M&A Talk: #1 Podcast on Selling a Business

In this episode, Heather Endresen, founder of Viso Business Capital, joins Jacob Orosz to break down what it takes to secure the best possible SBA financing when acquiring a business. You'll learn how to evaluate lenders, avoid common pitfalls in the SBA loan process, and structure a deal that keeps execution risk low and your odds of closing high. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  SBA Financing When Buying or Selling a Business Small Business Acquisition Financing M&A Seller Financing: A Complete Guide Additional Resources Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.  

8/7/26 • 80:20

In this episode, you'll learn the difference between selling your business to a holding company versus an operating company. You will discover how your choice of buyer impacts your role after the sale, your team's future, and your second payout. Understanding these buyer styles will help you avoid lowball purchase offers and boost the value of your future sales and bonus payouts. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Selling to a PE Firm as Part of a Roll-up Earnouts When Selling or Buying a Business | Complete Guide M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses Additional Resources Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.  

7/29/26 • 31:01

Learn how outside growth funding can help you expand your operations rapidly and achieve the highest possible price when you sell your company. This episode breaks down practical strategies for using growth capital to scale without giving up total control or straining your cash flow with heavy debt payments. You'll discover how to prepare your financials for strategic investors and avoid misallocating funds before an exit. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Accelerate Your Company's Growth Seller's Discretionary Earnings (SDE) | Definition & Examples EBITDA | Definition, Formula & Example – A Complete Guide M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses Additional Resources Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

7/22/26 • 30:44

If you have any topic or guest suggestions for M&A Talk, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com. How can you get on the path to entrepreneurship by acquiring an established business rather than building a start-up? Harvard Business School professors Royce Yudkoff and Rick Ruback share their insights into the nuances of search fund investing, including the challenges of finding high-quality, enduringly profitable businesses. They focus on the appeal of the lower-middle market, the advantages of finding a founder nearing retirement, and the appeal of the search fund approach toward entrepreneurship. View the complete show notes for this episode. Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue  

7/19/26 • 51:04

Managing expectations and understanding what potential buyers look for is critical to selling a business successfully. Jason Hullender offers tips on how to get the sale of your business across the fifty-yard line and into the end zone. He discusses the top areas where buyers and sellers have unrealistic expectations, the importance of a company's valuation, understanding EBITDA, how customer concentration and competitive advantages fit into the mix, and why you should be prepared for the due diligence process.  Learn More:  Quality of Earnings in M&A – The Ultimate Guide Business Valuation Guide: Do I need a Valuation? M&A Due Diligence | Checklist & Overview How Long Does it Take to Sell a Business? Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.  

7/8/26 • 45:14

Industry roll-ups: What are they? How do they work? What's in it for the business owner? Brandon Blewett, Head of M&A at Pave America, discusses what you can expect when selling your business to a PE firm as part of a roll-up. View the complete show notes for this episode.   Want To Learn More?  Why Do Companies Acquire Other Businesses? Earnouts When Selling or Buying a Business | Complete Guide Net Working Capital (NWC) for M&A – A Complete Guide   Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue   If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

7/3/26 • 43:44

When you sell your business, co-owner friction can destroy your hard-earned equity. This episode breaks down how internal disagreements affect your exit and why transparent communication with buyers preserves your leverage. You will discover how to resolve deep-seated stalemates through professional mediation, restructure uneven family roles, and implement robust buy-sell agreements. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Navigating Partnership Disputes: Lessons from a Valuation Expert How to Sell Your Family Business Why Do Some Businesses Not Sell? Additional Resources Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

6/25/26 • 31:56

In this episode, we discuss how financial due diligence is different from your regular compliance bookkeeping and how to clean up your books to secure the highest possible purchase price. You'll discover how simple accounting mistakes can destroy trust with buyers, lead to sudden price reductions, and even kill a deal. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  The Role of Accountants When Selling Your Business M&A Due Diligence Preparation Quality of Earnings in M&A – The Ultimate Guide Additional Resources Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

6/17/26 • 40:29

If your business has multiple divisions or product lines, selling a piece of it — without selling everything — could unlock serious value. This episode breaks down exactly how carve-out transactions work, what makes them complex, and how to prepare before a buyer ever shows up. Walk away knowing what separates a smooth deal from an expensive mess. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  M&A Reps & Warranties | A Complete Guide M&A Due Diligence Preparation Adjusting Financial Statements: A Complete Guide Additional Resources Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

6/9/26 • 38:51

Discover why managing human dynamics and transaction timelines is just as critical as the legal paperwork when you sell your company. Learn how an experienced lead advisor protects your purchase price from collapsing when technical gridlocks, net working capital adjustments, or due diligence delays threaten your exit. This episode delivers the actionable strategies you need to keep your advisory team aligned and secure the maximum value for your business. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Net Working Capital (NWC) for M&A – A Complete Guide M&A Due Diligence Preparation The Role of M&A Lawyers When Selling Your Business Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.  

5/29/26 • 36:15

Discover how the massive influx of retiring owners is shifting the market and why a new wave of highly sophisticated, funded buyers wants to acquire your business. Learn how to spot the perfect buyer who will preserve your legacy, protect your team, and pay top dollar for your company. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Entrepreneurship Through Acquisition: Insights from Harvard Business School Experts M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses Should I Use SDE or EBITDA to Value My Business for Sale? Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

5/22/26 • 36:18

Unprepared business owners leave millions on the table or watch their deals collapse at the finish line during buyer due diligence. Discover how a proactive financial review shields your profits, forces buyers to take your asking price seriously, and protects your hard-earned wealth post-closing. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Quality of Earnings in M&A – The Ultimate Guide M&A Due Diligence Preparation Preparing Financial Statements When Selling a Business Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

5/14/26 • 31:43

Learn how to keep more of your hard-earned money by outperforming traditional private equity timelines. This episode reveals how to compress your exit strategy from years into months while maximizing your final payout. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Selling a Business: A High-Level Overview  How Long Does it Take to Sell a Business? EBITDA | Definition, Formula & Example – A Complete Guide Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

5/8/26 • 10:50

Selling your business today requires more than just good financial statements; you need to understand the macro forces that shift buyer behavior. Learn how to navigate shifting interest rates, the AI revolution, and political uncertainty to ensure you exit at the highest possible value. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Business Exit Plan & Strategy Checklist | A Complete Guide The Role of Family Offices in M&A M&A Basics: Building a Sellable Business Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

4/24/26 • 48:27

In this episode, we explore the rapidly growing world of search funds and why these hungry entrepreneurs might be the perfect buyers for your business. Discover how selling to a searcher allows you to protect your legacy, cash out on your terms, and ensure your company thrives under fresh, dedicated leadership. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses What To Expect When Selling Your Business To A Search Fund EBITDA | Definition, Formula & Example – A Complete Guide Additional Resources Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

4/17/26 • 66:40

Stop guessing what your business is worth and start understanding what dictates your sale price. This episode reveals how private equity firms categorize companies by EBITDA and why the lower middle market is currently the goldmine for savvy sellers. Learn how to position your company as a high-value platform or a strategic add-on to secure the best possible deal. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  What's a 'Main Street' vs. a Middle-Market Company? EBITDA | Definition, Formula & Example – A Complete Guide M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

4/10/26 • 40:56

Sharing the news of a sale is the one topic that keeps business owners up at night more than taxes or price. If you disclose the news too early or without a strategy, you risk destabilizing your team, triggering key departures, and even killing the deal entirely. This episode provides a tactical roadmap for timing your announcement, building trust with your leadership, and ensuring your staff stays motivated to see the transaction through to a successful close. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Informing & Retaining Employees When Selling a Business How To Maintain Confidentiality When Selling Your Business Everything An Entrepreneur Needs to Know About Selling to PE Firm Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

4/2/26 • 50:49

Your business might be a diamond in the rough for the right investor. Learn how private equity firms identify operational gaps and the specific steps you can take to double your value before hitting the market. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  EBITDA | Definition, Formula & Example – A Complete Guide The Role of Family Offices in M&A Negotiating an M&A Purchase Agreement | M&A Tips Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

3/24/26 • 38:54

This episode reveals how professional service firms, from accounting to consulting, can break free from the billable hour trap to command massive exit multiples. Learn the exact blueprint for transitioning your firm to a recurring revenue model that attracts private equity and ensures your business survives and thrives long after you hand over the keys. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Allocation of Purchase Price & Taxes When Selling a Business M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses Reducing Concentrations of Risk Before Selling Your Business Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.  

3/18/26 • 30:48

To net $10 million when you sell, you must grow your company's value to at least $15 million to cover taxes and fees. This episode reveals how to break through the revenue glass ceiling and decentralize your business so it thrives and sells without you. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More? Business Exit Plan & Strategy Checklist | A Complete Guide Reducing Concentrations of Risk Before Selling Your Business M&A Basics: Building a Sellable Business Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.  

3/11/26 • 32:53

Stop being the bottleneck in your own company and start building an asset that high-value buyers actually want to acquire. Learn the "golden rule" of sellability and how to transition from a stressed owner-operator to a successful investor with multiple eight-figure exits. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses Selling a Business: A High-Level Overview  The Fungibility of Businesses as an Investment Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

3/4/26 • 31:29

Don't let your dream exit turn into a corporate nightmare. Learn how to protect your team and your sanity when staying on post-sale. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  After the Sale – Planning a Smooth Integration with the Buyer Negotiating the Letter of Intent The M&A Training & Transition Period Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

2/23/26 • 33:41

Stop worrying that selling your company means handing your loyal staff a pink slip. Learn how growth-minded buyers actually protect your workforce to secure their investment and scale the business. This episode reveals the best time and ways to announce a sale to your employees. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses How To Maintain Confidentiality When Selling Your Business Informing & Retaining Employees When Selling a Business Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

2/19/26 • 32:13

Learn how to bridge the price gap when selling your company without losing control of your future payments. This episode reveals why you should never rely on verbal promises and how to lock in your earnout through ironclad legal protections. Discover the secrets to maintaining your budget and team after the deal closes so you actually get paid every dollar you deserve. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More? Earnouts When Selling or Buying a Business | Complete Guide Negotiating an M&A Purchase Agreement | M&A Tips M&A Reps & Warranties | A Complete Guide Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

2/9/26 • 30:37

Most business owners unknowingly lower their company's value by staying too involved in daily tasks. Learn how to remove yourself and build a self-sustaining asset that attracts premium offers. This episode reveals the systems and leadership structures you need to attract high-value buyers and ensure a smooth transition. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Adjusting Financial Statements: A Complete Guide EBITDA | Definition, Formula & Example – A Complete Guide Negotiating the Letter of Intent Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

2/3/26 • 34:53

Don't let a buyer slash your purchase price during the final days of a deal because you failed to prepare your financials for heavy scrutiny. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More? Quality of Earnings in M&A – The Ultimate Guide Most Common Deal Killers When Selling Your Business M&A Due Diligence | Checklist & Overview Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

1/26/26 • 49:39

Stop running a lifestyle business and start building a high-value asset that investors and acquirers will compete to buy at a premium price. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Should I Use SDE or EBITDA to Value My Business for Sale? Business Valuation Standards of Value & Fair Market Value Increasing the Value of Your Business | The RVD Model Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

1/19/26 • 41:35

When you decide to sell your business, you're entering a high-stakes arena where the person across the table buys companies for a living. To them, you are prey to be out-negotiated; to you, this is the most important financial event of your life. This episode pulls back the curtain on the tactics sophisticated buyers use to lure sellers into lopsided deals, from discouraging the use of advisors to intentionally dragging out due diligence to induce deal fatigue. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  M&A Guide | The 4 Types of Buyers of Businesses Selling a Business | How to Screen Individual Buyers Why Do Buyers Disappear When Selling My Business? Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

1/13/26 • 39:27

Learn the absolute biggest mistakes sellers make, straight from a buyer who has acquired over 20 businesses and sees thousands of deals. Prepare for your business exit by fixing these mistakes now to secure your ideal closing price. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Adjusting Financial Statements: A Complete Guide Business Broker & M&A Advisor Agreements | A Complete Guide The Role of M&A Lawyers When Selling Your Business Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

1/9/26 • 51:22

Stop letting questionable add-backs and messy books cost you hundreds of thousands on your business sale. Learn exactly what bank lenders, especially those focused on SBA 7(a) loans, will and will not accept when calculating your actual Seller's Discretionary Earnings (SDE). Discover the concrete steps you must take now to ensure your financials are clean, verifiable, and support the highest multiple for your exit. View the complete show notes for this episode. Want To Learn More?  Adjusting Financial Statements: A Complete Guide Quality of Earnings in M&A – The Ultimate Guide Preparing Financial Statements When Selling a Business Additional Resources: Selling your business? Schedule a free consultation today. Sign up for an Assessment and Valuation of Your Business. Courses: The Art & Science of Selling a Business Download The Art of The Exit: The Complete Guide to Selling Your Business Download Acquired: The Art of Selling a Business With $10 Million to $100 Million in Revenue If you have any topic or guest suggestions, please email them to podcast@morganandwestfield.com.

12/31/25 • 38:57