jamstack ecosystem, which we fondly refer to as The Jamosphere (cue cool, funky theme song). What better way to kick off this segment than with the Jamstack Conf Web App of the Year: Lunch Money! We were thrilled to have the brilliant solopreneur, engineer & designer of Lunch Money, Jen Yip, join us in discussing the creation of the app. We discuss the origin story, the tech timeline, tools Jen's built and were awe-struck by the mere fact that she actually carried out a side-project to its (successful) fruition. Like, what? People can do that?! Jokes aside, it was very inspiring to hear Jen's tech journey. We hope it inspires you too!People who were remotely interesting: Ben Hong Cassidy Williams Jason Lengstorf Phil Hawksworth Tara Z. Manicsic With Special Guest:Jen Yip!SHOW NOTES:What is Lunch Money a description from the creator herself a team on ONE The origin story Jen's blog post: "Life in Fukuoka: Building an app, freelancing, and living abroad" a need to track expenses while traveling a complex google sheet turned sparked the project lots of data and spreadsheets galore from side project to hacker news FP The Tech of Lunch Money picking a mix of familiar and new tech¬† Familiar: React w Node backend New: TypeScript & Semantic UI Flutter misstep & to mobile or not to mobile How do you manage ops? dunno (lol)¬†Heroku Third-party services & self-made tools¬† Stripe for billing In-house: trip campaign, referral program, gift cards, etc. a list of the features of Lunch Money Using the Jamstack Approach "Oh they call this the Jamstack" makes it easy to iterate, deploy, roll back, and hone in on issues In the Jamstack you can use APIs or build them yourself it's more about decoupling Decoupling & breaking things down to help manage them¬†splitting different tasks on separate servers The Ups & Downs Timezones!  ē„Éé‚ÄĘŠī•‚ÄĘ Ē„Éé ÔłĶ ‚ĒĽ‚ĒĀ‚ĒĽ seamless feature implementation thanks to good architecture The Future of Lunch Money solo or non-solo? hiring out contractors for OSS auxiliary features what features are next? month-to-month planning¬† e.g. more people needed bulk imports so CSV importing was prioritized a combo of what users want and what's best for the development of the project TidBits & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹIf you have an unlimited budget for just one category of spending, what would it be?As always, we hope you find it remotely interesting.TRANSCRIPT:
39:24 01/07/2021
010: Jamstack Explorers: The Guts
Welcome to Remotely Interesting brought to you by Netlify.People who were remotely interesting: Ben Hong Cassidy Williams Jason Lengstorf Phil Hawksworth Sarah Drasner Tara Z. Manicsic We just pulled an all-nighter to finish shipping you a free, open-source learning platform for the Jamstack and its surrounding ecosystem! What better time to record a podcast discussing all the technical details than when we're delirious and slap-happy?? In all honesty, we put a lot of work into this because we're so excited to get you resources and a place to level-up (to space!) your Jamstack brain matter : )SHOW NOTESWhat is it? How would you explain it to your parents? What are the missions?¬† Phil's Split Testing with Netlify Cassidy's Next.js from the Ground Up Tara's Angular in the Jamstack How are the mission videos? Missions to come The Tech How do we build something we can all maintain? Next.js for static site generation + more We need data: MDX for Sanity + Next¬† It's Open Source! Mob + Pair Coding¬†Remotely Interesting on this Cloudinary for automated video manipulation¬†Cloudinary proxy write-up A high-level overview of all these technologies Next On Netlify¬†It's open-source too! Sarah's thoughts on the flexibility of Sanity + a custom Cassidy bleep when Sarah swears (18:09 ūüėā) Phil's thoughts on the Sanity schema setup & using a decoupled CMS Collaborating and mental models with whimsical Serverless functions & SVG to streams to customized PDFs ‚ú®or ūüí£ Workflows and Mental Models Git workflow + incorporating new team members like the amazing Ben Hong! Learn with Jason As A Service (LAAS) Comparing libraries mental maps to contribute to new stacks Choosing things most people know instead of proprietary tech Team tenet: how to use tacos ūüĆģ TidBits & ThoughtThings‚ĄĘÔłŹ Would you spend a month in space?¬† Follow-up which space? Follow-up would still do it with this team? Le sigh TRANSCRIPT:Cassidy Williams: [00:00:00] Previously on¬†Remotely ¬†Interesting.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:00:03] I wanna chop a ham with an axe, that sounds fun.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to Remotely interesting.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:00:10] This is remotely interesting.¬†¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:00:12] that seems¬†a little presumptuous.¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:00:14] No, that's the¬†name of the show?Cassidy Williams: [00:00:23] hello everybody. We just made something. What?¬†we made a site¬†called JAMstack Explorer as it, as a learning platform. And we are so excited to be sharing with you today, how we built it, what it consists of, how much sleep we lost over it. We're very excited.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:00:43] Very excited. Yes. You that's exactly right.We're very sleep deprived, excited and giggly. So this will be a fantastic episode.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:00:55] Perfect.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:00:56] one of the things that I think is interesting is the fact that we have a bunch of people. So this is the DX team project at Netlify and we all are. Very, maybe even annoyingly passionate about educating people.We,¬†we really like helping¬†people and, I think all of us are excited to make a platform, to help people understand and learn about the JAMstack then, hope to cover this a lot of different areas. if you all, what's your way that you would describe the JAMstack explorers to your parents.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:01:30] I would¬†tell them it's a place where people can learn coding practices.I believe it at that,Jason Lengstorf: [00:01:43] I would probably say it's a groundbreaking new platform where you can take video based educational materials to bring your web development to a whole new level.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:01:57] Can I play Jason's mom and be like, Oh,Jason, you're brilliant¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:02:04] definitely has that Midwestern accent. So you nailed that.Sarah Drasner: [00:02:10] My parents still. I still don't think they understand what I do. Soyou can watch videos about the thing that I do that I'll try to explain again,Phil Hawksworth: [00:02:26] please stop me that I will just stop you right there. Sarah. We're not going to listen to anymore. Let alone watch videos when you're doing it.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:02:35] so yeah,¬†I think¬†though we did get the point across that we have a lot of video missions, that kind of leads you down the path of where you can watch a short ish snippet videos to get you to the end of your final mission of understanding things like split testing on Netlify and next JS and, angular.and we have to the amazing instructors here. Oh, threeSarah Drasner: [00:03:07] Oh, I should¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:03:10] leave that as.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:03:14] So Cassidy, what do you cover on your mission?¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:03:16] so mine is called next JS from the ground up and it's basically just covering the basics of next gen is what you need to know. And then going into detail on how to actually use some of the functions and methods and things that are built into next JS because yeah.If, reacts, chances are, you can pick up next Jess relatively quickly, but there are tiny little gotchas where you have to learn, okay, these are where my routes go. These are what page components are and that sort of thing. So it's going from the very basics, what you should know, here's how you use them and then setting them free to build whatever they want.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:03:50] And what about yours?¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:03:54] So I'm one of the, one of the things I like about this is that we decided that we would leave it quite broad so that we would have things that are specific to different technologies or libraries or frameworks, or it might be drilling down into certain aspects of JavaScript, but also using the Netlify platform.So I've done. a mission or a course on, achieving one particular goal using the Netlify platform. So I did, a mission on split testing. so that covers everything you need to do from doing your first deployment on Netlify setting things up. So deploy from, get building out, get. branch model, sorry, branch deploys.and then using those as the basis to do split testing and all the configuration along the way, and a few little kind of tricks. but it's hard to do all of that in five minute chapters. I know that we set ourselves a bit of a goal of keeping them not long and droney. Like this answer is turning into five within five I find that a little challenging, but it's a good discipline. How about, how did you find it? Terra? Where do you put for your course?¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:04:55] mine was perfect. I don't know. I fit everything in the time. I don't understand your problem. but we, we could, we could evolve it to, to tick talks instead of videos to really, 15NPM install¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:05:11] over three videos.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:05:14] Yeah. I definitely found it challenging to make it. Five minutes and less. I think one of fine made it to like a six minute Mark, but it was amusing because you know how, when you're recording something, you might mess up. And so you re say the same thing and stuff. I did that a lot and I definitely had one video that started as 15 minutes and I was worried.And then it was definitely down to three and I was like, that's humbling.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:05:40] So you have mine was on, angular and the JAMstack and it's, it's more along the lines of if you're comfortable with angular. even just on the beginning level, it's, starting to have you understand the JAMstack architecture, and get comfortable with, putting your project on a CDN using Netlify and also understanding what a CDN is.which is important. and then as well as pre rendering with the English static site generator Scully, and then, making login forms, having sign-in and OS with things like, Netlify forms and that live with Netlify identity widget. And, yeah, it's fun. Like after you've finished, three missions, you also get a certificate and it's a pretty nice looking certificate.I say, so myself,Sarah Drasner: [00:06:30] Yeah. And what's really exciting is that we're going to keep on releasing more courses too. So like every week or couple of weeks, you'll see a new course come out from us. And so you'll eventually see courses on Gatsby and on next and on view composition, API, and. Every manner, Netlify functions every manner of kind of different pieces of the JAMstack and different technologies too.that's really exciting¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:06:53] because I don't know if the audience has realized, but we have these, random people on our team named like Sarah dreads, man, Ben, Hong and Jason monk store that are like content pros. So we've got some good resources to dig into soon.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:07:11] That¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:07:11] makes me feel a little pressured to going into¬†it's¬†like everybody's sitting here going good.It was a little hard to make these courses, but don't worry. These courses are going¬†to come out.Phil Hawksworth: [00:07:25] Also you yourself just a minute ago, said every week we're going to be dropping new courses. So I think, that's a new course every week¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:07:33] Did anyone else's eyes bug¬†out of their head?Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:07:37] Cassidy left the podcast, as soon as she said that.But speaking of those three amazing people, they are behind a lot of the behind the scenes magic of how we create a JAMstack explorers. so I'd love to start dipping into the technology that we use to create this new learning platform in the Netlify community. so who, So who wants to talk about some of that technology?Phil Hawksworth: [00:08:06] I volunteered Jason.Jason Lengstorf: [00:08:10] I've been okay. I've been voluntold.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:08:14] You cut out after I volunteered. So I think¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:08:19] Jason, do you think it would be, I think it would be fun to hear about our, to talk through like how, next insanity are working and then go from there. Cause those are like the first big pieces that,¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:08:29] yeah. okay. So we, when we were trying to think of how to build this, we were trying to.Figure out, like how do we take a team full of people who are experts in different things? So like Ben and Sarah are really heavy in the view community and, terrorism, the angular community fills in web standards. Me and Cassidy are doing a lot of react. And so it was like, how do we build something that we can all.Maintain. And then we threw all that other window Cassidy and ice cream, the loudest. So we decided to build it in react.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:08:56] they just put a message in Slack that was like catch-up fools.¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:09:02] so Sarah's got a bunch of react experience. Tara's got a bunch of react experience. And so it was like very easy for us to say, okay, the majority of us are going to be able to hit the ground running.if we use react. And next has a really good story for static site generation and being able to use a framework, but get all the benefits of static sites. so then we were looking at alright, we need to get some data here. And sanity has got this super flexible schema story where you can start with an empty file and you say, I want this field and that field.And it's really customizable up to the point that you can invent stuff if you want. so with the two of those, we were able to use sanity's markdown input, which is a plugin they have. And we just went ahead and threw MDX into that with, with, we can add Custom components and stuff.And then on the next side, we grabbed a, an MDX, like MDX next adapter, and we're able to do statically re-hydrated. like the MDX comes in, renders on the page and then when it loads it hydrates and we've got this like fully. Dynamic, content all coming out of sanity, which is really nice little head bending.It's a nice¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:10:10] little headband. The Oliver brains are melted. From this project in the best way possible.¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:10:16] Eventually we're hoping to open source it so that people can actually see what we did build and how it's done so that people can check out the code themselves and do some like posts that show how it was all done so that we can walk people through how it was put together.And yeah,¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:10:33] there's so much good medic content in here because so many of the things that we did were word. Things that, you have to do all the time. And some of them were just very, how do we solve this problem? Like the video stuff. For example, we teamed up with Cloudinary and, we were able to record our videos, but like for a video to be good, you have to do you want like bumpers and like intros and title cards.And that can be a huge amount of video editing overhead. But because we were using Cloudinary, we got to use their API to Auto-generate our title cards and automatically insert bumpers and like countdown timers at the end and stuff. And all of that happened with these cool transitions and stuff through their API.Instead of us having to manually go through and add these to each one, which I don't even want to think about how many hours I would have been with like the last minute video changes we were making.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:11:23] Oh my goodness. And the best thing is like we would have JAMstack Explorer, meetings. We had, we did a lot of mob pair programming or is it mob?Just bomb pare,Sarah Drasner: [00:11:36] depending on¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:11:38] what should we have an episode on that you could listen to people saying correctly on like me, but we had a lot of those sessions on the team and I feel like a lot of them would be like, Oh, now we have to do this as videos and Jason being like cloud Mary can do that. Really?¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:11:52] Wow.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:11:53] That was such an eye opener.'cause I thought I had a fairly good understanding of what Cloudinary could do, but that was a real eye opener for me. Each time. we'd look at, Oh, how are we going to solve this particular problem? Or just make this easier. Jason would just crack his knuckles and go, I think you'll find we can just pass some parameters to Cloudinary and it'll happen by magic.And there's some clever stuff behind the scenes in Cloudinary that was really fun to explore. Yeah.¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:12:18] This is a little bit of a tangent, but didn't you just do something super cool with Cloudinary and Netlify redirects.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:12:23] But, yeah, I've been having fun with that just a bit, just because, Jason knew and I, did a bit of work together where we were trying to make it simple to, serve images from Cloudinary, without having to go through the process of uploading them first, just transforming the content that you have on your own site.So we're looking at building a build plugin and things like that. And then. It's just a really nice example of clouds and Rees API, where you can say to them, just by putting something in there in the URL, it'll say, okay, this is where the source image is. Get that for me. And then all the transformations that are done to that, you can send from your CDN and it just turns out that will, if it's just a URL, then we could do that with a Netlify redirect yeah, I, I did, made a little thing, which is. The two lines of redirect config that now clouds an area FYS, which is definitely, my, my side or any sites. so yeah, that's been really, that's another example of Cloudinary having a very slick interface that you can do powerful things yeah, I'm keen to go down the Cloudinary rabbit hole more and more as I discover stuff.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:13:25] So just one thing that I would like to do, is we're all extremely familiar with these technologies at this point, but just in case people aren't, can we give a quick description of each of them starting with Cloudinary?Sure.¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:13:38] Cloudinary is a, it's a like asset delivery software as a service platform. You upload images, videos. you really, you can put anything up there, but they're primarily focused on images and videos. and you can then using the URL or one of their SDKs apply transformations to it.So if you've got an image, you can say, I want the width to be this, and I want the quality to be adjusted. I want to change the format from JPEG to PNG or whatever. you put those into the URL and then they will generate that asset and serve it at a cache URL so that you can put that into your own site or as Phil did you put it behind a redirect and then it's still on your own site.and they have a bunch of other things they can do, but that's the elevator pitch¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:14:24] and then next, and we also use next on Netlify right? Yeah. Cassidy, would you like to give this a little, a very, infomercial spiel on,¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:14:34] are you tired of your standard static site generator?¬†yes is a, it's a react framework. And so it gives structures to your react applications. and it can either server-side render or statically generate. Sites with, with react. and what's cool about it is because you can do either or you have a very hybrid application and what's cool about the next on Netlify package, the NPM package.It allows you to use Netlify functions to do that kind of server side rendering stuff. So you can have even more flexibility in your applications while still having a powerful static site built with next JS.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:15:14] yeah, our team has been doing a lot of work on next time that with buy in it's open source.So if anybody wants to contribute, take a look at it. do we'll put the. Link to it in our show notes. speaking of we'll say this again, but explorers that is where this project actually exists. I always forget about that part, the information part. and then we also. I know we also worked with sanity IO, a headless we typically, I think we've covered what headless CMS is our before, but just in general, you're basically taking away. That, basically you're putting in data somewhere and they don't care how you use it. So you have the UI, your users are able to get the information in, and then it gets sent somewhere for the developers to use.But if you're just a content contributor, you don't need to know anything about that. You can just.¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:16:12] What I really liked about working with sanity was that everything was programmatically creating the, UI that you're using instead of globbing things together in a gooey that might be frustrating to piece together.I might come together in a way that you weren't expecting, or you can't really modify because you're programmatically connecting everything and defining these things. Schemas, you can also create custom validation. They have really nice validators to say, you just pass it in and say, minimum characters is this.Or, please don't let us up too much because it's so flexible too. You can we were hooking things up with serverless functions to, bring in content, which is super flexible. You can do whatever you want with it. And that's really one of the nicest. Pieces, especially because as you go into the dashboard guides you through different levels of the application.Like you can go several levels deep. If you're going through, like for instance, we have, our missions, which are the course and then the stages, which are the, each one of the videos, but for each stage you have a transcript. And things like that, and you can associate different relationships with instructors and things like that.So it's really flexible. And it's more on the Devery side in terms of setting things up, which I personally really liked because it, you can have that control over it.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:17:29] Yeah. I love the fact that the scheme is defined in code and that code lives in your repo. And we'd have conversations about how the scheme might.Might evolve over time and then it does. And it's, it's versioned in the repo. I really liked that. It reminds me a tiny bit of using Django and going through like migration, like database migrations and things like that as you evolve those, it just, I don't know, it feels really clear because you can see it in code says.Defined that way. yeah, that was lovely. That was the first time I'd really done very much with sanity other than just poking around and doing some hello world stuff and experimenting. And it's really nice to see how powerful it was and how, and how well it would work for us, but I just also really liked the model of a decoupled.CMS. I really like the fact that we, we've put all of this investment of effort in defining the schema and then evolving it and then populating content and, using next has worked out well for us. But if we, if halfway down the line, we decided that we would, if we'd been using a different tool, and said, Oh, actually we, this isn't going to do it for us.We could have been adopted next halfway through and not have to throw away all of the work in the background. I really liked the fact that, you're portable in that way into, you've got those two things living in different places. So you can switch out tools as they evolve over time.It's really nice kind of freedom. I think.¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:18:53] Absolutely. I like what I liked about it really is, when we first started this project, we had a big meeting where we talked through all of our ideas. And then we were all really confused because we didn't like we had all these ideas and we didn't know what to do with them.And so then we got into a whimsical document, which whimsical is like a, a collaborative whiteboard sort of deal. And we put all of our ideas on the board and then drag them into a shape. And then we were more or less able to just write that shape down as a Jason schema. And there's a little bit more too.It's not just Jason, but The mental model is there. if you go into sanity and you say, this is the schema of our thing, that's the thing. So we were able to translate our mess of ideas into a mind map and whimsical into an actual schema insanity. And it was easy to trace that kind of evolution over time.that part has been really nice. Like it, it felt a little less messy than trying to get into some of the other CMS where it's all point and click. Sarah said,¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:19:54] one of the other kind of interesting technologies we used with serverless functions to generate the certificate. So basically Taking a serverless function, putting in, programmatically creating it with SVG because you can change the names and the dates and things like that. And then using HTML to, to PDF, to take those, basically you're turning it into streams that you then turn into a PDF if it ends up being a little bit tough.Like it's one of those things where it. Doesn't end up being that much code, but the streams themselves are very, you have to work with them in a very particular order and type of way, otherwise everything kind of explodes. so it's at the end, you're like, wow, I spent a really long time writing six lines of code.¬†but it, it's fun because what you're doing is basically generating all of these things on the fly based on the date and the name of the person.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:20:47] I think another thing that was really interesting is, we definitely stuck to a lot of the get workflow. as far as, I think one of the big things for me that attracts me, that attracted me to the JAMstack architecture was the accessibility of a get workflow.Whereas like we're all on, let alone different time zones. so we'd be working at different times, but also Ben, you jumped in at the start of this project, re We didn't drown you.¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:21:13] but¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:21:14] I think at times¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:21:15] it, it¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:21:17] was amazing to see how you would, pick up issues, but, how do you feel like the workflow went for you coming into the team?Ben Hong: [00:21:23] Yeah, yeah, so that's some context I came in the middle where a lot of decisions had been made at this point. So I'm getting to see all these, like I'd never worked with sanity before never worked with next before. So it was definitely a very. Fire hose approach of like, all right, where can I, where's the smallest amount of contribution I can have to, I just start getting comfortable with things.and then just like just rinse and repeat until eventually, and, a big shout out to Jason for just being awesome at pair programming and helping to get, navigate me through a lot of the bigger pieces. Cause I don't think I would have solved the MDX in next problem by myself in a month.Sarah Drasner: [00:22:01] Looking like Ben's contribution graph. It's it looks like a launch of a project that goes¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:22:06] okay.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:22:11] Yeah, we definitely got¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:22:12] less¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:22:12] spoiled because we each, like either in multiples or one-on-one had our own personal learn with Jason's. Yeah.I feel like we need to sell that. We need to make that a product somehow.Divya Tagtachian: [00:22:34] So¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:22:34] do you think that, the, do you think that the fact that we use these various tools that you know, that many of them are, as a service or it's something that is, an open source tool, do you think that makes it easier for people to draw? I think it makes it easier for people to drop in.and arrive on a project and then pick some of these things up and have them be familiar. But Ben, as you mentioned, you hadn't used these things before, so I'm just wondering if it's just the model might be somewhat familiar or somewhat widespread now because of this kind of decoupled approach and you're consuming API APIs and then.Doing stuff with them. so did the model feel familiar even if the tools didn't or was that also what are they doing? Why are they doing it this way?¬†Ben Hong: [00:23:19] yeah, certainly, as 10 mentioned, so Sarah and I do a lot with the view community, so we've done a lot of work with NOx. So in that regard, A lot of mental models from next did at least partially migrate over to next because they have made some different decisions.but to Phil's point though, the mental models, as far as like gems, like API calls, that was, that did help me to just tread water as I was going through. Just feeling my way through things. but I do think that obviously with each new tool that has its standards, it can be intimidating for someone new because then it's like the Cloudinary, the several lists, the, this the, that, and it does feel like a I think. Before I joined, I knew that y'all were using sanity. So I tried to read all the stuff, but that's definitely not the way to go about it. just sitting with Jason for 30 minutes, it's already got me like just enough knowledge to be dangerous with sanity. Cause I wasn't architecting the whole thing from scratch, but it was like to understand where things were coming from and then getting that hands on experience is really what I think got me familiar.But, It's like a catch 22,¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:24:14] Ben was incredible. Like I've never seen anybody dive into a project with both feet and start running that fast. It was really incredible. but we also made some very specific architectural decisions at the beginning. Like for example, sanity has multiple ways that you can work with it.They have the graph QL approach, and then they have their own query language. And then they have a, like a markdown approach or they have their own I don't even know, markup schema that they use. And we very intentionally chose not to use the proprietary formats because it would be harder to ramp people up we wanted the things that people would know. We want to graph QL. We wanted Mark down things that you can find documentation and onboarding for. Outside of the company. and so I think that was a consideration, That, and honestly, I think if that hadn't been an option, we probably would have ended up using a different platform.Sarah Drasner: [00:25:05] Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely true. And I think like in terms of transferring things over from next to. next JS. I think Ben and I were in chat sometimes where we're like, this equals this, like¬†¬†getting the kind of mental model between the two things like, okay, if you, if we want it to do this in Knox.And even for some of the SVG, UI elements, like the tracker. I wrote it in view first and then transferred it over to react because it's just easier for me since I'm so fluent in view with while I'm building it, it's easier for me to think through it that way. And then it wasn't so hard.they transfer really directly, so it wasn't so hard to just transfer it over once. It was done. It's just whatever you're the most fluent in. But I think what's interesting about these technologies is that they are really comparable in a lot of ways. the, there's kind of one-to-one things, right?everybody has some concept of a loop. It just goes. It's different in each one. And so you can move things over. I don't know if Tara, you felt like that coming from English.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:26:05] there's so many things where it's just I know what I want to do. What's the name for it and next, or in react, And it's just it's definitely. I try. I think, I feel like I bring this up a lot, but it's just yeah, all the same concepts are there. We've just given them different names and small things are tweaked in the background to change it. But yeah, spot on. I totally did the same kind of logic puzzle.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:26:26] I definitely did that.Like with the responsive navbar I did it all in code pen first, and then I copied it over and¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:26:32] reacts a little bit.¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:26:34] Kopin is really good for that because you're not thinking about any other things. Dependencies, you're not, it allows you to think in kind of a sandbox of just what's the problem I'm trying to solve right now without anything.Yeah.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:26:46] So I think the biggest thing with our team is basically merging yourself into the ponds and uses of tacos. And I¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:26:55] have to say,¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:26:58] I think then. Fully succeeded off the charts with that. what more could you ask? Yeah, that¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:27:04] was a big part of his onboarding.¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:27:06] Yeah.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:27:08] Yes. If you all could see the Slack chat for this project and we would be very embarrassed.Divya Tagtachian: [00:27:14] I think¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:27:15] that's true across, I think that's actually true across a lot of Netlify. and. No, that's, I'm sure that's not a terribly negative thing to say. I was catching myself, but there is a lot of, there are lots of puns around, not just our team, they're all over the place and there's lots of food chatter.and there's a really, I wish I had the exact number, but it was something like 1100 and something or other, Important data that describes what it's like to be at Netlify 1100 and something or other custom emojis. That's true.¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:27:48] Let's do them are from¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:27:49] JasonPhil Hawksworth: [00:27:53] Jason's then¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:27:55] Lindsay too.¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:27:56] Since Lindsay has¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:27:57] joined the team, we have great next on Netlify coverage and lots of emojis,¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:28:02] which is what matters. Exactly.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:28:04] that was the whole job description. So I see no problem there. so yeah, I want to wrap this up today because we could talk about this for a very long time.And, we hope to in the future have on remotely interesting, like more in depth conversations on the different technologies we used in general because, we find them extremely interesting. and we would love to teach you about them or talk to you about them or over, but as always at the end of the mildly interesting, we ask the really hard hitting questions, and just try to dig in real seriously into topics.So I thought I would ask the team, would you go live in space for a month?¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:28:39] Would you go live in space or where¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:28:41] did that? Where it didn't. They.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:28:43] So when you sit, so I have a lot of questions about this.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:28:49] You've got 45 seconds just very quickly.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:28:52] Where in space are we living? Are we living on a space station or are we living on a planet or a moon?Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:28:58] So here's the thing I thought about it being like the Marsh habitation.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:29:04] Why is it, why was that in a Dutch Jackson?¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:29:08] I thought she was, I thought she was paying homage to, to serve Sean.¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:29:14] No,¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:29:14] I just couldn't open my mouth correctly. so yeah, I guess in my mind, I'm thinking more like interstellar.Space community.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:29:23] Okay. Yeah. Cause I'm thinking like, is it interstellar type or is it gravity or is it the Martian? there's a lot of movies where everything goes wrong and I want to know which center.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:29:33] Yeah, exactly.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:29:34] Yeah. It makes a difference.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:29:37] Okay. Yes,¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:29:38] Mars. Okay. So living on Mars for a month?¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:29:42] Yes or no?Technically. Okay, good. Yeah. Is¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:29:50] there wifi?is it, is this the Mars colony before or after Starlink starts working¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:29:59] there's¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:30:00] wifi, but it's, Phil's wifi,¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:30:02] my wifeBen Hong: [00:30:06] all the time.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:30:08] I love¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:30:09] it. I love it because. As she throws that insult spilled grows,I would live in space. Why now? I feel like you're not going to get on your death bed and regret that.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:30:24] Is it okay to any of you that maybe it's¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:30:26] all of your¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:30:27] wifi, a problem. And mine is fine.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:30:35] Another remotely interesting theme¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:30:37] is, feel sense that it's us, not his way.Phil Hawksworth: [00:30:44] I'm sorry. I've got to, I live in England. So we have the victim. We have Victorian wifi that was built by the Victorians.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:30:52] It runs on T¬†¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:30:54] I definitely would, by the way, I definitely to go. I don't like the idea of the journey there and back, because that might be a little bit more than a month, but the¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:31:03] month¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:31:05] the journey, but no a month there.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:31:09] Okay. So follow up then. Would you live on Mars for a month with this team? Yes, Cassidy left again. Cassie was just¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:31:19] so done with us.I would, it would have to be February. I have to be the shortest one.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:31:38] I totally would. If Jason had like unlimited cooking material, I think I would. Yeah.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:31:45] Yeah. Cause I, my hesitation with saying yes to any of this or the modern conveniences that have made me lazy, I really just, I want good food. I want to be able to play video games. I don't know if the ping would be really good on Mars.Jason Lengstorf: [00:32:01] Yeah. This is actually a really good point. What's the kitchen setup? what kind of oven do we have?¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:32:06] Yeah.¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:32:08] Okay, okay. So full scenario is like Mars, like from the movie. but it's America's test kitchen and we have, every source of. I said every source of animal byproducts. That's just weird.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:32:26] It sounds to me like what you're describing earth.Cassidy Williams: [00:32:30] Yeah. I'm gonna say no, I might be an odd one out, but I'm¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:32:34] saying this interaction.¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:32:36] No, in general or just no, not with the team.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:32:40] With this team, it's a, maybe depending on the resources that we have, but I would not go just by myself. I'd rather¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:32:48] have¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:32:49] gravity¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:32:50] that I say yes or no question¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:32:54] sensitive.Cassidy is tentative.¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:32:58] I don't know. Now that we'll put down Cassidy as question marks. All right, Joel, I think we're going to call that done because we could debate about outer space all day. so next time, make sure you tune in where we're going to have a really nice discussion about the JAMstack ecosystem with a special guest.more details on that soon. So make sure you Mark your calendars. Come hang out with us until then. I am Jason. Sparkly meteor, shower, Lang store.Ben Hong: [00:33:36] I am Ben the bean black hole.Phil Hawksworth: [00:33:44] I am Phil. Dark side of the moon. Hawksworth¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:33:48] I'm Sarah diggity, dark matter.Phil Hawksworth: [00:33:57] Happy Saturdays. Look how happy she is with dignity.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:34:04] And I am Tara mama Milky way. And the next¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:34:06] thingPhil Hawksworth: [00:34:14] we¬†Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:34:14] should be sleep deprived more often. And that's how I showed you. Oh no.¬†Phil Hawksworth: [00:34:20] Cause he's going to do one Cassidy. He's going to do, when she came back specifically,¬†Jason Lengstorf: [00:34:24] you need a name.¬†Cassidy Williams: [00:34:25] I'm Cassidy, Matt Damon Williams.Phil Hawksworth: [00:34:32] It was worth it.Divya Tagtachian: [00:34:36] I¬†Sarah Drasner: [00:34:36] don't know if people can tell that we're¬†Divya Tagtachian: [00:34:38] completely delirious.Tara Z. Manicsic: [00:34:45] Thank you all for joining us remotely andPhil Hawksworth: [00:34:51] is waving.
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