The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast

Cody C. Jensen is the CEO and Founder of Searchbloom, an award-winning search engine marketing firm specializing in local, national, and e-commerce SEO. Cody began his career at Google and later advanced through renowned digital marketing agencies, identifying a need for ethical, transparent strategies focused on ROI. Under his leadership, Searchbloom has built a reputation for delivering measurable results and maintaining a transparent, partner-centric approach. The agency’s commitment to excellence has earned numerous accolades, including recognition as one of Utah's fastest-growing companies by MountainWest Capital Network's Utah 100 in 2020.

3/12/25 • 20:14

Stewart Cohen is the Director and Photographer at SCPictures, a full-service production company catering to the advertising and marketing world. With a passion for the power of images and video in shaping brand identity, Stewart is known for capturing genuine moments from the viewer's perspective. Originally from Montreal, he pursued a career in photography and film after studying at the University of Texas in Austin. In 2019, Stewart expanded his creative reach by acquiring SuperStock, a media licensing house managing 25 million still and video assets, where he currently serves as CEO and Managing Partner. 

2/26/25 • 23:19

Irina Papuc is Co-founder and Managing Partner of Galactic Fed, a growth marketing agency specializing in strategic growth solutions for companies of all sizes. A CERN physics researcher turned digital marketer, Irina co-founded Galactic Fed to bring a scientific approach to the marketing agency world. With a passion for fostering a remote-first company culture that values independent thought, she has been instrumental in expanding the agency to a team of 120 members. Irina previously led SEO operations at Toptal and is the President and Co-founder of Galactic Good Foundation, which provides free digital marketing services to 501(c)(3) nonprofits.

2/14/25 • 22:18

Biz Hennigan is a Partner and General Manager at Superdigital, a creative agency known for shaping brand identities and producing engaging content for notable clients like Microsoft Xbox. With over 15 years of experience, Biz has leveraged her deep understanding of consumer behavior to achieve significant growth for Superdigital, including leading the agency's efforts in managing Xbox's global TikTok channel. She is known for her unique “anti-agency” approach, which focuses on strategic insight, agile creativity, and exceptional client service.

12/11/24 • 22:28

Tim Kelsey is the Managing Director of Pronto Marketing, a web development and marketing agency specializing in building, supporting, and promoting WordPress websites for small businesses. Over his 14-year tenure at Pronto, he has grown from an entry-level role in SEO to now overseeing a diverse team of over 90 members spanning Central and South America and Southeast Asia. With experience in customer service, strategic planning, and executive leadership, Tim leads with a strong focus on company culture and a commitment to empowering team success.

9/11/24 • 26:28

Marcel Petitpas is the CEO and Co-founder of Parakeeto, a consultancy dedicated to optimizing agency profitability. With roles such as Head Strategic Coach at Dan Martell and former COO at Gold Front, he leverages his experience as a strategic coach and consultant to aid agencies and SaaS in operational and profitability optimization. As a sought-after thought leader and host of the Agency Profit Podcast, Marcel shares actionable insights on service business mastery.

8/28/24 • 31:35

Leeann Leahy is the CEO of The VIA Agency, an independent creative agency based in Portland, Maine. With a background in account planning and strategy, Leeann transitioned into agency leadership, championing creativity, fun, and strategic thinking in her approach to advertising. Her commitment to innovation and employee engagement has propelled VIA to the forefront of the creative agency landscape. Recognized for fostering a vibrant culture, driving brand value, and nurturing talents, the agency has earned numerous accolades, including Ad Age's Best Place to Work and 2019 Small Agency of the Year.

7/31/24 • 32:00

Jason Therrien is the Founder and CEO of thunder::tech, an integrated marketing agency specializing in digital marketing, brand strategy, and advertising. Since 1997, he has been an entrepreneurial force in the Great Lakes region, creating impact as an investor, board member, and civic volunteer. His dedication to problem-solving and value-driven relationships has led thunder::tech to thrive for over 25 years. A proud John Carroll University graduate, Jason is a sought-after speaker on marketing trends and an active community volunteer serving on the boards of multiple nonprofits.

6/19/24 • 25:31

Sharon Toerek is the Owner and Founder of Toerek Law, where she dedicates her practice to advising independent marketing and creative services agencies on protecting and monetizing their intellectual capital. A marketing law attorney with extensive experience in copyright, trademark, and content protection, Sharon offers strategic counsel on licensing, brand protection, social media, and advertising compliance. She is a sought-after speaker at top industry events, including INBOUND, Content Marketing World, and MAGNET Global Agency Network, empowering professionals to recognize legal risks and uphold their rights. Recognized for her contributions, Sharon was inducted into The American Advertising Federation (AAF) Cleveland Hall of Fame in 2019, cementing her legacy as a trailblazer in legal advocacy and community leadership.

6/5/24 • 37:12

Jason Mitchell is the CEO and Co-founder of Movement Strategy, a forward-thinking social media marketing agency that began in his college dorm room. With expertise in emerging technologies and social platform trends, Jason guides his agency in leading social-centric branding initiatives for high-profile clients such as Netflix, Amazon, and Warner Brothers. Standout projects include branding for Yellowjackets and The Boys for Amazon Studios and the innovative launch of Looney Tunes on TikTok. Jason’s thought leadership extends to writing for prestigious publications such as Adweek and Ad Age, and he has been recognized as a top Metaverse advertising agency leader by Business Insider.

5/22/24 • 25:13

Luke Komiskey is the Founder and CEO of DataDrive, a consulting firm specializing in managed analytic services. With over a decade of experience, Luke has played a pivotal role in making data analytics more accessible to various businesses. Under his leadership, DataDrive has evolved into a global team of professionals supporting over 150 organizations, including healthcare, public education, manufacturing, and software. Luke’s approach emphasizes transforming data into actionable insights, helping organizations make faster and more informed decisions. His passion for simplifying complex data challenges has been central to DataDrive’s mission of fostering a data-informed society.

5/8/24 • 30:02

Jon Tsourakis is the Co-owner, President, and Chief Revenue Officer at Oyova, an agency offering integrated digital solutions such as app development, web design, and marketing to create efficient processes for company growth. Jon is a serial entrepreneur and marketing strategist whose continual study of brand identity, business communications, buyer behavior, sales conversion, and various digital marketing techniques keeps him astute to industry standards. His resumé includes executive positions with digital agencies including Innersight dZine Studio, REVOLT, and the Digital Mastermind Group, and his sales and leadership expertise led him to roles as Marketing Director and President for Astrum and CentralComp, respectively.

4/24/24 • 32:01

Matthew Connor, Founder and CEO of CyberLynx, began his programming career at 12 years old while working as a coder for his father’s company. His passion led him to develop his own company, which focuses on offering premium IT services and protecting growing businesses from ransomware. CyberLynx, previously known as Your IT Department, continues to provide cybersecurity and professional IT and support services for expanding companies.  In February 2023, Matthew launched The Cyber Business Podcast, where he features founders and entrepreneurs sharing inspiring stories. Matthew is on a mission to assist business leaders in increasing their profitability using cutting-edge technology. He served in the US Army for 17 years as a human intelligence officer and received his bachelor’s in business administration and management from the University of Maryland Global Campus.

4/10/24 • 33:53

Kevin Hourigan is the President of Spinutech, a full-service website design and digital marketing agency dedicated to developing customized and data-driven digital marketing solutions. Before merging his business with his current business partner, Kevin founded Bayshore Solutions, which he operated for over two decades. He’s been an active YPO member for over 12 years and serves as its Digital Marketing and Media Network Forum Officer.  In 2023, Kevin launched The Growth Fire Podcast, a business growth-focused medium where top business leaders share their experiences and insights. When Kevin is not leading his digital agency, he spends his time boating, skiing, golfing, and enjoying other outdoor activities.

3/27/24 • 46:54

Jon Morris is the Founder and CEO of Ramsay Innovations, which helps businesses quickly scale through financial education and strategic funds allocations. In September, Jon founded Fiscal Advocate, which specializes in helping marketing communication firms manage their finances, gain business insights, and grow revenue. Before joining Ramsay Innovations, Jon founded Rise Interactive, a full-service internet marketing agency — growing it from a $10,000 bootstrap business to one of the largest independent digital agencies. Jon is also an Advisor for Fiscal Advocate and was previously an Advisory Board Member at Pixability.

3/13/24 • 31:01

Jon Tsourakis is the Co-owner, President, and Chief Revenue Officer at Oyova, an agency offering integrated digital solutions such as app development, web design, and marketing to create efficient processes for company growth. Jon is a serial entrepreneur and marketing strategist whose continual study of brand identity, business communications, buyer behavior, sales conversion, and various digital marketing techniques keeps him astute to industry standards. His resumé includes executive positions with digital agencies including Innersight dZine Studio, REVOLT, and the Digital Mastermind Group, and his sales and leadership expertise led him to roles as Marketing Director and President for Astrum and CentralComp, respectively.

2/28/24 • 33:39

Vic Drabicky is the Founder and CEO of January Digital, a digital marketing agency and consulting firm focused on luxury, retail, and beauty. January Digital is dedicated to comprehensive digital planning and execution, encompassing paid search, paid social, programmatic media buying, and SEO. With a wealth of industry experience exceeding two decades, Vic has previously worked with renowned brands such as Nike, Neiman Marcus, Staples, and Michael Kors.

2/14/24 • 35:52

Michael Boychuk is the CCO and Co-founder of Little Hands of Stone, a creative agency and Ad Age Small Agency Newcomer of 2020. Michael has nearly 30 years of industry experience, working for notable firms like WongDoody, SK+G Advertising, and Leo Burnett. Before LHoS, Michael helped build Amazon’s D1 internal creative agency as the North American Executive Creative Director. He leveraged his talents and leadership expertise to spearhead four Super Bowl campaigns and the rebranding that shifted Amazon’s identity toward the globally-recognized standalone smile. Michael also helped launch Amazon’s first Prime Day global campaign — the largest annual worldwide retail event. Matt McCain is a Co-founder of Little Hands of Stone, an award-winning creative agency based in Seattle. Matt’s career began with WongDoody, where he spent 16 years and eventually became the Creative Director of the copywriting team. Before founding LHoS, Matt worked as a freelancer, offering his talents and expertise as a creative director and copywriter for prominent companies including REI, Hub Strategy & Communication, and Amazon.

1/31/24 • 43:14

Rob Kischuk is the Founder and CEO of Bellwood Labs, an on-demand software solution that helps companies develop software from concept to final product. In addition to his development skills, Rob is also a team and relationship builder. He was inspired to start Bellwood Labs to fill the gap between businesses' challenges, objectives, and software products. Rob is a three-time founder and CEO of software tools designed for marketers, including Converge and PerfectPost, and is a mentor at Techstars, a company helping startups with technology, scaling, and product management and strategy. He’s also shared his marketing and leadership skills as a member of Atlanta Interactive Marketing Association’s board of directors.

1/17/24 • 30:28

Rafi Arbel, President, Market JD (Chicago, IL)   Rafi Arbel is President at Market JD, an internet-based advertising that focuses its work on “increasing visibility” for small law firms specializing in personal injury and workers’ compensation cases. With the kind of clientele the agency serves, the written content has to be extremely precise and accurate. That’s why the firm currently employs 3 attorneys. Rafi is one of them.  The agency provides websites, search engine optimization, pay-per-click, reputation management, and content production. The work split is about 65% to 70% personal injury and 55% (overlapping) worker’s compensation legal firms. Rafi says, “Everybody can build a website and everybody can claim they do SEO or pay-per-click well.” Because this work is so labor-intensive and the details are numerous and critical, Rafi believes that those “who do it well” are not only those with knowledge, but those who have built a process to ensure consistent, high-quality outcomes. People have to know what they are doing, set an end objective, figure out the tasks to get it done, assess and respond to feedback, and do it “consistently over and over again.  Because Rafi practiced law for 6 years, he has represented people. Following a passion for selling and “engaging people,” he worked for Thompson Reuters and spent a number of years selling for Findlaw and Westlaw. Then, he went back for his MBA and again, and decided to change course, this time to become an entrepreneur. With this varied background and because he has been promoting small law firms for over 20 years, he understands what lawyers do, “how they do it, and how to position them.”  In this interview, Rafi notes how SEO has changed over the years, that searching for broadhead terms, “Chicago injury lawyer” or “Nevada workers’ compensation lawyer” renders a lot of paid ads at the top of the page so that even if a firm organically appears below that in the map section or even below that, the likelihood that SEO will produce much traffic is negligible. Or the firm’s won’t show well because Google’s Local Service ads take up the top of the page, followed by Google Ads below that. A big portion of the top of the screen gets taken up by all those paid ads . . . especially on mobile. So, broadhead SEO is not of great benefit to lawyers. What does work are longtail searches. Rafi says the great race now is to “capture the longtail searches’ to find “the corners that the big guys don’t see.”  As an example, Rafi talks about a Nevada client . . . a personal injury lawyer who, unlike his big competitors, does not have$40,000 or $50,000 a month to spend on SEO. What the attorney does have is a lot of experience representing people who have suffered sepsis and whose doctors failed to treat it correctly. Medical malpractice? Not many Nevada lawyers work in that area. By building comprehensive content to cover sepsis and medical malpractice, Market JD is carving out a unique niche for the lawyer’s business and building a moat around the lawyer’s business as well. Few competitors in that specific area will be willing to invest the resources to match this project. Rafi says the best way to contact him is to call him at: 312.970.9353 or email him at rafi@marketjd.com. (Market JD like Juris Doctor) ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I’m joined today by Rafi Arbel, President at Market JD based in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the podcast, Rafi. RAFI: Thank you, Rob. Nice to be here. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don’t you start off by telling us a little bit about Market JD, and what is the company’s superpower? What is your specialty? RAFI: Market JD is an internet-based advertising firm. We only work for small law firms. People think that we work for lawyers; it’s much narrower than that. We really don’t work for the big firms. They have their own marketing needs that are very different. We really focus on small law firms. We do everything that they need online to increase their visibility, which means we do websites, we do search engine optimization, pay-per-click, some reputation management, and of course, the content production. Your question was what is our superpower. What I have learned over the years is that everybody can build a website and everybody can claim they do SEO or pay-per-click well. What differentiates those who do it well from those who don’t is not just knowledge, but process. Because each of these things is so labor-intensive, and because there are so many details that have to get done right, you have to build a process behind every one of them. The process should really dictate the outcome. If you are making sure all of your t’s are crossed and i’s are dotted, then you should get a consistent, high-quality product every time, assuming you know what you’re doing. Over the years we’ve gotten feedback, like everybody else, of what works and what doesn’t work, and where Google has rewarded us and where Google hasn’t rewarded us. We’ve taken those lessons, and those have affected what we want in the sites and what we don’t want, and how our sites need to be built and the content that we need to create. Then we convert those objectives into tangible tasks that can be assigned to every person in the process. So, our superpower is our ability to take an end objective, figure out how to get it done, and then do it consistently over and over again. ROB: Got it. You mentioned smaller law firms. Are there any particular practice areas or geographies that you focus on? Are there any that you do not do from a practice area or geographic area? RAFI: Historically, we’ve focused primarily on workers’ compensation and personal injury law firms. I’d say 65% to 70% is personal injury, and probably overlapping, I’d say 55% workers’ comp, because some firms do both. But we have criminal law firms, divorce law firms, business law firms. Really, generally speaking, it’s a business-to-consumer law firm – those people who don’t just have a few big business clients that they get all their recurring work from. These are people that help the individual consumer, that constantly need a new flow of cases coming in. Those are the people that need us most. It’s not that we can’t help those that just need a law firm brochure, but what we’re really good at is improving somebody’s visibility, not just creating a brochure. We might be overkill if all you want is something that validates your existence. ROB: As a consumer, when you mention some of those practice areas, it certainly rings to me – my perception would be that that’s largely a reflection of the marketing budget of the different types of law firms. In other words, I certainly see a lot more personal injury and workers’ comp advertising than I see let’s say business law. Is that some of the alignment between your focus and the market? RAFI: Absolutely. Although I do find it a little – I don’t understand why some of the other practice areas don’t spend more. Yes, it is true that the potential payout for a personal injury lawyer is much greater. But what I will say is that I think the estate planners and a lot of the transactional attorneys that have the potential – or even maybe especially the civil litigation lawyers, they have potential to make a huge amount of money from a civil litigation case. If they’re representing the manufacturer that bet the business on litigation, the attorney’s fees can easily be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. So why those attorneys don’t want to spend a few grand a month to promote themselves is beyond me. But that’s beyond probably the scope of this conversation. At the end of the day, it’s really the personal injury lawyers who are spending and who are programmed and understand the need to spend to bring in a constant flow of high value cases. ROB: As someone representing smaller firms in this space, how do you think about tactically going to war and finding the client for some of these firms? I don’t even know, and you might know, what the national advertising budget is for some of the national firms, but it’s got to be quite something to go up against. How do you think about giving your client the edge and the best bang for their buck on somebody who can spend almost unlimited amounts of money on out-of-home advertising, on SEO, on pay-per-click, on all of your keywords? RAFI: That’s a really good question. We get this from time to time from personal injury or workers’ compensation lawyers who say just that. They say, “Look, in my marketplace there are four big competitors and they’re spending enormous money. They’ve got a 10-year lead on me. There’s no way I can compete, is there?” The truth is, they can compete. But we have to be careful in what we promote. Oftentimes when you start to dig a little deeper into their practice areas, you find that not all personal injury lawyers and not all workers’ compensation lawyers focus on the same things. For example, I have a client in Reno who has never really done any significant online advertising. He doesn’t have much of a presence now, and he doesn’t have an enormous budget to compete against the huge Nevada advertisers. And there are certainly people paying $40,000 or $50,000 a month on SEO. So, he asked me what we can do, and we had a conversation about the nature of his practice. It turns out that in Nevada, not many lawyers want medical malpractice cases. It turns out also that this particular lawyer had a lot of experience representing people who came down with sepsis where the doctors didn’t treat it correctly. That’s a very niche field. This is something he was very good at, had a lot of experience in, and very few people did, and cases that he wanted to attract. So, we decided to build out, and we’re in the process of finishing, a lot of content around sepsis and medical malpractice. And even if others come in to compete, they’re certainly not going to invest the same resources into that field as he will. We’ve already started to see some success with that, and leads are starting to come in the door. It’s that sort of focus on the client, the real micro focus on what they’re doing on a day-to-day basis. You have to understand their practice. I’m also a licensed lawyer in the state of Illinois, so I understand their practice in ways that somebody who’s not a lawyer may not understand. ROB: That experience you have as a lawyer, your licensing as a lawyer, is that what has kept your focus on law? Have you ever been tempted to – there’s other local advertisers, whether it’s air conditioning, basements, plumbers, etc., who have I think similar battles. What has kept you in the legal lane? RAFI: That’s a really good question. The truth is that I don’t bring a distinct competitive advantage outside of the law. If I were to go sell to a plastic surgeon – and they certainly have a lot of money to spend on their advertising – or sell to HVAC guys or plumbers or any of them, I don’t bring with me any inherent competitive advantages that my clients don’t have. Obviously, I know the technical end of it, and we have the coders and the designers and everything else, but so does everybody else. Only in the law do I really bring something that few other people, few other agencies have, and that’s an intimate knowledge of what they do, because I’ve been doing it for 20+ years. Because I’m a lawyer and I’ve represented people, I really understand what they do, how they do it, and how to position them. So yes, while it is tempting, and maybe I could make more money if I did websites for people other than lawyers, it’s just not my comfort zone. I really understand the law so well that it doesn’t make sense to do much else. ROB: Rafi, to understand a little bit – it’s not entirely a typical path. Most people don’t go to law school to start a digital agency. What is the origin story of Market JD? What took you out of the day to day practice of law? What made you want to learn and build a team around you that understands things like SEO and SEM and everything else you have to do to make things work? RAFI: That’s a really interesting question. I didn’t go directly from the practice of law into running an agency. I practiced law for about six years, and then I had a real desire to sell. I’ve always loved working with people, and I just love the selling process and I love engaging people. So, I took a job with Thompson Reuters and I sold for FindLaw and Westlaw for a number of years. Then I decided to go back and get my MBA, and then when I got my MBA, I decided I wanted to be an entrepreneur, and it was at that time that I started Market JD. We do largely the same things that my former employer does, FindLaw. We do the same sort of things that they do; we just like to think we do it better. ROB: Got it. So somewhere along the way, between some growing coincidence, between having practiced yourself, between competing in the market, you saw a set of ingredients, you made a little bit of a bet on yourself – and then who were your next coupe of hires? Who are the first couple of people that an attorney goes out and hires to build a firm like this? RAFI: I think if I could do it over again, the one thing that I would do differently is I would’ve hired more people quicker. I was a little too conservative in who I hired in the initial years, and potentially didn’t grow as fast as I could’ve if I had hired more staff. I think I wasn’t as confident as I am now in my ability to succeed. I was always worried that I would run out of money, and it never happened. I had more clients than I had necessarily people to do the work. So, I certainly would’ve hired people quicker. I think what happened was it was a lot of on-the-job training. I hired people as I saw the need. I knew I couldn’t design, and I knew nothing about design, and I knew nothing about coding. So I surrounded myself with the best people I can and the people I need to get the job done. It was need-based hiring.  ROB: Got it. That certainly becomes an interesting path. In terms of running out of money, I have done that; I don’t recommend it. It’s not the most fun. We did make all the money back and then some, so it’s okay. When you look at yourself now – you said you’ve learned a little bit about hiring more. Obviously, you can’t hire unlimited, so how do you think about, now, with experience in mind, when is the right time to hire? RAFI: I think that story has changed as the labor market has changed. At this point, where I find great talent in an area that I know I’m going to need, I hire for that even if I don’t necessarily have enough work to fill that person’s plate. It just so happens that when you hire great people, you find work to give them, and it’s often profitable work because when they’re good, it enhances your service and you tend to sell more of the things that you can do better. I think the question you asked me was, how do I know who to hire. I’m always looking. We recently hired a Head of SEO. I wasn’t initially planning on hiring her, but I did find an article that she had written, and I thought it was so well done and it was so technically complete that I reached out to her and I asked her if she’d be willing to do some consulting. One thing led to another, and she’s now our Head of SEO. So, it’s more about availability than it is about necessarily our needs. It’s becoming very hard to find the right people, and I know I’m not the only employer to say that. ROB: For sure. It’s hard to find the right people. It’s hard to find sometimes the sorts of versatile people who can and will wear multiple hats. I think that’s interesting; you’ve probably had some choices as you’ve grown. SEO probably has not been a choice. You’ve probably had to do that for a very long time. How have you considered, though, which service areas you should engage in? Are there some that you haven’t? Are you in television? Are you in out-of-home? How deep do you go in social? How do you think about those kinds of decisions? RAFI: The traditional media is not something I had experience in or knowledge in. I’ve thought many times about doing it, because oftentimes the people who sell traditional media add digital services to their menu of choices. So I’ve often thought of adding traditional media to my set of choices, but I haven’t, largely because it’s out of my comfort zone. I would have to bring in people, and I would be doing it just for the sake of growing. I have enough troubles in my life without taking on something that I don’t know particularly well, so I’ve chosen just to be a digital agency and do that better than my competitors. And I think it’s that laser focus and doing one thing well that’s been a great recipe for us. It’s worked for us. ROB: Sure. There’s a certain discipline to knowing what segment you play in. I’m sure many firms have started in the legal world, and many of them really have that appetite to go as far upmarket as they can, as fast as possible. They want to buy the side of every bus, the front of every billboard, all of those things. How do you think about what firm size is too big for Market JD right now? How do you think about that decision? RAFI: When it comes to digital advertising, I don’t think there is a firm that’s too big for us in our space. It’s when they have needs beyond that. Now, certainly we have partners we can bring in, but I don’t pretend to claim that they’re part of the Market JD business. They’re just our partners if they need them. But when it comes to digital advertising, this is what we do best. If the largest PI firm in America came to us, I don’t see any reason why we couldn’t help them with their needs. We represent people, or we do the digital advertising for solo practitioners, and we do it for 75-people personal injury firms, and everything in between. ROB: That’s certainly a range. Once you have 75 attorneys, I don’t want to pay those bills, I know that. That’s a sizable firm there. You mentioned a little bit about perhaps a desire to have hired a little quicker. As you think about other lessons you may have learned while building the firm, what might something else be that you wish you’d done differently if you could rewind the clock a little bit? RAFI: Yeah, definitely hiring quicker. Most certainly it would be also doing more internet marketing for Market JD. It was always ironic, I thought, that I’m selling lawyers internet marketing, but I’m not promoting my own wares on the internet. We ignored it because I had such a nice base of connections from my years working as a lawyer and my years selling as a salesman at Thompson Reuters. I had such a great base of people to call on that I really didn’t need to do a lot of internet advertising. In hindsight, I think that was a mistake. I probably would’ve more aggressively done it, and that’s what we’re just beginning to do now. But you know what? In some regards, I always thought it was better to have fewer clients and do a better job for fewer clients than it is to grow as fast as I can and see the quality diminish. I’ve seen too many of my competitors with fantastic salesforces, far better than anything I have, that win the business but don’t have the resources to put into each client, and the mistakes that they made were just embarrassing. I never wanted to be that guy, so I never wanted to grow any faster than I had the capacity to do a great job for them. ROB: Your team is so focused. When you’re out there marketing for these firms, you know who their ideal customer is; you’re thinking about how to reach them, and to a certain extent, it sounds like you’re intuitively selling to people you know, to people you know that you know, some referrals. What did it look like? Did you all actually sit down and formulate a picture of your customer and their journey separate from their customers and their journey? Or how did you get clarity on the target you are marketing to as a firm, how you reach them, and how you separate that from the everyday of working with all these other firms, knowing you’re trying to reach an individual consumer? RAFI: I think for every small business, to a large extent the direction of the business is set by the needs of the clients. So, if you listen to what the clients say and you really don’t just hear the words, but take it to heart, then their needs will dictate the services that you provide. We don’t just sell technical expertise or a set of tools or any particular solution. What we’re really trying to communicate to the lawyers we sell to is, tell us what your issues are, tell us what your end objectives are, and then let us work backwards and figure out the best way to address those and achieve those ends. I think if you listen to the client, they’ll help you. They’ll direct the solution because your solution will be based on their needs and their objectives. ROB: Rafi, now that you’re at the level you’re at, now that you’re looking ahead a little bit, what’s coming up for Market JD and the type of work that you do that’s exciting? What’s the next frontier, maybe the next place you think you might hire for that you don’t know yet you’re going to hire for? RAFI: I think we’re just in the initial stages of really expanding and taking what we do best, but doing it in a bigger way, hiring many more SEO content writers who can really focus in on longtail search. What’s happening in SEO is that when you run a search for the broadhead terms – “Chicago injury lawyer” or “Nevada workers’ compensation lawyer” – the search results are so dominated by paid ads at the top that even if you appear organically in the map section or beneath that, the probability of you getting much traffic or cases from appearing well there isn’t too great because you’ve got Google Local Service ads at the top and then you have Google Ads below it. It really takes up a significant portion of the top of the screen, especially on mobile. The SEO isn’t going to be of great benefit to the lawyers. But those same ads don’t always appear on the longtail searches, and there are so many of those longtail searches. So the great race right now – it’s no secret, but the great race is to capture the longtail searches, and the better we are at that, the better off our clients are going to be in the end, the more benefit we’re going to bring them. That’s the race these days, the longtail searches. ROB: That would seem to also align with maybe the capacity of the big firms that target those searches as well. There’s some stuff that’s longtail, they’re not going to have keywords targeted against it, they’re not going to be SEOing for it either. But you mentioned some of those niches that are special to the firm, that is an individual strength, particular types of cases, that then become the opportunity. RAFI: That’s exactly right. The corners that the big guys don’t see. ROB: Are you the only attorney in the firm at this point? RAFI: No. Actually, there are – let me see, three of us that I can think of right away. I’ve got to think through it, but we have at least three attorneys here, and two of them are editors. We’re very careful about what we write about on the law. We don’t ever want to misrepresent or get something wrong on the law, so I thought it would be a great idea to hire lawyers as editors. So two of my editors are in fact lawyers. ROB: Certainly, you get into some of these compliance areas, it certainly makes sense to have some expertise there. I think we’ve heard this a few times on the podcast – when it comes around the medical space, there’s a similar level of depth, attention, compliance, and danger that leads to specialization and helps keep any little upstart two-person shop in town from coming after you too hard. RAFI: That’s right. Really, for me, if I was just a general web shop, I could practice law and do better financially than I could if I were just selling to the local businesses. But it’s really the deep specialty that we have that allows us to serve the personal injury and workers’ comp lawyers in ways others can’t. ROB: Very interesting. We’ve been hiring in a bunch of states; I’ve learned a lot about workers’ comp that I didn’t want to know, but you might know better than that. [laughs] We use a PEO; we had the privilege of buying our own policy from the state of Ohio because they don’t like the PEO’s policy. Something new in every state. That’s you and your clients to figure out for the most part, I think. Unless there’s any other states you know we should really put our heads on the swivel for, because I’d be curious. RAFI: This is for your own company? ROB: Yeah. Are there any other states with really weird workers’ comp regimes? Because Ohio seems unique in its specialness. RAFI: [laughs] Most states have their own peculiarities, and it’s often changing, so I can’t claim I know every state’s. But yes, it’s definitely an area where there are differences between the states. ROB: Fascinating. A very interesting area, and it keeps some lawyers employed, for sure. Rafi, when people want to find you and find out more about Market JD, where should they go to find and connect with you? RAFI: The easiest way is pick up the phone and call me, (312) 970-9353, or they can email me at rafi@marketjd.com. That’s Market JD like Juris Doctor. ROB: Excellent. Good to have that. I encourage folks to find and connect with Rafi if you need some of their help. Other than that, Rafi, thank you so much for joining the podcast, for sharing your journey. We’re very grateful. Thank you. RAFI: Rob, thanks for having me. I appreciate being on. ROB: Excellent. Be well. RAFI: You too. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

6/16/22 • 28:06

Robin Raj, Founder and Executive Creative Director, Citizen Group (San Francisco, CA) Inspired by Marc Gobé’s book, Citizen Brand:  10 Commandments for Transforming Brand Culture in a Consumer Democracy, Robin Raj, Founder and Executive Creative Director at Citizen Group, started his agency in 2006 to work with entities committed to meaningful and measurable pro-social impact. His agency’s proposition is that organizations build brand value when they “walk their talk” and operate in ways that enhance society for their employees, shareholders, and consumers.  Robin notes that the rise of social media has created a window on organizational operations . . . companies have a harder time projecting a “corporate mirage” that “everything is okay” when people can now see what is going on, assess practices, and ask the tougher questions. Clients today include for-profit companies, nonprofit organizations, municipalities, cities, and trade associations. Working with Amnesty International and other NGOs while he was at Chiat/Day early in his career, Robin became aware of two operational economies: “the Moneyball ad world, where money is thrown around (half a million for a 30-second spot)” and the $15k budget for creating a nonprofit PSA environment. Gobé’s book identifies the trend toward citizen branding as a convergence between these two economies. At his agency’s inception, Robin worked with Walmart’s sustainability effort and explored how big-box retail stores needed to change their operational practices to support sustainability, creating “a race to the top for brands to reutilize, recycle, (and produce) less waste” and a model for future initiatives with other organizations. Brands get a lift from doing the right thing, he says, both for society and for the environment. In his early adulthood, Robin says he didn’t know that people had human rights. He says the 30 articulated in the United Nation’s post World War II Universal Declaration of Human Rights made a big impact on him. Citizen Group is involved in a diverse range of projects. It is working with: Sports apparel retailer Lids on a Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Initiative (They Gave Us Game) to recognize and honor early Black sports leagues.  A group called Leading Age on the Keep Leading Life campaign to showcase the variety of caregiving and expert services available to people who are aging. With close friend Jordan Harris, Robin shares a concern about the need to promote electric vehicles. Citizen Group commissioned a study to investigate the feasibility of shading California’s 4,000 mile aqueduct system with solar canopies to reduce evaporation, conserve water, reduce algal growth, and generate power. Annual water savings for a complete end-to-end system were estimated at 63 billion with the solar array along the aqueduct system’s existing utility corridors rather than taking up working land. A spinoff company, Solar AquaGrid, will be working Audubon Society to study environmental impacts and with the state and irrigation districts to plan the first demonstration project, and break ground on the pilot (proof-of-concept) project this fall. Robin can be found on his agency’s website at citizengroup.com. ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Robin Raj, Founder and Executive Creative Director at Citizen Group based in San Francisco, California, with some other fascinating interests as well. Welcome to the podcast, Robin. ROBIN: Good to be here, Rob. Thank you. ROB: Excellent to have you. Why don’t you start off by telling us about Citizen Group, and what is the firm’s superpower? What are you all known for? What do you do well? ROBIN: Well, I started Citizen Group in 2006, and it was really inspired by a book of the same name called Citizen Brand. This is where I can give a shout-out to an author by the name of Marc Gobé. I was really moved by the book, written in about 2003. The thesis of the book is: sooner or later, all brands will have to behave as citizen brands. That really caught me because it was like the spear in the chest moment in terms of the societal challenges we face and the responsibility brands and corporations and civil society have. It also predated, presaged, the rise of social media that has made the rise of citizen brands possible. We expect more from the brands we purchase and are loyal to. If they’re not walking their talk, it can be a liability versus when they can really take the initiative and operate in a way that enhances society for their employees, for their shareholders, for their consumers. Then that builds brand value. That was the proposition. So I started Citizen Brand, and we’ve been working since that time with a variety of entities, for-profit companies, nonprofit orgs, municipalities, cities, sometimes, trade associations. But what they all have in common is some commitment to have pro-social impact that is meaningful and measurable. ROB: Let’s pull into that a little bit. Give us maybe an example, if you can, of a client, of the sort of work you’ve done together, of what this looks like in action. ROBIN: Well, in the early going, roundabout 2005-2006, I had the opportunity to work with Walmart’s sustainability effort. Those were two words that didn’t necessarily go together at the time. It raised a lot of legitimate skepticism. But in fact, under the tenure of their CEO at the time, Lee Scott, they really saw the future as it pertains to big box retail and how they would have to change their practices, be it in terms of packaging, creating a packaging scorecard – they created more of a race to the top for brands to reutilize, recycle, less waste. And many other initiatives. In fact, they formed 13 sustainability committees in their transportation, their energy, their seafood. That’s been the model. I’ve also done a lot of work with what is now called the Great Sports Alliance, but it started with the nonprofit NRDC and the interest on the part of professional sports – the venues, the arenas, the teams – adopting sustainable practices, again, throughout their supply chain. Energy, waste, water, transportation, how they procure goods. That story needs to radiate through their internal supply chain to their external stakeholders to their consumers. So having meaningful initiatives that then you can start to develop stories that really show the impact and the lift that brands can get from doing the right thing – that’s the common denominator. And those were two stories, ongoing, that started around the time we started Citizen. ROB: That’s early, and I feel like some of that has not even arrived yet. Something I feel like we’re starting to hear a little bit about is measuring the environmental impact of a business and the different layers of measurement. You’re probably the expert on this and not me, but some people will say, “All of our power consumption is green energy.” It’s like, okay, but – you mentioned the supply chain, you mentioned suppliers, you mentioned up and down the organization. So outside of the stick that may be coming on that, whether it’s in public markets or whether it’s regulatory, how do you get businesses to think about the carrot when in their own initial reaction they might say, “We do the right things here,” and it’s true in maybe the first or second order effects, but when you get to the third order effects, there’s a lot more to work on? ROBIN: No doubt there is. And it can be challenging. But creating an initiative that you can build the sociopolitical will for, and then building on that, creates the momentum. Creating a coalition of the willing that this is the trajectory that the company or the organization wants to take is fundamental. And it’s not just environmental, by the way; it’s social impact, fundamentally. ROB: Yeah, which now we have acronyms around, again. But there’s a material difference, I think, between – you can check a box, you can have an ESG statement, you can have committees. It’s something else entirely, I think, to not just have a committee and to actually execute. How do you think about ensuring that those committees, that those initiatives have meat to them and are not just window dressing or greenwashing or whatever else we want to call it? ROBIN: So much of it is susceptible to greenwashing, and perception is a whole other thing in reality between half-empty and half-full. Walmart took a lot of spears early on, but people have seen the credibility that has come from meaningful adoption of practices. And it’s happening across the corporate world, albeit not fast enough. I’ll give you a case in point. There was a vote taken yesterday on compulsory board diversity – in other words, more women, more people of color on boards – struck down because, ironically, it was perceived as discriminatory. [laughs] Here in California, where we lead, we’ve gone in recent years from like 17% to some 30% women on corporate boards. That’s a good gain, but it ain’t anywhere near 50%. We’re a country that doesn’t like regulation. It’s something I struggle with a lot because we can talk a good game about law and order, but law and order requires rules of the road, and it requires a well-governed society to be a healthy, functional society. In the meantime, corporations run the roost. The common good is crippled under the weight of corporate good, which quickly can curdle into corporate bad. I’m talking about Big Oil, Big Ag, Big Tobacco, Big Plastic – something I’m very concerned about. That implicates Big Beverage, the Coca-Colas of the world, the plastic, the fossil fuel industry, that has a responsibility to take care of the crap they put out there. Not to mention the downstream health effects. So, you need to look at it all, and we don’t have claim to the answers writ large, but we take on initiatives where there’s bounds and outcomes that we can point to. ROB: Right. Sounds like you’ve got a lot of work to do, is what it sounds like. ROBIN: There’s no shortage of work for all of us to do. ROB: That’s right. ROBIN: I guess it may sound kind of schoolmarm-ish, but I really believe that – we talk about the experience economy and this and that economy; what we need right now is the responsibility economy. It’s time for grownups to be grown up. ROB: Robin, you did mention the genesis of the firm. Let’s talk for a moment, though, about the pre-genesis of the firm. How did you decide to start in the first place? You’ve mentioned the inspiration, you’ve mentioned the book, but what made you jump off the cliff and start Citizen Group in the first place, coming from where you were? It’s not always the easiest way to live. ROBIN: No, it was a reckoning, but it was a convergence that I’m really grateful for. My story was I came up as a copywriter, a writer. Came out of journalism, music. Went into advertising and had the privilege to work at some excellent shops – Hal Riney here in San Francisco and Chiat\Day. As a writer and creative director, learning the potency of storytelling, visually and verbally, in short form commercials, and even pre-internet, before we had branded content – but it was still getting you to read the printed page, telling a story on television. I had done a lot of work since the 1980s when I was in New York at Chiat\Day with Amnesty International, a leading human rights organization. I got exposed to Amnesty’s work because of the rock events they were putting on at the time – the likes of Springsteen and Sting and Peter Gabriel doing world tours, promoting this concept of human rights. As a twenty-something, I didn’t know from human rights that we have human rights, and there’s 30 of them that are articulated in the International (sic., Universal) Declaration of Human Rights created after World War II. It really struck me. I continued to do work on behalf of Amnesty and other NGOs, and I realized that two economies were operating. There was the Moneyball ad world, where money is thrown around. Half a million for a 30-second spot was not an uncommon thing at that time. And you might have $15k to put against creating a PSA on behalf of a nonprofit org. Really two different economies. And what was more important just didn’t follow in terms of where we place our value. The Citizen Brand book really said there’s a convergence going on here. Like I said, I had no idea that a few years later, the rise of social media would accelerate it to such a degree that companies had to walk their talk. They couldn’t simply put on a corporate mirage and pretend everything was okay; people were going to look more closely at their practices and interrogate, in a healthy way. And that created the impetus for what we see more of today. ROB: You’ve been doing this thing for a little while. What are some of the lessons you’ve learned in the process of building the firm? What are some things you might go back and tell yourself to do differently if you had that chance to talk to yourself? ROBIN: Lessons learned. I might’ve applied more focus to social impact earlier, even though I’ve been doing it for a while now. I think about years – I won’t say wasted. They were not wasted. Great experiences, and learning the craft of advertising is part of my skillset. But having the lightbulb go off sooner in terms of applying more of my working years to making a difference in terms of social outcome is something that if I could rewind the clock, I would put more years in that quadrant than the fun and games I had when I was youthful and indiscreet. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] You wouldn’t have been as youthful and indiscreet if you had done otherwise. But I hear you. There’s those corners we turn where we realize in some way or another – we get more serious; we discover a path that we can run well on, and we certainly wish we had found it sooner, had started that impact sooner, because we get so much better as we keep going. So I completely understand that. As we mentioned at the top, you are a man of many talents and many thoughts and many ideas. Something that I wasn’t really aware of that you mentioned was the Solar AquaGrid. Tell us about that. I don’t think those words naturally go together in most people’s minds, so unpack this for us. What’s going on here? It’s intriguing but momentarily confusing, and I think it’ll all make sense through your words. ROBIN: Yeah. One of my closest friends and dearest collaborators, Jordan Harris, we’ve done a lot of work together for Rock the Boat and other social causes in relation to promoting the rise of EVs, the EV revolution. It was his genesis – we both travel up and down the state, from Northern California to Southern California, seeing these open aqueducts that convey our water, and year on year, the increasing drought we have here in California. It got him scratching his head because he lives part of his time in France, where the canals are tree-shaded. They’re tree-lined and shaded canals, whereas here our canals are open and exposed, and we couldn’t help but think: how much water are we losing each year in terms of evaporative loss? Because heat rises. ROB: How much? ROBIN: Well, we commissioned a study. We started a project first at Citizen to commission a study. We sought out the best researchers we could find, and they’re based in UC Merced, which is the home of University of California- UC Solar and UC Water. We commissioned a study that said up to 63 billion gallons of water could be saved annually if all 4,000 miles of California’s canal system, aqueduct system, were covered with solar canopies. And many other compounding advantages, because when you cover the canals, you’re producing obviously clean energy, renewable energy that can be used locally by the communities. We’re going to need a lot more renewable energy on tap if we are going to shift towards an EV-driven economy. And then there’s the avoided land costs, because rather than taking working lands, farmlands, to put solar farms, solar arrays, why not have these existing aqueducts, these existing utility corridors do double duty for us? The more we got into it, we discovered that there can be reduced maintenance costs because the solar shade over the open canals, the open rivers, reduces aquatic weed growth. So there’s less dredging up of the algae underneath. And it has waterfall implications, rather than dumping more chemicals into the water. Long story not so short, one thing led to another and we started to examine holistically all of the potential advantages of such deployments. We developed a company, a spinoff that is called Solar AquaGrid, where we’re consulting with the state and working directly with irrigation districts – most notably with Turlock Irrigation District in the Central Valley – planning the first demonstration project. We were successful in getting state funds to do pilot. So we expect to break ground in the fall. I’m quite excited about that because now we can really put these premises to the test. The whole idea is to study in order to scale, because you only gain the advantages of this idea, a big idea, a rather obvious idea – we weren’t the first to come up with it – but now we’re on a path where we are very fortunate to be able to study and build on the findings. ROB: California is a big state, lots of people, lots of opinions; are there any particular groups you’re concerned about having concerns about this? Are there impacts on wildlife? Are there impacts on other things that people would worry about? It probably can be mitigated, probably a net positive, but what’s the group that’s going to fret about these? ROBIN: We talk about that a lot. We are inviting naysayers to come with their questions because the whole purpose is to interrogate this proposition and learn, where are there holes? We want to be mindful not to replace one problem and create others. That’s not our intention. We set Solar AquaGrid up as a for-benefit company that is predicated on public, private, academic cooperation. To that end, you raised the issue of wildlife; we have enlisted Audubon Society as a research partner because we do want to learn, what are the effects, the unforeseen potential consequences of covering large swaths of the canal? So we’re going to learn all this. If you want to do another podcast in about – call it 24 or 36 months, we’ll have more to talk about. ROB: That’ll be fascinating. The next thing that comes to my mind also is, you talked about France, you talked about their waterways. You get into some interesting questions. They have waterways. They’re tree-shaded, so you could cover them with solar panels, but the trees are going to make not as much solar. Is it potentially beneficial enough to where you take down trees to put the solar over it? Because the trees are there, they keep it shaded somewhat, but it’s still uncovered. It’s still evaporative. ROBIN: Beautiful. There’s beauty in complexity. These are the questions in terms of net positives and net losses regarding, in that case, biodiversity. By the way, we here in the U.S. are not the first to deploy solar arrays over canals. It was first done in Gujrat, India, where there are projects we’ve actually gone to school on and have learned from those past deployments – both what to do and what not to do. ROB: That’s fascinating. We have a business partner whose primary office is directly in Gujrat, so I am familiar with it. I have looked at it. In their case, they chose to set up there because what I’ve learned is that India’s all one time zone, and Gujrat is the farthest west you can get, just about, so you get the best overlap with the U.S. if you’re there. So that was interesting. We ended up alongside an outsource team, and then we started asking why they were there, and that turns out to be the why. ROBIN: I did not know that. That’s cool. ROB: I imagine the same thing applies to – I think China’s also on one time, so who knows where that leads. But speaking to your journey, speaking to Citizen Group, speaking to the type of work that you do – we’ve talked about some things already that you’re looking forward to, but what’s coming up for Citizen Group? What’s coming up for the type of work you do that is exciting for you? What else is next, beyond what we’ve already spoken about? ROBIN: It’s the range of projects, the diversity of them, that makes it fun. Challenging and fun. There’s so many ways to make impact, and there’s new ideas to think about every day. But one of the projects that has been exciting this spring is in the area of – it goes by another acronym, Diversity, Equity & Inclusion. The sports apparel retailer Lids has developed an initiative to recognize and honor the history of the early Black leagues: the Negro Baseball League, the original Harlem Globetrotters, what was called the Black Fives; before there was the NBA, there were the Black Fives. These were leagues and teams in the era of racial segregation. These are the players that invented the modern game. In fact, the name of the campaign that we’ve developed is called “They Gave Us Game.” It’s been a blast because I’m a sports fan, particularly basketball, and going back, the whole tree of influences in terms of – much like music, how every generation is influenced by the generation previous, and how the moves and skills developed in one era that proved successful and now you can see in the game of our players today. That’s been fun. So they’ve come up with this apparel collection called They Gave Us Game. We’ve also been working in the area of services for those among us who are aging. Which is all of us, right? But there are more Americans that are living longer, and as a result, there’s more services available that most of us don’t necessarily recognize the variety of caregiving and expert services. So we’ve been working with a group called Leading Age to create a campaign called Keep Leading Life that showcases the range of services available to people. ROB: Got it. We’ll look forward to those things as well. Robin, when people want to find and connect with you and Citizen Group, where should they go to find you? ROBIN: We have a website. It’s called citizengroup.com. ROB: That’s a good website. That’s easy to remember. Very appropriate. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, for all the work you’re doing for all of us, and for sharing a little bit about it along the way. Grateful to hear your journey. ROBIN: Thanks for your interest. It was fun talking to you. ROB: Excellent. Have a wonderful day. Take care. ROBIN: Take care. Thanks. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

6/9/22 • 30:04

Joe Soltis, CEO, ChoiceLocal (Cleveland, OH)   Joe Soltis is CEO at ChoiceLocal, which Joe describes as “the top performing franchise growth engine” with a “money back guarantee.” The agency offers a wide scope of services for franchisors and franchisees of over 50 brands, enabling them to provide “Fortune 500 level customer service, results, strategy, and ROI on the franchisee level” for a “small and medium size business price.”  Large clients might be parent companies of franchise systems, franchisors owning 20 or more franchise systems where each system may have from 20 to 200 franchisees – and up to as many as 6,000 internal franchise units. Small franchise systems may have 10 units. For these smaller clients, the agency facilitates franchise development, consumer, new customer, location, company, and digital talent recruitment marketing. Joe says hiring is a challenge, especially in the franchise space. The agency needs to understand its client’s hiring needs, the kind of candidates it desires, and the historical hire rates to know the number of applicants to target . . . then reverse engineer the hire rate/cost per quality candidate by channel and implement the most effective marketing strategy to ensure future growth. Joe says they use the same channels as they do for consumer marketing (in a different order), plus some that are recruitment specific. Joe notes that franchise operations need to beware . . . a lot of agencies will lock clients into proprietary technology solutions . . . that don’t fit. ChoiceLocal strives to find the right tools for each client to build a “win-win” ecosystem where franchisor, franchisee, and the agency all win. He says it’s important that the tool providers are companies sensitive to client needs, adaptable to a changing market, and willing to invest in “making sure that you can use their tool to provide the best in the world customer service to your end customers.” Joe started his career working his way up for 10 years in a company that grew to serve Fortune 500 companies. At a time of great personal loss, he changed the direction of his life. In his words, I always said I wanted to be successful so that I could help people, and that day it changed to “I don’t want to just build something; I want to help people and I want to do it now. I don’t want to be successful so that I can help people later. I want to do it now.” Joe started ChoiceLocal with the mission “to help others” – the agency’s franchisor and franchisee partners, agency teammates (to make their dreams and aspirations reality), and people in the community.  Joe structured the agency with the goal of having employees work their 40-hours, then “unplug and leave work at work.” With a teammate Net Promoter Score in the 70s (far exceeding the “good” score, which is in the 30s), the agency has been a Top Workplace in Northeast Ohio for the past five years. When Covid struck, the agency created a ChoiceLocal Economic Stimulus Package to help its customers “grow through the downturn,” an initiative that Joe estimates saved 30 franchisees from going out of business.  Giving back to the community is “baked into” the agency’s DNA, with 10% of profits dedicated to helping “kids in need.” Joe says the agency’s “big hairy audacious goal is to help 10,000 kids a year.” As of this interview, the agency had already helped 6,000 kids in 2022 through such things as meal programs, partnering with Habitat for Humanity to provide a home for an in-need family, and through team members’ personal volunteer work in the community. Joe says the next thing after achieving this goal would be to “raise the goal.” Recently, the agency spun off a dental franchise, Broadview Dental Group, which Joe targets to be “the largest provider of dental care in the United States within 10 years.” Expectations are that dentists following this franchise system “can have 4.5 times the profit of a typical dental practice and only have to work three days a week to do it.” In this franchise system, a dentist maintains 100% of the business’s equity and, on retirement, can sell the franchise. Joe can be reached on his agency’s website at choicelocal.com, by following ChoiceLocal on social media channels @ChoiceLocal, by following Joe on Twitter @helpothersjoe, or by connecting with him on LinkedIn.  ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Joe Soltis, CEO at ChoiceLocal based in Cleveland, Ohio. Welcome to the podcast, Joe. JOE: Rob, great to be with you today. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don’t you start off by telling us about ChoiceLocal? What is the firm’s specialty? What is your superpower? What are you known for? Hit us with it. JOE: We’re the top performing franchise growth engine. We work exclusively with franchisors and franchisees, and the reason we do that is we want to give Fortune 500 level customer service, results, strategy, and ROI, but we want to be able to do it when you look on the franchisee level at a small and medium size business price while delivering that. When we do that, we offer a money back guarantee. We’re the first and only franchise marketing agency to offer that money back guarantee. We work with 50+ brands. We’re one of the fastest growing companies in the U.S., members of the IFA, the whole nine yards.  ROB: Wow, congratulations. There’s a certain clarity to that that is certainly appreciated. Let’s peel it back just a layer. When we think about franchise, I think some of us think about restaurants, but there are franchises of all stripes. There is plumbing. There are franchise marketing agencies, for that matter. So what does a typical customer look like? Is there a particular range of franchises, of locations? Because you could have two or two thousand. What’s a typical engagement look like? JOE: We work with some franchise systems that are owned by what we would call a platform, like a parent company that owns franchise systems. There are some franchisors that we work with that actually own 20+ franchise systems, and within each of those franchise systems there can range anywhere between 20 franchisees on the small side and 200 on the large side. So, we’re talking within these companies 2,000-unit franchise operations, and some franchise systems that we work with even have 6,000+ franchise units within them. Also, on the other end of the spectrum, there are franchise systems that we work with that are 10-unit franchise systems. We power them on franchise development, we power them on consumer marketing and new customer marketing for their franchisees as well as their company and locations, and we also power their talent recruitment through digital marketing to drive highly qualified applicants. Staffing is obviously a huge challenge in today’s world, and particularly within the franchising space. ROB: That’s a little bit of a wider scope of services than I think we often hear in local marketing, especially once you get into the recruitment side. So that’s interesting. Is it the same channels for getting customers in and getting employees in? Is it different? What’s the mix of touchpoints there? JOE: It is the same channels, used in a different order, plus there are additional channels that are recruiting specific. Obviously, there’s different job boards that are highly important in the recruiting space, and then there’s also a whole host of digital channels that can be activated, from geotargeted Google Ads to Facebook advertising. Each of them has their strengths and their weaknesses. Our job within these franchise systems is to understand what their hiring needs are, who they’re looking to hire, what their historical hire rates are so we know how many applicants we need to drive, and then we can also reverse engineer the hire rate by channel, and then we can from there figure out their cost per quality applicant by channel and then develop a marketing mix that’s going to allow them to continue to grow. ROB: There’s a lot going on there. Over time we’ve seen different platforms that have tried to jump to the forefront to help, I think, organizations like ChoiceLocal, handle marketing for multilocation, for franchises. What’s the state of the tool ecosystem for this? Has any tool that tries to help with this problem and actually create a library of content to push out to different locations worked? Or has it not worked and you end up building some of those solutions yourselves? How do you look at dozens of locations, different local needs, some shared content, that sort of thing? JOE: There are a lot of agencies that will come in and sell franchise systems, their own proprietary tech in order to bring that about. What we’ve generally found is when these marketing agencies bring in their proprietary tech, it’s more in the agency’s interest and less in the interest of the franchisor and the franchisee. Essentially, it’s “Here, take this marketing solution. Take our proprietary tech, and then it’s impossible for you to leave us.” That’s how they set that up, and it can create some difficulty and a lot of angst within these different franchise systems. When working in the franchising space, what you need to do is build a win-win ecosystem where the franchisor wins, the franchisee wins, and as a byproduct of that, as the agency you win as well. There’s a whole host of various tools in this, from Rallio to WebPunch to SOCi. There’s a lot of others. Yext. These are all various powerful tools that can be used and deployed. There’s other powerful tools in the call tracking space, too. You have companies like CallRail who do a really strong job with this, with call analytics and those types of things. The job of the agency is to find the right tools that are right for that franchise system while also using their agency buying power to leverage economies of scale and do what’s in the best interest of their client partners. ROB: If I hear you correctly, there’s not a one-size-fits-all best franchise management tool. It is a little bit of a best of breed, it’s a what are the needs of your particular brand/set of stores, that kind of thing. Sometimes it is Yext, maybe sometimes you bring CallRail to the table. You’re the experts, and you’re prescribing the menu that you recommend. JOE: Yeah, that is right. One thing, too, as you follow these companies – depending on how much they’re investing in R&D, how much they’re willing to listen to their customer, how much they’re willing to allow their agency partners to fuel their product roadmap and guide their product roadmap – that’s really how you’re going to pick your partners, in large part. There’s a lot of these SaaS companies that are not very customer service minded. They’re more like “Get in, sign up for a product, and then leave us alone” kind of deal, and as an agency, that’s not the kind of partner you’re looking for. You’re looking for ones that will invest in making sure that you can use their tool to provide the best in the world customer service to your end customers. Why I say that is that’s something to look out for in the beginning. And the other reason I say that is the companies that are willing to invest in their customer service also tend to invest in their product development, and you’ll notice there’s ebbs and flows of who’s good and who’s bad when they do this. And things change, so you’ve got to find a partner that’s always looking to change and adapt with the market as it changes and evolves. ROB: It’s interesting how the cast of characters has changed. When I google for this problem space, Hootsuite is out there, Content and Sprout are out there contending for just a small slice of that franchise deal. But you know they’re chasing every other vertical in social as well. I can certainly appreciate – we’re in Atlanta; CallRail is a neighbor company here. Do you know their roots a little bit? It’s an interesting background on them. JOE: It’s a really neat company. ROB: The founder started off with a site to help people with BMWs that were out of warranty to find a local repair shop. My understanding is if you have a BMW that’s out of warranty, you need a local repair shop. That’s what I’ve heard. So, he started off doing lead gen for these local shops and then built call tracking to help prove the value of his BMWershops.com website, and ended up building CallRail from it. JOE: What’s neat about CallRail, too, is they really have come in – there’s a lot of companies that historically have played in that place, and they really trounced them. Some of their advanced features and some of their call analytics, listening to calls, transcribing calls, turning them into qualified leads, or basically saying what’s a qualified lead, what’s a hot lead, what’s not a lead, and how they built some of that technology – it’s pretty cool stuff. ROB: Yeah, there’s a tremendous customer focus there. I do want to shift gears for a moment; I want to get to the origin story of ChoiceLocal. What led you to create this firm? What led you to this point of focus, of all the areas you could have focused on helping and niches you could have served? JOE: I served at a company that served multibillion dollar companies. I was a Vice President of Operations of Product Development there. We served Fortune 500 companies – FedEx, CBS, other multibillion dollar publicly traded companies. That’s where I spent my day and that’s who I served. We built a team of 180 full-time digital marketers. Kind of a neat story. Started as employee #8, within a few years worked my way up to VP of Ops and Product Development and did that. It was cool. I learned a lot and I had some really great mentors while I was there. The owners there have done some really amazing things outside of agency, just building multimillion dollar companies and multibillion dollar companies and taking some of them public, like NCS Healthcare and others. So, I learned a ton while I was there over that 10-year period. Then in 2012, we had a pregnancy. Went into an ultrasound room with my wife and there was no heartbeat. So we lost our son, Ben, pretty late in the pregnancy. I always said I wanted to be successful so that I could help people, and that day it changed to “I don’t want to just build something; I want to help people and I want to do it now. I don’t want to be successful so that I can help people later. I want to do it now.” That’s actually how ChoiceLocal got started. In its simple form, our mission always has been – our mission and our core values were written prior to even having a business plan – our mission is help others. We help our partners succeed, our franchisor and franchisee partners, help their dreams and aspirations become a reality. We help our teammates’ dreams and aspirations become a reality. We’ve been a Top Workplace in Northeast Ohio five years running. We have a teammate Net Promoter Score in the 70s, which is unheard of high. You ask people, “What is a good employee Net Promoter Score?”, the answer is 30. We’re hanging out in the 70s. So, we really work to live that mission and really care about others. Working in the agency space, a lot of agencies will bring in talent, they will work them like crazy for like five years until they burn out, and then they leave and they go in-house. Having experienced that and have friends who’ve experienced that in other companies, I wanted to do something fundamentally different. That’s why we founded ChoiceLocal and built it the way that we have. But our mission of help others is also giving back. We take 10% of the profits out of the company and we use it to help kids in need. Our big hairy audacious goal is to help 10,000 kids a year. We created the Benjamin Isaac Foundation, named after our son, Ben. We just gave a home to a single mother with three kids. Her name is Brie; she’s got three beautiful boys. We just had their house dedication two weekends ago, and that was through Habitat for Humanity. We were the sole sponsor for the home. Got to meet her beautiful boys. We helped them move in, had the housewarming and a dedication. It was so cool. It’s just so cool. We do tons of other stuff like that. So far this year – it’s now June, and we are at a little over 6,000 kids that we’ve helped through various charities that we partner with. ROB: Well, 4,000 more to go and then another goal. JOE: Yes, raise the goal. ROB: There’s a depth in that origin story. I think something that is interesting to think through – when you have a team, when you’re giving to causes, how do you connect the day-to-day of what the team is doing to the causes that the company is giving to and really ensure that there’s an authentic connection there? I think it can be very disconnected sometimes. Here’s the owner, here’s the team, we’re building this stuff, some money got shot out over here – to a good cause, but maybe it doesn’t feel relevant to the day-to-day. So how do you think about connecting the team to the cause? JOE: That’s a great question. It’s a really great question. The first thing is we hire for people that have the core values that we have. Family, giving, integrity in all things. There’s certain ways that you can interview people to make sure that they have those. And if you actually study some of the psychology behind it, if you study various hiring techniques that are used in books like Topgrading and WHO and those types of things, there’s ways you can interview for those core values and competencies to screen people out that don’t have that. So, you’re hiring people that believe what you believe and then you’re coming into a culture that celebrates those core values and celebrates those things. For example, we have a team meeting every single month where we update on everything that’s happening in the agency, what’s going on with business strategy. We’re transparent on financials and performance and all of those things so everybody can see what’s going on. We have a part where we talk about help others and core values. In core values, people nominate teammates and they celebrate how they live those core values out, and we tell those stories. A lot of those core values are how we help our partners and internally, but it’s also how we give back. And then we tie in our financial performance. We then say, “Because we were able to do this, we were able to give Brie and her three boys this gift.” We make it very personal. Along those lines, we also have quarterly volunteering. We try to get every teammate to volunteer once a quarter so they can see, feel, and touch the work they’re doing. My personal favorite is when we go to the Boys and Girls Club of America. Those kids need love, they need support, they need good mentors, and when you go there, you feel fantastic afterwards because you’ve been able to deliver some of that for them. So that’s really powerful. And then we also do this BHAG walkthrough. BHAG stands for big hairy audacious goal. We have this roadmap, and then we say, “Here’s three kids that were helped because of this. Here’s 1,600 kids that were fed for a year in a place of education.” We did this charity giveaway through our annual thing at the International Franchise Association called the ChoiceLocal 10k Charity Giveaway. People enter a drawing giveaway. There’s a really cool story – there’s a woman who served as a board member of the International Franchise Association; today she owns about 20 Taco Johns franchises. Very successful businesswomen. She picked the Great Harvest Heartland as her charity, and she ended up winning. What I found out after she won is that as a kid, she was so poor that she needed to go to the foodbank to eat. So, it was a very personal gift for her. That’s the type of stuff that really hits home, when you always tie it to that personal story. And then when you say, “Because you were able to do this specifically,” and you name the person, “it allowed us to be able to do this.” Sorry, I’m passionate about this – the last thing I’ll add to it is helping the business owner. This particular franchisee is having a really hard time and they’re on the verge of going out of business. We had a good amount of this through COVID. We announced the ChoiceLocal Economic Stimulus Package for our customers. We have this whole “grow through the downturn” quarterly priority and theme. We saved probably 30 franchisees from going out of business during COVID, and that was really cool. We celebrated each one of those as a company during the team meetings and made a really big deal out of it, because it’s a huge deal. They put their life savings into the business. Together, we helped save their business. That’s flipping awesome. It’s really cool. ROB: What an opportunity. I hear a certain proximity that you’re referring to within the team. Is all of your team right there, one office, one team? Is that your world, or are people in different places? JOE: It used to be that way, pre-COVID. We were in the office three days a week, and Monday/Friday work from home. COVID hit and we went 100% remote. Then we had highest teammate Net Promoter Score ever, highest client Net Promoter Score ever, highest revenue ever by far, highest profit dollars. We’re like, this is working really well. So we surveyed our team and said, “What do you guys want to do?” and everybody said basically, work from home, come into the office once. So, we instituted that. What we then found is about 10-15% of our staff in a given week would come into the office, and they’d come in on different days, and when they came in there was like 3% of our staff there. It felt a little lonely, and some people like that connectedness. So I just met with our leadership team on this this past week; we’re probably going to be instituting now – we do a lot of stuff on Slack. I know a lot of companies do. Basically, we’re going to have ChoiceLocal In-Office Day. It’s going to be completely optional, but everybody that’s going to go is going to go into Slack, fill out this poll, and RSVP and say “Hey, I’m going to be in the office this day” and try to get other teammates to come in. And then they’re going to have a group of probably 30-40% of the company in on that individual day, and they can hang out together. Plus we do all the fun stuff. We have team meets once a month. Those are in person. About half the company comes to those; the rest are virtual. We bring in catered food. We’re in Cleveland, so we’re going to watch a Cleveland Guardians, which used to be the Cleveland Indians, game. ROB: Yeah, that’s an adjustment there as well. JOE: Stuff like that. We do Topgolf. We do a big Christmas party every year. Stuff like that. It’s fun. It’s so fun. ROB: It sounds like an adjustment, but it sounds like listening to the team, it sounds like adjusting well. When I think about folks I’ve known in the agency world in Cleveland, there’s no shortage of opportunity to lose your team to the revolving door of brands. That seems like it’s probably the way of life there – not to mention the regional opportunities with vendors. It really does take some work to keep them on the agency side, I think. JOE: Historically, at my prior agency that was definitely a continual challenge. We launched ChoiceLocal with the mission of help others, with the goal – we’re not perfect at this; I don’t want to sugarcoat it – but with the goal of being a fast-paced, high energy environment, but you work 40 hours, then you unplug and you leave work at work. We were able to build our systems so that’s possible. We historically have had almost no turnover. Now, with that said, this year during COVID, our turnover rate has spiked a bit, but it’s nothing like I was ever used to. In a year we would have maybe, out of 100 people, like 1 to 2 people leave that we didn’t want to leave. Historically. This year that number is probably up to like 4 out of 100. ROB: Yeah, that’s turnover, but it’s not a high turnover rate. It is managing what it is. It sounds like you have learned a lot along the way. As you think about lessons you’ve learned building ChoiceLocal, are there particular things you think of that you would wish to go back and tell yourself to do differently if you were able to? JOE: There’s a whole host of things. One of the things I have as an advantage is I was a political science major, and I learned absolutely nothing in college that is useful to me today. [laughs] ROB: A beginner’s mindset is what you’re saying. [laughs] JOE: Yeah, exactly. There’s this book called All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten, and there’s so much truth to that. I was raised treat others the way you want to be treated, and that’s how I’ve always operated. I’ve always brought that to what I do because I thought it’s the right thing to do. But I’ve actually found it’s an amazingly sound business strategy. What I’m going to say now may be a little bit controversial, but there’s so much stuff that you learn in business school, like when you’re getting your MBA and those types of things, and so much of that you need to throw out and ignore because it’s trash. For example, you’re a service-based business, so a person is not a commodity. A person is not a tool to be used. A person is not a KPI. They are a person with dignity, a person who has a family, a person who deserves to be cared about, loved, and appreciated. If you just do that and focus on that first, the business results tend to take care of themselves. But at the same point, KPIs are important. Accountability is important. Ensuring that you have that is critical. Knowing that you hire right for core values first and for performance second, but also critically important – all of that integrates really well, and those are really important things. The last thing, from a mistake that I made, that I’ll say is there’s a book called Multipliers: How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Else Smarter, and basically the premise of the book – and this happens for a lot of folks in agencies, particularly in leadership positions – how did you get successful? You got successful by busting your butt and being pretty smart about the way you do things. That’s how you were successful. The weakness that comes with that is as you get a bigger team, you need to shut up, you need to ask questions, and you need to be humble. That’s the next level. And that book, for me, as I was evolving and growing as a leader, taught me those skills. It played a really important role, and now it’s something I believe in so strongly. I met with a future VP of our organization who’s probably going to get promoted to a VP very, very shortly, and I said, “Read this book. Take it to heart and do it.” Then I said, “Here’s all the stupid things that I did, and here’s how this book helped me.” ROB: You start to pull apart some pieces, many questions come to mind. I start to think about – clearly, when you talk about future VP, there’s some planning there. There’s still some awareness of individuals in your organization, even though at 100 people, it starts to get hard to know everyone. Especially when some people aren’t even coming in one day a week, possibly. It’s an interesting mix. I think this probably had to be intentional for you as well – building up the leadership team. What are the pieces you’ve put in place at different stages in the business to build around you to be your best, but also to help the company be its best, maybe where you aren’t? JOE: Hire generous people, people that love helping other people be successful. If you have people on your leadership team that don’t believe that, don’t have them on your leadership team. And if you don’t believe that, work on it. [laughs] It’s so critical. You need to hire generous people, surround yourself with generous people. It’s funny; I was like, we’re the world’s best at marketing for franchise systems, world’s best at franchise development, consumer marketing for franchising; we’re the world’s best at recruiting for franchise systems. Why don’t we just own a franchise system? So, we launched a separate franchise system, hired a guy who led another franchise system to $750 million in network revenue to be the CEO of it. And he believes what we believe. What attracted him to us first and foremost – and he’s got an amazing track record in franchising – was our values. He’s a generous person. He believes in integrity. He believes in accountability and performance at the same time. So, you’ve got to find people that believe that and have those competencies. The other thing I’ll say is it’s important, if you’re hiring somebody to lead a business, that they understand that business. You can do it and you can be successful if you don’t understand it inside and out, but it’s way harder. If you can find people with the right values but also who have worked at different levels in that industry over the course of their career, they can understand the strengths and weaknesses of various decisions, and when you make a decision, how it affects people in different parts of the organization or what you’re actually asking and what it entails to make it happen. Which tends to result in better decisions being made, better business performance, less mistakes. Those are the types of things that you really look for. ROB: What franchise business have you got yourself into, then, now? JOE: The name of it is Broadview Dental Group. Our vision is to be the largest provider of dental care in the United States within 10 years. We have some aggressive plans, but I am very confident that we’re going to be able to pull it off. ROB: And I’ve heard that some different models of roll-up franchise operating groups – I’ve heard they’re taking the dental world kind of by storm. The independent dentist is starting to dry up a little bit. Are you seeing that? Is that part of the move? JOE: Yes, it is, and it’s sad. What’s ended up happening – there actually is one other franchise system in the dental space. I wouldn’t call it a real franchise system. That sounds arrogant. I don’t mean it that way. But if you look at how franchise systems typically operate, where they basically have some sort of buy-in and then some sort of royalty, it’s set up very different with the buy-in being extremely, extremely, extremely high. It’s different. But if you look at most of them, they’re called DSOs or DPOs, and what they basically do is a dentist is like “Hey, I want to get my practice to the next level.” Then these DSOs or DPOs, which are typically funded by venture capital – this isn’t always the case, but typically with venture capital, they care about one thing, which is maximizing shareholder wealth. They’ll say, “Okay, you want to take your business to the next level? Sign here. We get 70% equity in your business up to 90% over time, and we can fire you if we want to, and we’ll help get your business to the next level.” When you’re a dentist and you’re passionate about helping others and you’re passionate about your practice and your trade, you basically just need a really good business mentor, and most dentists really haven’t had it. So what we’re doing is giving them 100% equity in their own business, a way to get to the point where they can have 4.5 times the profit of a typical dental practice and only have to work three days a week to do it, and all they need to do is follow our system. And they own 100% of their business. They can sell it when they want to, and when they sell it, they’ll sell it for a higher multiple because guess what? In franchising, when you sell your business when you’re ready to retire, it’s worth more because it’s a franchise system and it’s proven. There’s less risk involved. ROB: Right, it’s not (Your Name) Dentistry. It is part of an umbrella. There’s brand equity there, there’s a system. They don’t have to figure it all out. One of my college roommates, his dad was in the dental world, and when you mentioned the high fee to buy in – he always told me dentists like to buy expensive things, so I guess the franchise must be one of those things, just priced for the market, I suppose. When we look ahead to what’s next for ChoiceLocal, what’s next for marketing in the franchising world, Joe, what are you seeing? What are you excited about for the firm, for what is going to be necessary for your clients to continue as the marketing world evolves? What are you seeing? JOE: There’s so much exciting growth ahead. One of the things that I love about being an agency that focuses on ROI and provable results is every time there’s an economic downturn, it’s good for the agency growth and it’s good for your customers. What happens is when there’s an economic recession, which I believe we’re headed into – we have horrible inflation and there’s certain policies that have to be implemented to bring it under control, and the result of that is going to be a recession. What happens in those cases is companies tend to pull back in marketing. But if you’re driving marketing where for every dollar they spend, you’re giving them $18 in new customer revenue, it’s stupid not to spend that. You can grow through the downturn. You can take market share. Imagine putting a dollar in the stock market and getting $18 back within a year. It’s a brilliant investment. It’s a simple investment. So, what’s going to end up happening is that’s going to accelerate growth within agencies that are ROI-focused as this economic recession hits, and for however long it hits for. That’s exciting. But what I’m also excited about in the newer leading-edge things within agencies is the ability for big data backed with artificial intelligence to transform marketing, to transform business, and frankly to transform medicine. I was talking with the COO of ChoiceLocal, who serves a role with Broadview as well, and we’re like, who ever thought that two internet marketers would fundamentally change healthcare and dental care in the U.S.? You’d be like, “Explain that.” It’s the same thing you do in marketing with big data. If you have a massive amount of data in a HIPAA compliant way, you can anonymize it, data mine it, and find correlations and causations and literally, with that type of patient data pool, you can change medicine. Similarly, you can do the same thing with marketing, where you can data mine, you can find ways to micro-target ideal customers based on who current ideal customers are – and you may not even know what some of those things are – and then you can target them and measure the performance and lift. That’s crazy cool stuff. And that’s the newer leading-edge stuff that’s really exciting, particularly when you’re dealing with franchise systems and the volume that’s behind that. ROB: Right. You’ve got volume there, you’ve got a growing scale in the business. To think about leveraging it for more than just “Hey, we’re bigger” – lots of interesting things there. Joe, when people want to find and connect with you and with ChoiceLocal, where should they go to find you? JOE: They can go to choicelocal.com. Everything is there. They can follow ChoiceLocal on pretty much every social media channel that exists @ChoiceLocal. So they can do that. They can follow me personally on Twitter @helpothersjoe or connect with me on LinkedIn. I try to post a lot of content there that’s specific to purpose-driven business, which is a huge passion of mine, as well as franchising and marketing as well. So yeah, @helpothersjoe on Twitter is for me personally. ROB: That’s excellent. Joe, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Congratulations on what you’ve built so far and why you’re building it. I think everyone listening has enjoyed the depth in the origin of the business and the intentionality as you build it. JOE: Thanks, Rob. Thanks for all you’ve done and thanks for having me on today. It really is a great pleasure. Really appreciate you. ROB: All right, appreciate you. Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

6/8/22 • 34:09

Susan Britton, Owner/ Principal Creative Director, Britton Marketing & Design Group (Fort Wayne, IN)   Susan Britton is Owner and Principal Creative Director at Britton Marketing & Design Group, a branding boutique agency that focuses on strategy, design, and helping its color-trended consumer goods clients better brand and market themselves. Sue started her career at Vera Bradley and rode a 9-year growth boom where things changed so rapidly the company had to reinvent itself every six months. (Revenues increased from $10 million to $400 million.) She left Vera Bradley on such good terms that they provided her with furniture for her new company and stayed on as clients with Britton doing catalogs and marketing for them for the next 10 years until Vera Bradley went public.  Sixteen years after she left her position at Vera Bradley, Sue says the experience “gave us a wonderful foundation to work with companies that are focused on home and colors, or fashion” – Britton’s niche market. She believes that brands “really take off” when a brand is distinctly “nuanced” in a way that shows the brand is special and the agency builds a “very highly descriptive visual expression” reinforcing the brand identity and couples that with a “strong strategy.” Done right, the created assets can be amortized over time, broadly used, and will promote a “more devoted following.”  As an example of a typical client, Sue talks about working with a number of paint companies, the importance of tracking color trends and building brand uniqueness, and the challenge of reaching out to “the do-it-yourselfers and the do-it-for-mes and then the pros.” Some changes Sue has seen over the years are “a reluctance to invest in creative because it’s changing so quickly,” the need for lots of online (and often transitory) creative assets, and the flux of brands vacillating between bringing their creative work inhouse . . . and seeking an external agency. Sue’s agency has deleted some staff positions over the years and today outsources to partner vendors such less-frequently used services as building website backends or videography. Sue is a strong believer in work-life balance. Before Covid, her agency interviewed people to discover what they valued . . . and came back with these results: “Their family, whatever that looked like. Their community. Their spirituality, whatever that looked like, or wellness. And then their environment.” She says, “They’ve circled the wagons around their family in a really, really big way.” She describes this as “the new American middle.” Sue can be reached on her agency’s website at: bmdg.com (for Britton Marketing & Design Group), send an email off the site, or email Sue directly at:  sue@bmdg.com Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Susan Britton, Owner and Principal Creative Director at Britton Marketing & Design Group based in my hometown of Fort Wayne, Indiana. Welcome to the podcast, Susan. SUE: Thank you, Rob. You can just call me Sue, that’s fine. ROB: We’ll go with Sue. Yeah, it’s excellent to have you here. I want all the Fort Wayne stories that the audience might not want to hear. But why don’t we start off first with a little bit of introduction to Britton Marketing & Design Group, and what is the firm’s superpower? SUE: Well, we’re in Fort Wayne, Indiana because my education happened when I went to work for Vera Bradley, which is located – their headquarters are here in Fort Wayne. I joined Vera Bradley when they were about $10 million, and nine years later they were about $400 million. We tried everything, we experienced everything, and growing at that fast rate, we were reinventing every six months what we were doing. So that was a real privilege, and like I said, a great education. Then I jumped off after about 10 years, and owner/founder Barbara Bradley Baekgaard and her partner, Pat, were really supportive when I left. They gave me furniture from the merchandising department and helped me get set up because they appreciated that they were female entrepreneurs and I wanted to be one again as well. Then we continued to work with Vera Bradley, doing their catalogs and some marketing for the next 10 years until they went public. It really gave us a wonderful foundation to work with companies that are focused on home and colors, or fashion. We worked with Peter Millar as well for a few years, getting them on the map. So really, our superpower, I would say, is design. It sounds very typical, but I think it’s sometimes underappreciated. I guess it’s hard to define sometimes, but when you have a brand that is really nuanced, when you have a very highly descriptive visual expression of what that brand is coupled with a really strong strategy, that’s when it operates on all cylinders and when we’ve seen brands really take off. I think people talk about it a lot in this industry – the form and function, the art and science – but it has always been true and will continue to be true. ROB: I assume on Day 1, you were the one designer. Is that the case? SUE: Yes. [laughs] I was sitting there looking out the window on a rainy day, at my desk. I had two other family members involved with me, and we were like, “Oh my gosh, what did we just do?” But the work followed, and we worked really hard. It all worked out. We’re here 16 years later and still figuring out marketing in the world today, which has gotten very complicated as well. ROB: I was going to ask, because design in and of itself can be a little bit tricky to define, but then the definition has even probably changed on you. How has the nature of the work you do, the services, the deliverables – what has shifted in those 16 years? SUE: I think it’s how fast everything – the kind of creative assets that people need constantly, day in and day out online – in the past, when we started out, it was print. Catalog work, and you would do two-week photoshoots. Well, that has really changed because of the tentative nature of the imagery that people need and the quantity of it. But I think what happens today is it’s easier to rely more on the science, which is more memorable – how many click-throughs – as we look at the success of an email campaign or whatever, a social media campaign. I’ve seen a transition for a couple of things. One, a reluctance to invest in creative because it’s changing so quickly. But when they don’t do that, then you could put anybody’s logo on a picture on Instagram, like fashion or even home goods. It really needs to be nuanced in a way that you know when you look at it that that is a special brand. And it takes a little investment to do that, but there is a way that it can be done where you’re really creating assets that are amortized over a certain period of time and used in every area. I see when companies do that, they really have a more devoted following. People respond so well to the uniqueness that that brand represents. Secondly, I think I’ve seen a change where in order to save costs many brands will bring their creative in-house, and that can be very successful, too, if they find the right people. It can also be easily unsuccessful just because of the complacency or the repetitive nature of the work. Focusing on one brand, day in and day out, I think sometimes people lose a little bit of edge. But not necessarily. ROB: There’s definitely a lot to consider there. The pendulum of in-house versus – not outsourced, but out of house, working with a creative services firm. That pendulum seems to swing both industry-wide and then some clients really swing that pendulum back and forth as well. You certainly mentioned Vera Bradley as a foundational client; what does your mix of clients look like? Are there typical industries, other key clients you’re able to talk about that you’ve snapped up since then? SUE: Yeah, what’s happened since then is we really have honed our expertise in mostly color-trended consumer goods – I can say primarily purchased by women, but sometimes not. We’ve really worked into a lot of different paint company work. When you think about paint, it’s kind of like chemicals in a bucket. It’s really all marketing to talk about what’s special about that particular brand of paint and to do it in a lifestyle way, but sometimes with humor. It’s very color-oriented, so we’re always working on trends, looking at trends, trying to look ahead to what’s coming up that the consumer is looking forward to seeing. Also, we asked ourselves when we were getting into especially the home goods market, what makes us successful in Fort Wayne with these kinds of customers, the color trending customers, home group customers? We saw that it was like the everyday person. It’s you and me, and so many percent of their consumers were everyday people. It wasn’t the super high end or super low commodity end. It’s really right there in the middle. So we’ve done a lot of research on that and have built an expertise around that particular consumer. That helps us work with these different companies. ROB: Paint’s a really interesting one because nobody looks at your wall and can tell what kind of paint you have, and you probably don’t know either. There’s not a lot of word-of-mouth there, I don’t think. Any paint could be any color. But you have an industry buyer – we’ve had somebody helping paint our house; I don’t even know what they’re picking. They know, absolutely, what they’re picking for us, and then there’s “What do I pick up when I wander down the aisle at Home Depot or Lowe’s?” It’s anybody, for sure. SUE: Right. And then they also have their pros that they’re trying to respond to. They have the do-it-yourselfers and the do-it-for-mes and then the pros. ROB: Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at with the pro that we work with. I don’t know what they’re picking. I don’t ask for anything. They tell me where to go pick my colors. They say, “Go to this store and pick a color.” And I listen and I do it. SUE: Right. They have undue influence. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] You got ahead of us on the origin story and where the firm came from, and you mentioned, of course, that you are still the principal creative director, but I’m sure you don’t do it all now. What did it look like to bring in let’s say the second design creative, and what did it take to get over the hump of you not doing it and letting them do the work? SUE: It’s probably a variety of things, but I think what’s really important is to not only mentor but provide room for mistakes. We had a saying early on; we bring in interns and grow our own. We would bring someone in and explain the level of quality that our clients expect and then coach them on how to get there and make sure they were getting there. Then they would embrace it. And we really provided a non-threatening environment where people could really grow, we could really mentor them, and give them their own work to own and really work at. That’s really what they’re doing today. Some people that are here have been here over 10 years, and probably the last group we hired has been for 7 years. So we’re probably getting ready to add another couple. But I think the important thing is respecting your team and allowing them to be different from you, but just making sure that the expectations are really clear and the goals of the company are clear too. But we also wanted to create an environment where they could have a life beyond work. I think we’ve all worked places where we just worked way too many hours and we couldn’t have a personal life. Even before COVID, which I think has really brought that whole situation to light, we wanted to create an environment where family also comes first. So, if you’re taking care of the people that are working for you, they’re your human resources, and respecting them as much as you respect the work I think has been really key to our success and to having a well-oiled machine where everybody has been here a while and keeps it all humming. ROB: Do you think that sort of autonomy is partly – you mentioned people who’ve been there 7 years, 9 years – do you feel like there’s a degree of autonomy where they get to do the work they would do even if they were out on their own, without the headache of being out on their own? Is that some of the mix? What’s some of the secret sauce on that kind of longevity? SUE: I think it’s very close to what you said. I think it’s a way that they feel ownership in the work that they’re doing, and as a team, we might group critique something so that it’s not really threatening, but we’re always looking at improvements so that they can grow into their work and they can own it, and I don’t have to look over their shoulder. Because I don’t think people really like that. Especially creative people. They have their own expression within a certain frame and having them hone that and be able to do that I think is what creatives really want to do. ROB: Certainly, with the amount of time you’ve had the firm up and running, I’m sure you’ve had to make some choices of where to grow and maybe some service offerings and lines of business that you’ve perhaps decided intentionally to not add. What are some things that maybe you have chosen to not do, maybe you keep partnering on them, maybe you refer them, maybe you say you don’t do that? Have there been decisions like that along the way? SUE: Oh yeah, for sure. We used to have a videographer on staff and some photography, and we decided a few years ago that our expertise is a branding boutique agency where we’re helping our clients brand themselves better and have a better marketing strategy and better nuanced creative. So we have partners that we use for website backend building or videography or some even just video editing, those kinds of services. We don’t always need them consistently, or even photographers, because for every particular job you want to customize the right vendor to that particular project. They all have different levels of need, from high quality to a lower quality maybe, depending on budgets. It’s nice to be flexible and then just plug in and play with those other vendors as needed. ROB: Got it. That makes sense. There’s an element even where maybe you have enough work to keep a videographer busy, but you really need half or a quarter or a tenth of 10 different videographers rather than ten-tenths of the same person. SUE: Yeah, exactly. That’s definitely true. ROB: Sue, as you reflect on the journey so far, what are some of the lessons you’ve learned in building the business – things you might go back and tell yourself to do differently if you were starting over? SUE: That’s a good question. I think building an expertise is so important. I learned that from a fellow that was helping with us, consulting with us on our business a few years ago, and it’s the best thing that we’ve ever done because it helps us focus on what we’re really good at, what we have the right to win, and not try to be everything to everyone. I’m sure many agencies go through that, because you really do want to reach. You want to do something new and exciting. And sometimes that’s fine, if it’s not too far from your expertise, to stretch. But sometimes if you overreach, you get yourself in a difficult position. That’s not really good for you and not good for your client, and it’s not good for your team. So, I think really understanding what you’re good at and owning that is key. In the past, we may have hired people that we thought, “Oh, we’re going to build this whole department,” but that really wasn’t going to happen. One thing is, people didn’t always trust you to be able to do it. They would look at what you were traditionally good at and they would not trust that you could go that far the other direction. So, I do think you have to really focus. ROB: I can see that. It definitely helps you know how to talk to your clients as well, rather than being everything to anyone. But it’s hard to get that conviction. You mentioned in some notes as we were getting this scheduled something about the “new American middle.” Tell me about the new American middle. What is that, and what is that expertise? How does that play into the firm? SUE: As we all know, marketing is really about values. If you’re in lifestyle marketing, it’s really about values, and it’s a pretty complicated, noisy world. You’re not going to get a chance to remember much about a brand with everything going so quickly, so it’s really important that when you’re marketing, you’re really connecting and resonating with your consumers’ values. As we looked at, again, who we were in Fort Wayne, why anybody should work with us, the kind of projects that are a good fit and companies that we could align with, it came back to that everyday person. As we dug in and we did a lot of research, we did some primary research, it was really illuminating to us that – and this was before COVID – we realized that the world had become less certain, and while maybe in the ’90s or some of the more consumer-driven decades, things had really changed. When we interviewed people, the most important thing to them was their family, whatever that looked like. Their community. Their spirituality, whatever that looked like, or wellness. And then their environment. Those are the things everyone was really concerned about. They’ve circled the wagons around their family in a really, really big way. For example, if you’re featuring maybe a woman with a handbag and that’s the product, so many companies feature it as a product on a person. But if you would reflect them doing things with their family, they may relate to that photo more quickly on a social media post than a single one. It’s just an idea of blending and taking your brand and looking at, with your competition also, what are the values that you compete over? What are the values you share? And what is the open space that they’re not owning? Many brands are not owning family. If, for example, when you do your research, it pops up as a top important consumer value to those customers, then you can really reflect that through your digital expressions and your copy, etc., if that makes sense. ROB: Yeah, that makes sense. You mentioned also – we talked a little bit about family. I understand that family’s also important to how you operate the firm. How have you thought about setting up the work environment, setting up the work, setting up roles in a way that is compatible with families, in a way that maybe other services firms have a hard time with? SUE: I think one thing we do is, for example, with the creative team, we have three different creative directors so that when we’re working with a client, usually there’s one that’s assigned, but they help each other out. So if one’s going to be out for a week, they’ll double up a little bit and do some handoffs just to get by through that week. And they know each other well enough that they can do that smoothly. In the past, I would say it was not the case. Early on, we had creative directors that were very specific about their work, which was great, but they didn’t really overlap. But I think as we’ve worked into trying to be more flexible in our schedules, we’ve overlapped with each other so that we can help each other out when the other person’s not in, and also, again, the work from home has really helped. I think it’s helped many companies realize that, oh, we didn’t lose productivity, and oh, this gives us more flexibility to have more work-life balance, and we haven’t seen a drop in productivity. I think that’s been of the nicer outcomes of COVID. ROB: How are you handling work from home? Is everybody home? Is there still an office? Do people come in anywhere at any particular time? How are you thinking through that? SUE: We feel like for our culture, to maintain a good culture, it’s still good to have a building and a place where we can be. So we work two days a week in the office and three days a week from home. But sometimes people don’t work in the office for the work because they may have a project that they really want to concentrate on, they don’t want the distraction of office. But I think naturally now, the days in office become more meeting-oriented days. It’s naturally flowed that way, and then the other days are more work days. I feel like it’s been less distracting than when we were in every day. ROB: So, it adds a little bit of predictability, less Swiss cheese on people’s schedules of meeting, work, meeting, work, meeting, work. But it also sounds like it’s a little bit more of a norm rather than a rule in terms of how many days in the office per week. SUE: Yeah, we don’t really use rules here in that fashion. [laughs] We’re all here on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, try to get in. And people do. And I think people do like that balance because it orients you to be here and to be able to have meetings together and see each other, and then it’s balancing to be able to work from home the other three. ROB: That’s good. It’s always interesting to hear the different ways that people are handling this. But I do think there’s value – if you’re going to still hire people and have people in a certain geography, it seems like being in the office sometimes matters. Otherwise, why not just hire somebody somewhere else? Which then you’re also competing with everybody everywhere else for talent. SUE: Right. I think that’s so true. It is really interesting to us how everybody’s handling this whole thing and how it’s evolving. It is true you can hire people remotely anywhere these days, and that’s a good thing. It can be good and bad. I don’t think we would be opposed to hiring somebody out of Fort Wayne, but it does sometimes get more challenging when you’re trying to put everything up on a board. I mean, you can Zoom some of that. I think everybody’s making it work, but there is a camaraderie. Actually, we do have someone who works out of Fort Wayne at this point and comes in every other week for a couple of days. That’s great because you still get to see them. But everybody will handle it differently, I’m sure. ROB: Yeah. It’s very, very interesting. I have a friend who just took over as president of an existing agency, and she lives in Atlanta, and the agency is in Knoxville. I think she’s going to be up there every other week. It really depends on the age and stage of life. I think her children are grown, college-bound. Flexing life here and there is a better fit for different people at different times. But I think picking a lane – you’ve picked a lane for your team, and you let them know what the expectation is – that really helps versus what we see in the news where Apple’s still trying to get their people to go to the office, but every time they try to get them to go to the office, they complain, a couple of people quit. It becomes this whole fits and starts, and “what are we doing here?” We ended up hiring primarily – during COVID was a lot of our growth, so we ended up being a distributed team without trying. We have folks everywhere from Florida to Georgia to California to now Canada. You know what lane you’re in. You pick it, and people who will gravitate towards that will be your tribe, I think. SUE: I think so, too. It’s really how you treat each other and how the culture is developed and how you respect each other. That’s where people want to work. Location almost doesn’t matter anymore. Many of our vendors are all over the U.S. We work with companies for photography, all over. Also video, also web development. You just try to pick the best vendors that you work well with, that you understand their quality level or their style. ROB: Yeah. Sue, when you look ahead, when you’re looking at the future of Britton Marketing & Design, you’re looking at the future of marketing and design in general, what gets you excited? What should we be looking for? What’s coming up? What’s going to be our exciting future? SUE: I think for us, we still just love telling a great story about a great brand that people have worked hard to develop and have put their heart and passion into. That’ll just never get old, looking at someone’s journey of developing an idea and then making it work. That is still really possible in the U.S., and I think that’s always an exciting thing for us: to take that beautiful idea, brand that they’ve developed, and then really illuminate it. Give them a nuanced creative that shows it for what it really is, the heart and soul of somebody’s idea, and then really laying that over a really wonderful marketing matrix where you’ve looked at the most inexpensive yet most effective way for them to go to market, and then how they reach the people who would really like this, who they can really respond to, to make their quality of life better. Also, the conscientious capitalism piece of it. What are people doing? How are they giving back? How are we as a community helping each other grow and be successful? I think whatever form that takes, it’s always still going to be a really exciting journey from a marketing standpoint. So many people think of marketing and think, “Oh, they’re just trying to sell me something.” No, that’s not what we do. That’s not what we get up for. It’s really a lot more layered than that. ROB: Yeah, you loop it all the way back to the paint conversation. I feel like when I see paint advertising, a lot of it is about creating ideas of what’s possible, it’s about how you make people feel, it’s about a combination of pride and hospitality. And maybe I’m making some of that up, but I think about it more on those levels. I’m not looking for a material datasheet comparing one paint to another. Maybe somebody in an industrial application is, but when I’m thinking about my home, my office, you’re not showing me a picture of a bucket most of the time. SUE: Right. It’s really your interaction with that brand – how does that brand make you feel about the products they have, the color ranges they have, the names? We had a project with Benjamin Moore years ago where we named a whole set of paint colors, and that was super fun for the team. They really loved that. Like some people will only buy paint that’s the name of a food, like whipped cream or chocolate or something like that. It’s funny what influences people. ROB: How did you come up with these names? Did you do research with consumers on their responses to these names? How did you get to the answer on that one? SUE: It was kind of a high-end line of paints that had different layers of pigments in them. The team would get together and – yeah, they didn’t really research. They just knew what the goal of the name should be in terms of a style, in terms of what they needed to imbue. So, they would come up with a range of names, a couple of names for each color, and then the company would look at them and pick them. Since then, we’ve worked with other paint companies – some of the very prominent, and they don’t like us to talk about it too much because they like us to just be quiet about it. And that’s okay, because we do a lot of work with them. But it really is about the paint names; it’s about how you talk about the paint, like you said, envisioning their new space or home and how it makes their home better. Paint is difficult for people to choose, so making it easy for people to select paints and pre-curating some for them is all really important. ROB: And I understand them wanting to take the center stage. That’s what every client wants. That’s what most people want. They want to be in the Story Brand metaphor. In the Hero’s Journey, they want to be the hero and they want you to be the guide, that you help them be the hero. That’s what we end up being there for when we’re on the services side, I think, so it’s hard to even market ourselves and show other potential clients how we can also be a good guide for them rather than using another client’s story to be the hero. SUE: That’s really true. It’s funny; we really feel very successful at helping other brands illuminate what they are and what they do, and it has always been a struggle for us to do a good job of that about ourselves. I think we’re a little humble, too. Midwest, you know. ROB: That’s right. There is that Midwestern humility. Sue, when people want to find and connect with you and with Britton Marketing & Design Group, where should they go to track you down? SUE: They can go to our website, which is just bmdg.com, as in Britton Marketing & Design Group. They can send an informational email to us and we’ll call them back. Or they can just email me as well, which is sue@bmdg.com. ROB: Excellent. Was it difficult getting a four-letter dot-com domain? SUE: We were surprised that it was not. That’s why we snagged it. ROB: [laughs] Well, excellent. Sue, thank you so much for coming on, for sharing your journey. Congratulations on everything you have done, and we look forward to seeing so much more ahead. SUE: Thanks, Rob. Thanks for your time and for the conversation. I think we can all help each other by having these kinds of conversations. We all learn from everything we hear and read, right? ROB: So much, Sue. Thank you. Be well. SUE: Thank you so much. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

6/2/22 • 30:40

Amanda Parker, President and Owner, Collective Alternative (Indianapolis, IN)   Amanda Parker is President and Owner at Collective Alternative, a full-service agency that focuses on growing small, mostly local businesses. She started her agency 14 years ago to bring together her background in strategy and development, experience as the Vice President of Marketing for a homebuilder, and passion for Mom-and-Pops, new home construction, and small, home-service businesses. Typical agency clients might include a local plumber trying to compete with bigger plumbing competition. In this interview, Amanda explains there are a number of differences for successfully working with small businesses as opposed to mega-brand clients. Marketers typically work fast. With small businesses, she has found that it is important to slow down, communicate with the client, and let them know what the agency is trying to accomplish, the end goal/objective, and the benefit of the end goal. They require a lot more “hand-holding” through the process, she explains, and they can’t “afford to waste a single dollar.” Amanda feels it is also critical to “protect” these smaller clients, to watch both the market and the economy. She also believes an “it’s just business” approach does not work. Larger companies have the resources and resilience to “experiment” with marketing strategies. With smaller companies, errors bleed through to the bottom line and can affect an organization’s survival. With smaller companies,  It is so personal. It doesn’t get any more personal for a small business owner. They have sunk everything into it. They’re working 12-16 hour days. All they want to do is provide for their family, send their daughter to dance class, send their kid to college, whatever it is. It’s personal. Amanda says she is quite cognizant of her personal weaknesses. In building her agency, she focuses on hiring people who can bring complementary strengths, identifies potential areas of growth, supports continuing education efforts, and brings in experts to help her team “accelerate” their careers. Some of the agency’s local clients go national. One client they are currently working with provides rehabilitative and mental health care for first responders (fire and police). The client will soon launch a national first responder mental health platform called Shield, which excites Amanda because it facilitates open discussions of mental health. Amanda can be reached on her agency’s website at: collectivealternative.com or thecaway.com, or by email at: amanda@thecaway.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I’m joined today by Amanda Parker, President and Owner at Collective Alternative based in Indianapolis, Indiana. Welcome to the podcast, Amanda. AMANDA: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here. ROB: Absolutely. Great to have you here. Why don’t you start off by telling us about Collective Alternative, and what distinguishes the firm? What is your superpower? AMANDA: Oh, our superpower. Our firm is unique in we focus on small business. My background with agencies and things like that, I was on the larger accounts, but I really fell in love with the mom n’ pops, the small businesses of the country, and wanted to give them an opportunity to compete and gain some market share. So, we really focus on those mom n’ pop businesses. I love home services. When I did work on the client-side, I was the Vice President of Marketing for a homebuilder, and I fell in love with it. It got in my blood. So, we love home services and new home construction and all of that. But I just love my small business clients and to see their growth. It’s just amazing. ROB: That’s excellent. Those businesses, you say small; are they largely local? Are some of them national in scope? Is it heavy into services? Are you helping the local plumber go up against the big guys, or what are the industry specialties? AMANDA: The majority of our clients are local. We are definitely helping that local plumber go up against the big guys. Even the bigger guy in the area, right? Which I just love. But we do have some clients that are national, or they’ve started local and they’ve grown nationally. We have one client that started here in Indiana, and they provide rehabilitative care, mental health care, all of that kind of thing for first responders – for fire and police. And they are growing on a national scale, especially with a new product they’re taking to market this month. So, it’s really cool to see that growth and be a part of it. ROB: That’s really exciting to be able to help with that. What is it that you think changed as the firm grows that makes it maybe a different firm specialty? How do you define small as in small business, and what is it that really makes the scope of what they need a great fit for you? AMANDA: My background is strategy and development, so I really focused on when you’re a small business, you cannot afford to waste a single dollar. I really focus on the strategy behind everything that we do. We don’t throw things at the wall to see what sticks. We are very focused, hone in on – we may do some A/B testing, but for the most part it’s planned out. We know what the payoff is going to be. We know we’re going to deliver the right ROI for our clients, and we really focus in on that strategy to make sure that every dollar they give to us is working for them and paying off. ROB: There’s definitely a certain pressure. They don’t have a lot of extra dollars for experimental budgets when you’re talking about a small business. And I can imagine there’s probably a range of services you can engage in. How far across the range are you going? You can do anything from SEO, you can do SEM, you can do paid organic social, you can do media, TV, billboards, out-of-home. How far does the rabbit hole go with these clients? AMANDA: We’re actually a full-service firm, so we do everything that they need. One issue that I always heard from my small business clients was they felt like they had to repeat their initiatives over and over again to a number of different marketing partners. At one point they’re talking to a PR person; then they’re talking to a digital firm; then they’re talking to an SEO firm. It was just all over the place, and they never felt like they had the unity, so they couldn’t tell if their dollars were really working for them or not. I brought all of those different expertises in-house with different people leading those different areas, and now everything is under one roof and we all collaborate and talk together. So, they don’t have to repeat and they can really see the benefit of it. ROB: Some services, it’s pretty straightforward; you can show somebody “You’re a plumber, we ran this ad, we tracked the phone numbers, here’s your calls.” Maybe if they’re really detailed, they can see what they got from that. How do you look at something that can be a little bit of a longer term investment? Let’s say you’re looking at – whether it’s an awareness campaign on a digital billboard, whether it’s maybe something where the outcome – sometimes it’s not 100% certain how well you can do in SEO and what keywords you can optimize for. How do you think about helping them through that process of investing over time? The outcome is a little bit unknown, but directionally, you know because it rhymes with plenty of other clients that you’ve seen. AMANDA: I think it’s more a matter of educating them and almost holding their hand through the process so they understand what it is that we’re trying to accomplish, they know what the end goal or objective is, and they know what the benefit of that end goal is. A lot of times as marketers, I feel like we go so fast – and we know it, and we know the acronyms and everything else, so we just keep going and going and going, and we don’t slow down enough to communicate to the client and let them know, “Okay, here’s what this means for you, and here’s why I’m doing it, and here’s what I’m hoping to see out of it or I expect to see out of it, and here’s what that means.” So just really overcommunicating that. ROB: Got it. I can certainly see that. And then there’s I think also a challenge, then, of equipping more and more of your team to walk clients on that journey. How do you help give your team the playbook that is needed so that – you can’t hold everybody’s hand anymore, right? AMANDA: I can’t. But I want to. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] All these nice little small businesses. They need somebody to hang out with them and help them and hug them, yes. AMANDA: Yes. I so want to, but I can’t. So, it’s really making sure that my team understands our culture, understands our mission. And if they do and they believe in it and they buy into it, then I know that they will continue to communicate that and advocate for the client. And that’s what I’ve seen. It really comes down to educating the team on what our mission is and then making sure that they believe it in their soul and then get out there and do it. ROB: Excellent. You mentioned a little bit of your past life and some of the work you’d done for clients before, but that’s still a long distance from actually starting your own agency. So, what was it that pushed you across that boundary and led you to start your own firm? AMANDA: I constantly heard that I was too vested in my clients and that “it’s not personal, it’s just business.” That kept me up at night. I struggled with that so much because, for a small business, you’d better believe it’s personal. It is so personal. It doesn’t get any more personal for a small business owner. They have sunk everything into it. They’re working 12-16 hour days. All they want to do is provide for their family, send their daughter to dance class, send their kid to college, whatever it is. It’s personal. I could not get that to settle with my soul, so I remember coming home one day and I told my husband, “Yeah, I’m done. I’m going to do this on my own and I’m going to make it personal.” And our tagline is “Making business personal.” He was like, “Okay, girl, go for it.” And that was 14 years ago. ROB: Wow, so 14 years. What have been some of the step functions, the inflection points on the journey? Whether it’s key hires, whether it’s service areas, whether it’s a certain degree of scale or things that you don’t do anymore that you used to, what have been some of those key points in the business? AMANDA: I feel like I have had this rollercoaster journey as a business owner. I’m sure a lot of business owners feel that way, but I have made some doozy mistakes where you hire the wrong person and they don’t buy into the mission, but you just liked them so much, or you felt they had such potential but they don’t want to realize it. I don't know. So, some bad hires along the way. But I’ve had some really great hires. I created a leadership team around me of some magnificent, magnificently talented people, and they are just incredible. I am so blessed to have them. As you know, this industry changes on a dime. Today it’s one thing, tomorrow it’s another. You have to stay up on that. So, making sure that we hire people who want to change with that and want to realize what’s new – I mean, five years ago what was TikTok? Come on. It’s just really making sure that we’re staying on top of things, that we know what’s coming, that we’re watching the market, we’re watching the economy. We have to protect our clients in ways that other firms don’t. ROB: Have you found some local business clients for whom TikTok makes good sense and resonates well? What have you seen there? AMANDA: It’s funny; because they’re home services – and I will say, in Indiana compared to maybe where you are or California, we seem to be a little bit behind some of the coasts. Several of my clients, their big thing this year was getting on Instagram. It is what it is. And now I’m trying to talk to them about influencers and “let’s get in with an influencer, let’s do an influencer campaign.” It’s harder for them to understand what that is or see the benefit of that, but they’re coming around. We’re doing some cool experimental things for them to see what that looks like. I know it’s their trust in me that’s pushing that, which I appreciate beyond words. But they’re getting there. [laughs] That’s all I can say. ROB: Sure. And I wonder also, not so much even for anything to reflect on you or your clients, but also as I think about the intersection of the businesses that you work with, simply put, the TikTok feed is not really optimized for local. That’s not an axis that it tends to revolve around, so I could see it being a tricky investment just from that part alone. The dynamic isn’t getting followed. The dynamic is showing up in the algorithmic feed and blowing up there. And TikTok would rather have somebody telling a joke or doing a dance or falling on their face or cute animals than “Here’s how you prepare for freezing your pipes in the winter, and here’s my dance for doing that.” It’s a different thing. AMANDA: [laughs] Yep, exactly. ROB: You mentioned, and I’ll pull on it a little bit – we don’t always get a chance to talk through the thinking that goes into exec team, who’s on that boat, what roles, what structure. How have you evolved and emerged and thought about this executive team around you and who’s on it? AMANDA: I think pretty uniquely in the fact that I have tried to be very self-aware of my weaknesses. My skillset does not include design. It does not include website creation or even brand management, for that matter. So, I knew early on I need very strong people with me on that side that can see the strategy in that and really support me there. So having a creative director, a VP of Creative, was really important. She was my first hire, and she is still with me today. I have a designer that has been with me for 12 years. It’s treating them like family, but filling in where I know that I am weak and I need to surround myself with strong talent. I think that has been so beneficial for me because then we’ve grown together. We can collaborate together, and together we do some really amazing things. ROB: It’s interesting when you have someone involved who excels in an area that you need them. You need them to be stronger there. How do you think about continuing to develop those team members in areas where you’re not more of an expert? There are places where you have your expertise and it’s your job to equip and cast vision, and then there’s stuff that you don’t know how to do, and that’s why people are there. How do you help your team grow with the firm? AMANDA: They still want to grow. They want to accelerate their career, they want to learn other things. We do a lot of training. We do a lot of bringing experts in. If they want to go to a conference or something like that, all of that is on the table. We do a lot of sharing newsletters, articles, videos. We do a lot of that back and forth so we all have that knowledge base, but they’re still learning. And then it’s constantly giving them a challenge. “Here’s an area of growth that I see,” and getting them to realize that, see that, and then jump in and participate in it. ROB: It’s always an interesting challenge, especially when you get outside of your wheelhouse a little bit, so I do appreciate that thinking. As you reflect on the journey of the firm, Amanda, what are some things you think about? What have you learned along the way? What would you go back and tell yourself “Don’t do that, do it this way” if you could? Reflect on those things you might’ve done differently if you were starting from zero. AMANDA: Oh, my goodness, that list is lengthy. There have been a couple times that we were primed to grow, we knew we needed help – this is where I learned this lesson – and instead of hiring for culture or fit that way, we hired doers that could just support the work and do the work. It just didn’t work out. It was a huge influx of people all of a sudden that we weren’t ready for. We didn’t train them appropriately. We did not set them up for success. That was a big lesson for me to learn, that I had hired the wrong way. I always try to leave people better than I found them, and I know those people I did not set up for success, and that was really tough for me. It was tough for me to get over that and move on to, “Okay, I had perhaps a negative impact on their life. I still need to take care of my clients and continue to build, so I need to reset. What does that look like so I don’t do that again?” That’s tough. It’s tough as a business owner to know that you have that kind of impact. ROB: Yeah. But it’s personal. You said it from the start. That part of the business is personal for you as well, so it’s consistent. It pulls through. Even the wrong decisions aren’t just like, “Oh, forget that person, they should’ve known better.” You see that in business, and some people operate that way, and that’s personal. That gets taken very differently, personally. It’s a different lane. AMANDA: It really does. It’s kept me up at night. And then there’s those things that if I could go back and tell this person “I’m sorry, I didn’t know what I should have known” or “I hadn’t learned that lesson” – you want to, and then at the same time, you’re the boss, so you’re always going to be the bad guy. [laughs] I mean, where’s the line, right? ROB: Yep. We’re in an interesting spot, an interesting turning point. We’re coming into the summer of 2022. Everybody’s done their different versions of office and no office, “how is my team structured, where is my team?” How are you thinking about the location and gathering of your team in-person as we’re going through 2022? AMANDA: That’s funny. When COVID came – and that was another lesson in and of itself – but when COVID came on, I was watching the news. I sent all my team home early. Before the mandate even rolled out, I had sent them to work from home. In the middle of May, my leadership team called me and said, “We’re going back to the office with or without you.” And that was May of 2020. I was like, “Um, there’s still a mandate.” I’m trying to talk through it, and they’re like, “No. We need to collaborate. This is what we do for our clients. We’re going back to the office June 1. You do whatever you need to do to make sure that happens, but we’re going back to the office.” It just so happened to roll with the timeline; they had lifted some restrictions at that point, so we could. And we’ve been in the office since June 1st of 2020. We’ve been very fortunate with – we try to stay healthy. If somebody’s sick, stay home, that kind of thing. But yeah, they want to be here. They want to collaborate. So that’s where we are. ROB: It sounds like you didn’t have to pull them into it. Did you have anybody who tried to move somewhere or tried to go remote first? Or that just wasn’t your lane? AMANDA: We did lose two people. One person had to move to Texas to take care of her family, and then another person was just not comfortable coming into the office and she actually quit. That was unfortunate, because we liked both of them, but this is where we do our best work, and we have to perform for those clients. ROB: I’m sure you’ve had to, whether it was those folks and you had to backfill them or new roles you’ve had to hire – have you found that there are people who are ready to be in an office? That’s a lane you’ve chosen and they’re like, “These are my people, I want to be in an office too”? How are you seeing this from a recruiting advantage perspective? AMANDA: That’s funny; I was just on an interview yesterday and she said she’s worked from home since 2018, and she wants back in an office so bad that she’s changed her career path and is moving over to marketing so she can go back in an office. It’s out there. People want to be back to work. They want to be back in an office. I think you have a mix. There are still some people that are enjoying the work remote. But for the most part, I’ve seen, and we’ve heard in our interviews, people are ready. They are ready to come back in. ROB: I think a lot of people really want clarity, too. They want to know what the plan is instead of being in permanent limbo. You see some of the tech companies are back and forth, and people don’t quite know. There’s people who moved to Idaho from Silicon Valley. They’re building a house there. They’re not going back. AMANDA: Yeah, exactly. ROB: But where you’re in limbo or it’s like now you’re going back – infamously, this past week, a VP of I think machine learning at Apple just said, “No, I’m not coming back to the office. I don’t want to do that. I will take a job somewhere else.” Now, them announcing that loudly is probably a good way to get some recruiting calls as well. But I think people want to know, and when it shifts, I think that’s when the moment of truth happens. We have hired all over the place, so we can’t put the genie back in the bottle. We did most of our growth during COVID. We’ve found ourselves in making a different choice. But our choice is still that we’re going to get together several times a year in a different place, and we’re still going to get on planes and spend time with sufficiently large clients. I think people still kind of know that. They want to be in a lane where they value getting together sometimes, but they want to be at home. I think the clarity of letting people know, as well as the proof – people can see the proof. They can see the proof on your LinkedIn. Where are your people? If all of your people are in one place, they’re going to take that message. If people are all over the place, they’re going to feel safe being somewhere else. We just hired somebody in Canada, which is a whole other interesting thing. We’ll enjoy getting to know her. AMANDA: I love the fact that remote opens up so much opportunity for people, and they can change to a different company or they can change to a different career path or whatever. I think that is perfect. But my team loves being together, loves to collaborate together. It’s the culture we’ve built, so we’re all here in Indiana and going to stay put. ROB: I’m glad it’s working for you. As you’re looking forward to the future of marketing, the future of services you provide, the future of your clients, what’s coming up for Collective Alternative that you’re excited about, for clients, for the overall trends in marketing in general? AMANDA: That’s a great question. We have right now – and I mentioned it a little bit earlier – one client that is launching a new platform. It’s called Shield, and it is a mental health platform for first responders, police and fire. I love the fact that we get to be very real and talk about how challenging their job is and how they do have those same needs that other people do. We get to talk about mental health openly. It’s so taboo, especially in that field, so if we can start to penetrate that and really start to show that even anonymously, they can take these assessments and see where they’re at, gauge what is going on, and they can self-assess – then maybe that helps them, or maybe that tells them, “Oh, I do drink a little bit too much. Maybe I should reach out and get some help with that.” Or “Maybe I should cut that.” Whatever it is so that they can be healthier, be better, and be better representatives of the community. So, it still has that community tie, but it’s on a national scale. I’m really excited about that. As far as trends, like I mentioned, the influencer thing. We’ve got a couple influencer campaigns going on, one with a remodeling client of ours. He’s all for it, so we’re talking about lifestyle and remodeling trends, and it’s been a lot of fun. Just doing some of those things to really set our clients apart and speak more to who they are and showcase that – I love it. I love it every day. ROB: That’s exciting. There’s a lot of good things coming up. I think it’s a really opportune time to engage people in some change that they’re seeking in their lives. I think people have realized – kind of like where they choose to work. They’re in whatever rut they’ve been in, but there’s some energy to do something different as other parts of their lives change. That’s very exciting and very timely. Amanda, when people want to find and connect with you, with Collective Alternative, where should they go to track you down? AMANDA: They can visit our website, collectivealternative.com, or thecaway.com, or they can reach out by email, amanda@thecaway.com. Give me a call, you name it. There’s a number of ways; you can find me all over the web. ROB: There it is. Excellent. And you can find you in your office as well. AMANDA: Right. ROB: [laughs] Thank you so much, Amanda. It’s been good to learn about you, to learn about Collective Alternative. Thank you for sharing your story and your journey with the audience. Really appreciate it. AMANDA: Thank you for having me. It was so fun. ROB: Thank you. Take care. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

5/19/22 • 28:58

Kevin Roy, Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO based in Beverly, Massachusetts   Kevin Roy is the Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO, a full-stack digital ad agency, best known for search engine optimization but also providing paid media, Google AdWords, Facebook, and programmatic display services. Over the years the team has developed a number of internal systems to keep up with the work, including 24x7 online ordering system that funnels agency orders to his team and creates a workflow. Kevin says the agency always has more web development work than it can “keep up with” but over the past 15 years, it has always been a “loss leader.”  The agency’s motto is “Page 1 or you don’t pay.” Kevin explains that the agency does not guarantee the agency’s services will get a client on Page 1. It’s about whether the client pays. Unless we get our clients on Page 1 for the keywords that they pick, they don’t pay us. If we don’t get them ranked, they don’t pay us. If we get them ranked and lose their rankings, they don’t pay us. We have to get them ranked and keep them ranked Part of the “secret sauce” of the agency’s success is a comprehensive understanding of Google’s webmaster tools and its ever-changing rules. Websites are optimized “based on a few very important factors.” The agency has an 80-step process, which is frequently updated to adapt to Google’s policy changes. As a recent example of a new Google requirement, Kevin cites desktop viewability. The agency has integrated this requirement into the websites it manages and tested the sites to ensure they meet “all those metrics.” Kevin warns against using “tricks” to “game the system” to get a site ranked. He says, “Google is always going to be bigger and have more resources” and will eventually figure out the “game.” “That’s not a position you want to put your client in,” he says. He believes it is more important to “just try to provide quality and relevance” and then adds, “It does take people a little longer to get ranked when you follow the rules, but it also is harder to lose your ranking when you do.” When Kevin decided to start his agency, he offered to build websites and run SEO for three successful businesspeople on two conditions:  that they not tell anyone that he “did it for free” and that, if they were happy with his work, they would recommend him. The strategy worked. Today, the agency is 100% referral and “business just keeps coming in.” At the beginning of client engagement, GreenBananaSEO provides a free website audit and recommendations based on what it perceives to be a client’s problem. Kevin says the agency is a “digital executioner” with an SEO division and a paid media division (focused on key performance indexes/conversions). He says the agency does “almost everything on a screen that’s paid” including OTT (over-the-top) television, programmatic, geofencing, geotargeting, and addressable media. No billboards. No direct mail. “It’s all paid media,” he explains, and the agency is “hired by people to make their messaging and their branding work.” Kevin can be reached on his personal page at: ijustmetkevin.com.or on his agency website at: greenbananaseo.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and my guest today is Kevin Roy, Co-founder of GreenBananaSEO based in Beverly, Massachusetts. Welcome to the podcast, Kevin.  KEVIN: Hey, thanks for having me. ROB: Great to have you here. Why don’t you start off by telling us about GreenBanana and what you specialize in? KEVIN: We don’t sell bananas. GreenBananaSEO is a full-stack digital ad agency, and we’re primarily known for our search engine optimization, but we also have a significant portion of our clients run paid media, Google AdWords, Facebook, programmatic display. One of the reasons that a lot of people know us for search engine optimization is our mottol, which is “Page 1 or you don’t pay.” So unless we get our clients on Page 1 for the keywords that they pick, they don’t pay us. If we don’t get them ranked, they don’t pay us. If we get them ranked and lose their rankings, they don’t pay us. We have to get them ranked and keep them ranked. And the big secret is there’s no secret. You just do what you’re supposed to do. Google publishes their webmaster tools. They’re not fun to read. [laughs] We read them and we optimize people’s sites based on a few very important factors that I could always touch on later. But you don’t try to game the system. You just try to provide quality and relevance, and you magically rank. ROB: How do you think about socializing that knowledge across your team? Some people who are there might have an intrinsic knowledge of what it takes, they’ve digested the notes on what Google likes, what Google doesn’t like. But somebody new comes in or somebody’s new to the industry – how do you think about putting them on the path of not looking for tricks and of doing the right thing? KEVIN: That’s a great question. We have a process. We have an 80-step process and we teach our members to follow that process. But we also have a hierarchy of SEO director-level knowledge that are always going and looking for the latest changes that Google has published that they made and how we have to adapt our process to that. Something that just came out recently was desktop viewability. It’s something that Google is amping people for if they don’t have the right desktop viewability, so we have to make that part of it, go in and test that, make sure their site is hitting all those metrics and adapting the site to that. ROB: That makes sense. SEO has a long history, and it’s been through – you’re making reference to tips and tricks, and there were all these conversations about “secrets.” There were tools people would provide that would tell you these secrets. Did you always come at it from the non-secrets angle, or was that an evolution and there were some tricks that once were kind of helpful, but have really attenuated as Google has evolved its algorithm? KEVIN: The thing that’s always stuck in the back of my mind is how massive Google is. There are tricks and things that you can do to game the system and try to get the site ranked, but Google is always going to be bigger and have more resources, and they are ultimately going to figure that out, and that’s not a position you want to put your client in. I always say, it’s not if you get caught, it’s when you get caught. So if you decide that’s the game you want to play, then buckle up. Maybe that’s something you want to do, but that’s not what we do. It does take people a little longer to get ranked when you follow the rules, but it also is harder to lose your ranking when you do. It’s a lot more beneficial. And our clients are real businesses that are really trying to promote their work, and they can’t afford to get caught for something we did. ROB: Page 1, that’s a great target. Are there ever keywords I would want to target where you would look at me as a client and say, “You know, I get it, but that’s a no. We can’t guarantee that”? Is there a target that’s too high? KEVIN: There are two parts to that answer. Number one, we don’t guarantee ranking. We guarantee that if we can’t get you there, you don’t pay us. So when people call and say, “Hey, GreenBanana, we need to get on Page 1 in a month for these keyword phrases,” I’m like, “Great. We have an AdWords campaign for that. I can guarantee you’ll get on Page 1 with a Google AdWords campaign because we’re going to bid higher than your competitors for that.” But there are certain things Google takes into consideration, like domain authority, how long the site has been living, how much content is on the site, and that a lot plays into how successful we think we’re going to be before we start the campaign. So if you started a brand new dating website today and said, “I want to get on Page 1 for dating,” I would say, “Okay, it’s going to take us about 18 months to get you ranked. This is what it’s going to cost when we do get you ranked. Sign this contract.” And you’ll probably say, “I can’t afford this.” [laughs] Because eHarmony and Match.com and Plenty of Fish and those people have teams and teams of SEO people. So yes, we can do it, but a lot of times if it’s a super broad term that is hyper, hyper-competitive, like – everyone calls us for mesothelioma. SEOs have been working on that for 15 years, so we have 14½ years of catch-up to do. It’s going to be expensive. ROB: That all makes sense. Where did this whole thing come from, Kevin? What made you decide to start GreenBanana? KEVIN: I used to be the web director for a company called eRoom Technology that ended up getting bought by EMC. It’s a workspace collaboration, kind of like – I don’t know if you use Basecamp or Teams. ROB: I know all the stuff. ClickUp and so many things now. KEVIN: Yeah, all those collaboration spaces. The company got bought out, and I had a team of people under me, and next thing you know I was doing about two hours’ worth of work doing web edit updates and going to the gym for the rest of the time and realizing my job was not going to last long. When my boss got let go, I went off and decided to start my own company. I got a good severance package, and I went around and found three people in the area that were really good, that I thought were successful businesspeople, and I said, “I’m going to build you a website for free. I’m going to do your SEO. You’re not going to tell anybody that I did it for free, and if you’re happy with it, you can recommend me.” That’s legitimately how the business started. ROB: Wow. KEVIN: Two of them worked out. One of them, that company either moved – I can’t even remember what happened. But two of them recommended me, and that started the spiral. To this day, I spend my time – we don’t have an outreach program. We don’t even do our own SEO. If you look at our SEO, it could be a lot better. I know the audience can’t see this, but the left-hand side of this sheet, there’s 30 RFPs that I had to write last week, and we’re 100% referral. We just try to help people. We’ll do free audits for people and say, “This is what we think you should do. Your problem may not be able to be solved by SEO” – for example, if it’s a product that no one’s ever heard of before, SEO Is not what you want. It’s going to be programmatic or social to get in front of people that might like your product. So we spend our days doing that, and miraculously, business just keeps coming in. It’s been like that for 15 years. ROB: When you mention RFP, is that an expression of interest from a client who needs a proposal, or more of a formal RFP, competitive…? KEVIN: That’s a good question. I don’t write RFPs. Actually, I did. I wrote two and spent weeks doing them and no one ever called me back, so I don’t write RFPs. [laughs] People calling us and asking for quotes, that’s what I call RFPs. ROB: Understood. So, you’re turning around a proposal, someone says, “What does this look like?”, you do a little bit of discovery, “I want to rank for this, I want to rank for that,” you turn it around and tell them, “This is what it looks like.” KEVIN: Yeah. We do an audit and then come and tell them, “Hey, is SEO the right thing for you? If it is, we’ll help you pick some keyword phrases.” Then we send it to them, there’s usually a little back and forth, and then we decide if we want to move forward or not. ROB: You just mentioned programmatic. I know earlier you mentioned not just SEO, but paid search, and then you mentioned social, which I didn’t hear you mention earlier. Scope of services is always an interesting conversation. Where do you draw the line? Are you doing paid social? Do you do organic social? Where do you say yes, where do you say no? KEVIN: It’s all paid media. We do almost everything on a screen that’s paid, like OTT, which is connected to television, programmatic, geofencing, geotargeting, addressable. What we don’t do is anything print. We don’t do billboards. We don’t do direct mail. People hire us because we’re digital executioners. We don’t even do – if someone calls and says, “I want the sexiest branding of anybody,” that’s not what we do. We’re hired by people to make their messaging and their branding work. We have an SEO division and we have a paid media division. The paid media team is solely focused on KPI or key performance indexes or conversions. When someone comes to work for GreenBanana as our paid media side, especially if they’re from another agency, I tell them, if you’re really, really good at this job, you can sell reporting for maybe two to three months. But you can sell conversions and leads forever. So everything that you’re doing, you should absolutely figure out in the very beginning. We don’t start a campaign until we figure out what the goal of the client is, and then you take the media that you’re serving and drive it to that goal and try to maximize it. Sometimes social, like Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, will outperform Google AdWords, or programmatic will outperform Twitter. A lot of our clients will come to us with, “Hey, I want to spend $5,000 in social and $2,500 in AdWords,” and we find out after running a campaign for 30 to 60 days, “You know what? AdWords is getting you double the amount of leads for the budget. We recommend you switch and pull your money from social into that.” And they always say yes, because the client doesn’t care who we’re giving money to; they just care about the success of the company. So that’s how we do that. Our account execs are really well-versed in every single medium, and they’re medium agnostic. They don’t care if budget gets pulled from one medium to another, even if it affects our margin at GreenBanana, because our job is to get the campaigns to be most successful. Those are the clients that increase budget, that stay with us forever. We have a plumber that has been with us for 13 of our 15 years, and they went from spending $750 a month to $40,000 a month over that long period of time because the campaigns that we’re working on are producing results. ROB: Right. It’s an engine for their business now and would be a fairly terrifying thing to switch out, I think. Also hard to get too different – even if they wanted to test out a competitive firm, it’s a little hard because then you’re bidding on some of the same stuff, I would think. KEVIN: Oh yeah, that’s a great point. You can’t run two Google campaigns because if you have two firms running two Google campaigns, Google’s only going to show one, and the one that’s showing is going to actually be more expensive than the one that isn’t. You just outbid yourself. So if you’re a company ever trying to pit one agency against the other, don’t have them run the same medium. Don’t have them both run Facebook or both run AdWords. It’s a terrible idea. ROB: That sounds like a good way to spend $80,000 a month instead. KEVIN: It’s a good way to blow a lot of money, yeah. ROB: You mentioned you had this initial flywheel in the firm, three test subjects and some referrals, and still growing and spinning it by referrals. What was the moment – your title is co-founder, so where else did this start, and when did it start to expand beyond the co-founder territory? KEVIN: It got to a point where I was – we do web development in-house. We never talk about it because we have more than we can keep up with, and for some reason, in 15 years it’s never been profitable. It’s always this loss leader. So I was doing a lot of web development, and I was outsourcing the stuff that I couldn’t keep up with. The outsource company that was local called me and said, “We can’t keep up with the demand that you’re sending us. Here’s a guy we recommend you send some of this stuff to.” His name is Mark, and he’s my business partner now. He and I really hit it off, and I said, “Let’s just get in this together because we have complementary skillsets.” So that was the co-founder piece. When it went beyond it, we didn’t have any money when we started. We didn’t have any private equity. No angel investors. We would save a little and then hire an employee, and save a little and hire an employee. If you look at the trajectory of GreenBanana, we’ve always grown, but it’s been a slow, steady organic growth to where we are right now. There are companies that have surpassed us that haven’t done that, and you could argue that’s a great way to do it, just got a big influx of cash and hired a team. But we said, no, we’re just going to keep reinvesting the money we make and build and grow and learn. As we grow, we build. We have internal systems that we’ve built because we have a lot of other agencies that are clients of ours. We built an online ordering system so at midnight, an agency can put in all the orders and have it funnel to my team and create a workflow. But that didn’t happen overnight. It took us a year and a half to build it. ROB: Right. You mentioned this commitment to steady growth. It can be tempting to push the fast-forward button. How, over this time, have you resisted the temptation to – whether it’s to take a buyout and take some growth there, whether it’s to take in some money and boost some hires – how have you been thinking about that as you proceed and stuck to the path of building growth organically? KEVIN: That’s a great question. In the beginning, no one was coming and asking us, “Here’s a bunch of money to go do something.” So that was easy. We did have some periods that we got a lot more customers than we could handle and we made mistakes. So that also made us nervous, and making sure that if someone just handed us a blank check, we probably wouldn’t know what to do with it. If the opportunity came where someone said, “Here’s a bunch of money and here’s the 10 agencies that we’ve grown exactly like yours,” that would be a lot more attractive. Now that we’re at the revenue that we’re at, we’re actually getting people that are asking us for that. But we haven’t gotten anything attractive enough to have us say, “We’ll give up half the business for that.” That’s actually the answer. The answer is nothing’s been attractive enough. ROB: That seems to be the case in services in general. I hear, at least, quite often that you’re measuring the value of the business based on EBITDA, based on your actual earnings, and maybe you can back out some expenses that have been loaded onto the business, that kind of thing. But really, if you’re healthy on EBITDA, then the business needs some cash to grow and some cash to distribute, and what’s the hurry on the sale? The terms aren’t usually enough to make you say, “I couldn’t make that much profit in three years.” KEVIN: Right. Exactly. That seems to be what’s happening. Also, I don’t think digital’s going away. I do think that certain mediums may come and go, but we’re medium agnostic, so if Facebook blows up next month, it’s going to stink, but we can shuffle. ROB: As you reflect on this journey so far – I guess you’re about 12 to 13 years in – what are some things you’ve learned on this journey that you wish you could go back and tell yourself to do differently? It sounds like you wouldn’t tell yourself to go take a check and get bought out, but I imagine there are some things you would consider doing differently along the way. KEVIN: I think a lot of it is psychological for me. If I could go back and say to 12 or 13 years ago Kevin, I’d say part of being an entrepreneur is there’s a lot of times where you’re taking three steps forward and two steps back. But the two steps back are never that bad. I’ve spent countless sleepless nights thinking of the worst thing that could possibly happen, and it’s never happened. Not even kind of happened. It’s legitimately never happened. So, if I could go back, I’d say stop worrying about that and focus on all the positive things because that thing’s never going to happen. And if it repeatedly hasn’t happened in 13 years, it’s not a coincidence. So I think that’s something I wish I knew a long time ago. But it’s also something that I continue to wrestle with because it’s kind of burned in the back of your brain. ROB: Absolutely. I needed that reminder from some other entrepreneurs yesterday. You have that moment, you have that day, where something small bad does happen. We had a job offer out that I was really excited about, and the last eight offers we put out were all accepted, and this person said no. I was like, oh man, that was not the answer I wanted. But same thing – you lose a client, but along the way, you’ve planted those seeds so that six months from now, you’re going to say, “That was a speedbump. That was not the end of the world.” We grew from there. A lot of folks said their experience has been they hired somebody better right after they got a no. It’s that long perspective, and I think planting the seeds and knowing you’ve done the work along the way. KEVIN: Right. There’s a great quote – I don’t even know who said it, but you don’t find a way to go around the problem; you find a way to go through it. It seems to work out. We had an employee that stole almost a quarter of our business, left with that, and we made it back in a year. It’s honestly the best thing that’s ever happened. So things like that, at the time, horrible. And then I wouldn’t change a thing now. ROB: [laughs] You might give them 50 cents to go do it. KEVIN: Seriously, yeah. ROB: They took maybe some customers that were more challenging to manage or maybe more loyal to a person than to the process. There’s a lot to think about there. KEVIN: Yeah, and it makes you sit and evaluate and say, “What things do I have to do and what do I need and what are the things that are necessary?”, and you end up becoming better. That’s what entrepreneurs do. People that aren’t entrepreneurs don’t understand it because those people are the ones that won’t take that risk and say, “I’ve got to go. I can’t do this. I can’t handle this stress.” The entrepreneurs say, “I’ve got to figure out how to deal with it, because this is it.” ROB: Right. Kevin, as you look ahead to GreenBanana, the future of GreenBanana and the practice areas you’re in – you mentioned maybe some channels go away, maybe there are some ways you’re thinking about shifting the practice – what does the future look like? What are you excited about? KEVIN: I’m excited about – technology is increasing. Whether you find this good or bad, creepy or not, the amount of data you have on client behavior is only getting better and enabling us to be more accurate in helping our clients hit their conversions. So that evolution is really exciting. With the products that we have, like Google launching GA4 – they already launched it, but GA4 is better than Universal Analytics in how you can see data. Those things inside the products are great, and there’s also all these other new products that are really exciting. I’m personally really excited about decentralized finance and crypto. We’re trying to figure out a way to accept crypto payments. It’s a pain in the butt to figure it out, but little things like that are fun for me, and I think as long as you’re excited about learning about new tech, there’s always going to be a business for a digital agency. ROB: That’s interesting on the accepting crypto side. Even for existing financial applications – we had a client who wanted to pay us their discovery budget on I think Venmo, and getting a business account up and running on these services from a KYC perspective, instead of a personal account – half the time it’s like they never even thought about it. There’s a lot ahead of us on that front, I think. KEVIN: Yeah. That’s the part we’re having trouble with. If you want to send me crypto to my crypto personal wallet, it’s easy. We can do it literally right now. But getting it into the business, getting it into QuickBooks, getting it to my accountants – I was like, whatever. Future Kevin will work on that. [laughs] ROB: Is there any particular business that you’re seeing, some type of business that is perhaps most open to paying in crypto? What’s that look like? KEVIN: None of the current businesses we’re working with – I won’t say none of them, but most of them wouldn’t consider it. It’s just something I’m personally interested in and I think it’s going to happen. ROB: Absolutely. A lot of these things took some time, and then it’s daily happenings. Pulling a little deeper into the topic, what are you seeing in defi and crypto? What direction excites you the most? Sometimes we’re placing bets; sometimes we’re just thinking about placing emotional bets with where we place our attention. What’s drawing you as the most tangible next few things that are going to happen? KEVIN: I’m invested in crypto. The things that have done the best for me are Bitcoin and Ethereum. I do read some other defi newsletters, but full disclosure, none of them have done great. But I haven’t really gone crazy into it. I spend most of my time on my company rather than researching that. I think the ease of transaction and the transparency of the transaction is so important, and I think that is what is going to – once people start to get more comfortable with decentralized finance, the ability to send money back and forth where there’s a trackable ledger of it, I think that is really going to change business. I mean, for us to get a check from someone, for us to send money back and forth, for us to do an ETH transaction, it’s our billing department on a phone call with someone, it’s back and forth, it’s waiting for 24 hours. Wallet to wallet is a QR code and a button, and it’s there, and the ledger’s there. I really think that’s going to start to change the world if people can let go of the fact that they’re not comfortable with it. ROB: There’s a lot there and there’s a lot to learn from all at the same time. Some of this stuff is kind of hard, some of the fees are kind of high, but you also see – I was just out at South by Southwest in Austin, and one of the most visible activations there was for an NFT collection called Doodles. They’d let you in the activation with your SXSW badge, but they’d let you in the VIP line if you could prove that you were a holder of a Doodles NFT. Which is about 12 ETH, so it’s… KEVIN: Yeah, that’s a lot of money. ROB: Absolutely. Looking at that, someone was like, “Could you just buy it and sell it?” I said, it depends on whether the thing’s been pumped by the conference. If it’s pumped by the conference, you’re going to lose 2 ETH just because you bought it at a spiky time. That’s bad news. KEVIN: I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the value of an NFT because it’s a picture on a screen that everybody can take. I know you pay and it’s yours, but you and I could take screenshots of each other right now. It’s hard to tell who owns it. ROB: In this case they actually were validating ownership against the blockchain. To get in, they were actually authenticating the ownership. But definitely hard right now. KEVIN: Exactly. It’s a currency that’s validated, but it’s like, what’s the value of having that picture other than getting an entrance? I understand that piece of it, but sticking it on your computer and saying “I own this,” like the picture behind me – it’s not really worth anything. I’m still trying to wrap my head around NFTs, and that’s my fault because I know that they’re really taking off. ROB: There’s a lot to go there. Even in the judgment of art. I can buy art at IKEA or I can buy art at Sotheby’s, and those are two very different things. But I can buy art at IKEA that probably looks like something I could buy at Sotheby’s. The value there is subjective, and where it lands, who knows? KEVIN: Yeah, exactly. I heard this really interesting podcast about a guy that was spending – he’s a wine collector, and some of those bottles of wine are hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he said, “I drank one and it really wasn’t that good.” [laughs] “You can get a comparable wine for $28.” ROB: Absolutely, or $3 at Trader Joe’s, right? KEVIN: It’s like, is that $400,000 better than the $3 one? [laughs] Or is it 15 times better? ROB: Kevin, when people want to find and connect with you and with GreenBanana, where should they go to find you? KEVIN: I used to lose my business card all the time, so I bought ijustmetkevin.com. ROB: Nice. KEVIN: That’ll take you to my page. Or you can just go to greenbananaseo.com ROB: That is excellent. Kevin, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for sharing your experience, your knowledge, things you’ve learned. I think we’re all better for it. Thank you very much. KEVIN: I appreciate your time. This was wonderful. Thank you. ROB: Best wishes to you and the team. Take care. KEVIN: Thanks. Take care. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

5/5/22 • 30:39

Mardis & Phnam Bagley, Creative Directors & Founding Partners, Nonfiction Design (San Francisco, CA)   Mardis and Phnam Bagley are Creative Directors and Founding Partners at Nonfiction Design, a company that started originally as an industrial design firm but morphed into a future-focused studio. The studio works with startups, Fortune 500 companies, and governments to solve huge, complex problems and “change the world for the better.”  Phnam says all of their clients are long term and come to them “to solve huge problems about the future of education . . . living on Mars . . . food . . . neuroscience.”. The studio strategizes with a lot of these leaders in innovation, technology, and science to help them get their products “into the hands of people that need them.” The studio pushes clients “into extremes” to solve technical, experiential, and design problems “through ergonomics, through human factors, through thinking about behavior change.”  Mardis explains one of the challenges of this work – that people have to “fight the biases of the past.” A recent project was with Movida, the School of Lifelong Learning, which wanted to rethink the future of education. Nonfiction set up two teams, one that dug into white papers from the past, and the other, a group of creatives unexposed to this data, that freely brainstormed the future of education. In the end, both groups came to the same conclusion . . . but the creatives had actionable solutions for moving forward. What did this exploratory discover about education? In this interview, Phnam outlines a few conclusions – one, that children would benefit from letting them “be and stay absurd.” She says, “Not everything in life needs to make sense, needs to be efficient.” She adds that life would be better if we sometimes spent time “doing things that don’t make any sense.” She believes today’s society schedules too much of children’s time. Teens, especially, need “time to rest physically, to rest the brain, to talk to other people, and to be bored” in order to grow to be healthy adults. Mardis says, “Developing a solution that’s completely individual to the client’s needs is really, really important to how we conduct business and how we keep satisfied clients.” With an eye to the future, the studio has started working on a “more circular economy model,” where design not only takes into consideration recycling, but also repair and remanufacturing.  The Nonfiction Studio team is diverse . . . from “many different cultures, many different countries.” Mardis, with a background in industrial engineering and branding, says they don’t look much at résumés or portfolios. Phnam, an industrial engineer with a master’s degree in (aero)space architecture, says the studio hires people “because they have something very interesting, and most likely that thing has to do with their past – what kind of career they’ve been through, what kind of country they come from, what kind of past they’ve had.” The husband-wife team presented “Designing the Future of Everything” at South by Southwest 2022 two times due to demand. Mardis, Phnam, and Nonfiction are available on Twitter and post future of design videos on Instagram. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Mardis and Phnam Bagley, Creative Directors and Founding Partners at Nonfiction Design based in San Francisco, California. We have a special two-guest episode because we had two speakers and they like to spend time with each other. Why don’t you start off by telling us about Nonfiction Design, and what is your superpower? PHNAM: Sure. Phnam here. I’m the wife of the Bagley duo. Nonfiction is a design firm based in San Francisco. Originally it was started as an industrial design firm because that’s both of our backgrounds, and it turned into this future-focused studio where companies from startups all the way to Fortune 500 companies to governments come to us to solve huge problems about the future. When we say huge problems, we’re talking about education, we’re talking about living on Mars, we’re talking about future of food, and we’re talking about neuroscience. This is what we do. ROB: That sounds like a wide range of things to solve. How do you go about knowing how to solve all these things? PHNAM: We are an extremely curious group of people. There is not one subject in the world that we don’t want to tackle because, in the end, what we want to do is change the world for the better. Impact is really at the core of everything that we do, whether it’s thinking about the future of future humans or what we need today in the medical industry. That’s what drives us. That gives us the motivation to work and make other people’s lives better. But also creating the foundation of a future that we want to live in, because when you look at the news, for example, a lot of things are not going according to plan. And I believe, and we believe, that designers have the power to change that. That’s why we started this company. ROB: Is there an example, maybe, of a future that you have had to recently think through? And what did you think about it? MARDIS: Hi, this is Mardis Bagley. Great question. I think one of the things we like to do is shake up the status quo. When we’re thinking about futures, we often have to fight the biases of the past. Stepping out of this entrenched thinking. One of the projects we worked on recently is called Movida, the School of Lifelong Learning. Thinking and rethinking education is a very, very complex problem. One of the things we did right off is we said that we don’t want to step too deep into research and repeat all the past, or even bias ourselves in thinking about the opportunity of the future. So, as we do this, we’re a number of creatives from all over the planet; we’re a very diverse studio of men, women, many different cultures, many different countries. But we all have some sort of experience. We have a certain amount of intuition. We all have been through school on many different levels. How do we redesign education in the way we think? What we did is we started designing it straight out of the gate. We pushed research to the side, which sounds kind of crazy. We totally avoided research in redesigning this school and this education system, and we came up with these really unique ideas about how to approach school and expand the minds of young children in a way that spoke to their wellbeing. It spoke to future generations. When we’re talking about designing education, we can’t design education for jobs that we don’t yet know what they’re going to be or the technologies that are going to empower them using the thinking of education that is well over 100 years old in the process. While we’re doing this wild ride of creativity and exploration on one side, we had a secondary research track talking to leaders in education from MIT and Stanford. But we never let them talk to our creatives on the other side. We let them have independent paths as they explored forward. What happened is after a few months, we ended up at the same exact location in terms of knowledge, in terms of understanding education, and how to break the norms – except for we were reading whitepapers that are decades old on one side, and on the other side is purely months of creativity. We got to the same exact location except for the creatives came out with solutions that are actionable, solutions that are ready to change young people’s lives. ROB: It might have even been hard to get to those solutions starting from the whitepapers, right? You started from another place and maybe even went some places you would never go. Part of brainstorming sometimes is proposing the impossible, the inappropriate, the unacceptable, but then bringing it back in bounds. So, what’s a solution that we didn’t know to a problem? PHNAM: Letting children be and stay absurd. The fact that not everything in life needs to make sense, needs to be efficient, and sometimes spend your time doing things that don’t make any sense. That’s part of being a child. So, reintroducing that in the way you interact with yourself, you interact with others, and you interact with the architecture of a school – that’s what we wanted to bring in there. There are certain aspects of the school that don’t really have a means. So that’s very much part of it. Another thing is that when you look at the schedule of children today, it’s a lot of going to school and going to after-school, activity, activity, activity. Their schedule is packed, and their parents are just driving them from one place to another. Really spending the time to rest physically, to rest the brain, to talk to other people, and to be bored – that’s very much part of human evolution. It’s a need that we have that we’ve taken away with all the screens and all the activity. We want to integrate it back into the lives of the kids so they grow up to be healthy adults. ROB: Are they allowed to be lazy at the same time, or can they do that at different times? Because structured lazy time seems like it would still be kind of in the pattern, but somebody’s going to go crazy thinking about letting each kid be lazy when they want to. How do you pull it off? PHNAM: Laziness is something that we know of. We call it laziness, but really it has a lot to do with physiological changes – in teenagers, for example. When you grow, you actually need to sleep more. You actually have to rest more. We’ve been forcing a schedule that’s extremely unnatural onto growing young adults, and that’s not really working. What that does is teaches humans to learn how to read their own body and to give their body what they need. That’s very much part of growing up and learning about the world. ROB: I think adults could learn that, too. We still need to learn how to accept that permission. I’ve done the audience a disservice; I’ve failed to mention why you have a loud fan club behind you. The reason is that we are live at South by Southwest at the interactive portion of the conference, primarily, this big old festival of people getting together in Austin, Texas for the first time in three years. You both are here to present a session. You presented it twice. What people don’t know if they have an event is you sign up for the session, and if it gets a lot of popularity, they schedule you for it again. So, you presented this twice because probably some combination of reputation, a good sizzling headline and summary, a following, and all these things. Your session was “Designing the Future of Everything.” What content, what frameworks, what ways of thinking – or was it more examples? What did you share with the audience? What did you want them to take away? MARDIS: I would say that at the foundation of our company, we like to say we turn science fiction into reality for a better future. If you step back and start to ask yourself what does that really mean, we as a company, Nonfiction, work with a lot of leaders in innovation and technology, technologists themselves, scientists. Oftentimes these technologies have a hard time getting out of the laboratory. They have a hard time getting into consumers’ hands, into the hands of people that need them. We come in and make these technologies available to people through ergonomics, through human factors, through thinking about behavior change. Very much so, as the title suggests, we do it for everything from medical devices to consumer devices. We work in aerospace and we work on-planet and off-planet. Recently, we’re happy to say that we won first place in the Deep Space Food Challenge with NASA as well as the Canadian Space Agency. ROB: Congratulations. MARDIS: Yeah, that’s very exciting. We’re building things that will hopefully leave planet and make future astronauts’ lives better as they travel two and a half, three years into space to Mars. ROB: What’s needed differently on that three-year journey? What did you have to design for in that context? MARDIS: I’ll let my partner, the outer space architect, answer that one. ROB: I like that job title, too. Wow. PHNAM: Yeah. I actually went to school for that. It surprises a lot of people. 15 years ago, I got a master’s degree in space architecture from the University of Houston. Back then, space architecture was very based on systems engineering, like what volume is necessary to help astronauts survive in space? But when you look at space today in 2022 with the SpaceX and Blue Origins of the world, it becomes clear that people like us are going to be part of the space industry in the future, whether as tourists or as people going to work up there. The reason why it’s so important for designers and architects and creatives to be part of all of this is because we understand humans. We know how to ask the right questions and to turn these answers into solutions that actually mean something to humans. So far, we’ve been designing space interiors very much like spaces for survival. When you look up the ISS right now, it’s not really a place you want to hang out in. So really thinking about making space more human is one of the models that we go after. We want to invite more designers, more architects, more creatives, more artists to really help us with that change. It does take a lot of disciplines to design for space because not everything works the same way. Here on Earth, opening a door is like you put your hand on it, you turn the knob and you’re done. Up in space you have to hold on to something else; otherwise you’re going to be pushed back. You have to think about food the same way – eating – what can be sent there, what can be safe to eat, what can protect you from cosmic radiation and things like that. What is the long-term effect of microgravity on your body? There’s been the famous twin project, Mark and Scott Kelly. One of the twins went up to space and one stayed on Earth, and we saw the difference physiologically and psychologically, what’s been happening between the two. So, based on that type of knowledge, how do we design better interiors and better products and better medical support for us to see ourselves in space? ROB: That seems like it must’ve had so many constraints to it, but also some constraints that maybe weren’t actual – that you were told were constraints but weren’t. What did you find was a constraint that helped you be creative and get to an unexpected solution? And what was something you were told you couldn’t do that you found out you actually could? Was there anything like that? PHNAM: We believe that without constraint you can’t design. You’re just going to come up with something that –  ROB: “Let’s just put a five-bedroom house in space and call it good, we’re all happy,” right? It doesn’t work that way. PHNAM: The constraint is space, of course. If it doesn’t fit in the payload area of a rocket, as of today we can’t bring it up. One thing that’s very different between designing for space and designing for Earth is weight. When we design something for Earth, weight is limited by shipping. In space, weight is money. I think it was in 1981, bringing a kilogram of mass up in low Earth orbit was like $81,000 or something. Now it’s less than $2,000, depending on what it is. So yeah, we have to think about things like this even before we design anything. ROB: Let’s rewind a little bit. Where did this whole thing start? What made you all decide to bring Nonfiction Design into existence rather than just having a job? MARDIS: Well, Nonfiction has been around for six years. Phnam and I have been in the industrial design industry for well over 16 years now. I’ve had a previous career in branding, and Phnam in aerospace as well. But what really brought it into existence is we were contracting, working in many different agencies over the years – all the big names you might recognize. We felt like there was a culture, there was a style of working that maybe could be refined. And I’m probably being kind. [laughs] We just felt like we could do it better, or at least let’s say different. We felt so compelled to give it a try. Some of the things that we wanted to fight against is we didn’t see enough diversity or inclusion. I mentioned that earlier. We have a very diverse crew, and that’s part of our secret sauce – listening to everybody, being very inclusive. But also breaking away from the norms of what we call industrial design now. It’s not just shape development or form development. That is part of it, making beautiful things, but we’re well beyond that. We’re into user interactions. We’re into designing for impact. We put a lot of things on the planet. Our efforts put a lot of things in people’s hands, and many of them go to the landfill. It’s a very linear model. We’ve started doing a more circular economy model where we think about designing not only for recycling, but for repair and remanufacturing. We’re thinking about our impact and we’re thinking about that lifecycle of a product along the way, and how can we do less negative impact and more positive impact? Positive impact would be impacting the planet in maybe an upcycling way or a regenerative way, but also impacting people’s lives along the way. ROB: How much of what you do is somebody coming to you knowing they want that whole package, and how much of it is them coming to you having seen something you did and they want one thing, and you have to bring them into the bigger picture? PHNAM: A lot of our clients today come to us with a question. They’re like, “How do we solve this endemic problem?” Then we strategize together on how to solve that problem, whether it’s a hardware solution or a software solution or whatever. Then from there, we build this relationship. Every client we have is a long-term relationship. We push them into extremes. One extreme is hypercreativity. They came to us as a design studio because they want us to show them what they can’t get themselves, number one. Number two is that we as a design firm are extremely technical. We’re not afraid of going very deep into the mechanical engineering, electrical, firmware, all that stuff because it’s necessary. We need to be part of the process. So really solving the technical problem at the same time as solving the experiential and the design problem is what we do well. As we do that, we take the hand of the clients and show them how it’s done. We don’t have a recipe that we apply to all projects. That’s actually a question we get asked all the time, “What is your process?” We probably have a different process for every single client we have. ROB: Wow. PHNAM: Because each of the clients has very specific needs in time and space and in industry, so we have to craft something very specific to each of them. ROB: I heard you say that a little bit when you were talking about not wanting to look at the whitepapers when you’re designing a solution. It’s not your process is always to put blinders on and not look at what’s out there, but sometimes it is, and it depends somewhat on the solution. It’s also an interesting positioning because a lot of creative services firms are out there – it’s almost like if you need some more of this work than you have capacity for, then go call these people. “I need somebody to do a little bit more paid marketing than I can do internally.” You all are positioned in a way where they probably don’t have the technical knowledge, and they are literally saying, “We don’t know what we don’t know. Please help us.” How do you communicate that when everybody wants to put a services firm into a category? How do you help people find you when they don’t know the category they’re looking for, maybe? Or is there a word of like five companies like you, and everyone else is somewhere else, that they’re looking for? PHNAM: It’s funny because I can’t really think of any company that does the things that we do at the level that we do it. That’s why we started this company: we saw that hole and we were like, “We can be that.” MARDIS: Yeah. Getting back to the question you were asking earlier of – do we guide our clients or do they come to us with a very specific ask. I think we like to assist our clients in dreaming. Dreaming of something bigger than themselves. We have to shoot for the stars to land on the moon, right? Let’s go really far and allow them to dream, and then we’re really good at fulfilling that dream. We have a lot of resources in-house, but we also have really good partnerships. Developing a solution that’s completely individual to the client’s needs is really, really important to how we conduct business and how we keep satisfied clients. ROB: How do you think about what to partner on versus what to cultivate as your own capability? What’s something you know you send out of house because it’s not your lane, but you need a steady partner for that kind of capability? PHNAM: I think it depends on the scale of things. If you need just a little bit of touch-up on mechanical engineering, we can probably do this in-house. But if you need a whole program developing new mechanism and new testing and all of that, or very specialized knowledge in acoustics, for example, that’s when we tap into our network. Another network that we have is in material science. None of us are material scientists, but we work a lot with materials. But when it comes to the science of it, the scalability of it, and the transparency behind the sustainable decisions that we make, we actually go to see scientists or a specialist of that kind. Over the years, throughout our career, we have built this amazing network of people who can pretty much answer everything we want. And if they don’t know it, they will know someone who knows. That’s very helpful. ROB: That makes sense. Sometimes the fastest way to the solution is just saying out loud that you don’t know and throwing it out into the world and somebody points you there. But when you’re struggling, you’re like, “How are we going to do this?” You don’t know how you’re going to do it and you feel trapped. PHNAM: Not knowing is actually where you have to start, in our book. If you start a project and you know exactly what you’re going to do for the rest of the project, you’re probably going to do what someone else has already done. But if you don’t know, or if you’re in a very uncomfortable space where you’re like, “Oh my God, this project is so big, I don’t know where to start” – that’s a good sign. ROB: You mentioned you all have been in this business for six years. What are some things you’ve learned in that time that you wish you could go back and tell yourself? A lesson or two, maybe “rethink this” or do it a little differently? PHNAM: I can give you one quick answer. Business development is extremely difficult to find externally. We’ve had people who helped us and it was not very successful. We realized two or three years ago that Mardis and I are actually much better at it than people who have that on their business cards, for our particular company, because we have the vision. We know what our company should be doing and what it should not be doing, and we know how to speak about it with passion. We can also modify our spiel to be a little bit more business-oriented, to be a little bit more design-oriented or future-oriented. That connects a lot better with the audience that we’re going after. We don’t sound like salespeople. We really go deep in conversations with potential clients very quickly, and I think they see that authenticity and they’re willing to go deeper with us immediately. ROB: There’s a credibility in your experience. There’s the founder authority in knowing the heart of the business. What do you think, Mardis? What would you say you might do differently? MARDIS: I do think Phnam nailed it. That would be by far the biggest thing. ROB: How do you think about growth, then? Do you feel like you grow by scaling your influence together and larger engagements? Do you think there’s a place where you find a “mini Mardis” or a “mini Phnam” to come in, somebody who actually does have – I mean, that intersection. I’ve seen folks say it before. It’s like, learn how to build something, learn how to sell something, and you’ll be unstoppable. You all are in that “technical but sellable” lane. So how do you scale, or do you want to? MARDIS: I don’t think either Phnam or I could handle a mini Mardis or a mini Phnam. Let’s just be outright about that. [laughs] Again, respect to so many other talented people that might come to work for us. We love diversity. We love having clients of all different sizes, different shapes, as we’ve mentioned, in different verticals. This is all really fun and exciting to us. We take knowledge and apply one aspect from one category to another all the time. In a funny way, we kind of ebb and flow with the clients, and we select them as they come. PHNAM: And I think it’s kind of like the same way we hire people. We could hire people who think like us and act like us, have the same hard skills as us, and just apply them. But what we look for is people who think differently but have the same drive as us. The way we choose concepts to go forward with is not. “What do I like as the founder of Nonfiction?”, because that’s pretty limited after a while. What we look for is, “What is going to blow our minds so it can blow the client’s mind, so then it can blow the user’s mind?” We always go for that. And then, once we’ve made that decision, we turn very quickly into “let’s prototype it, let’s test it” mode. Every time we’re uncomfortable with a solution, that’s usually the nugget of something extraordinary. We design the future. The future is not here yet. If we’re comfortable with everything that we do, we’re not doing our job. We need to make ourselves uncomfortable within our team first, welcome our clients to do it, so the rest of the world can do it too. ROB: Is there any signal that you might be just slightly too far in the future? Obviously, 20 years out might be too soon for a lot of things. How do you know when you need to pull it back just a couple of notches? How do you get there? PHNAM: Nonfiction at its core is the merging of five different disciplines. It’s business, technology, science, art, and design. When you practice all of this, specifically business, you always have to make sure that whatever decision you make makes sense from the business perspective. If I’m coming out with a product in two years and the people who we’re designing for can only afford $300, I cannot come up with a concept that’s going to cost $2,000. So, we have to make decisions like that, check in often, and make sure that what we come up with makes sense, because in the end we are not here just to come up with concepts. Honestly, anybody can come up with concepts. Even non-designers. But the magic is how do you turn a concept into something that’s real, into something that’s attainable, into something that has the potential to change people’s lives? That’s why we call our company Nonfiction. Science fiction has been around for a very long time. We all want it. But who is going to turn that into the real thing? It’s going to be people like us. ROB: That’s a great positioning: to build near science fiction, but call it nonfiction to make it concrete. It’s an excellent place to be. You mentioned hiring for diversity. If you look in the creative services world, I think diversity is often achieved, but perhaps it’s achieved by optimizing for some people in some roles, some people in some other roles. You have 90% of this role are guys, 90% of this role are women. All your ethnic diversity is over here, all these people are white Americans. How do you think about diversity in roles and hiring for people in positions that are harder to find diversity in? MARDIS: I do think that we’re very lucky that we’re a small enough team where we don’t have the large diversity challenges. Not to say that it doesn’t exist, but we do challenge our team members to adapt different skillsets, to step outside their comfort zone, to think about it in a different way. PHNAM: Another thing is that we’re not doing diversity for the sake of checking some boxes. It actually came very naturally. We don’t hire people just because they’re not white men. That’s weird. We hire people because they have something very interesting, and most likely that thing has to do with their past – what kind of career they’ve been through, what kind of country they come from, what kind of past they’ve had. When we interview people, really what we want to hear is what kind of crazy stories they have to tell us. Do they have a sense of humor? Are they able to tell stories that I’ve never heard before? And then the skills are just going to come, because everything we do is for the first time anyway. As long as you have the bare minimum, you can figure it out. MARDIS: I’d say when we do hire people – it’s funny; we have a joke around the office. We don’t really look at resumes or portfolios that much. We look at them a little bit, but really it’s a conversation. Talking to people, understanding what they’re about, who they are, their personality. This is a great way to filter through people that will work in a smaller team and won’t work in a smaller team. You don’t always have that ability when you’re in a really large organization. You’re being filtered by AI or some sort of online tool long before it gets to a human, and the human has all the different constraints. With us, we have great conversations. We go out for cocktails. It makes sense. We’re doing a lot of filtering long before we’ve got them in the office. ROB: It’s very interesting. It makes sense. Even if you go back to what you’re talking about with the lifelong learning school, that’s going to get to the right solution when you talk about everybody’s experience in school – what baggage do they feel like they’re carrying from that? What do they wish school had done for them? You can get a diverse set of experiences in a lot of ways there. So I can certainly see how that would come in handy. Mardis, Phnam, when people want to find you, when they want to find Nonfiction Design, how should they find and connect with you? PHNAM: We’re actually very active online. On Twitter, you can follow both Mardis and me and Nonfiction. Our Instagram is quite active as well. We post our video series on it. We have a video series on future of design. Basically, it’s years of experience that Mardis and I have accumulated over time – we’re just sharing that very transparently with everyone, and we’re doing it in layman’s terms. You can be a child, you can be someone who has nothing to do with design, you can be an engineer, you can be the head of a company – it doesn’t matter. You can connect with us as designers, not as Nonfiction, as just plain designers. We share our methodologies. We share our way of thinking, and we share our vision of what the future of many industries is. ROB: I encourage people to go check all of that out. I love how you’ve open-sourced a lot of that. People are so scared about what they share, but there’s the total package that you all have put together that delivers for clients, but there’s little seeds of thinking that still help other people. They’re not going to go steal your lunch money. Mardis, Phnam, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for meeting up. Congratulations on the encore session here at SXSW, and I wish you all excellent travels back to San Francisco. MARDIS: Excellent. Thank you. It’s been our pleasure. PHNAM: Thank you for inviting us. ROB: Thank you. Take care. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

4/28/22 • 32:24

Josh Goldblum, Founder and CEO, Blue Cadet (Philadelphia, PA and New York City, NY) Josh Goldblum is Founder and CEO at Blue Cadet, an experience design studio with around 30 employees in Philadelphia and 15 in New York.  Twenty-odd years ago, Josh worked in-house at the Smithsonian Institution, producing digital products and integrating technology into physical environments. Unfulfilled because big projects only came around every few years, Josh left and freelanced for a number of museums, doing single-touch Flash design and development. As his on-man Blue Cadet operation became a growing team, projects expanded to encompass touch tables, touch walls, and projection; technology evolved and became increasingly more sophisticated; and the organization’s internal systems had to be more formalized to meet the needs of the larger business. Today’s experience technology is far more powerful, interesting, and relevant than that in the past. Flash has been replaced by Real Engine, Unity, and JavaScript. The Blue Cadet studio continues to design large-touch surfaces and build immersive experiences but now works with augmented reality, haptics (touch-related communication), and using technology and digital products to make cultural content in physical spaces more immersive, engaging, and “magical.”  Although much of the firm’s work is for museums, it has recently expanded to provide these immersive services for executive briefing centers and such brands as Nike and Google. Josh says it’s important that the studio creates a “content experience that’s not just decorative, but actually tells a story that feels true to the space.” In working with clients, Josh finds it helpful to carve out a little paid research at the beginning of a project to prepare an ideation spread where the studio can research client needs and present ideas. At the end of this initial period, the client can either work with Blue Cadet or take the ideas Blue Cadet developed and work with another studio. Josh says, “It’s better to carve off a little space to redirect (the project) than to get into that death march of implementing something that’s just not going to be that great.” That time upfront also helps Blue Cadet discover what it is that a client really wants, whether they can provide what the client wants, whether they want to do the project, and whether the parties can develop a solid working relationship. Josh participated in a panel session discussion of Trends and Challenges for Experiential Culture at the 2022 South by Southwest Interactive Festival. He says he is most active on LinkedIn, where he shares a lot of concept prototype material. ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I’m joined live today at South by Southwest Interactive Festival by Josh Goldblum, Founder and CEO at Blue Cadet based in Philadelphia and New York. Welcome to the podcast, Josh. JOSH: Thanks for having me. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don’t you start off by telling us about Blue Cadet and what is your superpower? What is your calling card? What do people come to you for? JOSH: Blue Cadet is an experience design studio. Most of us are based in Philadelphia. There’s about 30 in Philadelphia, another 15 up in New York, and then actually, when I say “us” based in Philadelphia, we just moved out to LA. So my family moved to LA. We’re the only ones out there. We’re mostly known for experience design in the cultural space, and also really a lot of technology in physical space. Twenty-odd years ago, I was inhouse at Smithsonian doing digital product work, but also integrated technology into physical environments. So we’ve been in that experience design space, figuring out how you marry technology into public spaces, how you take cultural content and make it interesting. That’s what we’ve been doing, and we do it across physical space; we also do it across digital products.  ROB: Got it. It rings of museums or themed places, but I can also imagine a building that wants to have something and not just be a hollow shell. What does a typical space look like for you? JOSH: We do a lot of work in the museum space, like the traditional museum space. All the big museums are generally our clients. We’ve worked with a lot of them. Everything from like science centers to history museums to art museums. We did a Van Gogh projected experience with the Art Institute of Chicago way before they were doing all these projections. ROB: All the immersive experiences. JOSH: Yeah, we’ve been doing that for a long time. But then recently we’ve been moving more into brand work. We’ve been doing some work with Nike, which has been really exciting. We’ve done work with Google. trying to take a lot of that museum flair, which is an obsession with content and making sure that what we’re saying is true, and trying to figure out what’s interesting about a brand and giving it that treatment where you’re elevating the personalities, elevating the science. You’re making something that’s smart but also engaging. ROB: Where are they doing those things? JOSH: These are executive briefing centers, sometimes. These are museums or brands. Some of these are online. And then we started doing a little bit of work for real estate companies, just trying to – it’s not for me. [laughs] Just to activate some of their public spaces as well. Again, trying to bring in content experience that’s not just decorative, but actually tells a story that feels true to the space. ROB: When I think about this space, I start off thinking about the sleepy old kiosk that became a touchscreen and the keyboard is broken. Did it start there and proceed from there? JOSH: Yeah, I would say when we started out – Blue Cadet was my freelance handle. I was at the Smithsonian; I did a pretty cool project there that got a lot of attention. The Smithsonian being what it is, they only had big projects every few years. I was getting kind of bored, so I left and I started going around museum to museum. I was essentially picking up jobs doing Flash design and development. When we first started out, it was a lot of those single touchscreens and those things that were kind of cheap. No one was going to lose their job if we really screwed up. But we overdelivered. We did really great stuff, and we grew on the backs of those reputations and then started doing touch tables and touch walls and projection mapping. These days, we still do a lot of large touch surfaces and things like that, but a lot more thinking about the technologies that are more interesting or relevant. Now we’re doing a lot more with AR, things that are haptics, camera vision. Also just trying to figure out how to make an environment more engaging and magical. ROB: Some of the advantage, even, of the march of technology is that probably some of those early Flash things you were doing were still rather expensive and still took a big commitment. I think some of this has allowed the technology to come down into simpler spaces. My team’s done really simple electron-based kiosks with a little bit of sound, a little bit of animation, and it makes it more available to more places. JOSH: Yeah. It’s interesting because Flash was an amazing tool. Flash really allowed you to do a lot of very, very cool things. When Steve Jobs killed Flash, essentially – which he pretty much singlehandedly did – there was actually a little bit of a lull in experience design where the tools had to catch up. But now you see things like Real Engine, Unity – but even what you can do with JavaScript. You can do everything that you used to be able to do in Flash now to the nth degree. And it’s much better. Flash probably should’ve died. ROB: How often does as client come to you with an idea of what they want? How often do they come to you with a topic – “Here’s this topic, here’s what we want to show people; surprise us”? Or is it more “We have an idea and a direction”? Do you know how much space you’re dealing with? It seems like there’s a lot of variables in there. JOSH: A lot of times if we’re dealing with a museum client, they might have a big exhibit or something like that. Or even a brand, they have their stories, they know what they want to convey, they have the space. But then they come to us and they’re like, “How do we tell the story? How do we do this?” A lot of times even if they come in with very, very fully baked ideas, we’ll roll it way back into strategy and be like, let’s create a little bit of space to figure out what you can do with contemporary technology, with contemporary tools. What can you do to make sure that content or experience really shines in a way that’s not been done in the same way with different content six months before? ROB: It sounds like it’s really a consultative opportunity, right? To show them – maybe they start somewhere, but sometimes they don’t know what they don’t know, in a very good way. You have a broader span of the industry. That’s why they come to you. You bring some extra ideas to the plate. JOSH: Yeah. And usually what we do – we’ve been doing these things called ideation spreads. Sometimes someone will come to us with a pretty big budget and we’ll be like “Hey, instead of having to sign the SOW for this real big thing, give us 10% of it and give us three weeks, and let us do a bunch of sprints where we reconceptualize it and see if we land in a better place.”  Sometimes it’s better, particularly if you get a brief that you’re like, “This is not going to end well. This is not something we want to be working on for the next six months.” It’s better to carve off a little space to redirect it than to get into that death march of implementing something that’s just not going to be that great. ROB: Right. Do you ever engage in that competitive sales process where you’re competing over the big pie and you take the little pie? Does that happen? JOSH: Absolutely. I would say particularly as we were earning our market position and earning our reputation, we weren’t always the safe choice. We were always known for doing the creative thing and for doing something cool and new, but there were a lot of people who had done it a million times. And it was riskier for them to work with us. So that was a great way. We’d come in and do these ideation spreads and say, “Look, you don’t have to trust us with this giant thing. Bring us in here and let’s see if we can set the vision. You’re not even obligated to work with us after that.” ROB: Right, “You own the work, go ahead and take it.” I think every creative firm benefits when they find ways essentially to get paid for discovery instead of trying to do all this guesswork upfront. But there’s always the tension between “How much are we spending on this?” versus “How likely are we to get the work?” Nobody wants to be in that tension. So, the 10% strategy there makes a lot of sense. JOSH: Also, I’d much rather do that than do spec on RFPs. You don’t know anything about the client and really what they want. You don’t really know what the problem set is. So if you’re doing spec on an RFP, you’re really just shooting in the dark. Whereas if you carve out a little bit of space where you can actually collaborate with a client, you usually come up with better creative; you’re actually solving the problem. But then also, you get to build that relationship and the rapport, and that’s usually what carries you forward. Or you sit there and you’re like, “Okay, there’s not great relationship or rapport here.” ROB: You can dodge a bullet. JOSH: Yeah, you can be like, “Okay, you really did want that thing. God love ya, go on with it.” ROB: We talked a little bit about the origin story, about you going around to museums. When did you realize it was a thing and you said, “You know what, this is my job now”? What was the inflection point? JOSH: For a while, Blue Cadet was just my freelance handle. I was living in D.C. because I was still at the Smithsonian and I was picking up odd jobs. It was fun. I enjoyed it. The projects I’d get weren’t huge budgets, but I was actually making way more money than I was at the Smithsonian. But I finally got a project – a couple friends and I got this grant to do an interactive documentary, like a Flash-based documentary on the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. This was something where we came up with the idea, we went to a foundation, and we were like “Hey, can you pay us some money to put this thing together?” The timeline was such, the budget was such that I kind of had to hire a team. We had videographers, we had professional sound people. We were basically following this high school class – it was the only high school class to reopen after Hurricane Katrina. We were down there basically weeks after the hurricane. It was decimated. But when I was on that project – it was called Yearbook 2006 – I was like, oh man, if I bring in other people, it works way better. I was still doing the stuff that was too expensive to outsource, but I outsourced some other things and it ended up being really successful. It became really popular. I was like, okay, I want to start a studio. So that was the first point where I wanted to do a studio. Then that same team, we got another project the year after that for the Pulitzer Center and we ended up winning a News and Documentary Emmy, which was a pretty big deal at the time. We beat Wolf Blitzer or something. That put us on the map, and that snowballed to where we started getting a lot of work, and I was able to start building the team from there. ROB: It seems like something in that documentary space – of all the things you can fractionalize and take some people, do a project, get done with it, it seems like something in that video space, people are kind of used to it. That’s the drill; that’s what you do. You film something, then you move on to the next thing. JOSH: Yeah. Basically what happened was I was living in D.C. but I was from Philadelphia; I was turning 30. I was like, okay, I’m getting to an age where maybe I’m ready to settle down a little bit. I didn’t really want to settle down in D.C. So I moved up to Philly and I made my first hire. It was someone straight out of college. She actually still works for me, 15 years later. ROB: Wow. JOSH: But that was the thing. We were hiring junior people and training them up, and then we grew very linearly, 20% year over year. There were weird inflection points along the way, but yeah, that’s how we got to where we are now. ROB: What’s a weird inflection point? JOSH: As you’re growing a studio, there are always these different points where the wheels get real shaky and the systems that were working fine in this phase don’t really work as well in the next phase. There’s a point where you have to get really professional about bill pay, about HR, benefits. You just have to start layering in a lot of systems at various points. And those are the points where you start getting more professional and you start having to have an org chart. You can’t just have a bunch of super creative people scrambling around all over the place. ROB: How have you digested that change? Is it something that comes well to you? Is there somebody, or many people, maybe a role that’s been integral to making the jumps? JOSH: Yeah, my partner Troy. We both worked as new media specialists at the Smithsonian. He was like my sixth hire or something like that at Blue Cadet. He was living in Denver quite happily, and I sort of dragged him across country to move to Philadelphia and start things. But I love Troy. I’m one of these people who can talk a really good game and I can set a vision or get really excited about the idea and what this thing can be. Troy’s the kind of guy who can sit down and actually make it happen. He can actually do it. So, he’s invaluable. Over the years, we’ve been very selective. I spend a lot of time recruiting the people that I want into the team. Very few people necessarily applied to Blue Cadet, particularly at the leadership level. I always sought out people that I thought would really fit into the studio and scale out our capabilities. ROB: That’s a great opportunity, because those strategic roles are also the ones where you could actually justify bringing a recruiter to, which you can’t always do in the services world. But to find those people and recruit them in . . . . JOSH: I never used a recruiter. Where you find the best people is just like here at SXSW, you’re meeting people. Or you meet clients. One of the people I recruited to Blue Cadet, who actually left to take over digital at the Obama Library, was client side, and she left midway through the project and everyone was like, “Oh my God, this place is going to fall apart without her. She is so instrumental to the studio.” This was a studio I was working with, and I was like, “That sucks; the project’s going to go sideways.” But then I was like, “I’m going to poach her at some point. I’m going to get her on my team.” And she was fantastic. So, I’m always looking for people that I’m like, “Wow, that person’s way smarter than me or better that me at these things.” ROB: That’s excellent, especially when you know the capabilities you don’t quite need yet, or you don’t need another person in that capability yet, and you can keep your head on the swivel, keep the mental library going of who’s next. It’s a fun journey to have that wish list and then fulfill on it. JOSH: Yeah. ROB: So, you’re here and you have a session coming up. It is “Trends and Challenges for Experiential Culture.” What are you looking for people to get out of that? JOSH: Obviously, I’ve been speaking about experience design for a very, very long time. I was talking about how things were getting completely disrupted with physical space pre-pandemic. I was talking about Meow Wolf and Museum of Ice Cream and the changing face of retail and also some of the things that were happening with museums, and this was like 2018-2019. I was like, man, stuff’s really going to change. I saw the trends, I saw this stuff happening. And then obviously the pandemic has accelerated everything. Who knows where the chips are going to fall, but one of the things we’re seeing is a lot of people wanting to get back into physical space. Places like SXSW are now filling up again. People want to be around each other. But what are the spaces that bring out the best in us? How could those spaces operate to create better connections between people? That’s the sort of thing we’re really interested in. And then also, how do you discard the old stuff that doesn’t work anymore? Honestly, I love museums but I also kind of hate them. Also, I know for my kids, they’re not dying to go to the old-fashioned museum and read a bunch of wall labels. They’re really interested in culture because they’re my children, our children, but they want to consume it differently. And I want to make sure that they’re consuming culture in a way that feels good to them, that’s enjoyable and interesting to them. ROB: What do you think they’re going to want? Where is it headed? JOSH: It’s so funny; my kids like Roblox, they like all those things. I’ve taken them to a million museums. I’ve taken my son to Epcot and Disney and all the different – sometimes the things they like are the cheesy, colorful, fun Museum of Ice Cream rip-offs. But also, they would eat candy all day if I let them do that, too. So, it’s figuring out, okay, what are the things that have a personality, that are fun, that are interesting, that are enjoyable, but also are not just mind-numbing or consumptive? ROB: Right. Even some of the newish stuff – I’m sure you’ll see a lot of it around here at SXSW; there’s different activations. There’s some integration of different assets, even into the little doodles activation over here that’s NFTs plus an actual physical space. How do you think about the difference between using a technology for the sake of the technology and using it because it’s actually right for the environment? JOSH: I actually really like the doodles space. I thought they did a really nice job. I think part of it is a lot of times I talk to these museums and I’m like, “You should be looking more to that marketing. You should be taking a lot more inspiration from them,” because they move really fast, they put these things together really quick, they’re not super, super precious, they don’t expect it to be up in 5 years, let alone 10 years, let alone 2 weeks, and they’re able to take more risks. Because it’s sort of a one-and-done, they don’t have to make sure that it feels the same 10 years from now. Obviously, that marketing is a very different business model than a museum, but I think there are things that can be borrowed. And personally, I think even that doodles exhibit – there were a lot of nods to themed entertainment. There was a lot of stenography, there was a lot of sculptural pieces. There were some really nice light applications of technology. I thought it was really successful. I would like to see museums looking more like that. ROB: Got it. I think there’s times when we’ve probably all seen AR for AR’s sake, VR for VR’s sake. How do you filter “This is a good place for VR, this is not”? Or “It could be done this way but not that one”? JOSH: I used to take a much harder line on this in the past. Honestly, some of these things, you look at some of these AR experiences and you’re like, what’s the point? It’s not doing anything except demonstrating the technology. It’s like, okay, if you’ve never seen AR, awesome. That’s really awesome. But if you have seen AR, you don’t care. Same with some of these projection experiences. It’s like, if you’re never been in a giant room filled with Christie projectors, it’s really exciting to be at the Van Gogh and see all this stuff. But then you go back and it’s the same thing, but with Klimt or Picasso or Monet; it’s like, “I’ve seen it.” So, I think part of it is I’m actually okay with technology for technology’s sake where it serves a spectacle, where you’ve never seen it before. It makes people excited and engaged. I think where it gets old is where it’s already been done before. You’re not even doing that. You’re just being lazy. The thing I always look at, too, is either you’ve got to really, really be serving that content in a way that’s compelling and really getting people into it – and sometimes that is spectacle. Spectacle gets people excited. It gets them interested. But if you fail at the spectacle and then you don’t provide the content, it’s just a wasted experience. ROB: It seems like you’re very adjacent to not only event marketing, but also perhaps even to entertainment, theme park, that kind of thing. How do you decide where you go and where you don’t go in those markets, and where you compete and where you choose to stay in your lane? JOSH: It’s funny; I used to be very selective about the types of clients I would take on. I was like, “I’m not working with brands. I’m working with museums and nonprofits and higher ed. That’s my tribe.” The thing I realized is sometimes your tribe is not aligned to a sector. It’s really just a way of being. There are people at Nike that have way, way more in common with me and how I see technology, how I see content, how I see culture than people at some of these museums. Some of the people in these museums are very, very retrograde, and they’re like, “No, we need a clean white room with a painting and 7,000 words of text. Bring your seven-year-old in here and they’re going to read my dissertation.” I have less in common with them than somebody who’s at a brand, whether it’s a technology brand or materials brand or someone selling shoes, that wants to tell this story in an interesting way or find something interesting to elevate out of it. ROB: The brands change, too. That’s part of it. Once you’re in the game for a while, the brands change. The legend of what Nike is has shifted several times at different inflection points. Shoe Dogs, one moment in time. I interned once upon a time at Chick-fil-A’s headquarters. Chick-fil-A’s museum was a little room with a trophy case and a fake vault, and they’ve expanded what that experience is. So, I think the brands change too, and who they are and what they need might be different from the thing you used to react to. JOSH: Yeah, 100%. Often it’s just who’s there and who’s championing the brand, who wants to tell that story, and how they want to tell it. The thing is, there’s so many projects at Nike that Blue Cadet should have no part in, but the projects we are working with them are very Blue Cadet-like projects. There’s a lot of interesting content, stories. We did one for the LeBron James Innovation Center. It’s all about how they use data to inform how they work with athletes, and that’s really cool. That’s really exciting and something that my team is very, very well-positioned to execute on. ROB: Your session also ties into trends a lot. What’s next? What’s something you think you’re going to end up doing soon at Blue Cadet that you haven’t done before? JOSH: I’ve actually been spending a lot of time looking at Web3 and NFTs and things like that. I think beyond the hype, there’s something really interesting stuff there. I think there’s something very interesting about digital ownership. I think there’s something very interesting about bringing things from the physical world in the digital world, bringing things from the digital world into the physical world. I think NFTs help with that. I think there’s some really exciting things happening there. Personally, I think it’s a really exciting time to be in experience design because frankly, COVID screwed everything up. Everyone’s rethinking things. Like, “Do I shake someone’s hand? Do I give them a hug? Do I wear a mask here, do I not wear a mask here?” All the social norms, the way we behaved in physical spaces, have changed. So, now’s a really interesting time to direct some innovation and say, okay, now that we’re rethinking this, let’s put some design thinking to it and figure out how to make these spaces better. ROB: Right. Some people shut everything down for two years, some people built nothing for two years, some people rebuilt everything during those two years. Some stuff was pulled forward, some stuff is waiting in the wings. It’s very lumpy. JOSH: Yeah, absolutely. I think what’ll be really interesting is we don’t really know. We’ve all been in this one state and now we’re entering into another, hopefully, and we’re not quite sure how the chips will fall. We don’t know what the new behaviors are going to be. It’d be really interesting to see, as you revisit the conference that you went to for 10 years or the restaurant you used to go to every week, as you start going back into those things, does it feel the same? Does it still work the same way? Does it still affect you the same way? I don’t know. Does it feel great to go back to a movie theater? Maybe, maybe not. ROB: I haven’t tried yet. JOSH: Honestly, I was one of those people like “Ah screw it, I don’t need it.” Then I took my kids to see the new Spider-Man and I was like, wait a second. This is actually really nice. It was actually quite enjoyable. ROB: It was probably fairly uncrowded too, which helps. [laughs] JOSH: It was pretty uncrowded, yeah. [laughs] ROB: For me, same thing. We have kids, so me not going to the movies is more about me having kids and not going to the movies as much as I did when we were just a couple with time on our hands and it’s like “It’s Tuesday, what do we do? Let’s go see a movie and get home at 11:00. Fine.” Different seasons. JOSH: Yeah. ROB: Are there any sort of behaviors that were adopted experientially during COVID that you think are going to stick? There’s interesting things – I think about some escape rooms did versions of escape rooms where they would do it for you over Zoom. And they’re still doing it I guess, but I don’t know. Are there weird things that people did that you think might stick around? JOSH: I mean, I think remote work is not going anywhere. ROB: You’re betting on it. JOSH: Yeah, I’m living in California and my studio is entirely on the East Coast. We started hiring people out of market, which we never did before. We have people who moved into the Hudson River Valley or out in the Poconos, moving away from the city, away from our offices. And it hasn’t been affecting the work. So, I think that’s going to be really interesting. I think also how we’re thinking about the studios themselves – we have this beautiful, beautiful office in Philadelphia and New York with lots of desks, but we’re like, do we all need these desks if we’re not going to be there every day? Can we optimize this for prototyping spaces? We build a lot of things in physical space, lots of hardware in the office. We need that. That’s part of our process. But it’s like, do we need all these desks? ROB: Do you find you’re still pulling people together to actually get hands on with the experience? You can do a lot of the design in your own place, but there’s a point where it still has to get physical and maybe that’s a good time to convene the team anyhow to build rapport? JOSH: Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, I love it. It’s great to bring people together in physical space. But when there’s a reason. Let’s bring them in physical space to prototype, but we don’t have to bring them into shared space just for another meeting. That’s not worth it. [laughs] That stuff can go to Zoom. ROB: Josh, all very interesting stuff. When people want to connect with you and with Blue Cadet, where should they go to find you? JOSH: I’m probably most active on LinkedIn. Just look me up on LinkedIn. I actually spend a lot of time sharing a lot of prototypes. ROB: I was going to say, you probably share some cool stuff. JOSH: I share some really cool stuff. I at one point realized that the Blue Cadet internal Slack where we’re just sharing prototypes and process stuff was way more interesting than anything I was sharing on social media, so I was like, I’m just going to share that stuff. The Blue Cadet Slack is way more interesting than any social feed I follow. So, I share the stuff I’m allowed to share off that. ROB: That turns out to be great marketing on LinkedIn, too. Some stuff people won’t connect with, some stuff probably goes to the moon, and then people are like, “Who did that?” “Blue Cadet did that.” “Hey, I need that.” I don’t know if it’s scalable, but it also doesn’t have to. I don’t know how many days a week you’re LinkedIn posting, but it’s one or two or three days a week. JOSH: Yeah. The LinkedIn posts I’m putting up are early prototypes. They’re super messy. It’s a lot of cardboard and projection and things taped together. But usually then there’s some really interesting technology in there, and I feel like it’s an easier way to see how this actually gets made. ROB: Excellent. Josh, thank you so much for meeting up, for coming on the podcast. JOSH: Absolutely. ROB: Wish you the best on your talk in a couple of days as well. JOSH: Hope you make it out there. It’d be great. ROB: Thanks so much. JOSH: Thanks for having me. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

4/21/22 • 29:21

Jennifer Brown of Jennifer Brown Consulting based out of New York, NY Jennifer Brown founded her namesake Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion consulting agency 20 years ago. The agency develops top-down DEI strategies and training programs for medium-size to large companies; sets up effective, well-aligned affinity groups within those companies; and promotes inclusive leadership through educational initiatives. Jennifer is a frequent keynote speaker, both virtually and live. She presented Beyond Diversity: Building A More Inclusive World at the 2022 South by Southwest Conference and followed that with a book signing of her third book, Beyond Diversity: 12 Non-Obvious Ways to Build a More Inclusive World, which she co-authored with Rohit Bhargava. Jennifer is the bestselling author of Inclusion: Diversity, The New Workplace & The Will to Change (2017) and How to Be an Inclusive Leader: Your Role in Creating Cultures of Belonging Where Everyone Can Thrive (2019). The second edition of the 2019 book will be released in October 2022. Jennifer says there was “a huge wake-up call in spring/summer of 2020” after the murder of George Floyd and the subsequent and still-ongoing social movement for cultural change. Jennifer feels that today’s workplace is “not built by and for so many of us if we . . . don’t fit a certain demographic.” Jennifer explains the importance of this “sea change”: “If people feel welcomed, valued, respected, and heard, and a deep sense of belonging and being treated equitably . . . they do better work . . . and they stay longer.” Jennifer says she is a “member of the LGBTQ+ community” who has “been out for nearly 25 years.” She believes half of her cohorts “are still closeted in the workplace,” but that, finally, people are no longer talking about “why” inclusion is important, but “how” to make it happen. She believes companies will be challenged in setting up equitable workplaces as they rebuild “post-Covid,” particularly with managing blended teams of hybrid (virtual and in-person) employees.  Jennifer warns that managers need to be vigilant in supportinging inclusivity. “Harassment has gone up in the virtual workplace,” she says. Why? “There are no witnesses,” she explains. People are “cut off from information” and don’t know their options on how to escalate a complaint and whether they can trust their employer to handle the issue. Jennifer Brown Consulting facilitates the establishment of corporate affinity groups, which are often comprised of people who tend to be “overlooked in the talent pipeline because of bias” in hiring practice, promotion, advancement, and talent reviews.” Even smaller and medium-sized companies are adopting affinity groups to serve as workplace “sources of intelligence about cultural experience,” tap into what is working and what is not, and provide support and “community” to employees who may have, in the past, felt “marginalized.” Jennifer can be reached on Instagram, @JenniferBrownSpeaks; on Twitter, @JenniferBrown, on LinkedIn, and on her agency website at: jenniferbrownconsulting.com, where those interested in DEI information can find the agency’s DEI foundations program. ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk. I am joined live at South by Southwest by Jennifer Brown of Jennifer Brown Consulting based out of New York, New York. Welcome to the podcast, Jennifer. JENNIFER: Thank you, Rob. ROB: So good to have you on here. Why don’t you start out by telling us about the firm, about Jennifer Brown Consulting? What is your calling card? JENNIFER: The firm I founded 20 years ago. It’s a DEI strategy and training company. We work with companies, medium-size and large typically, to help them build their diversity, equity, & inclusion strategy from the top down and help also set up what’s called affinity groups and make sure they’re effective and well-aligned. We also do a lot of education around inclusive leadership. I have an amazing group of consultants who are, at any given time, working on client projects. And then I do a lot of keynoting – virtual, but now increasingly in person, I’m glad to say . . . as we come out of this into a new variant, I just read yesterday. [laughs] ROB: Last night, yes. JENNIFER: But anyway, I also love writing books. I just co-authored my third book with Rohit Bhargava, Beyond Diversity, and then I have a second edition of How to Be an Inclusive Leader, which was my book from 2019. I have a second edition of that coming out in October of 2022, which I’m really excited about. ROB: Congratulations on the book. Rohit was a guest three years ago, the last time we were recording live at SXSW, and then we all skipped a couple of years because of that COVID thing we were just talking about. As you’re engaging with these firms – you mentioned medium and larger firms – at what point are they coming to you these days? What do they know? What are they doing right? What are the blind spots? JENNIFER: There was a huge wake-up call in spring/summer of 2020 on multiple levels. I think the big one for us, obviously, was George Floyd murder and the social movement that occurred and is still occurring. A massive shift in attention and prioritization of the fact that the workplace as it is currently is not built by and for so many of us, if we basically don’t fit a certain demographic. Finally – we’ve been talking about this for many, many years – finally there was attention and resources available. For the last couple of years, our firm has doubled in size and number of companies, and we’ve been incredibly busy. We were ready for this. This is the conversation we’ve been having for many years. I’m a member of the LGBTQ+ community, and I’ve been out for nearly 25 years – I’m dating myself. ROB: Early. JENNIFER: Early, early, when we were still arguing for domestic partner benefits with big companies. Those were the early days of my own activism. Then we grew Jennifer Brown Consulting to be a full-service DEI firm. So, they come to us now and say, “Okay, Jennifer, we get it. We know that it’s important. But we don’t know how to tackle this, and we don’t know how to equip our leaders with the skills and also to awaken their motivation to care about this.” But really, Rob, I’m so excited that it’s not a “why” conversation; it’s a “how” conversation now. We all are a little bit worried that the urgency is flagging as the world continues to be so chaotic and business priorities shift around, so we’re trying to really make sure the burning platform of this remains on fire in people’s minds. We know it’s on fire, but it’s easy to move on and say, “We got this. We’re doing enough.” But I can tell you no company is doing enough. ROB: Right. You have two lanes. A lot of companies are going to install somebody with a title in DEI at some level, and then there’s actually integrating it into the cadence of the firm. How do you make sure it sticks? How do you keep it from regressing to “business as usual” plus somebody with a title? JENNIFER: I think the way we speak about why this is urgent really matters, and how it can drive business. It drives innovation. Literally, if people feel welcomed, valued, respected, and heard, and a deep sense of belonging and being treated equitably – which means those day-to-day support mechanisms, resources, pay equity, all that good stuff – they do better work. And they stay longer. We’re in the midst of a talent crisis. Literally, it is the Great Resignation, and I can tell you from my point of view, it has a lot of reasons, but one of the big reasons is toxic workplaces – workplaces that feel like “I go through my day and I don’t see anyone that looks like me. I don’t feel trusted or trusting of others. I have one foot out the door for something better.” So, culture can be a differentiator, and belonging can and should be a differentiator to keep great talent. But I can tell you, the workplace needs to be overhauled to be a welcoming place for so many of us. I mean, just LGBT people, half of us are still closeted in the workplace. That is a statistic from 2019. And even in the virtual world, I wonder how it’s changed; I don’t know. But we are not bringing our full selves to work. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg in terms of all the identities that aren’t bringing their full selves. ROB: For sure. There’s part of me that says, what company wouldn’t be welcoming in some way? But that’s the tip of the spear of the question, I am sure. You mentioned even the structure of the workplace. As we’re resetting and coming back and a lot of companies have been virtual, what opportunities to set up an equitable workplace can companies do as they’re rebuilding what it means to be in an office from scratch, what their work expectations are from scratch? What are the opportunity points? What can they do today that would’ve been hard for them to do two, three years ago, and now it’s like “No, don’t do this again when you come back”? JENNIFER: Well, let’s see. So many things. We went to an open office plan for a while. That was the thing. But now data has shown that actually, that’s really hard for people to be productive in. Also, the physical office was not a comfortable place. So, virtualizing ourselves actually opened up a sense of safety for a lot of people who found the physical workplace unsafe. I think we have to carry that with us and remember that that is a critical thing to leverage. But then new diversity dimensions are opening up, like who’s on site? Who’s able to get face time? Who’s able to get on somebody’s calendar or bump into somebody? There’s the haves and have-nots that’s opened up. In some companies, the virtual employees are the haves, actually, that are getting the flexible arrangement, and then the people who have to come into the office – but you can actually see it in the reverse, who has access to leadership. If leadership’s in the office, that could benefit you. It really depends on the company. I tell managers, we have to up our inclusivity vigilance. When we are managing blended teams, hybrid and in-person, we’ve got to ensure inclusion constantly and be checking in with people who are virtual because we may not know they are on the bubble in terms of their own engagement and loyalty. And what we don’t know can really hurt us, and often when it comes to diversity dimensions, what you don’t know can make the difference between keeping that person and having them leave and being surprised. So virtually, we just have to be checking in, asking how people are. The most powerful question is something like “Do you feel included and valued in the way that we’re working right now? Is this working for you? Do you feel you can thrive? Do you feel there are barriers? What can I do as your colleague, as your leader, as your manager, to address any barriers that you’re experiencing so that you can do your best work? I think asking that often will build the trust and tell us what we need to know so we can architect a better situation for people. ROB: This is the second conversation I’ve had this week where what you’re describing sounds like being a good manager. JENNIFER: Doesn’t it? Strange, that. [laughs] ROB: It doesn’t sound like anything to do in some ways with particular topics of diversity, equity, inclusion, while at the same time I think what’s underpinning there is there’s an assumption of commonality that allows people to get by without managing well. Is that fair to say? JENNIFER: Yes, fair to say. Intersectionality speaks to all the different diversity dimensions that live in a human being. And there’s multiple things going on. I’m a parent. I identify as queer. I’m caregiving. I’m wrestling with mental health challenges. I’m Latinx. All of those things have an impact on our belonging. In most organizations, there’s some angst and some difficulty there because, like I said earlier, workplaces are biased. Period. Any one of those things or a combination of those things may be going on for someone. They may be hearing microaggressions. They may be being harassed virtually. Unfortunately, I hate to say this – harassment has gone up in the virtual workplace. ROB: Wow. JENNIFER: There are no witnesses. Think about this. There’s a lack of understanding of how to escalate a complaint and whether you trust your company enough to handle the complaint. When we virtualize employees, they’re cut off from information, often, that may have been available and they would’ve known what sort of avenues exist. I found this harassment data really disturbing, honestly. Anyway, there’s a lot of risks. Like I said, as a manager and a leader, to have somebody’s identities in mind and be able to anticipate, “What’s going on for this person? How can I get them to trust me enough to share with me so that I can help?” – and even if that means suggesting that somebody go to HR, suggesting that somebody seek out the EAP for mental health support. I mean, just connecting the dots is so much of our job these days, and it’s been made more difficult when we’re out of the loop with each other. That’s a dangerous place to be. ROB: Absolutely. You mentioned affinity groups as a key component. What does that look like, building from scratch? How do you get from zero to something there? JENNIFER: It’s funny; back in the day, only large companies had affinity groups, and they’re like the LGBT Network, the Women’s Network, the Black Network, the Asian-American Network, Disabilities, Veterans. In big companies, there’s a lot. But since two years ago and everything crescendoing, even the smaller and medium-size companies now have affinity groups, and they understand that these groups are literally sources of intelligence about cultural experience in our workplace – what’s going well, what’s going wrong, what needs to be supported, resourced, which talent exists. Sometimes people in affinity groups are the ones that are overlooked in the talent pipeline because of bias in our hiring, promotion, advancement, talent reviews. So, affinity groups are really important mechanisms to enable people to find community, especially virtually, to share what’s going on and not feel so alone, to strategize about how to be heard in a workplace that is maybe not conscious of its own bias, and then also provide that identity intelligence to the employer to say, “Hey, this community is feeling this now.” For example, Stop Asian Hate wasn’t just in 2020. It’s actually been increasing and getting worse over this last year and the year before. And yet employers aren’t prioritizing it. If it weren’t for the affinity groups that are keeping it top of mind and saying, “Hey, this is a problem” – our employees are bringing this into the workplace every day and walking around with this, if they’re commuting or in their communities or in their families. People are afraid, and they expect their employer to address it and to know that it’s happening and to say, “What can we, the employer, do to support you, to raise awareness, and to make a statement?” Honestly, employers also, by the way, need to be making statements about a variety of social issues right now. Otherwise, silence – look what happened to Disney not saying anything about the Don’t Say Gay activities in Florida. Their employees have been so upset and writing letters to the CEO and agitating, and finally the CEO wrote a memo and it just broke yesterday on Twitter. But it took a long time, and it shouldn’t take a long time. Companies should have their employees’ backs. Period. ROB: And then it’s even harder when you do actually say something – the rubric against which it is measured at that point is so much harder. JENNIFER: Oh yeah. There’s a lot of issues, granted. But this is the world we live in. Certainly, I hear from leaders, “Jennifer, where does it stop?” I’m like, “This is your new normal. It doesn’t stop. But by the way, this is an opportunity to connect with your employees on a deep” – when I feel seen and heard and valued, this is what it means. If my CEO is silent on a harmful bill to me and my community, I am out the door. I can’t describe – it’s like a visceral thing. Like “I can’t work here anymore. This company doesn’t see me, doesn’t care about what’s happening to people that identify like I do.” Employees are finding their voice in a way that I have been waiting for for a really long time. So really, the problem is leadership is really behind. They don’t have the competency. They’re not able to pivot quickly. They’re like, “I can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.” I’m like, no, this needs to be your new leadership skill. You have to be able to know, to be scanning your environment all the time and saying “What do I need to make sure our employees know that we’re not okay with?” That needs to be the first thing you wake up thinking about every day. ROB: This sounds like it ties into some of the dimensions of the book, so let’s go over that direction for a moment. Talk about the book, how it came to be – the book is Beyond Diversity with you and Rohid. How did this happen, and what should we know about it? You had a session here talking about the book. What should people know? JENNIFER: Yeah, we did. It was so great. It came out of a five-day Beyond Diversity Summit, literally, with 200 speakers. Rohid approached me. I was one of those folks part of organizing it, and he’s like, “This needs to be a book.” I was like, “Oh no, 200 speakers, hours and hours of footage. How do we boil this down into a book? It’s terrifying. My team will never forgive me.” However, we said yes, let’s do it. We organized all of this footage into 12 themes, and those are the chapters. They’re not identity themes. We could’ve gone that way. We could’ve done “This is the chapter on LGBTQ+. This is the chapter on Asian-Americans and AAPI folks.” Instead, we did education, media, workplace, storytelling, government, family. It was so cool to take all of that wisdom from a wide array of diverse storytellers in every way and figure out, where do we tell this story, that story, that story? I loved the challenge of that. I think also, “beyond diversity” to me perhaps means, yes, identity diversity, but let’s look at how this plays out in these domains of life that really touch our lives every single day. We can all relate to education. We can all relate to what’s happening in media. I hope the book reaches people who have dismissed this topic maybe in the past, but they pick it up and they’re like, “Oh, this book makes sense to me. This is relevant to my life holistically.” And it’s such a positive book. It’s not a “shame and blame” book. It is full of celebrations of where innovation is occurring and how exciting it is and how it’s going to better our world. I think it’s a really different kind of book, and I hope it finds all kinds of audiences. I think it should be in curriculum in schools. Professors should be assigning it. My parents, in their eighties, tell me it’s the best book I’ve ever written. They love it. They’re reading it and they’re able to understand it. ROB: It is very, very approachable in the structure. It’s just made so that you can come in, engage with it at whatever depth you want to – not that you want to treat it like a dictionary and shop by topic, or an encyclopedia, but there is that ability. There’s skimmability. There’s summary. But that facilitates approaching it easily, but also the education context. You open it up, and it’s credible – this book was made by people who were making a business book, not just like “my opinion and here you go.” It wasn’t a memoir. JENNIFER: Yes, exactly. We actually really intentionally decentered ourselves. Even though we were writing the book, we gathered this big writing team also. So all of their hands are on the writing. And then we hired also inclusivity readers, otherwise known as sensitivity readers, because Rohit and I and the other writers knew we would still not perceive the correct language, for example. They went through the book and gave us tons of feedback. It was just a wonderful learning experience. But the book literally is all about different storytellers – unusual, unexpected, nonobvious storytellers. I hear myself talk all day, but I want their voice to be out there, and I think we were both in service of that. ROB: It is excellent. You get in deep, and then there’s the contributor list – obviously voluminous, for sure. JENNIFER: Yes. ROB: Jennifer, let’s rewind a little bit. Let’s talk about where Jennifer Brown Consulting came from. What made you decide that you should not have a job with somebody else and you should build something, and who knows where it goes? Especially with the past couple of years with that growth now. But where did it start? JENNIFER: It started because being in the LGBTQ+ community in my early days, really way back, I was an opera singer. ROB: Wow. JENNIFER: I came to New York to make it, and then my voice kept getting injured and I had to get vocal surgery several times to repair it, but it would never – I realized my instrument just wouldn’t ever do what it needed to do, and I would have to reinvent. I found my way to – I like to think of it now as a different stage, literally. I’m a keynoter now. I’m able to use my love of the stage – which I’ve been on stage since I was five; I grew up in a really musical family, and we are like the Von Trapp Family Singers. [laughs] ROB: Yeah, it came to my mind as soon as you said it. [laughs] JENNIFER: I was that kid. So I seek the stage. I love it. I crave it. I enjoy it. I’m comfortable on it. I think it’s the best medium for me. Anyway, though, as a closeted person who was trying to find my voice, I found in those early days all of these amazing companies in New York – IBM, Deloitte, Proctor and Gamble – I didn’t even know this world existed, but it was the world of corporations that were leading-edge in terms of LGBTQ equality. They were all starting to vie for us as talent and then also trying to vie for us as customers. I had a front seat years ago on those early battles for domestic partner benefits, for adding sexual orientation and gender identity to the non-discrimination policies and the language of the company. Their statements used to not include that. I hope people are hearing this and being like, “Wow, I’ve always taken that for granted, and I didn’t know there was a time that wasn’t there.” But I can tell you, there was a time. And those were really exciting days. I feel like I cut my teeth on – the way that LGBTQ employees shifted companies was super powerful for me to see and be a part of because I think it clicked that I could be a voice for change, and that change would actually happen in this massive entity with just my voice, or just the voice of a community. We were very strategic in the way we approached it. We argued the case around talent retention and recruitment. We argued the business case for customers. It trained me to think about how large institutions change and why they change, and because of what, and how to be an irritant in the system but to be strategic and grounded in their “care abouts” where it’s a win-win. That is something I’ve carried with me as we built Jennifer Brown Consulting, and I would subsequently leave corporate America. I was an employee, like you say, and I was like, “This is not creative enough for me. I don’t have enough agency. I can’t have a boss. I have to start my own firm.” Very quickly, when I put my shingle out – I’m kind of a natural marketer – it became much bigger than I could manage. I started to hire people. I started to send people in instead of me and started to scale my company. In fact, one of my first hires was a COO, and I really dug deep to pay somebody six figures to build my entire backend because I knew – I was like, I don’t know how to do this. And I don’t want to. I need to be out there, doing what I do best in my zone of genius, which was evangelizing for the idea of the firm and also putting forth not just me, but all these talented consultants that I was able to attract and send in on our behalf to the clients that I had procured. It worked really well. I always felt it was important to work on the business, not in the business. So from the very beginning days, I was like, how does this scale? And then how do I find my way into my best role? And I’m there now. ROB: How many people did you have when you hired your COO, and were they somebody that had done that job before? JENNIFER: Like three people. And yes, they had scaled my friend’s firm, a marketing agency. They had allowed her and enabled her to focus on the creative. Founders are often not the backend people. We’re the salespeople. We get the attention. We know how to do that. So, he had done that, and I took the plunge and said, “Please, get everybody paid on time. Do job descriptions. Help me figure out who’s my first, second, and third hire. Who should that be? Help me run my finances responsibility. Get us a bookkeeper and do QuickBooks and set up…” – whatever, there’s just so much you have to think about. I never regretted it. Subsequently, I’ve gone through four or five COOs over 20 years. ROB: But the role is necessary. JENNIFER: Yep, and I really recommend it. If you think you’ve got a tiger by the tail, like I thought I did – and I had no idea what that really would feel like until 2020 – but up until that time, I was evangelizing this idea that belonging is important for all of these dimensions. Better products, better services, better customer relationships, better design. More retention. Losing people is so expensive for companies, and they don’t see it as that. It’s sort of this invisible cost of attrition. I mean, now they know. But I think it’s been happening for years because many of us have been bailing out and becoming entrepreneurs because we literally were like, “I can’t stand another day here.” Anyway, it’s a big wakeup call and I’m here for it. ROB: Absolutely. I hear you on the COO side. Our sixth employee was an operations role, and she’s moved up to COO. It was terrifying. I started off thinking I wanted just a junior project manager / order-taker / “do stuff for me,” and then I was persuaded by some advisors to spend the money. But it was terrifying. JENNIFER: How’s she doing and feeling? ROB: She’s moved up. It’s great. It’s a relief because I’m out here talking to people, and things still happen back home on the home front. JENNIFER: I want to share – maybe this will be interesting for your audience – my name is on the name of the consulting business, right? It’s Jennifer Brown Consulting. We refer to ourselves as JBC. But we have transcended that question I always get, which is “Don’t people expect you?” They don’t, actually. They know about me, but they don’t expect me to be on the calls. We’ve scaled ourselves to such a level that the team is completely empowered and completely the star of the show, and I’m not involved unless there’s a keynote that’s needed and wanted or an executive session. I’m off writing the books that hopefully draw attention to us. It’s just an interesting thing I know founders wrestle with and thought leader-driven brands. It’s this interesting question that always comes up. But I think we’ve done it really well. I think the secret is it’s always been my plan and it’s always been my expectation. I have said very clearly, it’s not about me. I’m not even the most practiced expert in my company, and I never have been. My consultants are incredible, and they will solve problems differently than I will in any client engagement. They are bringing their own 30 years of looking at these things, and they have different identities than I do, and they have that lived experience that they can bring. So, it’s worked really well, and it’s enabled me to pull out of the day to day and speak and write, which I do think is what I have been, all these years, preparing to do. ROB: Was it easier or harder, those first couple of engagements when you were tagging someone else in? JENNIFER: I remember. If I’m on the phone, if I’m involved, how can somebody feel that they’re in charge of the gig? The client is always going to be looking to me as the authority, and I don’t want to be looked at as the authority. I had to be really careful in the early days of this transition of what I was a part of – that they even met me. I minimized that. [laughs] I was like, “Nope, you don’t need to talk to me. Thanks for the inquiry. I’m introducing you right away to my team. They will take care of you.” We still actually do this because stuff still finds its way to me. But we’re very strict, and we have protocols that we follow. I never break those because it’s super important for me that my team can take care of whatever you need. I’m almost like a consultant now. The team is in charge and knows what to bring me and when that’s needed. Also, for me and my wants and needs, I don’t want to be in the day-to-day client work anymore, and I haven’t wanted to be for many years. That’s not what brings me fulfillment. So, I think for founders, commit to and dig deep to seek – know what you don’t want to do, but what you want your firm to still do. That’s so important. Just pay attention to that and then dig deep financially and wherever else you have to dig to staff around the work you want the group to do as a delivery but is not work you directly want to be involved in. And then make sure you’re not sending mixed messages and that you’re truly empowering the people you’ve hired to go and be brilliant. ROB: I hear you talking about handing over two separate sets of responsibilities at least, which are doubly nerve-wracking. You’re talking about handing over the delivery of the work, but you’re also talking about handing over the selling of the work. JENNIFER: Yeah. We’re interesting because our folks don’t do business development. I have been in the space for so long that our amazing marketing team who helps me get the word out – we provide so much value. We have so many opportunities to read our thought leadership, join our calls, be a part of our JBC community, that we get a lot of inbound. One of the things I’ve learned is you cannot force people to be salespeople if that is not what they do. I understood my role very early on. I’m here to build the house that people can live in and make sure the bills are paid and whatever, taking care of the container and making sure there’s enough opportunity coming in for people to focus on being the subject matter expert and delivering the work and taking care of the relationship. We have a sales team, but they field a lot. They really more operate as “Now we have an opportunity; what is the scope? What is the statement of work? How do we price it? Who do we put on it? What’s the team going to be that delivers it?” That is what happens after we receive an interest or a lead. It was the way I got around sales, honestly, because the only kind of sales I’m really comfortable with is this back-door way of putting myself in conversations, adding value, moderating panels endlessly – which is what I did for years, just going to conferences and being in the room, speaking up and offering to be helpful. And over time, now it’s like, “We’ve wanted to work with you and your team for years. We finally have the budget!” But years and years and years of people watching us grow, and now it’s amazing to get these calls from people that saw me speak 10 years ago or were in the room.  ROB: You can’t be transactional about that. That’s playing the long game. JENNIFER: It’s reputation, it’s trust, and it’s generosity. We’ve been so, so generous. That’s my MO. I see myself as part of the field. I think of it as we are a field of practitioners, and even if we’re competitors, we’re not. We all stay in touch with each other. When we hang out, other heads of firms, it’s like this amazing, really rich conversation because it’s a moment. This is purpose work. And people will find the firms that they feel the most comfort with for what they need. But honestly, it’s co-opetition. I’ve heard that word, and I think that really speaks to that, at the end of the day, we’re part of a movement and advocacy and whoever does the work, we deeply care that the work is done. ROB: Absolutely. I can see clearly that you deeply care and you have a team that does. Jennifer, when people want to find you and JBC, where should they go to find you? JENNIFER: Thanks for asking. Amazon has all my books, and then on Instagram, I’m @JenniferBrownSpeaks. I’m on LinkedIn. Twitter, I’m @JenniferBrown. Yes, I was on Twitter many, many, many years ago. ROB: Well played. JENNIFER: Well played. [laughs] And then jenniferbrownconsulting.com is our website. I just want to say if you’re a new practitioner or an aspiring DEI professional, you should really check out our online courses. We’re building our foundations program and rolling that out. It’s just a wonderful six-week “get yourself grounded and work on your personal diversity story.” ROB: That even scales down to some people who maybe aren’t midmarket enough to pay for you. Excellent. JENNIFER: Exactly. You understand. ROB: I do understand. JENNIFER: Thank you. ROB: Jennifer, thank you so much for meeting up and coming on the podcast and helping us learn well in your expertise. JENNIFER: It’s a pleasure. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

4/14/22 • 33:53

Shep Ogden, CEO and Co-founder, Offbeat Media Group (Atlanta, GA) Shep Ogden is CEO and Co-founder of Offbeat Media Group, an agency that helps “some of the biggest brands in the world figure out how to use TikTok, Web3, and meme marketing to reach Gen Z customers. Originally, the college friends who started the agency owned and operated an Instagram account, Humor, which drew four million followers . . . and a lot of interest from brands that wanted to partner with the account. The agency moved from working with memes to working with influencers, and from there, to developing virtual influencers. Today, the agency’s clients are typically the 10% of businesses that “are constantly looking for that new thing.” When the partners realized the Humor account did not have an associated “face,” they decided to build one virtually. For the past few years, Offbeat has been working to establish “virtual influencers” to serve as identities behind “faceless” accounts. Virtual influencer development is what the agency is best known for today “and its clients are typically the 10% of businesses that “are constantly looking for that new thing.”  Shep says that today’s photorealistic virtual influencers “don’t look 100% real yet” and the technology to perfect them is extremely expensive. The other end of the spectrum, cartoony caricatures, does not work as well as stylized animated characters that “are not meant to trick you,” but to serve as characters “to tell a story” using “humanized responses and emotions.” The first of seven stylized virtual influencers the agency is creating for Nexus, named “Zero,” launched on Twitter in February and has drawn the interest of major investors. The agency’s content studio creates a constant stream of content on the internet (mostly on places like TikTok and Snapchat) with close to a dozen shows that reach hundreds of millions of people monthly. By building virtual influencers and developing an NFT (nonfungible token) project for themselves, then iterating, testing, and innovating to improve their “product,” the agency demonstrates that it “gets” the new technology. The shows are monetized when platform partners direct ads their known audiences and share the revenues with Offbeat. The agency plans to sell NFTs to crowdsource virtual influencers’ story development, help “build community,” and further monetize the agency’s work. Shep talked about the intersection of the virtual influencer industry, Web3, digital ownership, and NFTs at the 2022 South by Southwest Conference. After his presentation, “The Future of Influence Doesn’t Involve Humans,” he brought Nexus’s Zero up on stage, on screen, to converse, unscripted, with entrepreneur Mark Cuban. Shep says the goals for his presentation were to: introduce the virtual influencer industry, establish Web3 for the audience, discuss how these two intersect, explain the agency’s work and the thought behind the Nexus universe growing around Zero, and show the stuff in action. Shep can be found on LinkedIn as Shep Ogden. Offbeat Media Group is also on LinkedIn. The Offbeat-owned website, VirtualHumans.org, serves as the industry-leading website on virtual influencers. For those interested in the development of Zero, follow @ZeroFromNexus on Twitter.  Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I’m joined today live at South by Southwest, interactive, by Shep Ogden, CEO and Co-founder of Offbeat Media Group based in Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome to the podcast, Shep. SHEP: Awesome, Rob. Thanks so much for having me. I’m having a blast. ROB: It’s good to have you here. It’s always fun to have these people we know in Atlanta – we know each other, but we’re in Austin and getting together to talk. It’s all well, good, and fun, but why don’t you start off by telling us about Offbeat Media Group and what is your superpower? What’s your calling card? SHEP: Our superpower has changed over the last few years. It’s been a really fun experience. I’d like to back up and give you the quick origin story. We started this business while we were in college. We owned and operated an account called Humor on Instagram with about four million followers. It was a really large meme and viral community, basically. It was something that we started for fun and then it turned into something that brands really wanted to partner with us on. The next thing you know, we’re helping some of the biggest brands in the world figure out how to reach Gen Z and how to do meme marketing and how to tap into an account like Humor, but also hundreds of others and then thousands of others. That led to us working with a ton of influencers, moving from just meme accounts to influencers, which then led to this whole new crazy idea, which I think is our superpower, of virtual influencers – taking this concept of an account like Humor that has millions of followers but doesn’t have a face attached to it and thinking about that, but doing it with a virtual face. Building an account, building a personality, building something that someone wants to follow, but giving an identity behind it – that’s the idea of a virtual influencer, and we’ve been doing that for the last few years. It’s definitely what we’re known for most now. ROB: It might sound a little bit out there to the audience; is this an influencer who is obviously not real? Or do they appear real? How does that happen? SHEP: That’s a great question. Sometimes it’s both. There’s photorealistic virtual influencers that look pretty real. They don’t look 100% real yet. There are ways to make it look 100% real, but it’s very, very expensive. What we like to do, and what we’ve seen work much, much better with the audience across the board is more of a stylized animated character. We recently launched Zero for Nexus on Twitter, who you saw, I know. He’s a stylized character. While he has very humanlike responses and emotions, and when he talks to people you get that human feeling from him, you also know instantly that he’s not meant to be real. He’s not meant to trick you. He’s just here as a character to tell a story. I think that’s what works really well in this space. ROB: And it sort of helps you get past the uncanny valley problem when they look stylized versus real. How do you go about thinking about who this character is, though? I suppose every influencer to an extent has to decide who their persona is, but you’re writing a script from nothing. Or is it rooted in something real? SHEP: That’s a great question. With Zero, it’s not rooted really in anything real, but the way we counteract that and think about that is we’re including the community. A real influencer has a real backstory and has a real life, and you can’t really change their backstory, change their life. They are who they are. But with a virtual influencer, we’re writing lore for Zero. Who is Zero? What’s his background? But we’re including the community that follows him now. The thousands of people following him and engaging with his content are helping us make this decision. We can do a top-level, “Hey, is it A, B, or C? What do you like better?” and then someone on our team will go deep into that concept and bring it to life when our community says, “We really like this direction.” We crowdsource it. We crowdsource the storytelling of these type of characters, which I think also gives the fans more satisfaction seeing them brought to life. ROB: You mentioned hundreds and thousands of these accounts before on more of the Humor and accounts like that, the non-influencer side. How many influencers are you running? How many do you want to run? SHEP: Virtual influencers? ROB: Yep. SHEP: Right now, we’re running one. We launched in February, Zero. We did a lot of tests over the last few years of different types, like we talked about photorealistic, we talked about some more cartoony, but stylized is what we landed on. We built some really cool tech over the last 12 months that allows us to power these influencers in real time where you could have a conversation with them on video, and there’s no animator needed. It’s all happening from our studio in Atlanta. So, we have Zero from Nexus and that’s our main one right now. Zero is part of the Nexus universe. Our approach towards an entertainment brand. We plan on fully decentralizing. I mentioned our community, community involvement, community governance, and helping us make decisions. We actually do plan on giving NFTs to the community, one day possibly a token where people can have ownership as well as governance of this overarching community. Over the next 18 months in this entertainment brand, we plan on launching six more. So, there’ll be seven different virtual influencers or virtual creators within it that are engaging with each other, interacting with each other, and then telling a story is the biggest thing. ROB: When you talk about a universe like this, you talk about an entertainment brand, what would be a parallel of something that’s already established that people might think about? Is this like a Fortnite ecosystem? Is this like a Roblox? What level does that brand rise to? Or is it like a sub-brand within Disney and you might have multiple of these universes? SHEP: That. That’s spot on, that last one. The way we look at it is Offbeat Media Group as a company, we do have different arms for our business. We talked a bit about helping brands figure out TikTok and Web3 and memes. That’s our agency. We have a content studio that we haven’t talked a ton about, but we create a ton of content across the internet. We have nearly a dozen shows across the internet that reach hundreds of millions of people every month. But with the Nexus universe, we built really cool tech to power that. That’s our first jump into building out this entertainment brand. We think about that as something like the Marvel Universe. That would be someone we really look up to. We can tell a story for decades to come and we can include the audience in helping us make some of the bigger decisions within that story. But what’s really unique about it is because we have this tech that allows people to interact with our characters in real time on a Zoom call or on Twitch, they can do that with these characters. If you think about Marvel Universe and Captain America or Thor or someone like that, you’re not going to get content from Thor, but once every two years, once they release a movie. He’s not on social media. He’s not on Twitch. You can’t hop on a podcast with him. Maybe the actor, but not actually Thor, the character, because that would cost a ton of money for Marvel Universe to have Thor always on. So that’s our concept. We can tell the story, a cinematic story, just as you would see with something like that, but you can also get day-to-day interaction with our characters. ROB: You mentioned the agency off to the side; I know a lot of your vision is pulling forward on what you’re doing with this universe, but I think it might be easy for someone listening to actually underestimate that you have a substantive business. You’ve built a real deal agency and business underneath all of this. Someone might wonder, you’re building this science experiment; how do you pay the bills? What’s the day-to-day of what makes things operate well that allows you to also invest in the future? SHEP: That’s a great question. You’re spot on. Our agency does really well. It’s growing. We have an awesome general manager, Michael Heaven, who has really taken charge and leadership of it. He came from one of the fastest-growing agencies of the last decade, was employee #7 at Social Chain, went to about 700, and then left and came and joined us after opening quite a few offices for them. The way we look at it is – I’ll say first off, I’m in one of the few roles where being a 26-year-old CEO is a positive. People come to us and say, “Yeah, this guy probably gets it. He probably understands memes. He probably understands TikTok and is pretty much a pro.” Now, over the last couple years, we’ve been doing virtual influencers and we’ve been looking at NFTs and whatnot. Same thing there. People are like, “Okay, they probably get it. They’re a pretty young and innovative team.” But then we’re also showcasing to people that we do get it. We’re building virtual influencers for ourselves. We’re building an NFT project for ourselves. We’re creating content nonstop on the internet, like I mentioned earlier, with the content studio. Both of those fuel interest in what we’re doing. We’re not your typical agency that just does services for others; we’re iterating, we’re testing, we’re innovating every single day, like “How do we do this better for ourselves?” Then once we build that playbook for ourselves, we have a team that’s ready to take that playbook and do it for brands. So that’s why we have both of these. In the day-to-day, we’re innovating on content that we can do internally. Once we find something’s working, we ship it over to the agency and we’re like, “Hey, no one else is doing this yet, but we just had it work really, really well for us. Let’s roll this out.” ROB: How much of the media that you produce ends up being something that you can integrate a client/a brand into versus how much of it is a proof of capability that serves as marketing? Do you bring the brands into some of these, your Humor channels, and some of that? Or is it all “We saw that you could do this, now please do this for us but under our umbrella”? SHEP: It depends on the asset. With Humor, on Instagram, the one with about four million followers, we integrate brands into that all the time. We create memes, we partner with comedians, we partner with viral influencers, and we can take their branded content or we can make a branded meme and integrate it into this community really, really easily. With the shows – I mentioned we have about a dozen shows – most of those are on places like TikTok and Snapchat. We don’t integrate brands into those. The way that works is we are partnered with the platform, so we’re making money from programmatic advertising. When someone’s watching our show, Snapchat knows the audience watching the show. They’re running ads, and then we have a rev share deal with them. So, we don’t have to go sell ads for that stuff. We’re not really trying to turn into a production company for brands. Most of the stuff we’re producing is either lightweight or partnered with an influencer. And then on the virtual influencer front, first and foremost, we’re building a community. We expect that community to be a part of what we’re doing. We plan on selling them NFTs. We plan on giving them governance of what we’re building. We can monetize it through content. But with Zero and the virtual influencers, that is a perfect branded integration play, too. We’ve done a great job with his lore, where he’s got a portal in his universe that he can send things through one day, but things can already be sent to him. For example, Samsung sent him their new most recent phone, and it’s now his new most favorite thing. He’s constantly hopping on a selfie video, and it’s always with a Samsung. That’s a way that we split how we think about branded versus not. ROB: How did they find you? Or how did you find them? This is an experiment for a brand. SHEP: Yeah. I was talking to somebody yesterday and they talked about how brands are typically in a 70%, 20%, 10% kind of mindset where that 10% is the ones that are constantly looking for that new thing. We usually work with those 10%. We own and operate a website called VirtualHumans.org. It is the industry-leading website about all things virtual influencers. There’s nothing else out there like it. Three years ago, two and a half years ago, when we got really excited about this space, we saw that everyone was writing about it from a journalist standpoint, but there was nowhere to actually learn about the industry. There was always the same one, two, three virtual influencers mentioned, yet here we are finding 50, finding 60. It’s like, why can’t I find anywhere to actually learn about this industry? How are the players in it? What are they doing? How are they doing it? So, we build that website for the industry, and that has connected us with major investors, major brands, major partners, every team in the space. Anyone interested in the space typically comes to us, inbound, wanting to network. ROB: There’s a recurring theme here. We see you continue to build a platform that proves what you’re able to do, that people want to be a part of, whether that’s on some of the meme accounts, whether that’s on Virtual Humans, now with Zero. Where did that disposition towards building content platforms come from? You guys started when you were in school. Were you in film? Were you in some sort of creative endeavor? Was it just a natural, organic “this is where social is now” and who you are demographically? SHEP: I think it was fun for all of us. Bailey, Christopher, and myself are the main three day-to-day partners. We also have Kevin Planovosky, who’s an advisor of ours and an early partner. All of us went to the University of Georgia. But specifically, Bailey, Christopher, and I all had our own Instagram accounts that weren’t ourselves. Christopher ran a social media app for a while that had hundreds of thousands of users, and then when that ended up not working out, he pivoted to social media accounts and had tens of thousands of followers. I had this idea that you could – I owned a lot of states on Instagram, like Alabama, West Virginia, Iowa, South Carolina, and then cities and some countries, even. People just started following them, and it gave me authority because I owned the state username. It was almost as if I was the state. So, it gave me a lot of authority. I just thought it was really cool and I was learning really quickly how to gain tens and then hundreds of thousands of followers, and then met Bailey, who was doing the same thing. He was making memes. He was just posting memes and making memes. We were like, man, we think we could make money doing this, like real money. That’s when we all partnered up with some experiments, and the next you know, it actually turned into a real business. Something that started as something cool to us. ROB: It’s lightning in a bottle with some people. Kevin’s a former guest on the podcast as well. Recorded that one live and in person at the Vert Office. That was pretty fun. Did any or all of you come from any entrepreneurial background? Was there a seed planted early for you? SHEP: Yeah, great question. Bailey has such a unique story. I wish he was here to tell it. Really, his origin story was he wanted to get a truck when he was 16 and he wanted a nice one, and his parents told him they’d pay for half of it. But if he wanted a nice one, he was going to have to figure out how to make the other half. He was 14-15 years old with no real money, and he started flipping cards or flipping sunglasses or something on eBay, and then heard about this guy in high school making real money, thousands of dollars, with Twitter accounts. So, he went and used all of his money from selling sunglasses and flipping other items to buy a couple really big Twitter accounts and start monetizing that. Next thing you know – he didn’t realize he was becoming an entrepreneur, but he did. It just snowballed from when he was 14 years old up to moving into memes and all across the board. So, he had a really cool story. I think Christopher found himself in a somewhat similar boat, really just wanting to build something special. And then my background is my family was a family of small-town entrepreneurs. My dad is probably the biggest hustler I know. I grew up and we owned small rentals, a car wash, a little shop, all the kinds of things like that in a small town of 10,000 people. I loved talking about business with him, and I’m 7-8 years old. I’m like, “How’d work go today?” and I’m asking him all about it. I think that set my foundation really, really strong. I knew I didn’t have to go and work for The Man. That’s how I learned it from my dad. He gave me a story where he went and worked for a year or two at a factory, basically, and his dad, who was also an entrepreneur, told him, “You’re wasting your time.” Which I don’t think is necessarily a fair characterization, but he left and he went and started his own business and he was much better off for that. So that really inspired me. I always knew that I could do that as well, like it was a possibility. I got to see that firsthand as a possibility. And then I studied entrepreneurship nonstop for most of my high school and college career and then jumped in. ROB: It’s three very different paths, and of course, Bailey’s reminds me – quite often, the entrepreneurs are the folks that were flipping candy or sunglasses or you name it in high school, and they end up starting something later. I would be remiss if we didn’t talk about the session that you’ve been here at SXSW to present. Did it yesterday, had a special guest up on stage with you. The session was “The Future of Influence Doesn’t Involve Humans.” What should people who weren’t there know about it? SHEP: I’ll say first off, I think we chose a little clickbait-y title to get people in there. Yes, while we were showing a virtual human, which technically isn’t a real human, there was a massive team working on that of all humans. So yeah, we had Mark Cuban join us. It was a really great experience. We got to really talk about the virtual influencer industry, talk about this new world of Web3 and digital ownership and NFTs and how this stuff’s going to intersect and tie into virtual influencers and how we think about using that ideology. Web3 ideology is a tool to let this community actually have ownership and governance of the virtual influencers we’re building. And then after we explained what this stuff was – we gave a quick definition of a virtual influencer, but it is a first-person identity built on the internet for the sake of influence. Could be for a friend, could be for yourself, could be an artist, whatever it is, but it is a first-person computer-generated character that thinks and acts as if they’re their own person. That’s a virtual influencer. Once we got through that, we’ve got to actually bring Zero up on stage, onscreen, and have him start talking to Mark Cuban and talking to us and engaging with the audience. That was I think one of the coolest experiences we’ve had as a company so far because so much of what we’ve been working on, like this idea that you can build an influencer that can engage with the world, was shown yesterday. I think the most unique thing about it was that nothing was pre-scripted. For anyone listening, typically to do what we did yesterday, to have a fully animated character engaging with someone and actually have it look real, you have a team of animators that are doing it in postproduction. They’re keyframe animating this stuff. But all of our stuff, all the tools that we’ve built, do all of it in real time. So yes, we have someone to motion capture, but that output looks crystal clear. ROB: Yeah, it was crisp. It worked. The technology worked. I was hoping you didn’t have to reboot Zero at any point. But I think had some doubts when you started doing the session, and when you’re interacting over Zoom with this character. I think people still felt like it might have been scripted, but you shared with me you didn’t even know what he was going to say and how he was going to introduce himself. Little worrisome even there, little fake robot voice just to creep everybody out. SHEP: Yeah, he came in – Zero’s on Twitter as @ZeroFromNexus and everyone keeps calling him an AI. So sometimes when he joins in on a Zoom, he loves messing with everyone and pretending to be a robot, and then he says, “I’m just kidding!” and he starts talking to you like a normal person. I think the crowd loved that. But yeah, we planned a lot of the conversation prior that we’d be having with Mark and talking about the industry, and then we planned to have Zero give us a tour of his bunker, but that was all free-flowing conversation. There was nothing scripted. I think even Mark was like, “How much of this is preplanned?” It’s like, zero. He starts asking Zero questions, and Zero’s just responding off the cuff. He just had all of it off the top of his head. ROB: It sounds a little bit like improv, really. You know the beats maybe that you might go through in a given skit. You might’ve talked some topics, you might’ve done some practice, but you didn’t practice what you were going to say; you just know the plot points you’re going to follow. SHEP: Exactly. The way we typically plan conversations like that – if we’re giving a presentation, that’s one thing; we’ll know almost to a ‘T’ what we’re going to say. Christopher, who was part of the SXSW pitch yesterday for us, knew exactly what he was going to say. For something like this, we had high-level goals. We had talking points under each goal, but goal #1, establish the virtual influencer industry to the audience. Goal #2, establish Web3 to the audience. And then goal #3, start telling them how these two intersect; goal #4, start talking about how we’re doing that and how we think about it with the Nexus universe we’re building with Zero. And then goal #5, actually show the stuff in action. So, we had high-level, “Cool, we’ve got an hour; we’re going to show this stuff.” Mark Cuban is an investor of ours, and he has a really impressive knowledge of exactly what we’re doing, so he was able to go off and riff on it with this as well. ROB: Yeah, he probably gives ideas from the stage sometimes where someone’s taking a note and being like, “Let’s put that in the mix too.” SHEP: Definitely. ROB: While this entire technical demo was going on – we’re trying to picture what’s going on behind the scenes – you have a whole studio set up in Atlanta that you’ve alluded to. I’m trying to draw metaphors. Actually, is there a way people can see the session yesterday or something like it, some reasonable recording of something like that to get a taste? Where can they go see something like that to start to understand what the experience is like? SHEP: We’re going to be on Twitch soon with Zero from Nexus. But right now, Twitter. If you look up @ZeroFromNexus, spelled how it sounds –  ROB: With a ‘Z,’ not with an ‘X’ if you’re feeling strange or fancy. SHEP: Right. You can see all of his content that he posts right now. And all of his stuff is done in real time. Because it’s posted on Twitter, we do have an editor that can cut pieces off and whatnot, but the actual content production takes as long as that clip takes. We’re able to move cameras around in real time. We click a button, the camera’s in a different spot. We’re able to teleport him around. We’re able to move him all around the bunker. He lives in a bunker. [laughs] ROB: For now. SHEP: Yeah, for now. But we’re able to do all of that in real time. I think his Twitter is probably the best case to see that right now. ROB: Who all is involved today? Is there a voice actor? Is there a body actor? Are they the same person? Virtual cameraman? Is somebody pushing magic buttons for teleporting? Who’s involved in making a Zero moment right now? SHEP: There’s a voice actor that’s also the motion capture artist. And then we have our head of content, who’s also helping go deep in the content we’re producing. We have our tech director, which is typically the one processing those buttons like, “Cool, we’re about to teleport, we’re about to get a new camera scene.” So yeah, it’s a pretty lean team of about three fully focused on character, and then we have a couple more in the studio, typically, that are supporting and working on things. To have one of these characters up and running, though, it takes two to three people. ROB: It’s amazingly in real time. I could almost picture different places – I imagine a lot of people would want to use this – you could imagine having an Instagram live with Gollum from Lord of the Rings. You could do that, right? Maybe not on the rendering technology right now; maybe that level of realism isn’t quite real time. But it’s within reach. You can get there from here. SHEP: Yeah, we could. Right now, even. It all comes down to – the system we’ve built can render at that high level. Photorealistic humans isn’t there, but something like a very high-end character rendered in real time, absolutely. You break that uncanniness because it’s not a human. Once it’s a human, that stuff gets hard. But yeah, that’s spot on. Gollum we could bring to life. Instagram Live is kind of complicated because you have to do it from a phone, but you could bring it alive on Twitch. You bring it alive on anything from a computer that can do live. We could have a very high-end character engaging and talking to you. Maybe giving his backstory or going deeper into the lore of Lord of the Rings, in the Gollum example. Going deeper into that lore and almost giving you his personal experience. That’s definitely possible with this technology. ROB: That’s fascinating. I do want to see it, but I also want to pull forward to where you’re thinking some of this stuff goes in terms of the Web3 technology. I think some of it was alluded to during the session yesterday, this idea of even potentially establishing a DAO, these digital autonomous organizations, around a character or even parts of the universe governance to make decisions. How wide of decisions do you think you’ll let people make for these characters and this universe? SHEP: That’s a really interesting question. We think about this a lot, because there’s been nothing out there long enough to really see what the right answer is. The way we’re thinking about it is at Offbeat, we’re the creative lead. We went down the rabbit hole of like “What if we gave full control to the community out the gate?”, but there’s a lot of examples where that hasn’t necessarily been the best thing for the long term of the IP. Lots of times the community will do what’s coolest or funniest or whatever it is right now, today, and then they might saturate the brand or make the wrong decision for the brand in the long term. So, the way we view it is we have a really, really creative team, and we can come up with concepts before we completely flesh them out and build them out. Then we can include the audience on helping us make decisions. This is where it starts. We want the audience to make sure that they’re included in all the decisions we’re making about the universe we’re building. They’ll have to own an NFT for the community to actually have that governance and help us make those decisions. But in the future, it could move to be full DAO-driven, where maybe we have a creative council at the top of the DAO that almost has a final say-so, but everyone on that council is voted for by the DAO and then they’re making all the decisions, where maybe 51% can vote and say “Okay, great, this is Zero’s new background. This is the content we’re producing this month. This is the next character we’re launching. This is what they look like.” Right now, it’s going to be very – what’s that “Bandersnatch” off of Netflix? It was like “choose your own adventure.” ROB: Yeah, that was a Black Mirror offshoot. SHEP: Yeah. I don’t like referring to us as Black Mirror, now that I think about it. [laughs] But it is very “choose your own adventure” right now. They’re part of the adventure we’re building. But in the future, it might be “build your own adventure from scratch.” Like, “Here, community, what do you want from scratch?” It’s definitely possible. ROB: Right. There’s different variations. There’s an idea where you could have the contract govern what kind of decisions can be made and all sorts of different directions like that. Interestingly, I think there’s a long-term alignment. I guess an absolutist might say, “Give us full control,” but there’s an alignment where, I assume, when you’re thinking about these tokens, they’re going to be re-sellable. You’re going to get a slice of every transaction when it’s resold. So your interest is still to align to an audience that wants to own and increase the value. SHEP: Yeah, spot on. The one thing I’ll say is a lot of people that own these might not be IP experts. I have been chatting with a lot of IP experts that are from the world of Disney, from the world of Marvel, from the world of Star Wars, that helped build these brands and manage this decade-long or multi-decade-long IP and how they think about expanding and monetizing it. They’re worried about some of these brands. I own a Mutant Ape from the Bored Ape Yacht Club, which is a big NFT community. We were talking about that because every single person that owns a Mutant or a Bored Ape owns the full IP rights to do whatever they want with it. So now there are so many companies and so many individuals creating content with that IP. It’s just going to be really interesting over the next seven years. Does that saturate it? Does it keep that pristine, exclusive feel if everyone’s creating content around it with totally different narratives that have nothing to do with each other? Or does it just become almost like an avatar? Which is still cool and still valuable, but it might not become an entertainment brand. Pirates of the Caribbean is a great example. It was Disney’s biggest hit for about a decade. Now it’s nothing. They’re not producing anything new. It was their biggest hit and every couple of the years, new Pirates of the Caribbean something, over and over and over and over, and it got saturated really quickly. That’s what we’re really cautious of. As we think about building a lot of these characters with similar style for our universe, we want to include the community in it, but if everyone could do exactly what we were doing, then it would be everywhere and it might be too saturated and people would find it less cool. ROB: Do you see a case to be able to turn an Ape into a model in the Nexus universe? Do you see that possibility of “Verify your NFT, we’ll spin up a model, you dial the knobs on how it moves, how it talks”? SHEP: Probably not for the Nexus universe, but the tech’s there. We might bring a Bored Ape into the Nexus universe that’s interacting, but I don’t think it’ll be just for anyone to join us. We’re looking at building out our own avatars for the Nexus universe that have our own aesthetic. So not only do you own an NFT that helps give you governance, but then also you’re following these characters like Zero, and you’re engaging with these characters, and now we’re saying, “Hey, here’s an avatar that has similar aesthetics that you can own and control.” We could include them in our overarching lore, or in their day-to-day, they could use this as their own avatar, their own V-tuber. They could join in a Zoom call and instead of being themselves, they’re their avatar. That’s what we’re looking at. ROB: Very interesting. Definitely plenty to watch in this area. Shep, when people want to keep an eye on what you all are doing, obviously they could follow thousands of Instagram accounts, but where should they go for the center of gravity – for Offbeat, maybe for Virtual Humans? Where are the coordinates? SHEP: I’ll say three areas. And like you said, it seems to change, but add myself on LinkedIn, Shep Ogden. I post a lot about what we’re doing on LinkedIn. Or Offbeat’s LinkedIn is another good source that really talks about it. VirtualHumans.org is not necessarily always about us; it’s actually usually not about us, but it’s about the industry as a whole. So, people really curious about the industry should be on the news later, they should be following the website. Third, if you’re really curious about how we’re bringing Zero to life, @ZeroFromNexus on Twitter is definitely the place to be.  ROB: Fantastic and fascinating. Thank you for narrating us through the intersection of the future, but grounded in stuff that’s valuable right now. I think that’s a really fascinating place to live in this Web3 world where some stuff feels kind of out there, and you’re bringing it to reality and making a real business of it. Congratulations on everything. We’ll keep an eye on it. SHEP: Thanks so much, Rob. ROB: Enjoy. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

4/7/22 • 35:30

Minal Bopaiah, Founder and Principal Consultant, Brevity & Wit (Silver Spring, MD) Minal Bopaiah is Founder and Principal Consultant at Brevity & Wit, a strategy and design firm dedicated to “designing a more equitable world.” The original focus of Minal’s agency was on graphic design. Today, the agency provides full-scale, full-service, human-centered graphic design; strategic marketing and communications; and the application of behavioral change science and organizational development to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion. Typical clients are mid-size companies of 200 to 3,000 employees, but Brevity & Wit has also engaged with public media work, non-profits, and tech and government agencies. At South by Southwest 2022, Minal presented “All About Equity: Future-Proof Your Organization” with the intention of moving people to ask for observable behaviors that support diversity, equity, and inclusion (which Minal refers to as “DEI work”). Accessibility is another issue, addressed as needed. Minal is the author of Equity: How to Design Organizations Where Everyone Thrives, which, as of the date of this publication, has excellent reviews and 100% FIVE STAR RATINGS on Amazon. In this interview, Minal explores equity issues. She says, “Time is our most finite resource. We all only get 24 hours in a day, 168 in a week.” The system is designed for people who “don’t have any caretaking responsibilities.” Most women have about 20 hours of unpaid labor at home,” and a “culture of overwork” is the reason women are less frequently in leadership positions.  When Minal recruits consultants, she strives to disrupt this system by making it “possible for them to earn what they need to live in 20 billable hours a week.” Instead of paying 30% of billable hours to consultants, the agency pays from 60% to 80%. Minal says, “The margins are small,” but, “the point of Brevity & Wit is to get money in the pockets of people of color and people from marginalized identity.” She believes this model is more trust-based, transparent, and partnership-focused than the traditional employment model, where employers “own” employees. Transforming organizations starts with a “power analysis” and an assessment of leadership engagement. Understanding how organizations work, how power works in organizations, and organizational life cycles is critical to restructuring workplaces to be more inclusive and equitable.  Minal is available on her agency’s website at brevityandwit.com and as Minal Bopaiah on internet platforms. Her book, Equity: How to Design Organizations Where Everyone Thrives can be found in major bookstores, at theequitybook.com, and on Amazon.  Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am live at South by Southwest 2022 – yes, conferences are a thing again – and I am joined today by Minal Bopaiah, Founder and Principal Consultant at Brevity & Wit based in Silver Spring, Maryland. Welcome to the podcast, Minal. MINAL: Thank you, Rob. Thank you for having me. ROB: It’s a pleasure to meet you here. We are live in the middle of the Four Seasons in Austin, so we have a lively crowd around us. But that kind of adds to the festivity; we can prove we’re actually somewhere in person. Minal, you are here speaking this week, which is extra exciting, but why don’t you start off and give us the picture of Brevity & Wit? What is the organization, what is your calling card?  MINAL: Sure, I’d be happy to. Brevity & Wit is a strategy and design firm dedicated to designing a more equitable world. We do that through a number of services, from full-scale, full-service graphic design to strategic marketing and communications to organization design. That’s the more intensive DEI work – DEI meaning diversity, equity, and inclusion. We also add accessibility at points. We have a really unique approach that combines human-centered design, behavior change science, and organizational development. So really understanding how organizations work, how power works in organizations, the life cycle of an organization, and then working to make sure that we can transform those organizations into more equitable and inclusive workplaces. ROB: If there’s a typical client, is there a typical size, scale, industry? Who knocks on your door? MINAL: Right now our typical client is medium-sized companies, so about 200 to maybe 3,000 employees. We do a lot of work in public media, but we also work with nonprofits. We’ve worked with tech agencies. We’re starting to work with some government agencies. It can really vary in terms of the industry. ROB: Some of the organizations this size are going to be growing, but a lot of them seem like they might be a little bit more mature and established, at which point, if there’s work to do, there’s probably a lot of work to do. And whereas they might have come to you at one point just to say “Help us with this messaging we’re trying to get out in a certain area,” when you really get to organizational design, you’re saying “How do you be the message you’re trying to put out there and not just buy it sometimes?” What does that look like when you’re coming into an established organization? MINAL: The first thing if we’re really talking about organization design is being able to identify power, like do a power analysis. What we find is in organizations you really have to start with leadership. If leadership is not engaged and fully bought in, it doesn’t work. What often happens – in the post-George Floyd world, a lot of people started doing all-staff trainings. Those are usually counterproductive because it’s very easy for staff to get on board with the principles of DEI, but leadership needs a hot minute. They’re like, “Wait a minute, if this is how we’re supposed to be, how do we do accountability? How do we do performance management? You’re saying that everything I’ve been taught is not right; how do I unlearn that and learn new behaviors?” So, they need a minute to catch up. If you don’t do that, what happens is staff is fully on board with an all-staff, and then you find out that they feel that the leadership is not living up to their end, and they think it’s a bait and switch. So, we want to really start with leadership, especially when we’re working with seasoned organizations that have an established culture. ROB: Sure. Especially because even if someone’s onboard, when you talk about accountability, when you talk about performance management, your low and middle managers are taking their cues from the organization as a whole anyhow. If they need to do something different, they don’t have the tools to do it. What needs to change? What are people not aware of when it comes to those topics – accountability, performance management, and so on? MINAL: There’s a whole thing. There’s everything from how to run an inclusive meeting – which is not that hard; it just means you need to spend 10 minutes prepping, understand what the purpose of the meeting is, make room for everybody to look at the agenda, make room for everybody to talk and reflect and contribute, and then be clear about action items. ROB: That just sounds like a good meeting. MINAL: Yeah, right? If everybody just did that, workplaces would improve. So, it can be something as basic as that to understanding how we embed this in performance management and tie salary and bonuses to it. And it depends where we’re working. Really, the first part is to understand the problem we’re solving for. There are a lot of initials in DEI. Diversity, equity, and inclusion. Do you have a diversity problem where you need to recruit more diverse talent? Do you have an inclusion problem where you’re able to get people with different backgrounds through the door, but they don’t stick because they don’t feel included or feel they don’t belong? Or do you have an equity problem where maybe you’re able to get a lot of diverse talent and they stick, but you look at your proper management and it all looks the same? So, there’s no real pathway for promotion for people who have different strengths. ROB: Right. Even to break that down, I feel like we might need to start every conversation there because people don’t know the problem they’re trying to solve, and they think they’re trying to solve a problem that starts with appointing a person to watch over it. And maybe it’s good to have someone who thinks more deeply about it. I guess that’s an interesting question. Are organizations better served having an officer who is looking at DEI, or is that a copout sometimes? MINAL: It depends how you’re doing it. One, it’s always great to have somebody held accountable for a business function. But if you don’t give that person a budget or the power to do what they need to do, then it’s – sorry, I’m not supposed to curse. I’m going to stop. This is hard for a New Yorker like me to not swear. [laughs] But it’s not a real job, then, right? If you don’t have any resources behind it. It’s fine if you want to have somebody who is manning the shop, so to speak, but you really want some heft behind it, and that heft is going to come from the CEO. ROB: Absolutely. This kind of thing has to start there. I had a little debate – we had a little book club and we were reading this book about engineering leadership. Someone made the assumption that the author was a guy, and it was not. I joked with our COO – I’m kind of telling on my team, and I probably shouldn’t do that on a podcast. MINAL: No. [laughs] ROB: But these folks mean well; we didn’t bash anybody over the head about it, but I kind of riffed with her. I joked and I said, “Camille? Is that a guy?” [laughs] We kind of laughed about it, and I think the point was made. I asked our COO, “Would you rather I said it or you said it?” She’s like, “I saw your eyes light up, so I knew you were going to talk about.” I just felt like it helps to come from the top, and maybe even to not put – I mean, anybody can say it, but to not put her in the position of having to be the one that said it felt helpful, is all I can say. MINAL: Yeah. Really, when we say it needs to start with the top, what we mean is that the CEO or the head of the company has to be fully bought-in. But the skills to do the work should be distributed across the company. Because we’re on a podcast, just looking at you, when a white guy says something like that, the messenger matters in these messages. It means a lot. That’s like an act of true allyship, when somebody who doesn’t have any skin in the game is willing to say, “No, I’m going to put some skin in the game for this because it matters.” As opposed to if I were to say that, it might look like I’m taking it personally. ROB: Right. MINAL: Which doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t be able to, but… ROB: Yeah, the inference from that is a topic all unto itself, but you have to deal with that any time you’re making a comment, so it’s a big deal. MINAL: That’s sort of the politics of work, right? The messenger matters. And this is why we say that talking about identity matters, because if I’m in a leadership position, how people perceive me affects how I lead. So, if I’m not aware of my identity and not aware of the unconscious biases people might have based on my identity, I won’t be able to subvert those unconscious biases. I don’t talk about it because I think we should reinforce biases; I talk about it because the more you’re aware of how people may be perceiving you, the more power you have and the more choice you have in how to play that situation to be effective. ROB: That makes sense. Let’s look back at Brevity & Wit. Where did this firm come from? What made you decide that this needed to exist, that you were going to start it? How did it come to pass? MINAL: I had the name for many, many years, and I think I always wanted to start it. I think I’m naturally – my father really encouraged me to have an original mind. That makes me a bad employee, I think, in a lot of ways. [laughs] It’s good to be a founder if you have an original mind, and you are a bad entry-level employee if you have an original mind. ROB: The unemployable factor, yes. MINAL: Yeah. So, I think that was part of it. But honestly, I couldn’t start it for a number of years because I was single. I was living in New York and then Boston and D.C., because if you’re single, first of all, living in a city helps. Secondly, if you’re a person of color, being able to get access to the sort of foods or culture that I would feel are home for me only happens in cities. Being single in those environments, the cost of living really impeded my ability to start it. We don’t have any VC funding. It was totally scrappy and just me starting it. But what changed is that I got married, and when I got married, I was able to get on my husband’s health insurance, and there was a second income. It wasn’t much – my husband’s a firefighter and paramedic; he’s never made that much money. He’s not independently wealthy or anything. But it was the three-month buffer I needed to go from zero to being in the black and being able to support myself. That was impossible when I was single. ROB: Wow. So that became that moment. Was the focus always in this direction from the start? What was the founding thesis of the firm, and what were some evolution steps along the way? MINAL: The focus originally was on graphic design and communications, but then my last job before I started it was doing marketing for a DEI firm called Cook Ross, which is a pretty big firm. That’s where I met my mentor, Johnnetta Cole, who wrote the foreword for my book. Dr. Cole is just a luminary in the DEI space. She and I have been working on a book. Basically, I just sat at her feet for like a year and a half and wrote everything she told me to write and asked every question I had and learned everything I could about DEI. She was really eager for me to move into the field more intentionally and more directly. I was already sort of doing it in the design and marketing and comms arena, like how you do those jobs with a DEI lens, but through that apprenticeship underneath her, I was able to move into this more directly. ROB: That’s excellent. You’ve been able to grow it, build it. Have you found it natural to recruit additional people into the firm? The right people know your focus when you meet them? Is it pretty natural?  MINAL: Yes and no. It’s really interesting because what I think I’m good at is I can spot talent. But we are very scrappy. We have a very interesting structure. Everybody’s a 1099 right now because I didn’t know how to make it work. But the point of Brevity & Wit is to get money in the pockets of people of color and people from marginalized identity. While most firms might give 30% of the billable rate to the consultant, we give anywhere from 60% to 80%, so our margins are small. Our ability to salary is poor. But what that means is that people who might already be seasoned and be able to consult will get a lot more, and I’m handling marketing and business development. But what that also means is that I have a high tolerance for risk in entrepreneurship; a lot of other people who I think are exceptional talent do not. The diversity angle for me is having those conversations to help them understand a different model, understanding they’ll never be as comfortable as I am in terms of risk, but I can get them to a point that there’s so much trust that they can enter into this. But it has been sometimes a long courtship to get people to join us who I know would be good, and I know they would love it, if they could just allow themselves to imagine a world where they’re not relying on a salary and then getting squeezed out in terms of productivity. One of the problems right now in our world is that – I’m going to say something heavy. Just stick with me. ROB: I’m here. MINAL: The legacy of slavery in our workplaces is this idea that companies think that if they pay somebody a salary, they own them. ROB: Right. MINAL: A more integrity-filled way of looking at it would be to say if you pay somebody a salary, you are renting their time and talent for 40 hours a week, no more, no less. I don’t care what level they are, whether they’re exempt or non-exempt. The reason I say that is because time is our most finite resource. We all only get 24 hours in a day, 168 in a week. Most women have about 20 hours of unpaid labor at home that they don’t get paid for. There’s a Harvard Business Review study of why women aren’t in leadership, and the reason is the culture of overwork. Because only men who either don’t have any caretaking responsibilities or have wives who take care of that – or if they’re gay and they have a partner that takes care of it – can overwork. The whole system is designed for them. So. when I’m recruiting people, I’m trying to say, “Listen, that’s the system we’re trying to disrupt.” So not only do we give our people 60% to 80%, we also try to make it possible for them to earn what they need to live in 20 billable hours a week. ROB: Wow. Do some people just choose 20 with you? MINAL: Yeah. ROB: Does anybody choose more than 40? Is that something somebody can choose with you? MINAL: They could. They might be working with other agencies as well, so they might be doing that. I don’t encourage that, and that’s also why we pay a higher rate. I was like, if we’re going to cap this at 20, then you need to make 60% to 80% in order to make what you live. Then the assumption is that there’s maybe 5 to 10 hours a week of stuff you can’t charge clients for, and then if you decide to be a community member, you’re also going to give back to the Brevity & Wit community a ratio of like 1:5. So for every 5 billable hours, you would give an hour back to the community or something like that. That’s like a 35-hour week right there. There’s a substantial amount of work, but that was the equation that needed to shift in my head if we really wanted to run an equitable startup. ROB: Right. In that case, there’s no ownership vibe when everybody’s on that – it’s freely engaged on both sides. MINAL: Yeah, it’s a partnership model. It’s very transparent, it’s very trust-based. It is very much like “You win when I win, I win when you win.” ROB: You mentioned the book; I do want to go there. A book is a labor and a labor of love, and your book is Equity: How to Design Organizations Where Everyone Thrives. I’m sure the book is aligned to who you are and what we’re talking about in a large way, but tell us about the book and the path of that story. MINAL: The book started actually because of my husband. This guy that I married to start my business is a firefighter and paramedic, which we joke is the opposite of what I do. If you could imagine the opposite. [laughs] ROB: You’re both helping people. Just the skillset is very different. MINAL: Yeah. I come home with my ideas for DEI and he’s like, “That won’t work with my people.” He told me this story once of a conference where these three firefighter captains went to a diversity conference out of state, and the facilitator used the word “LGBTQ.” One of the captains was like, “What does ‘Q’ stand for?” The facilitator said, “Queer.” The captain was like, “Are you kidding me? I literally got called onto the carpet at the firehouse for using that word with somebody.” I’m sure the facilitator explained how queer had been reclaimed by the LGBTQ community. Fell on deaf ears. This captain returned from a three-day conference on diversity and inclusion and his takeaway to the firehouse was “Guys, we can say ‘queer’ again.” [laughs] ROB: Oh no. [laughs] MINAL: Like, no! I always laugh at that story because, one, I can empathize with the firefighter captain because the world is shifting goalposts while he’s literally putting out fires. [laughs] He’s like, “What are you talking about?” And then I also laugh because I fear for DEI professionals like myself because I’m like, is this what people are taking away from our three-hour workshops? That’s their takeaway? So, I was like, how do we make this more pragmatic and practical? The book was really born of that. How do we take this out of academic jargon? How do we take this out of theory and operationalize it and make it as pragmatic and practical as possible? ROB: I would imagine, then, there’s layers to it. You could probably iterate through this topic five different times with an organization and get a little bit better each time. MINAL: Yeah. ROB: And then you’re here; you’re speaking at South by Southwest. You’ve spoken today. You’re on a panel discussion, is that right? MINAL: No, it was just me. Solo. ROB: You mentioned a panel earlier, so I thought that was the deal. All you. So, the session: “All About Equity: Future-Proof Your Organization.” What do you hope people took away from that other than words they can use in their workplace or not? MINAL: I hope that people took away that we really need to move to asking for observable behaviors. This cannot stay in the realm of theory and trying to motivate people to just do better. We need to get clear about what our asks are in companies, and in doing that we create a new culture. We’ve got to be willing to question everything we’ve been taught and then be like, how would we do this in a way that actually is fair to everyone? ROB: What does that look like in practice? Is this going to a KPI process? Are we measuring these things? What does it look like? MINAL: I have a consultant who loves KPIs. You would love her. She loves KPIs. I think eventually it becomes measurable, but I think it’s very, very concrete. If we were to go back to that firefighter example, the ask is not “Let’s sit and have a one-hour conversation about gender fluidity.” I mean, I’m down for that. I’ll do that right now over wine. My husband will not, even though he did all the housework and ran all the errands while I wrote the book. So, what am I arguing with him, right? But if you say to a bunch of firefighters, “Listen, the standard of professionalism is that when you’re out treating a patient, you need to ask what their pronouns are and you need to use whatever they say” – that’s an inarguable, observable behavior that you can see and track, and because you’ve made it departmental policy, you get social reinforcement. That’s what I’m saying. It’s got to move away from “Do you understand all these terms?” to “What is it you want me to do?” The reason I say that is because right now, DEI is a little bit, in my opinion, of implying that you almost have to be a medical doctor in order to be a healthy individual. The level of knowledge that’s needed is at an academic level that doesn’t include everybody. So how do we make this a healthy behavior that people can engage in, even if they haven’t gone to graduate school? ROB: Right, and you’re equipping people with clarity of expectation. People need that in a job anyhow. You can’t say “Do better,” but you can coach, counsel, and hold accountable on “Did you or did you not do this?” There’s eventual conversations. You can get the conversations around organizational fit around those expectations, and that rolls right back into what we were talking about with the meeting structure. It’s setting a standard, holding it. That is effective management, and the organization chooses what those behaviors are. You’re giving people some ideas of what those can actually be that are the next step. MINAL: Exactly. See, you get it. ROB: I get it. I need to get more. This is, of course, the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. A lot of our listeners, a lot of our guests are people who run creative organizations. Something I would observe from where I sit is that there are let’s say stereotypes within different roles. An organization might achieve some overall appearance of diversity while each department – let’s say the account team, a bunch of guys are developers, a bunch of account people are women, a lot of the people who actually handle doing what they say they’re going to do can be women. How should an organization think about not just being inclusive as a whole and equitable and diverse as a whole, but within those little sub-areas where it’s easy to be very homogeneous, how do people think about behaviors and actions they could do in those areas to get to a better place? MINAL: One, it’s important to be mindful of your size. The very big organizations – DEI started in the Fortune 500s. When you have 50,000 employees, you can make the case that every department should be diverse amongst all of these lines because they’re big enough departments. If you’re a company of 200 and you have a team of five developers, this becomes a more difficult equation. Then it may not be about getting the exact percentages right, but it is looking at the process to get in the door, first of all. Is that even equitable? There’s lots of research that shows that having an ethnic-sounding name like mine doesn’t lead to a callback. But if I were to change my name and have exactly the same résumé, I would get more callbacks. There’s those things. Then it’s also looking at the culture and training the team in terms of “Do you know how to be inclusive of people who are different? Do you know what that means? It might take more time to build trust, and you might have to do it more intentionally.” And then it’s also looking at doing very targeted recruitment, because often in a lot of these fields that you mention, like web development, accounting, so on and so forth, there are groups that are trying to get people who have historically been left out of these professions in the door. If a company forms partnerships with those groups, then when they have a job posting, they can reach out with those groups. But it needs to be not just transactional, where you’re trying to get something; you’ve got to give, too. ROB: It sounds like the organizations that are the best at that are also going to be holding a high trust with who they’re presenting as a candidate. Not just can they be recruited – can they be retained, can they grow in their role and within the organization? They’re going to want to know the receipts on that, not just “Will you hire this person because you need somebody right now?” MINAL: The thing that people from marginalized identities hate being is a token, or your PR cover. And don’t think we can’t sniff that out within five seconds. It amazes me how much people try. I was like, we have this figured out. [laughs]  ROB: “This is awkward. I’ll tell you what I see here.” MINAL: Yeah. ROB: Makes sense. [laughs] Well, what’s coming up? You mentioned another book. MINAL: Yes, I’m working on a book with my mentor, Johnnetta Cole, that is still in development. And then Brevity & Wit is doing some amazing, amazing things. We are working with public media. We’re going to be at the Public Media Marketing and Development Conference in Chicago in July. And our team – we have such phenomenal people. We are doing an online workshop on April 14th, and you can go to bitly.com/brevityandwit if you want to sign up. It is on digital blackface and racism in emojis. ROB: Okay. MINAL: So, if you’re a marketer and you’re using emojis or you’re a social media marketer and you’re responding with – is it “JIFs” or “GIFs”? I never know. ROB: Depends on who you ask. MINAL: If you’re using that stuff, there is a digital blackface that is emerging in our culture that people need to be made aware of and be able to observe and be able to make different choices. Our creative director is leading a workshop on that. ROB: You’re going to help people read the room on their emojis. There’s probably 10 different ways to do that wrong. I’m glad we don’t do this, because thinking about how to do that right is kind of terrifying to me. Whether you’re using the Simpsons yellow emoji or whether you’re very pale or very not pale. MINAL: That is one of the slides, the Simpson yellow. [laughs] ROB: It’s funny we started there; it’s funny that it’s still there. MINAL: Yeah, because everybody’s like, “Oh, it’s neutral.” I was like, then why is a poo brown? It’s not neutral. It’s code for white. ROB: I think about it even when I’m choosing my Slack emoji and my default skin tone. I’m like, am I choosing the right one? Can I just get a camera to color match me so I can not . . . MINAL: And Acacia is going to lead people through that, like how do you become more observant of that? And we’re not saying you can’t use something like an emoji that’s a different color, or more accurately a JIF/GIF or whatever we call it. But it’s being more mindful of “What is the context in which I’m using this?” Is it in any way mimicking the blackface minstrelsy that we used to see? ROB: If it’s here to entertain us, it’s not respectful.  MINAL: Yeah, if it’s dehumanizing in any way. ROB: Absolutely. Wow. Minal, it’s a lot of think about. Is there anything you wish I would’ve asked you that I didn’t get to in this conversation? MINAL: Oh wow. I could talk about this stuff all day. I can’t think of anything off the top of my head. It’s a pleasure to talk to somebody who has such a genuine and authentic interest in this work. ROB: Yeah. Hopefully someone can ask some more questions from this. In the show notes, we’ll get that bitly link to what you’ve got coming up. I think we can get that out in time. That’ll be an exciting next step for people. I would encourage folks to check out the book and check out Brevity & Wit. Where should people find you when they want to connect with you? MINAL: Brevity & Wit is brevityandwit.com. The book is available in all major bookstores. You can also go to theequitybook.com. And I am the only Minal Bopaiah on the internet. [laughs] ROB: That’s wonderful. MINAL: Take a gander at spelling my name and you’ll probably land up on me. [laughs] ROB: That’s good. I can’t even claim to be the only Rob Kischuk on the internet. You’ve got the Google result of one? MINAL: Yeah. ROB: That is excellent. Grateful you could join us. Minal Bopaiah, Brevity & Wit, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I hope people continue to check you out and learn and engage and get better, but in measurable and specific and direct ways, and not this idealism. It’s both. MINAL: Practical idealism. ROB: Appreciate it. Thank you so much. MINAL: Thank you, Rob. Thank you so much. ROB: Be well. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

3/31/22 • 31:43