Show cover of The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

A Marketing show where we discuss how to market your business with integrity by disrupting the current Marketing Paradigm and bringing the Human(e) Connection back to marketing. We also discuss entrepreneurship, personal & business growth, online selling & making a difference. Read the Humane Business Manifesto at Past guests include Chris Brogan, Mark Schaefer, Dorie Clark, Tara McMullin and many more.


Videos to Stand Out As Authentic Humans & Build Trust with Lou Bortone
Welcome to another episode of the Humane Marketing podcast. In this episode, we delve into the realm of humane video with Lou Bortone, exploring how video content can be a powerful tool for authentic connection and trust-building in today's business world.  Join us as we uncover the core principles of creating videos that resonate on a deeply human level, discover the importance of authenticity in fostering a loyal audience, explore cutting-edge AI tools for video creation, and gain valuable insights into future trends and actionable tips tailored specifically for solopreneurs.  Get ready to be inspired and equipped to use video as a means to stand out authentically and thrive in your business endeavors. In this conversation with Lou, we addressed the following talking points: How Lou got started with video and has seen it evolve into a tool for humane and authentic connection The core principles of creating video content that resonates on a human level How authenticity builds trust and a loyal audience Tools for video creation, including AI Future trends and actionable tips for solopreneurs and much more... --- Transcript 186 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing. Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years. business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends, welcome back to another episode at the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And I'm talking to a long time online friend, Lou Bortone. If you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version [00:03:00] of the seven P's of marketing at humane. marketing. com. One page, the number one and the word page. And also just a reminder for my non native English speakers, humane is with an E at the end. So it's not human, it's humane. So humane with an E dot marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. All right, let me tell you a little bit about Lou and from his bio, you will kind of immediately kind of grasp his sense of humor. If Don Vito Corleone, Marty Scorsese and Jerry Seinfeld got together to make an AI baby, you might end up with Lou Bortone. Lu is known as the Video Godfather and is conciliare to some of the brightest names in digital marketing. [00:04:00] He's a video marketing expert, an author, speaker, and host of the Godfather podcast. Prior to becoming a video printer, Lu spent more than 20 years in the television business before being run out of. Hollywood. Lou is also a father to twins, a rescuer of pugs, and an expert at Italian curses. I'll always remember meeting Lou in real life back in, I think it was 2017, when he picked me up in a Red Beetle or something. Like that at this tiny train station in Camucho Cortona and, and that's in Tuscany and then drove us up the hill. And I could tell he had no experience with stick driving to our retreat house for the week. And these in person meetings are really just so special in this online world, aren't they? So that's why I went back to Lou for this episode [00:05:00] around video. So in this conversation with Lou, we addressed the following talking points, how Lou got started with video and has seen it evolve into a tool for humane and authentic connection, the core principles of creating video content that resonates on a human level, how authenticity builds trust. And a loyal audience, tools for video creation, including AI tools, future trends and actionable tips for solopreneurs to get started or to get better with video and so much more. So let's dive into this conversation with Lou Bortone. Hey Lou, so glad to see you again and get a chance to talk shop with you about video. And of course, in the off recording, we talked about Sicily because we have a common love for everything Italy, right? Lou Bortone: Exactly. Yeah. And you're one of the [00:06:00] online folks that I've actually met in real life. So that's right. Sarah: Yeah. Which is always, you know, it's such an exception. And so it's yeah. Something special. I, I was part of your, what do you call it? Mastermind Lou Bortone: or Tuscany and yeah, and we had the few years of the little interruption of the pandemic and all that, but hopefully that's all behind us. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. That was amazing. Loved it. Cool. So I have you today to talk about video and we were just, Discussing, well, maybe we're going to call it video like we're human or YouTube, like we're human or something like that. And then you share it that you just kind of focus a lot on the trust and authenticity. And so we'll definitely get into that. So really looking forward to it. Why don't you start by sharing how you got. Into video how you you know, you're calling yourself the godfather of video, tell Lou Bortone: us Yeah. [00:07:00] The long and circuitous route too. And you know, it's funny 'cause I think people call me that because they know of my love of Italy and Sicily and the Godfather, but all really, because I've been doing it for a really long time. So I was in the television business for many years in Los Angeles and I think it was probably around. 2000 on 1998 that I really got online and started to do things online. And when our twins were born, we decided, well, let's leave, you know, Hollywood and La La Land and go some, go back to family and in Boston. And that's kind of when I started doing the online video stuff which was fun because the way I discovered YouTube is that I was helping some people. Do a sketch comedy show for like a local cable access. And we started to put the videos on YouTube and really get a lot of attention there. We realized, Oh, this, you know, we were kind of onto something. So I was on from a very early, you know, back in 2005 when YouTube started and I've been doing online video ever since. And I love it because [00:08:00] I'm an introvert and I don't have to be in person necessarily with people. And even though I don't love being on camera for me, it's a lot easier than in person networking. And I just love the fact that we can do this and sort of have our own TV station, our own podcast. I mean, 10, 20 years ago, this would have been impossible. So Sarah: yeah, that's how I got here. That's insane. It's like mind blowing that, you know, 2005, that it really seems like ages and ages, but that's Lou Bortone: when it came out. So I guess that's what, 18 years. Oh my gosh. I feel so old. Sarah: It really is a long time ago and of course, you know, it went through phases of ups and downs and, and it seems like right now it really is kind of like coming back and, and I want to know from you, why do you think that it has this comeback now? What, Lou Bortone: what, what? It's interesting. And it's the same with, you know, remember podcasting sort of cooled off [00:09:00] for a while and now it's harder than ever. I think part of it is that You know, when, when I was growing up, when we were growing up, you know, there were just a few TV stations and a few options. And now with YouTube and podcasts and streaming, you know, we've got access to, to the, to basically a worldwide audience every time we turn on our computer or our PC. Put our phone on. So I think that's part of it. It's just the accessibility and also the fact that folks who maybe are a little younger than us grew up with. They never didn't. You know, they always had Internet. They always had you do. They always had streaming and all this kind of stuff. So for them. A screen is a screen is a screen, they don't care if it's TV, they don't care if it's you know, cable, they don't care if it's YouTube, you know, whatever they're watching, they can watch anything, anytime, and that's why, you know, another crazy statistic is that YouTube has more viewers than all the U. S. TV networks, all the cable networks, all the streaming services, so when you think of TV, you don't usually think of YouTube, but [00:10:00] YouTube is TV, and TV is YouTube. Sarah: I mean, if we think of our kids, right, that's, that's all they're watching. They're not watching TV. It's Lou Bortone: definitely the YouTube. Multi screens. You know, they're, they're watching YouTube on a, on a traditional television screen, but they're on Twitter or X at the same time with their friends. And I don't know how they do it. I can barely manage one screen. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. I also feel that. You know, we were also kind of part of the blogging era. And, and so I feel like, you know, Google has changed their algorithm again. And people are like, well, people don't really read blogs anymore. And we can't get any traction with SEO. Now that the market is getting flooded with all the AI content. So maybe it's also, do you think it's also because of that? People are like, well, at least that. That's what it was for me. I'm like, I got to pay attention to Lou Bortone: YouTube. Absolutely. And then the other thing with business owners, I mean, you know, we always read video is the way to [00:11:00] get the most amount of information in the shortest amount of time. So if we're all multitasking, we're all really over scheduled, we're all really busy. Oftentimes it's like, I can't sit down and read a newspaper. But what's that? You know, it's, I have to, you know, go to YouTube and find this quick answer. I have to go to see this thing on Tik TOK or, you know, so it's really just a great way to get access to any information anywhere in the world. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's, it's, I love it, especially when it's timestamped. So it's like, Oh, I don't even have to watch the whole thing. It's just like, yeah, exactly. So, so yeah. Lou Bortone: So I think now the thing is that. The, the consumer, the viewer, it has more control than ever. Cause like I said, when we were at least in the U S when we were growing up, it's like you had three TV networks and, and they controlled everything. They controlled what you saw, what you heard. And now it's kind of like, well, the consumer can go anywhere they want and see anything they want. So they're completely in control now. Sarah: So that kind [00:12:00] of probably if someone has never done any video kind of sounds also intimidating because it's like, wow, like there's this giant audience out there. Okay. You already mentioned as an introvert, sometimes YouTube is actually probably easier than the networking thing, but maybe it also feels like, well. What am I going to share that hasn't already been said out there? Yeah. So what would you say to that Lou Bortone: question? I think, you know, everybody has their unique spin and everybody has their own, you know Perspective. So it's like you have something to offer. A lot of times if I'm working with my clients or students, they feel like, well, you know, like you said, well, you know, what can I say that hasn't already been said? And I tell them, look, you know, you have a message. You have a unique message. You have a unique way of doing things and your Passion to get that message out to the world has to be stronger than your fear of being on camera. Because again, you know, the other thing too is now that we're all able to be on camera, we're not walking the red carpet at the Oscars. We're just putting on a podcast or a YouTube channel [00:13:00] and showing up and trying to be authentic. Sarah: Right. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about this trust building and authenticity, like what are some key points here that maybe a story I can tell is like, I remember when I put up my first video and I just seen them all because I cleaned up my YouTube channel and I'm like, Oh my God, this is terrible. But I remember like really sweating it like, Oh my God, I have to prepare everything. Yeah. So. Like, do we really need to have this perfect video or how much of it can we just wing and really be just human and Lou Bortone: authentic? I think you can wing 80 percent of it, probably. I mean, I often make the distinction between quick videos and keeper videos. It's like, okay, a keeper video, your homepage video on your website, you know, you want to, you don't want to be in your pajamas, probably. If it's an important video that's going to have shelf life, like your homepage [00:14:00] video, or if you're selling, you know, a thousand dollar coaching program, you don't, you know, you want to look professional. So those keeper videos, you probably want to spend more time and effort on, but if it's, you know, quick tips, I mean, oftentimes I just think of something and then just go to YouTube and share it. So quick tips or Facebook lives or any kind of live video, it's really more about, you know, just showing up. And sharing your message and being authentic. And a lot of times people think video is about the technology. And what I try to sort of, you know, reshape that or respin it as, no, it's really about connection and relationships and engagement. It doesn't matter what technology we're using. It just matters that we're connecting and being authentic and sharing ourselves. Hmm. Sarah: I remember we, we did the workshop together or something about video for introverts back in the days. And, and I remember we did kind of have one module on, on on technology. And I'm thinking maybe that actually lost [00:15:00] a bit of importance now that. You know, we're so used to these shorts on YouTube and even famous people just kind of like filming themselves. You think it has changed maybe also over time? Yeah. And Lou Bortone: I think that the pandemics accelerated it really quickly because, you know, and basically in, you know, a day we all had to move to zoom and we had to move our events to zoom and we had to move everything online. So I think that just accelerated it. And, you know, it was almost like. You know, well, I don't have a choice. I have to be on camera because that's the only way I can connect with my audience right now, right? Yeah. And I think the other thing was now people realize, Oh, this is, you know, this isn't that scary. And this isn't that difficult technically. And we always hear about no like and trust. And I think people finally realized like, wow, this is a great way to build no like and trust. Sarah: Yeah, it's so true. I'm always surprised that people are watching whole episodes, you know, that I put [00:16:00] on the podcast as well, but no, people actually watched the YouTube version of it as well. And probably it's because that know, like, and trust, right? Lou Bortone: Yeah, definitely. The connection, the ability to watch it on the go, cause people are watching on their phones. And I did, you know, I've, I've done podcasting. Off and on, but the reason that I finally committed to doing a podcast was I saw a statistic that YouTube was now the number one source for podcasts, more than Apple, more than Google, more than Amazon people are going to YouTube for podcasts and whether that's just. Kind of listening to it when, you know, with a slide on the screen or having an actual interview or seeing the person on screen, either way there, it's become, you know, kind of the go to place to see and hear podcasts. Sarah: Yeah, that's interesting. I did see a difference between just having that slide and the moving, you know, lines which I did before. So I didn't have the video portion of [00:17:00] it. And now with, with the actual faces, like there is more engagement or there is more views because yeah, obviously it's more interesting to, to see two people talking than just a line. Yeah. Lou Bortone: Yeah. And that's the other thing that's been interesting too is now with all the AI stuff. It's like, I think there's going to be not really a backlash with AI, but more of a need for like, okay, I don't want to see a robotic, you know, synthesized video. I mean, yeah, I can create an AI version of myself. It's like, hi, I'm Lou, you know, and recreate my voice, but it's still not you, you know, it's still not the real person. Sarah: Yeah. And, and I really feel like that's why I like the really human and authentic videos the best, where you see some people, you know, they have like this fancy background and their logo is up there and their book is up there. I'm like, I get that from a marketing perspective, but. [00:18:00] It doesn't feel real. It feels like if I would see you on the street, I probably wouldn't recognize you because you're wearing so much makeup and I don't, yeah, I don't really recognize you. So for me, it's really that real humanness that comes across. Yeah, Lou Bortone: and that's why I like, you know, I don't do as much live video as I should, but I kind of call it like, oh, a live video is to come as you are party, you know, just show up and, and, you know, be yourself and don't worry that the dogs are barking in the background because that's the way it works, you know, like it's, there's going to be distractions, there's going to be craziness going on in the background, but that just makes it more real. Sarah: Talking about that. I just watched, remember that BBC interview where the walks in and then the baby rolls in and I just watched that Lou Bortone: again. Sometimes those are viral moments. Like, you know, the wife's son doing, trying to do a professional interview and the guy walks by. [00:19:00] You know, husband walks behind her in his boxer shorts, you know, it's like, we're trying to do video here, people. Sarah: And what, what I didn't remember is that that was in 2017. So way pre COVID. So that's why it was like super shocking. You know, back then we were all still like, Ooh, you know, has to be super professional. So I feel like a lot has changed since the pandemic. Yeah. And again, Lou Bortone: You have to find that balance because like I kid like you don't want to look like a hostage video. I mean, you don't want to have really terrible lighting and yeah, that it may be authentic, but it's still not easy to watch like if the lighting is really bad or if the audio is bad. So you have to find that balance between like, look, I have to, you know, look relatively professional, but I don't have to be so polished that I'm on doing an interview on CNN or something. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah, it's, it's true. It's that balance that you're still human and creating trust. But without looking [00:20:00] like, yeah, you're just going on CNN. So we talked a little bit about AI what I just recently started using is this Tool called Clip, Opus Clip or something. Oh yeah. Yes. Opus Clip. And it lets you create these little shorts from longer videos. Right. And, and I love that because it's repurposing existing content. And so, yeah, do you know any other great AI tools Lou Bortone: that people are using? I did a series on some AI tools and Opus Clip was one of them, which is great because if you're going to create content. You might as well get as much mileage out of it as possible. So if you're doing a podcast and you wanted to do clips from the podcast, or you want to do 60 second segments, Opus clip is great for that. Pictory. ai is really good because you can, you know, make your videos more professional and edit them and add, you know, B roll and background footage. And the one that I use probably every single day is descript. com. And the reason [00:21:00] I like that is because for people who are not You know, video editors, you can edit the text and all those changes are made, you know, you're basically editing a Word document and then the changes transfer the video. So I've been using that for pod, you know, to produce podcasts and really every kind of video because it's, it's really faster and you can look more professional and more quickly. Yeah, Sarah: and I love the fact that you just highlight all the ums and take them Lou Bortone: all out. Yeah, I had no idea how many times I used the words and until I found a descriptor like, oh, I can take out all the filler words with one click. And suddenly I sound smarter than I am. And I don't think that damages any of the authenticity or makes it any less real. It's just that like, oh, this is, it's going to be a little bit easier to look more professional without having to go through all kinds of crazy editing and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, that's true. It doesn't feel like all of a sudden you sound like a robot. You just. I feel like, yeah, you sound [00:22:00] smarter because you're not constantly looking for words or, or, yeah, saying Lou Bortone: them that. And some of it's getting like, it's a little bit weird because there's a feature in Descript where if I'm looking at the screen, it will put your eyes back up to where the camera is. Oh, I haven't Sarah: seen that. Lou Bortone: Ooh, that's kind of, you know, it's kind of interesting. It's a little creepy, but it works pretty well. But again, it's about striking that balance. Like I could do videos where I say, you know, you sort of insert the name, like you do one video, hello. So, you know, it's like, well, obviously that's, you know automated. So you don't want to do so much automation that it's not, you know real anymore. Sarah: Right. Yeah. I guess that's a question that you get often is like, well, where should your eyes be when you're doing either self recorded videos or chats like this one? For example, me right now, I'm looking at the camera. I'm not looking at you, which I always feel like, oh, what a Lou Bortone: shame. You got [00:23:00] to sort of train your eyes. I'm like, Oh, you know, my mom said you have to look people in the eye. Exactly. Great, but the camera, the camera's eye is up here, so I cheat because I have like a little extra monitor up where the camera is, but if I was looking at the screen, it would be, it would feel like I wasn't connecting with you and I wasn't being as authentic because I'm not, you want to try to, the camera is the the other person's eyes. So that's the tricky part. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. What I do is this, because I'm recording on zoom, so I just make the screen of zoom very small and just shove it right under the camera. Lou Bortone: I know. So those kind of tricks of just, you know, try to look at the camera try to have, you know, adequate lighting But again, it's, you know, it doesn't take much. I, I, I like to have a setup where I can just say, okay, my camera is set up, my background's okay, my lights work, and I want to just be able to go. I don't want to have to spend 20 minutes setting up a video every time I do a video. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It becomes kind of like a nuisance if you're, it feels like, Oh, [00:24:00] I have to do all this setting up. What about what about in terms of the, the body placement? Because one thing I noticed is when I put the things on Tik TOK compared to everybody else, my face was like, Oh God, this is like, this is no Lou Bortone: good. Consider where the person's watching from, and a lot of people are watching on their phone, especially if it's a vertical video. So oftentimes if I'm doing a webinar and I'm sharing slides that are landscape, I realized, well, I can't put this on TikTok or Instagram Reels because it's going to squish it. But like, again, using software like Descript, we can take a video like this and put, you know, the people, Vertically so that it still works. So what I do see a lot, and it's funny cause I did another video about this, is it just, people don't have a very good sense of the spatial awareness. Like there'll be way down here, like, hello. And the trick that I, I heard that works is that, you know, think in terms of like, you don't want any more headroom than you [00:25:00] could fit a golf ball on the top of your head. So. You know, you don't want to be too close. You don't want to be too, too far away. Sarah: So what about here? Like Lou Bortone: it's kind of like, I think, you know, we were used to seeing that from news anchors and TV. It's usually like, you know, the, the typical shot is head and shoulders kind of shot, but again you know, if there are people doing videos who are yoga instructors or something like that, they got to go way back and be No, I think it's really just a matter of being aware of where you are in the camera. Oftentimes we'll see on zoom maybe somebody's on a laptop and they're looking up and you're looking up their nose. It's like, that's no fun. You know, just try to. Have a straight on you know, and use the photography rule of thirds where your eyes should be on the top third of the line. And if you've got graphics, those should be on the lower third, which is why they call lower thirds. So it's just having a sort of a spatial awareness of where you are, what's going on on screen. Sarah: Right. Yeah. [00:26:00] Yeah. I think a lot of it also comes back to confidence and just doing it a few times and not caring if it doesn't look good and just keep doing Lou Bortone: it, right? Yeah. So it's funny when we do, like we did the video for introverts thing a few years ago, but when we do when I do these challenges, I say, you know I do my first video in the car after I just came from the gym. So it's like, okay, this is the worst I'm going to look. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to set the bar really low so it can only get better. And you know, I'm in the car, the lighting's bad, I'm sweaty, but okay, I'm going to start there and then work my way towards better videos as I go. Sarah: Right. Yeah, that's a, that's a good way of putting it. And I remember those videos after kickboxing, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know if I would bear that, but yeah. . Lou Bortone: Well, and I think, you know women have a harder time because of the expectations. Like, oh, you know, my hair has to look good and I have to be wearing. Right, whatever. But I think people are less concerned [00:27:00] about that now than they used to be. Sarah: I think so too. And it's so refreshing. Lou Bortone: Yeah. Cause we just show up on zoom and it's like, look, you know I just came back from the gym or I'm, you know, I've been doing this, that so it's really more about, you really have to. Focus on the message and not so much the quality is important, but it's, it's less important than, than your message and you, and what you're Sarah: delivering. You know what that makes me think of is it's funny that we haven't kind of changed our headshots yet to being more human because sometimes you go on somebody's website and it's this beautiful girl. Like. Once in a lifetime that they look like that. And then you see their YouTube videos and you're like, Oh, they're actually human, Lou Bortone: right? And I, I did have photos when we were in Italy. I'm like, Oh, I want to have my pictures with really old buildings in the background and things like that. And then when people show up, they're like, Oh, you don't look like you look on, on [00:28:00] screen. So I used to do a really silly trick. Okay. Back in the Photoshop days is I would make my image actually a little wider so that I'd look heavier. And then when I showed up in person, people would say, Oh, you have you lost weight? So I was doing that reverse Photoshop, like, well, I want to look better in person. So I'm going to, but again, it's, it's, it is all about that authenticity and connection. And I talk about building loyalty through video, because again, it's really more about A relationship than about what camera you're using. Sarah: Yeah, it really feels like it's. I explained it in levels of intimacy, right? And so people sign up to your newsletter that they get your emails. That's the kind of the low level or before that it's even social media. Right. And then there's a higher level is newsletter and even higher letter that level Dell will be YouTube or, you know, any kind of video. And then probably [00:29:00] zoom calls where it's like in person zoom calls and then the actual in person meeting. But yeah. I do feel already, you know, we're seeing each other's facial expressions and that, yeah, that creates trust and loyalty. I Lou Bortone: totally agree. Yeah. And again, you know, even though, thank goodness we're past the pandemic and live events are coming back and conferences are back, there's still going to be that hybrid events, people working from home much more than they used to. I mean, my kids who are 25 they have never worked in an office. Everything they've done is, is on screen, on zoom, on Google meet, whatever it is. That's just the way they work now. Yeah, Sarah: yeah, yeah. No, it's crazy. Yeah, it really is. So let us talk a little bit to wrap up around the future. So we mentioned AI, we mentioned that, you know, Google is not really easy anymore to have your [00:30:00] blog posts featured. So what is, what do you see the future of video? How do you see it? Lou Bortone: I think it's, you know, obviously there's going to be a lot more volume because people are going to continue to flock to YouTube and watch YouTube shorts. I think we're going to see, you know, shorter bursts of videos, like. TikTok and Instagram reels are going to continue and it's a little harder to make the connection there because you're on for a shorter amount of time. But I think we're going to see the shorter videos, promoting podcasts and longer content where you really can connect because again, you're obviously going to make a better connection with somebody if you're seeing or hearing them for, you know, 15, 20 minutes, rather than. Forty five seconds and i think the other thing is that there may be a little bit of a not really a backlash but sort of an anti AI thing like okay i've seen the robotic you know synthetic version of blue but where's the real you know i'm gonna show up on facebook live and not be perfect but be real so i think you'll start [00:31:00] to see a little bit more of you know as much as we're going to be using AI that's still not going to you know literally replace the person and their message. Sarah: Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I'm, I'm all for AI, but exactly. It's still, in a way it makes the videos that we're doing even more special and more human. So, so maybe that's also a good. Lou Bortone: Yeah. So, yeah, because that's the, you know, it's almost like if you send out an email blast, it's not very personal. If you send out an, an AI video, it's great, but it's not. You know, it's personal or familiar or engaging. And even now that chat GPT is, is starting to put in I think it's called Sora where you can put in a prompt and chat GPT will create a video from nothing, which is great, but it's still not. You, I don't think so. What Sarah: does it do? It creates an avatar of you or just, Lou Bortone: you know, if you say create a video about a trip [00:32:00] to, to Boston mass, it's going to pull in footage from Boston and scenes and sites. And I think, you know, eventually if you record yourself, it'll be able to do sort of a facsimile of you, but it's still not going to be the real you. So, yeah, Sarah: some interesting, interesting things coming our way. That's for sure. Lou Bortone: Yeah, it's crazy. So I think there's still gonna be a place, a really important place for those videos. If I do a lot of video email, I just sort of, you know, rather than sending email, I do a video on loom and, and share something. And I think again, that's more personal. Yeah, it takes a little bit more time, but I think it also has a lot more impact because you feel like, oh, wow, this person's actually talking to me. It's not going to 1000 people. Yeah, I love Sarah: that. Yeah. I love those videos. I remember them from, from the, the trip in Tuscany. One thing we didn't talk about so much, and maybe it's something that we don't need to worry about is the whole algorithm thing, because obviously we're replacing the [00:33:00] Google algorithm by a YouTube algorithm. So how much are you paying attention and telling your clients to pay attention to the algorithm and making sure it gets, you know, right? Yeah, Lou Bortone: I mean, as long as I've, I've been on YouTube since the very beginning, and it's constantly changing and it's hard to keep up with. And I actually work with a YouTube coach just to try to stay on top of it. Can, and he keeps telling me the same thing and I've heard it over and over. And I think it's the best idea is make videos for humans, not algorithm. Don't try to game the system. Don't do keyword stuffing. I mean, I, I was talking to him about keywords and tags and he's like, just don't worry about it. It doesn't even matter anymore. Just make, you know, know who your audience is and, and try to connect with them and give them what they expect from you, what they want from you. And don't say, oh, you know, I'm going to make a knitting video because knitting is really hot. This is like, well, that's not what I do. So, so don't try to gain the system because you're not going to figure it [00:34:00] out and just make videos for an audience and for a person rather than for an algorithm. Man, Sarah: that's really refreshing because it feels like we're trying to figure out the algorithm and by the time you figured it out, it changed again, Lou Bortone: right? I know it's like I used to have coaches are like, okay, your title has to be 69 characters and your description has to be this and you know, it's still important to optimize your video the best you can, but at the end of the day, you know, spend more time making the video than trying to, you know, figure out just the exact keyword to include. Yeah. Sarah: Wow, I'm glad I asked you that early Lou Bortone: relief. It's like save, save you a lot of trouble in, in SEO research. And it's not completely, you know, it's not that important anymore. It's still counts for something, but like my YouTube coach is like, don't worry about the keywords for the tags and keywords, just put in different spellings of your name. So if somebody spells your name wrong, they'll still find you like, okay. [00:35:00] So so it's, you know, and, and the other thing is that with YouTube. It's shifted so much. I mean, maybe keywords were 80 percent of the people finding your video and now it's like 10%. So, and I even look at my analytics and I say, Oh, you know, only a few of these viewers came from search. The vast majority of them came from suggested videos of people finding the video because they, you know, they're seeking you out and they know, Oh yeah, I need video advice or I need to know how to do such and such. Okay. Sarah: Interesting. Yeah. So it just keeps, keeps on changing. So as long as you put your videos out there, you're, Lou Bortone: you're doing something right. Consistency is really, really important. I mean, YouTube likes consistency and YouTube likes watch time. So people always say, well, should I be doing video shorts or longer videos? And really a combination is best because you're sort of getting the best of both worlds. But YouTube, you know, the algorithm still does reward watch time. So if people start a video with you and then stick with it, [00:36:00] YouTube loves that because you're on the channel longer. So that's why I think podcasts are doing so well on YouTube because tend to stick with the, you know, the whole podcast rather than just watch two minutes of it. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: That's good to know. Well Last question. What would you say people who are just starting out and they're kind of, and maybe they're introverts, what's the first video that they should do? Lou Bortone: I think that the lowest hanging fruit is live video, Facebook Live, YouTube Live. I mean, you can go on and do a video. Maybe you just do it into a Facebook group. But I think live videos have a little bit less of an expectation of perfection. So you can show up, you can make a few mistakes. You can. Do your ums and ahs, whatever, and people are not going to be that concerned about it. So I think practicing with live video is a really good way to get your feet wet and sort of get, you know, ease your way into videos. And then after you've done a bunch of those and you realize like, Oh my God, I didn't die on [00:37:00] video. Then you can say, now I'm going to go record a video for my homepage and maybe I'll make that more professional. Sarah: That's, that's cool. And so in live video, does that mean that people can actually come on live? Right? Lou Bortone: Yeah. And you know, with like Facebook live, again, you can, you can say, I'm only going to go live to my private group. So maybe you feel a little bit safer starting there because you know, the folks in your group. Right. Oftentimes I'll do a video and then on the Facebook setting, I'll do only me. So like, okay, it's, it's live, but it's not, nobody's seeing it. And then maybe later on, I'll say, okay, that, that wasn't so bad. I'm going to change that view to public. So even though you recorded it ahead of time, you didn't make it live until afterwards. Yeah. Sarah: Love that. Very good. Well, thanks so much for sharing all your godfatherly knowledge. Thank you. It's been great. Tell people please where they can find you and, and I know you have a, a free tool for us as well. Lou Bortone: Everything's at [00:38:00] loubortone. com. And I also like people sometimes have trouble planning their video, what they're going to say. So I have a free video planner at loubortone. com forward slash. And that'll just help you sort of map out your video and, and know what you're going to say. And you don't have to script it. You don't have to have it all, you know, word for word. Sometimes it just helps to know, okay, I'm going to do my intro and I'm going to do these three points. And then I have a call to action. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I do. I think it's really helpful because. By the time you're two thirds in, you don't remember how you wanted to end it. And so it's kind of good. Lou Bortone: Yeah. A few bullet points. And then there's always, you know, editing. You can always go into Descript and use the AI to take out all your filler words and, and sound smarter. Sarah: That's great. I always ask one last question to all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? Lou Bortone: Wow. At my age, just waking up, but, but yeah, I mean, it's [00:39:00] here in the U. S. in February in New England, it's, it's chilly out, but you know, the sun's out and everybody's healthy and, you know, it's all good. Nice. Sarah: Wonderful. Well, let's hope it stays like that. It's really good to reconnect with you. Thanks so much for being on the show. Lou Bortone: Thank you. Appreciate it. Sarah: And that's a wrap for today. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Lou and his work at loubortone. com. Lou also has a free video planner for us that helps us plan the content of our video before we hit that recording button. So you'll find this at loubartone. com forward slash planner. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more about our community at [00:40:00] humane. marketing forward slash circle. And you'll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 6. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:41:00] soon.
42:28 4/5/24
Authentic Business is a Practice
In today’s episode we have the pleasure to talk to George Kao, a seasoned entrepreneur and advocate of authentic business growth. George unveils his 111 Formula, a holistic approach designed to cultivate authenticity in entrepreneurship. We explore why George views business as a practice akin to athletics, emphasizing discipline and continual growth. Discover what truly constitutes an authentic business and gain invaluable insights into effective market research. George shares his philosophy on "gentle launches" and explores the intersection of AI with authentic business practices. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that empowers entrepreneurs to navigate their business journey authentically and ethically. In this real conversation, we talked about: Why business is a practice - and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes What an authentic business really is How to do market research and why George’s approach to launches (he calls them gentle launches) George’s shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business Our Collab Workshop on April 2nd (go to to sign up) and much more... --- full Ep 185 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded people. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency, what works and what doesn't work in business. [00:01:00] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and build trust. Vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane Marketing slash circle, and if you prefer one-on-one, support from me. My Humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my. Heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a [00:02:00] sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion, and I'm speaking to George Kao about how to grow an authentic business. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking [00:03:00] about, but you can download your one page plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. George: marketing Sarah: forward slash one page, the number one and the word marketing. page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these for your business. You know, authentic business and George Cow is a business mentor who infuses his teaching with a unique spiritual perspective since 2009, he has been helping people. Thousands of coaches, consultants, healers, and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful businesses. George has published five books spanning the topics of authentic business, content marketing, joyful productivity, George: and spiritual growth. In this Sarah: real world. Conversation, real and authentic George: conversation may speak about Sarah: why business is a practice and why George refers to entrepreneurs as athletes, [00:04:00] what an authentic business really is, how to do market research, and why George's approach to launches. He calls them gentle launches. It also feels like a struggle. George, it's shared fascination with AI and how he thinks it fits into an authentic business. George: When do I Sarah: my thoughts George: as well on that topic. Authentic business Sarah: tries to, I guess, solve both of those issues by, by bringing, I'm just going to say it like personal George: development or spiritual growth into all the actions we take in our Sarah: business. So for example George: in the beginning, you know, when we're struggling to get clients and clarify our message and all that stuff that process itself doesn't have to. It doesn't have to feel like, Oh, I'm postponing the fulfillment of my life and my, my purpose, but like the actual work of [00:05:00] clarifying and putting systems together can be done from a deeper purpose of service. Service to our higher self, actually, and then, of course, service to humanity or the people that we most have compassion for and want to want to support and uplift through the products and services of our business. So, it's like, it's like. No matter what stage we're at, whether we're, we're, we're like the, the, the struggling beginner all of that can be actions taken in, you know, like I said, in, in service or in, in, in in alignment with our deeper, more, Purpose of life so that it's not like, I mean, I use this, but then, you know, sort of mundane example of if you're doing bookkeeping and you're not a bookkeeper, let's say you're not, it's not something that you'd naturally love to do. You can be like, ah, let me just get this out of the way. And, oh my God, so it's such a, such a, so tedious to have to like, look at these numbers or whatever, [00:06:00] or you can take a moment and say, this is my life also like, like, this is not. Yeah. Do this so that I can have, I can live life. No, no. This very moment is life. And therefore, how shall I live? It's like, Oh, okay. Bookkeeping. How can I come to it with a perspective of curiosity about the numbers and what the numbers suggest to the greater narrative of what my business developing into, how can I bring focus? You know, can, how can I practice focus in this moment? How can I practice gratitude that I can even Even have a business or even, like, think about this, you know, or even work on numbers. You know, some people can't even don't even have a computer, right? Like, like, how can I have the gratitude? And what does this moment mean for my personal development? Like, right now, like, and we don't have to spend an hour journaling before we do it. I mean, literally, most of us, even if we took. Two minutes [00:07:00] to just pause and say, what is the meaning of this moment? And the, the potential deeper potential at this moment, it changes. And it's like, what if our entire day could be like this? And that to me is really the core spirit of authentic business is at the beginner. For the beginners like that, and then later on you know, businesses like yours and mine, where things are humming along, it's like, rather than just go, I'm making money now and whatever, but it's like, how can I yet again bring my money. Courage to be, to be vulnerably exploring what my, my true purpose is in my business and, and pivot when I need to, but it's all like, I think of it as marketing, the act of marketing is a business finding is calling, you know, it's a business exploring with the market and with ourselves, what the calling of the businesses. And at the same time, the actions of a [00:08:00] business is also a stage. Okay. For our continued personal evolution. And then, so it's like, no matter what stage of the business, the authentic part of it is how much soul is being placed into this moment. And if there is, if there's soul in this moment, then I say, Hey, that's off, that's an authentic business. So Sarah: that's yeah, you and I need to have a conversation about my third book. I'm working on business. Like we're human because what you just is, yeah, it's very much aligned with I, I feel like you've talked a lot about spaciousness as well, right. And just, Yeah, just being a human as well as having a business and, and oftentimes we feel like as entrepreneurs, we, yeah, we need to struggle so much. And that means filling our calendars to the brim because we're just [00:09:00] not doing enough. But what you're saying is the opposite is just like, well, the business, and I think in your YouTube video, you share that the business is a practice and authentic business is a practice. And so it becomes. Part of your life, like it fits into your life. Yeah. And it's not like we need to fit our lives kind of around our business. The, you know, few minutes that are left each day. So it's the, it's the other way around. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I think oftentimes, and I'm curious what you, if you have the same feeling, authentic kind of became this buzzword a little bit. Yes. And it became this thing that we. Again, need to use our left brain in order to do authentic, like, you know, do authentic marketing. Well, here's the seven steps on how to do that. That's not what this is, George: right? Yeah. It's interesting. In 2023 Miriam [00:10:00] Webster, the dictionary company said the word of the year was authentic. Yeah. Yeah. So it really is literally a buzzword. And I feel like that the word of the year is often at least a year behind what the culture actually has been so authentic has been around for several years. I feel like as a, as a, as a very important or a very common kind of like bringing, bringing people back to, to what's meaningful for them. And anyway, but yeah, it's, I, I, I, so, you know, Appreciate this idea of practice, because to me, it's it almost doesn't matter what we're doing in our business. I mean, if, if, if we are, if we are living an authentic life, I mean, kind of kind of starting there. I mean, I mean, let's set aside authentic business. Like, the question is, are we living an authentic life? It's like, it's like, like, are we dedicated to living the most meaningful? And [00:11:00] highest life or deepest life, however you want to put it, like, if, if, yes, we are dedicated to that, why I don't see why, why the, I mean, those of us, those of you who are listening to this podcast, you're part of Sarah's audience, of course, you're dedicated to living the highest and the deepest life. It's like, what else is there, you know, what other possibility is there that actually draws us forward. And so if we are, in fact, have that passion and that dedication, then of course we have to bring that spirit into hopefully everything we do in our business. And the opposite of this is I often see come across spiritual teachers Well, they're spiritual teachers, so they must be dedicated to the highest and deepest and the best life possible. And yet I sign up for their email list or I follow them on social media or whatever. And their marketing is [00:12:00] just, it does. If there's like a, like, it's like a big. Disconnect between how they market themselves and how they sell their stuff to what they espouse as their principles and values. And I'm like, why, why is it that, why does business and marketing have to be. Different somehow, it's like separate thing. Yeah. It's like, it's like, oh, I, I, I'm, I'm very deep and, and, and real when I'm with my clients. And now let's do our marketing and using, you know, really manipulative funnels and really like scarcity type tactics. I'm like, what is going on here? It's like, why is there such a disconnect? It's kind of like the, yeah. You know, like the preacher who is so holy on, you know, on TV. And then, and then they have like some dark, you know, scandals and they're like, they're, they're, they're, they beat up their families and they cheat on their wives and it's like, it's like, it's this disconnect and, and and that's what I'm trying to say. Authentic means that you are authentic in, in everything that you do. [00:13:00] Yeah. Sarah: I think the issue is I, I kind of. Looked into that because of in the whole thing. Well, marketing like we're human selling like we're human business, like we're human. So what does it mean to be human? So I, I looked at Yuval Harari and one of the things that he shares is. One of the distinctions between us and other species is that we are myth makers. So we're really good at creating these new truths that we then all believe as humanity. And I think this online business world is one of those myths, right? And so everybody just started to believe. This is how business works online, or this is how online marketing works. And so even the, the really spiritual coaches, they're like, this is the mess that everybody is believing that myth. So I need to believe that [00:14:00] truth as well. And so that's why we need people like you are like, well, no, you don't have to believe this myth. There is another way, but I thought that was a fascinating concept. It's true. It's like, We decide this new thing, and then everybody follows, and that's what happened you know, 15 years ago. George: Really, really good observation. Yes it's there's, there's also this setting aside our inner authority. When it comes to, Oh, well, business, I'm not a business person. Well, I'm not a marketing expert. I'm a spiritual teacher or I'm a holistic healer, or I'm a life coach or that, that, that's, that's where I shine and I'll, I'll just, you know, business, they, they seem like they know what they're talking about with business and marketing, so I'll follow their systems that they're, they tell me the systems work, so let me just follow those systems. It feels off to me. It doesn't feel authentic to me, but it's going to get to an authentic end at the end when I finally can work with [00:15:00] clients. Right. And, and this is the old, you know, means to an end fallacy, which is, Oh, I just have to do this thing. That's soulless or that's not really me so that I can get to the part that is me. That is like, well, okay, particularly when it comes to your own business. Oh, you do it is going to be how you do end up doing just about everything else. So it's like the, the mindset you take on when you follow the mainstream business experts and the marketers ends up corrupting the mindset of your entire business and your audience feels that. I mean, this is why. People have been kind of looking at my stuff and following me for, for all these years. It's like they feel the difference. It's like there is a difference and they feel it. And I'm, and I feel it too, because I used to be, I used to be quite unhappy, deeply unhappy when I was following those systems without realizing that that's what I was doing was setting aside my own [00:16:00] authority to follow someone else's authority. Yeah, they said that, you know, even though it didn't feel right and finally, when I, when I get shut out all that stuff down and say, no, I don't have to do that. Let me try to try. It's what is could be an authentic way of doing business and marketing. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can really now settle deeply rest deeply and, and, and work deeply because now I see it as a practice. That's a soulful practice as well. Yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, we're hosting a workshop together on April 2nd, right? And it's called the 111 Authentic Business Formula. So tell us a little bit what this formula is about and it has all these different numbers and practices. So tell us George: a little bit. Totally. Well I'm yeah, I'm glad to be able to tell you about it. And I do hope those who are listening to this will sign up for our, our joint workshop [00:17:00] because this is where I'm going to dive, dive deep into the one 11 formulas. Okay. So, so why one 11, first of all, the backstory is I've always found that to be some kind of magical number for me 11, one 11, 11, 11. Those have been at times, I feel like at times, particularly when I needed, you know, encouragement or I guess, quote, unquote, self help. Signs from the universe that that, you know, I, I deeply believe this to be true for myself and for all of us that we are in some mysterious, magical way, being deeply taken care of and being guided. With a still small voice within us, and sometimes the universe is kind to give us little signals of like, yeah, just remember you're not alone and it's going to be okay and not just okay. You are on a brilliant path. It seems windy, long and winding road sometimes, but [00:18:00] it is a necessary path toward your Highest good and your ability to serve the world in the, in the most powerful way, authentically powerful ways possible. So the 1 11 has been that kind of number for me. So when I was you know, I get asked by my clients and students all the time. It's like, all right, just give us. Give us, you know, tell us exactly what to do, you know, and I always, I always kind of fight against that because I'm like that is the opposite of authentic. If I tell you exactly, exactly what to do on a Tuesday at 10 a. m. you should do this and Thursday at 2 p. m. you should do that. I'm like, then you are following my authority again, rather than. Discovering your own inner authority, but still they're like, yes, yes, we get it. We get it. We get it, but we still need more clarity. Some structure, please on what to do. I'm like, okay, okay, let me, let me try to put together a structure. That has embedded in it the wisdom of all my successes and failures and having worked with [00:19:00] hundreds of clients and seeing their ups and downs and it seems what seen what's worked and what, what are the pitfalls? Let me try to put this structure together. So that's what I did. I said, okay, if I could guarantee you success in business, an authentic business success, this would be my best bet. And I always say, no one can guarantee you success, of course. And if anyone is saying, I'm going to guarantee you, just sign up for my program. You should run the other direction because they are either lying to you or they are. Going to become your, your authority instead of either going to supplant your in our authority. And that's not good for your sovereignty. And and so I said, okay, this formula has a lot of wiggle room in it. I'm going to give you numbers, but the numbers are more of a suggested shall I say prioritization of sorts, but you can, of course, take this formula and make it your own. So I'll [00:20:00] give you I'll give you the sort of the quick overview of the of the. But what the numbers are, and then, you know, we could talk as much as we have time here about it. And we'll go, we'll dive deep in the workshop itself. So the 111 is made up of 111 components to this so called guaranteed formula, or the best that I can do. And it has, I'll just give you some of the numbers here so you can get a sense of it. It has 40 for zero content experiments, because I. Believe deeply, not just believe, but I've seen in my own life and in my clients and students lives, the way we really discover our voice as well as our message. As well as that blessed intersection between imagine your passion and natural talents. Okay. So what you're, what you're deeply built for and led toward is one circle. And the other circle is what the world needs [00:21:00] and wants at this time. And that blessed intersection between what you're built for and what you're led towards and what the world is wanting at this time, which is the market. Okay. What they're happy to spend money on, what they're, what they love to engage with that blessed intersection of the two of them that I consider is our authentic business calling. And we discovered that through content experiments. Okay. Meaning we, whenever we. Try sharing a message or we have an idea, and we're going to just put it out there and see if people get it. Oftentimes, they might not get it. We might be ahead of our time. So we're not might not be saying it in a way that is understandable yet to this to this. Anyway, so 40 content experiments are, you know, and with the one 11 is, you know, Loosely meant to be a 1 year plan, so in the 1 year, you kind of do this and so it's like 40 content experiments over the course of a year. Not too many. It's like, maybe 1 a week, you know, something like that. If you work 40 to 40 weeks in a year, and then we've [00:22:00] got 10 stage 2 content pieces and we're going to dive deep into in the workshop what this means. But essentially, when out of the 40 content experiments. Which of those 10, I mean, as you go along, every time you do four of them for content experiments, you look back and go, which of those four had the most engagement? This is a clue, an important hint. Into what my intersection is between what I love and what the world wants. Ah, okay. So the stage two is basically taking one of those four and improving it and distributing even further. Okay. So that's what stage two content. So 10, 10 of those. During the year, definitely not too many, and that's at stage 2 is what actually builds your audience for the 40 content experiments is for you. I mean, you publish it for you, you don't you don't worry about the metrics and whatever you analyze it afterwards after 4 of them, but the stage [00:23:00] 2 is really what's going to grow your audience over time because it's the best of. Okay and then and then so now we're up to 50, right? 40 plus 10. So now we have 20. Market research conversations. Again, we're going to dive deep into the, in, in, during the workshop, 20 market research conversations over the course of a year, it seems like a lot, but in my early years of authentic business, I was doing more like 40 a year. Actually. I was, I was sometimes even doing more than 40 a year and a market research conversation. What is that? It's you being in actual conversation. With another human being that you're able to reach. Okay. So one of your fans, one of your friends, one of your colleagues, one of your clients, past clients, et cetera, where you are asking, where you are talking with them about what it is that they want, because, and particularly what they want as related to the [00:24:00] kind of stuff you offer. So that those conversations bring huge clarity to, Oh my God, I should be offering this. I should be creating content on that. I should be selling this. I didn't even know. And I like being able to talk with people like this, especially like on zoom or video, you know, or in person, but like where you can see their expressions is hugely helpful. So, so those 20 market research conversations sometimes turn into clients also, but we're really approaching them as out of genuine curiosity and care. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's that. And then the next 20, there's 20 collabs, collaborations. And again, my favorite. Yeah, exactly. Here's what we're doing, right? This counts as one of them. Right. And in the, in the early days when I was trying to build my audience and grow my business, I was doing, I was doing 40 collabs a year. So I'm only asking for 20 from, from all of you. And again, these are all, there's no hard and fast rules, right? These numbers are suggested and you can always change them. Take them as [00:25:00] whatever fits your rhythm, but a collaboration is well, Sarah, you excel at these reaching out and connecting with colleagues whom you're fascinated by their work. And they probably are interested in you there. If they respond to you, they're at least interested in connecting. There's kind of a bit of a heart connection. And I really go with heart connections. I mean, I, I interviewed lots of people. I've interviewed lots of people over the years. Only certain one of them, certain few of them like you have a hard connection where I'm like, I want to keep up with this person. And it's like, you grow. So, so these 20 collapse over a year are not like, oh, I'm dedicated to these 20 people for life. No experiments. You're just reaching out and, and doing maybe doing an interview, interviewing them for your channel. That's the easiest for me is I interviewed people for my channel. Just kind of sense into that connection. Is there something more for us to keep doing together? If not, that's okay. At least I, I did them a little favor by sharing them with my audience and my audience. I did them a [00:26:00] favor by saying, Hey, check out this person who could be really cool. You might want to follow them too. Having that abundance mindset, as you do, Sarah, is, well, it's just makes us happier, number one, and I think it's more true. T with a capital T of what reality is. Anyway, so that 20 collapse Sarah: and I love how it feeds into the authentic, authentic business. Yes, yes. Because I used to, you know, before the humane marketing and everything, I used to like be in these joint venture clubs and affiliate clubs and it was nothing like that. It was not a collaboration. It was masked as a collaboration. But it wasn't, so it wasn't that authentic heart centered kind of George: connection. So I'm so appreciate you bringing that up because, Oh my gosh, I've been there. Maybe some of the people who listened to this have been there or have been invited to these kinds of things where they, they, [00:27:00] they, they sound like they care and like want to collaborate with you and say, Oh, we would love to have you in our, in our summit. Would you like to be a, one of our guest speakers? And then you reply back and says, Oh, that sounds wonderful. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah. Okay. So to be this, you have to have a minimum of 5, 000 email lists. You have to send two emails to your list of 5, 000 to be qualified. I'm like, okay, so you're really using my list to grow your list. Got it. And then once I, once I show up in the, the, the few times I've said yes to this kind of thing, I show up and sometimes they say, just go and record 20 minutes, you know, just go and record 20 minutes of something and we'll add it to our summit. I'm like, Oh, you don't really care, do you? You just want me to do whatever. And then, like, and then, like, I never hear from them again until several years later. Oh, let's do another summit where you can build my list. It's like, oh, yeah. So, you know, collabs are really an experimentation of, are you us? I mean, could I say this? Are you a soulmate? And [00:28:00] I believe in business. We have many soulmates. Are you one of my soulmates? Let me, let me, let's play together for a bit and see if it anyway. So, so 20 collabs and then moving on to 10 gentle launches, 10 offers and gentle launches. 10 over the course of a year. Now, again, this sounds like a lot, but let me tell you what a gentle launches, a gentle launch is not. All right, get ready for a 90 day, you know, challenge where you're going to have like 90 videos, you're going to make it, you're going to have this funnel where after the challenge, they get like five webinars until they join your year long. No. That's yeah, some people do launches like that and it exhausts me just to even talk about it. Okay. What a gentle launch for me is, is ridiculous, ridiculously light. It's two posts, two messages. That's it. Again, we're going to dive deeper into what these two messages are, but essentially it's It's a humble [00:29:00] and curious offering to your audience, the people you're able to reach. Even if it's right now, it's your, you know, 200 Facebook friends or whatever. It's like you're a humble and gentle offering of, Hey, everyone. I'm really this is work that I love doing. And I love doing it for these kinds of people in this kind of way. And I'm just wondering if, if, if this resonates, With you, I have some spots right now. And so it's, it's a gentle offering. It's very authentic. It's very real. And then the second message is simply it's, it's, it's that same offering, but you could, you could talk about a a case study, or you could talk about the story of how you became so passionate about this area. Or you can, you can talk about the reminder of, Oh, this thing is starting or whatever. So it's like two messages only. And it is and that that's the same two messages are sent. Everywhere you're on social media and sent to your email list. If you have one, and I find this Sarah, it's so, it's so interesting. I've been doing this gentle offering stuff for at least four years, [00:30:00] five years, probably actually, maybe longer than that too. Every time I launch something, it's two messages only. And I find that over time, my audience has leaned in more and more and more. Because whereas usually when someone else launches something, we have to, like, as an audience member, we have to, like, almost hold them off because it's so coming on so strong. So many emails, so many posts. And it's like, okay, all right. All right. I just, oh, yeah. Another thing about their launch. Whereas because of my gentle launch rhythm, my audience, I find I started to lean in more and often people go, Oh my gosh. And it's like, Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's okay. I'm going to have another offer in a month or two. And then they, they lean in and I find that now even one message. Now I can tell if it's going to be a successful launch or a medium launch or time to pivot. And it's so helpful for me because I, I do a single light launch and like, Oh yeah, this is going to do really well. The second message, like usually the first message brings [00:31:00] a lot of the sales and then the second message brings some of the sales too. But it's like once your audience is leaning in, they pay attention whenever you offer something and if it's right for them, they're going to buy much more quickly than. The usual launches where it's like, Oh my God, it's full of anxiety. And like, Oh my God, this is going to work out. And anyway, so 10 gentle launches. Sarah: I like that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm really personally listening and paying attention because I, I think that's something I'm wanting to shift as well. So just. I, I felt like my launches were gentle, but I do still feel like, because I actually just had feedback that, you know, there was too many emails and so it's like, yeah, I, I, I get it. We're all, you know, having too much. And even though, you know, even though the content is gentle, it's still, George: it's still the rhythm itself. And the funny thing about it is that. Not only can the rhythm be gentle for our audience, it's also gentle for [00:32:00] our, for our own systems because we're, because, you know, writing two messages as opposed to writing 10 later, which one is easier for us. And, and really, I really had, and you're lucky that I can tell you from my experience, because I had to like, it was, it was ironically, a lot of courage to only send two emails to only make two posts, like in the, in the early days. I'm like, I'm let's see what happens if I only do two of them, but it worked out so well over time. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching this to the whole world. Like, please try this, but it, it, it takes a bit of patience because your audience needs to get used to it. Right. Like two or three launches later, they're like, Oh my God, I got to lean in now. Well, the thing Sarah: is, I only do three launches because I only have three programs. So would you say maybe then three George: emails? So. Yeah. I mean, of course, now let me be clear. Yes. When we have a larger program, it does [00:33:00] warrant more messages. I agree. Because like when I launched my year long program I send, well, we're going to talk deeper about this in the, in the workshop. I call it my circles of enrollment, meaning there's the inner circle that I send to, and there's the middle circle that I sent to, and then there's the outer circle. Each one has two messages. So it ends up being six. Yeah. For my, for my yearlong program, I can't wait to talk more, but yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk deeper, but, but what I want to just wrap up here with gentle launches is I do encourage everyone listening to consider. Experimenting with more offers, lighter offers, which again, we will dive to more deep, but let me, let me finish the one 11 formula. Okay. So there's two more elements. Okay. There's, there's, if, if you've been taking notes and counting the numbers, now we're down to 11 elements left, 11 components left. Okay. So out of these 11 components, there's just two, two pieces. There's two categories. There's six [00:34:00] joyful productivity practices integrated. Okay, so 6 joyful productivity practices integrated over the course of a year is certainly quite spacious, but it's also very rational. So for those who haven't heard of joyful productivity, it's basically my framework for how to manage yourself in business. So this is everything from how to manage your time to your how to manage your energy. For your attitude to energy and physical, mental, emotional, how to manage the flow of information, all this information coming in through your email, social media, and also the information going out. So how to manage all that. Within your computer. So I have a course called joyful productivity that goes into 24 of these practices that from my perspective, and that's actually when I polled my audience on which of my courses I have, I now have 24 courses, actually 24 separate courses, only, but which of my 24 [00:35:00] courses do you love the most? The winner was joyful productivity. So anyway, so, so I have 24 practices in that course, and I'm only asking for six of them to be integrated per year. So essentially when you take that. Of course, it's like a four year program, so six times four, that's right for your program. So so, so six of them in a year means every two months you're focusing on one of the Georgia productivity practices and that's great because according to research, so called the average time it takes for, for someone to develop a new habit is two months, 67 days, basically, and approximately two months. So anyway, so those are six Practices of self management integrated, uplifted optimized, you know, kind of like upgrading your, your own way of managing this. Because I know I want to take one more moment to say this. Like I, a lot of people don't realize. I think being a solopreneur, being a successful one is more like being an athlete than, than [00:36:00] a hobby, hobby artist. And I think unfortunately that's how a lot of people authentic solopreneurs, solopreneurs I call them. That's how they take it. Oh yeah, it's kind of like my hobby. It's kind of like my art. Oh, I play on, and of course I play too. I play a lot, you know, the experimentations. The way I recommend everyone think of it, it's more like you're training for a marathon. It's really more like that. Which means you've got to be really organized if you want this thing to work and if you want to succeed and have a lot of good work life play balance, you've got to like go. I'm serious about my training regimen. If I'm going to run a marathon, I'm going to be serious about my training regimen, which means when am I going to get up? You know, what am I going to be eating? Right? I mean, for marathon, there's certain things. And then, you And how much am I going to train? How am I going to rest? Right? What's my rhythm of, of exercise versus rest. And, and what, what can I eat and what shouldn't I eat and all that stuff. Business is [00:37:00] kind of like that. I mean, for those of us who have been around for years, I've been around since 2009, most of the people who started with me are no longer doing their business. I think it's largely because they didn't treat their business like it, what I call a joyful productivity athlete. So anyway, so that's why it's really important. And then the final category, one 11. Is 5 client case studies and over the course of a year, I don't think that's too much. That's less than 1 every 2 months. And the client case study again will dive more deeply into this is simply this is simply. Before they came to work with me, this is what they were going through. This is what they came to me for during our work together. These are the elements of our work. They loved the most. That they found most helpful and then after our work now, their life has changed in this way. Their business has changed. Their relationship has changed. Their health has changed in this way or that way, whatever this we work with people on. So these case studies don't have to be like, Oh, my God, I, [00:38:00] you know, they were, they were broke and now they're making a million dollars an hour. Or, Oh, my God, they were on stage for cancer and now they're the picture of health. It doesn't have to be that dramatic, but, but what it does do is help us to see the journey of our clients and what really works well for our, our ideal clients. And it didn't really case studies are more or less for us. But of course, the piece of the study can be put out as marketing and very inspirational as well. So I Sarah: find. Thank you. Case study is so much more beneficial than, than testimonials, right? Because they're more authentic. That's the reason because you can actually follow the journey where the testimonials, it's just kind of like, it was amazing. And I made six figures, you know, like oftentimes they don't feel authentic. George: Yeah. And, and it's like, if you take on the case study mindset. It kind of even changes how you work with clients. 'cause you're now, you're now being more aware of the, the, their journey and you're really [00:39:00] curious how their journey is gonna turn out. So then you, you work with them in that kind of way. It's like, oh, let's, oh my gosh, you, you, you, you know, there's a pitfall here. Okay, let's, let's work with a pitfall. And seeing them as seeing the hero's journey throughout the whole thing. really amazing. I love that. So, so if you add those all together, you might have to listen to this again. Yeah. So you add them all together. Should add up to 111 and and, and yes, in our workshop, I can't wait to dive into the nuances of these different things. In fact, I, I'm, I'm hoping that those who attend the workshop will listen to this 1st, so that I will send Sarah: it out to, I don't have to, I George: don't have to get the overview again, but we can directly into, okay, what do I mean by content experiment? What exactly are the market research questions? What are the, what are, you know, Six of the most important joyful productivity practices, whatever we can, we can dive into the nuances and the details, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who's just actually listening to a podcast episode here about these things. So, yeah, Sarah: that's wonderful. [00:40:00] I'll use it as prep work. George: Yes. Yes. Sarah: Yes. Yes. To listen to it. Yeah, no, it is really fascinating. And I can't wait to dive in. Definitely the, the launches where I was like, Mm, 10 launches, you know, just the, I just a word. I'm very fond of words, certain words and others not right. And it's just a word launch kind George: of does like, I need to, I need to probably wording has always been one of my weaknesses. It's, it's, it's ironic because I'm a marketing person, but despite my weakness for wording, I've made a very successful business. So I'm open to anyone. So I Sarah: like the fact that you call it gentle, right? That definitely George: explains it. Or a light launch, sometimes I call it. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to, to learn more about that. And, and yeah, definitely gonna have your voice in the back of my head with the two messages. So, so thank you for that. [00:41:00] Yeah. I have one more question as we wrap this up, because it also feeds into the authentic and it's kind of timely. I know that just like me, you really like tech, you like AI as well. And so for a lot of people, that's kind of like an oxymoron. How could you like say authentic business, authentic marketing, and also like AI and chat sheet BT. So yeah. And then that's what's your answer? I love George: I love this question so much. Oh, my gosh. I have I've definitely made several videos about this on my YouTube channel, but I'll give it. I'll give an overview summary of things. So, 1st of all. The resistance against AI is reasonable. Okay. It's reasonable because, you know, they said it was going to take a lot of jobs and it has begun, it really is taking over a lot of human work and it's only going [00:42:00] to get worse. I, and the reason why I put a question mark on worse is because we can also see it as getting way better. So let me explain what AI does. Is it's able to speed up 10 times 100 times the work that and become tedious and automatable. Okay. For example when you are brainstorming ideas. Brainstorming examples and metaphors, analogies for something you're trying to teach or trying to explain, you can, of course, sit there and go, All right. All right. And for an hour, right? And you can brainstorm. I don't know how fast you are brainstorming. Maybe you could brainstorm 5 things in an hour or 2 things or 50 things, depending if someone is really, really good at idea generation. With chat, GPT or Google Gemini or any of the AI chat bot tools. Now you can, instead of brainstorming, maybe you were really slow before. I I'm pretty slow at [00:43:00] brainstorming. I mean, maybe I'll brainstorm like five things in an hour. Now I can brainstorm those five things in 15 minutes. With the help of chat, you PT. Now I think of, I think of AI as a smart intern intern, not, not you know, not on par with us. I don't think it. Okay. I don't think it will ever be on par with humans in terms of the integration of intuition, body hormones light lived by definition that cannot be, it doesn't have the lived experience of a human. So, but what it does is it gives us the average. I mean, as you use Google Gemini, chat, GBT, whatever, and you go into your field, you talk to it about your field, you'll see, oh, it's very average. I mean, The responses, well, by, by definition, it took all the blog posts from your field and averaged it out to say, well, this is basically what your field says, but it doesn't have the nuances that's unique to [00:44:00] you. And to me about our own fields, because when I talk to you about authentic business or about business, like your answers, like, give me a marketing plan about this. I'm like, oh my God, the marketing plan is so generic. I can't even stand it. This is not what I would give a client. But when I say help me brainstorm three different analogies to talk about this. And an instant within a minute, three analogies come up. I'm like, okay, I kind of like the first analogy, maybe go more in that direction. I definitely don't like the second one. The third one's kind of interesting. I like this part about it. And I work with it like an intern and it can helps me to refine. And I'm like, well, what about this? Have you thought of this? And it's like, well, I oftentimes talk to these. Yeah. I'm like, what about this? Have you thought of it? Like, no, that's a great idea to like, well, it's because it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't have the nuance that humans do. And so I don't, I never, so this is maybe the short answer to your question. I never use AI to do the actual writing. Or to do the actual, certainly not video, but certainly definitely not writing. I don't use it for writing George. What do you [00:45:00] mean? I use AI more than most people. I use it for brainstorming and for checking things and for as a thinking partner. But then I always look at it like, Oh, you're an intern. I know you, you're not that good yet. I mean, you're fast. You're very, you're very fast at giving average answers, but I'm going to take what you give me. I'm going to just up level it to the George cow or deepen it to the George cow way. So I really recommend it for that. As, as long as we see it as a smart intern thinking partner, I think we can get things done a lot faster. I've, I've, I, it has really sped up a lot of my work so that therefore we can do higher work. We can do higher Sarah: work or be more human. That's what I say as well. It helps us create more spaciousness to have a connection call or go out in nature or, you know, that's, that's the thing that a lot of these chat GPT prompts and things like that. It's, it's all about, well, create [00:46:00] more content, right? You do more. It's not about doing more, it's about being more productive, George: but gaining time, actually. It's gaining time and, and, and Google has, has just come out with a press release just as a few days ago. Okay. Basically saying this, we are now going hard on the Google search engine of getting rid of AI content. Not getting rid of it, but like we know, obviously Google is AI, very deep into AI. We know what's AI content and we're going to downgrade your website if you have a lot of it. That's what they've just came out with. So, so in other words, the more we get into AI, the AI is fortunately or unfortunately, it's not going away. It's only get more intensified built into every product now, right? Gmail now has AI and everything has AI. Now it's going to get even more embedded. The more that happens, the more there's room for authentic humanity in content and [00:47:00] offers and connections. Meaning like. AI is never going to get right the way that we are quirks the way that we pause on video because it's very natural. Yes, they'll get, please have 17 percent pauses for this video bot, but it's always going to feel off. It'll be Sarah: weird. It'll feel weird. Yeah, very strange. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. I knew that there would be alignment and it sounds like, yeah, you're using it for similar things. I, I also love, like, for example on LinkedIn posts where I want to do a list of emojis, you know, instead of the bullet points have emojis. It used to take me hours to look up a couple of emojis, give it the content and say, give me the emojis. And George: yeah, I asked AI, I have, of course, I know all the emojis. You can keep, keep, keep having a conversation. Give me more unique emojis. Well, what about this? What about that? And like, [00:48:00] I just look, look at it as a extended, Search engine. That's all it is. Like I help it solve problems. I figure trying to research things like those are, it's really fast at that. So let it do it, you know, Sarah: wonderful. Great. Well, wow. I can't wait for more of you, more of your. Content and more of the one 11 formula. So please everyone have a look at the workshop. It's under humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and it takes place on April 2nd. And we'd love to see you there. So can't wait for that, George, so much gratitude for you. Where can people find you if they can't make it to the podcast? Yeah. Oh the workshop. George: Tell anything is you can. Actually, this, this will be a fun exercise. Go to AI chat bot, chat GPT, Google Gemini being being chat and ask, tell me about George cow, authentic business coach. And then let it no, really. It's like, [00:49:00] okay, given what you know about George authentic business coach, what might he say? About this question that I have, I really welcome it and I'm actively, I'm like, well, it's going to take my job anyway. So I might as well actively partner with it to help me take my job so I can do, I can do more better work than this. Sarah: Have you experimented with the, with a chatbot? Bought George: I, I have, I have a custom experiment. I have a custom GPT Okay. Called the Authentic Business Coach. So those of you who have a chat, GPT subscription pro subscription or plus subscription, can actually find the authentic business coach Chat custom GPT, which are trained on all books. Oh, wonderful. My, I'll look that up. They're trained on all my books and it tries to sound like me, but of course, , it's, I, I talk with him myself. I'm like, yeah, you, you, you got it. Like. 60 percent right, what I might say, but it's, it's okay. It's better than nothing. Sarah: It's fun. Yeah. It's just fun to experiment with. Wonderful. Yeah. So go to chat GPT and look for George cow there. And otherwise you'll also find [00:50:00] them on on YouTube wherever, George: wherever, wherever, wherever books are sold and that Sarah: too. Yeah. You have so many wonderful. Well, thank you so much, George. And we'll see each other on George: April 2nd. Thank you. Thanks, Sarah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah: Take care. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and took notes about all the different numbers that make up the 1 1 1 formula. You can find out more about George and his work at georgecow. com and also look up at his YouTube channel, for example, or do what he suggested. And go to chat PT and type in George Kao. You'll also find his curated selection of articles about authentic marketing at George Kao as KAO. By the way, ka and dot com slash authentic dash marketing. And please do join us for the 90 minute workshop [00:51:00] on April 2nd, where we go in depth into these topics. All the details can be found at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. If you're part of our community, the humane marketing circle, you can join us for free and you get the recording as well. And if you're not part of the community yet, well, this is a good reason to join us. But otherwise it's donation based. The suggested price is 27, but there's also a pay when you can option 15. To become a member of the humane marketingforward. com. a marketing circle. You can go to humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 5. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as make two books, marketing like a human and selling George: like a human. so much for listening and being a [00:52:00] part of a generation of marketer's friends. For yourself. Sarah: We are changing history for America.
54:47 3/22/24
Pivoting for Good with Caroline Wood
In today's episode, we delve into "Pivoting for Good". We discuss the impact of purpose-driven pivots, explore non-traditional success metrics, and offer practical steps for entrepreneurs considering meaningful changes. This conversation aims to inspire and guide solopreneurs towards more humane, ethical, and sustainable business practices. Join us as we uncover how pivoting can be a powerful force for good. In this conversation, we talked about: Her recent Pivoting Summit and what inspired her to share these experiences from pivoters ‘Pivoting for Good’, a significant conversation among pivoters The trend to wanting to measure success using non-traditional metrics that go beyond mere financial gains Practical steps for entrepreneurs who are considering a pivot and much more... --- Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing. Caroline intro: Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of pivoting. It's not an official P of the seven Ps of humane marketing. But that's the topic today. And I guess Pivoting is kind of a combination of all the seven P's of Humane Marketing. As always, if you're a regular here, you already know the seven P's of Humane Marketing. But if you're new, this is your first time [00:03:00] here, a big warm welcome. You can download your one page marketing plan with the seven piece of humane marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not. Prescriptive, but it's reflective. So today I invited my colleague, Caroline Woods, to talk to us about pivots because she just recently hosted a summit slash event called the Pivot Narratives, where she featured many different pivotal stories from fellow entrepreneurs, including mine. So I thought I'd invite her for a conversation about pivoting for good. Caroline is an introvert who supports other introverts to redesign their businesses so that their business allows them to thrive, [00:04:00] rather than just survive. Ditching the idea that they have to pretend to be an extrovert to get ahead. Caroline is a corporate escapee, having spent 20 years working as a chartered accountant, working for large businesses and not for profits. She has wound her way around the world, working in Australia, her home country, the UK, Namibia, and Laos. In today's episode and conversation, we talked about her recent Pivoting Summit and what inspired her to share these experiences from Pivoters. The concept of pivoting for good, a significant conversation among the pivoters that participated the trend to wanting to measure success using non traditional metrics that go beyond mere financial gains, practical steps for entrepreneurs who are considering a pivot. And much more before we dive in, allow me one last plug for the Marketing Like We're [00:05:00] Human program that starts on March 14th and is actually a great fit for pivoters. Okay, I realized I said one last time already on the last episode. So sorry about the super last plug. So Marketing Like We're Human, aka The Client Resonator is my flagship program that I've been running since 2019. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you already know the seven P's of humane marketing, and that's exactly what we're working through in the program. So, passion, personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion and partnership. That's the framework that we follow. And besides in depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the Marketing Foundation, I often have participants who are in Not new to business. So they are ready for a pivot. They might have been in business [00:06:00] already for a while and just kind of going through the motions or not feeling happy with their business anymore or just realizing it's not what they're meant to do. It's not their calling. And so oftentimes I have participants like that in the group. That want to create their life's work and from the ground up, do it right this time so that when they do go out and market, it comes from within. So that's what we do in the program. We go deep and we create the foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part self development, part very pragmatic business best practices. It's part lift. Part right brain, part mind and heart. And if you go to humane. marketing forward slash program, there's a great number of testimonials and even whole case studies with videos from past participants. So go [00:07:00] and check out the details at humane. marketing forward slash program. And yes, we are starting on March 14th. 2024, so quickly get in touch with me so we can book a chat. You can either book a call directly on the program page or connect with me via LinkedIn or send me an email at sarah at humane dot marketing. I can't wait to hear from you. All right, let's dive into the conversation with Caroline about pivoting for good. video1858641342: Hi, Caroline. So good to see you again. We haven't seen each other for a long time, so it's good to hang out on Zoom and obviously then put it on the podcast and on YouTube. But for us, it's just the two of us, right? Which is fun. Good to have you. I'm happy to have a conversation with you again. Yeah, exactly. Wonderful. And it's always fun to see when talking to people on the other side, right? You're [00:08:00] in a t shirt and I'm in like my poncho. It's quite warm here tonight. Yeah. Good tell. Wonderful. So we, we decided to talk about pivoting for good because you just hosted a summit around pivoting where you were so kind to invite me and share my story of the pivot to humane marketing away from my LinkedIn consulting business and then to gentle marketing and then to humane marketing. And so as I was kind of reading through the other stories of Pivoters I was thinking, Hey, that actually makes a really good subject for a conversation on the podcast. And, you know, you make the perfect guest for it. So you are we go way back. Yeah, we go way back. We have had prior exchanges. Mainly related to being introverts and, and being [00:09:00] in business and, and marketing and all of that. So it's good to catch up with you. So let's go to that summit and maybe kind of lens of pivoting for good. What stands out to you now that the summit is over, do you feel like there was a bit of a theme related to. Pivoting for good and maybe I can define to listeners. What I mean by that. Yeah, it's kind of like coming from the traditional business model of like, just making money, paying the bills individualistic to a more. Out there a model, meaning like, it's not just me for my business, but I'm actually wanting to contribute to change. So that's what I think for this podcast we define as pivoting for good. So, did you notice kind of a theme in your summit from people's stories? It was definitely, I [00:10:00] think, a theme of pivoting for good. And there's some people like yourself who haven't really defined how they're going to, how they want to make the world a better place. You know, that sort of idea of improving things for the communities they're in. So I think there are a couple of people like that, like Louise, who's from Leap32 Marketing, very much wants to work with companies who have a purpose led. I think she's probably one of the most obvious ones. I think the other thing that really stood out for me is people pivoting, pivoting to pivot businesses that really reflected their values and so trying to show that their values coming through in their work and hopefully then influencing the world that they're sort of operating in to try and make, to try and ensure their values are actually being. Reflected in those communities that they're working with, I guess is how I would [00:11:00] put it. So not always having a really clearly defined, this is how I help my community. But very, almost all of them had a very clear, I want my values to be reflected in my work. And so through values, hopefully I can make the place, you know, just a little bit better than what, what it was like when I, you know, when they started in business. Yeah, that's interesting because that's kind of the, I did a video recently on the individual in the community, because that's kind of if you look at astrology, that's kind of the theme of the time of Aquarius where it's very, Much individualistic and saying, I want to do what I want to do and my values and all of that. Then it's also a time of, well, how do I, given how, who I am fit into the community. And it feels like. Maybe that's the first step you know, really expressing our values and not just being kind of defined, but [00:12:00] by our clients, because let's say 10 years ago, it was all about, you know, adapting to the clients, right? The client was the king and all that. And now it's like, well, what if, if I start with myself first and put my values first? So. It seems like there's a journey of saying, okay, I want to do a business how I want to do it. And then the next step will be like, well, how does that contribute to community at large to humanity at large? Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing that came through was sort of, it still ties into that individualistic idea, but then taking it further. is there are people who, you know, like myself, where I want to see introverts do well, but there are also quite a few people who took part who want to help other HSP people thrive. So very much seeing community in that sort of sense, that they want people in that particular [00:13:00] community of HSP to thrive. Or for me, you know, I've said introverts, so there's also that It's sort of individualistic because it's who you are and wanting others who are like you to thrive. But in a way also building community in those similar people, right? Yes. Yeah. And groups that don't do well or haven't, haven't been valued perhaps as much as society. Yeah. I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of neurodivergent people as well, that's kind of, you know, a new thing in the business world that there is movements of neurodivergent people. And so I think that's another, yeah, you're right. It's kind of like, okay, we finally can say how we're wired and who we are and let's find. Common who are, who are just like us and create communities with those people. Yeah. You're very right. Yeah. And I [00:14:00] think, I think helping them as well to be seen and valued by society. So thinking about those HSP people often have been HSP people, highly sensitive people have often been seen as too sensitive. And now perhaps we're seeing, hopefully starting to see their sensitivity as. Something that really adds to the world that we're in and so how do we help them get, you know, get themselves out into the world and share their, their sensitivity better. I think it's. It's an interesting, interesting idea of community. And I really believe that helps in this paradigm shift that kind of goes from a very, very masculine energy to a more feminine energy and HSPs kind of have this gift to bring out the feminine energy, right? So it belongs to that shift as well. Yeah. Maybe can you pick like one or two stories [00:15:00] that really. Stood out to you and that you would love to share here. I think probably two. So one of the ones I thought was really interesting is Nadia Finas, who went from being a business coach and she now helps people who are shy like herself and have a really, you know, she has a, quite a, her voice is quite high pitched, I guess you'd say, and I think, you know, she's in the past, she's really struggled with her voice and she struggled with shyness. And so I think that's been really interesting. It's a really interesting story for me of moving away from the online business world on business coaching, which I think she was getting very jaded about and then coming around this idea where she can help shy people instead and bringing a lot of her. You know, I can see with the work that she does online that she brings a lot of those skills that she got as a business coach [00:16:00] to then helping get her voice out about how shy people can be supported in the workplace. So I really liked her story, particularly I think you often see it going the other way of people moving from say a life coach to a business coach. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think, yeah, that scene is a much more natural path going perhaps sort of in the other direction, I think was really interesting. Yeah. And then I really like Ruth Pound White's story that, you know, she's actually, she had a really successful copywriting business. And she gave that away to be a business coach and a soulful, you know, helping people with their, their sales and doing it in a soulful way. And I think that, again, is really interesting, I think, but for me, both of them, that whole giving up something that's earning you money, doing well, that society probably sees and values you doing, [00:17:00] moving into, you know, completely giving that up and doing something new. I think they're the two that. I think for me, it's the courage of giving up something successful to start again is really powerful. Yeah, yeah, it makes me laugh because I remember when I first put out the Marketing Like We're Human book and then was on these typical marketing podcasts and they would always ask me about Conversion rates. And, you know, does this actually work? Do we have proof that humane marketing works? And kind of my counter question is, was always like, well, the question is more like, does the traditional marketing still work for you? Can you still sleep at night? Right. Doing the things you're doing now. And so it's like, well, if you're, if it still works for you, then yeah. Why give it up? Right. But if you just know deep inside, well, this is actually not working for me anymore, then, then you need the courage to leave it behind and, and pivot to [00:18:00] something else. Yeah. I think that's really the thing about a pivot. Like, okay. Sometimes it might be a forced pivot. Which kind of was, you know, the story for me with the trademark issue moving away from gentle marketing. Okay. That was a forced pivot. I'm glad it happened now looking back. But then, yeah. So, so what would you say? Are, are, are there different reasons we just mentioned one or two, the forced one, and then the one where it's kind of like, well, something's not working for me. Is there another reason that you noticed why people are moving away from or pivoting to something else? Louise, who I mentioned before from Leap 32, I think she was probably, I think she's probably the only person in the whole project who pivoted because she thought there was more. [00:19:00] So I thought that was, hers was really interesting in that regard, in that it wasn't that she was particularly unhappy with in the role she was in, but she could see that there was more. And I think that's probably the other. The other reason is that they, you can see there are possibilities to get more out of your life and to get more out of your business. Yeah. And hopefully, and in her case, to give back more to community than what she was doing in her old job. Yeah. I think a lot of the others are forced. I mean, I would even say in some ways, You know, both of our pivots were forced in terms of feeling so uncomfortable with what we were doing. It was also almost our you know, when you stop doing your traditional marketing and I stopped doing Facebook ads, it was very much, you're almost forced because it doesn't feel right. Yeah. Because of ethical reasons, right? Yeah. Whereas some people are forced because, you know, [00:20:00] Celia, who shared her story, I mean, she probably could have kept going, but she had a co working space and obviously COVID hit and there was no co working. So it gave her an opportunity to really reassess what she was doing. So, you know, different types of force, I think. Mm hmm. Yeah. You mentioned about the, is there more this question I think for me in the LinkedIn, when I transitioned out of the LinkedIn consulting, I think that's what, what it was for me, like, is this all I'm ever going to do is, is it more? So it wasn't like more in terms of, can I make more money somewhere else? Yeah. It's like. In my life, is this my role or is there something else, something deeper? And I guess that's also what I'm hinting at towards, you know, the pivoting for good. I think a lot of people feel this calling right now for more. How can I [00:21:00] contribute to this shift right now? With my business, and isn't there a pivot that I should be making right now? So, yeah, I, I'd agree that it's probably those three is like, is there more? Another one is a forced pivot and, and the third one is more like, well, what can I let go of in something else? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that, that really resonates in terms of what I just said, you know, is there more? So. It's not usually money did it was that a common theme as well that most of the people didn't pivot because. You know, it's like, well, I want to make even more money. And that's the reason for the pivot. I guess the question is like, would people still measure success with just money or were people measuring success in another way? No, I don't think [00:22:00] anyone measured success through money or maybe one. Maybe Amber McHugh did. And hers was a forced pivot. So she had, she had a photography, Boudoir photography company, and again, COVID shut them down. And so they used that first year of the COVID to actually decide to really, really invest in their company and grow it significantly. After cover, but I think she was probably the only person who even, you know, thought, you know, had a money as a measure of her success for everyone else. It was much more about giving back to community or doing work that was more interesting to them. So that's all that individualistic side, but, you know, what. What work feels good to them to do. Right. And yeah, I think that would probably be the main two, actually, is that doing work [00:23:00] they enjoy and being able to give back were the two main measures of success that got mentioned in the project. Yeah. Kind of does in their piece as well. Right. It's just being happy in your, in your work rather than feeling like you're doing something that is not aligned. That's kind of the, yeah, the sense I got from most of the stories as well. And I think working with people who they were aligned with was another one. So having clients that are in alignment. Yeah, so I mean, I guess similar to you, finding people who do marketing, there's a few other people in the project that do marketing, and it was very much about finding ways of doing it ethically and working with people who want to do marketing in a way that Feels good, you know, isn't that that more aggressive masculine marketing that we see so often. So that definitely came through quite a [00:24:00] few people. Yeah. Another topic that comes to mind is because it's, it's 1 of my kind of like. Yeah, it's really important to me is the collaboration instead of competition. So, yeah, did you feel like there was also a bit of a pivot towards more, let's see how we can collaborate? As entrepreneurs, let's see how I can tap into, because most of these business owners, entrepreneurs already had existing experience. So was that a priority for people to pivot into kind of like, yeah, more community building or more collaboration with others? What, what did you see? No, I don't, I didn't actually see much of that, which was really interesting for me because. You know, over the past year as I've [00:25:00] been, you know, sort of wending my way through my own messy pivot, I think community and collaboration has really come up as a theme for me. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why I organized the Pivot Project, that I really, I like the, I love the idea of sharing a range of voices because I think we gain so much from hearing how different people are doing things and their thoughts on them, that it can help us to shape our own ideas. Cheers. Cheers. Around how we want to do our businesses, how we want to interact with the world, how we want to make it bigger and bigger and better, you know, bigger, not necessarily in a money sense, but bigger in terms of maybe bigger hearted but I don't it's really interesting. I don't think community came through. In the actual stories, you know, I certainly saw it as part of the pivot project that people really enjoyed that they, you know, I've had messages from people who took part that [00:26:00] one of the things that they've really got out of that is they've met some really fantastic new people who, you know, who that they were in the project with, and I, you know, that's been really exciting for me. So, Yeah. Yeah. Not so much in their own stories, but definitely as part of being in the project. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I, I know that, I only know that Andy Mort who was also featured, he has his own community and, and it's important to him and I do, I don't know if anybody else, yeah. Has that or it's important to them, but, but I'm curious about your own pivot. So, so tell us more about, you know, what's been going on for you, for you over the last year or so. I think for me, I've done a number of different things. I started off doing sort of Facebook ads and then [00:27:00] some tech VA work. And now really settling on, well, I wouldn't say settled. So the business strategy is definitely uses the best, it's the best use of my skills. I think bringing together my accounting, my planning skills, my problem solving. And then for me, I think over the past year, the real pivot has been around who I help. And I think for me, part of that has been, you know, I say I help introverts, but I've been realizing over the past year that that is. That's too big a group and that there are some other important things that fit into that group for me a big one. And probably because I've been spending too much time reading your stuff is ethical marketing. And that, you know, it's really important to me that the introverts I work with share that ethical marketing, humane marketing perspective. I don't want to work with people [00:28:00] who are only there for the money. And we all need money. I think money is wonderful, but there's something more to what they want to get from their business is part of that. And then certainly overthinking, I think, is another bit that I've struggled with. And I think that's where I also bring a set of skills into helping people who overthink with planning. But definitely the big one has been that ethical because I've seen, I've seen people who are introverts. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're ethical. I think it's really easy to, to label yourself. So I label myself as an introvert, and then they are, because I, I, you know, I want ethical marketing that all introverts are going to be into ethical marketing as well, which of course is completely not true. And I think it's getting that better sense of who I want to work with. And support that's been this really that last year, the pivot of the last year has been really trying to work out who that person is or who [00:29:00] those people are that I want to work with and support. Yeah, it's so interesting. I'm just thinking back to, yeah, my first podcast that was also, you know, interviewing introverts. And I think that's where you and I met for the first time. And it's true back then that was like a big thing. Oh my God, you're saying out loud that you're an introvert, right? And we thought, okay, all introverts think alike, and then, you know, obviously we noticed, oh, that's not true at all. And it really kind of confirms this, this idea that I say that to make your worldview, your niche, rather than just have a niche of introverts. Well, your worldview is, let's do things ethically. And then that. Becomes the niche within the introverts, right? So it's every introvert, but just the ones that align with your worldview. And I think it's an evolution, right? It's [00:30:00] just like, this is, this is becoming more and more important. And so it's, it's interesting to hear. And I noticed the same thing for me. I'm like, well, yeah, it used to be introverts. Definitely not true anymore, because I know a lot of introverts where I'm like. No, it's not, no, no resonance. And the reason is because we don't have the same worldview. It's really, I think for me, it's still introverts because I'm probably ambiverts. I think people who are really extroverted, I don't do as well with, you know, like my work style doesn't work as well with them. Sometimes I would never work with an extrovert, but yeah, I think my, my work, how I work. It's what attracts introverts, but it's the worldview that then drives the other bitch. So it's sort of bringing the, the, how I work with the, how I think together to make it a much more [00:31:00] aligned business for me. Right. I started to call my ideal clients, deep thinkers, because I feel like It doesn't matter whether they're introverted or extroverted, that's just how they recharge their battery. But if, if they are deep thinkers, thinking about things deeply, thinking about, you know, our current challenges. So not just thinking about themselves. That's to me is kind of the definition and, and oftentimes they are introverts, but not always. So, yeah, it's just, I've been thinking for me, the word I want to bring into my work. is that I really love is thoughtful because I really like the duality of the word that it's got that deep thinker part in it that they're thoughtful about their business and intentional. And I also really like the idea of thoughtful in terms of kindness and thinking about clients. So that's sort of, I think where I'm heading. Yeah. And I think that combines that. Can be an extrovert and be a deep [00:32:00] thinker. So, you know, probably does, I would work with extroverts who fit into that category, but then also that I do want to see a kinder world. And that's where the other part of that word comes from. I like that. Yeah. Very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting how, how much power and resonance words have. Right. And obviously that's, that's a big thing in marketing and communication. Let's kind of wrap up and talk a little bit about, well, you know, if somebody is listening and they're like, Oh my God. Yeah. That's exactly what has been happening over the last year or so. Where would you say, where do you start? Where did you start? Because again, it can take a lot of courage to, you know, move into another direction or let something go that has been working well, or maybe it hasn't been working well, but it's the only thing you have. So [00:33:00] yeah. What were your first steps? And then a new direction. I think for me, I was, and I was the only one who talked about this on the project that for me, I just, I got so out of alignment with my business that I actually went back, went back to work and got a job. And so that I was financially secure. And for me, that's one of the most, I think that's one of the really important things in making a, I don't want to call it a courageous pivot, but in making a pivot that perhaps doesn't feel as accepted by family or whoever it is. You need to have that money piece. Yeah, sorted to be creative, like if you can't pay your bills, I think it's really difficult. You know, to tap, to be able to take that step, you know, if you're worried about money, then you're going to make unaligned decisions in the name of money. And I still do that today. I think I still take on clients that I, [00:34:00] I shouldn't because I think money still feeds into that. I'm getting better at saying no to people, but it's, yeah, so definitely for me it was money. And then really, I think my best advice is just to start journaling about what you wanted to actually look like. That it's amazing what happens when you start to get things down on paper, and then start to look for other people in that world. So, you know, for me, it was starting to find people like you, like Ruth Poundwhite, other people who are doing, you know, who have that world, similar worldview to I do, that I do, and looking at how they do their business and what they're sharing about their thoughts on how, how you can do business in a way that feels much better for you. And hopefully it's much better for your community. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up the money piece. I think that is, I think it's actually a very courageous pivot because there is so much stigma around, you know, business owners going back to work. And I think that is the, [00:35:00] yeah, the best. I mean, most courageous thing you can do because you're right, you can't, you can't even think if you don't have that financial safety. So, so don't start planning in that scarcity mode because it's not, it's not going to work. So yeah, I've actually seen quite, I've seen quite a few bigger business names sharing that they've gone and taken jobs. This. So either they've, you know, they've become a fractional marketing officer for someone that that kind of role and I really, I really like that they're sharing that and hopefully taking what I hadn't seen that, but that's really, yeah, that's really nice to hear because it's true that and I think especially, you know, the big businesses, they, I think there has been a huge kind of shift in terms of, you know, You know, what works and what doesn't work and it's especially the big businesses with also with big [00:36:00] expenses, right? Well, things are not working anymore. Like they used to before the pandemic. So yeah, so I'm really hoping that message gets out that actually. It's okay to take a job if that's what you need to do. Yeah. Yeah, in this season. And there'll be another season where you come up with a fabulous business that you love rather than trying to, trying to make something that doesn't support you succeed. I think that's, I think you might as well have a job in that case. If you're doing a business that doesn't light you up, then you might as well have a job. It's probably a lot easier. You can shut off at the, you know, the end of the day, hopefully. Yeah. It's the same thing that people who are wanting to start their first business. I always say, you know, build it while you still are on the job. So you have that financial security. Because otherwise it just, yeah, it really is scary. So, [00:37:00] and I think at the end of the marketing, like we're human book, I also mentioned that in terms of shifting to a different way of marketing. Because what happened for me, that was like a big drop, right? When you shift from the, the kind of the pushy marketing stuff and the pushy launches and all of that into a more humane approach to marketing. And right now I'm, you know, onboarding for the Marketing Like We're Human program, and I'm having conversations with people, right? So yeah, it takes a lot more time. And so there, there's going to be fewer people. So obviously there's a shift also in, in the income and you need to, you need to adjust for that. I mean, you can't just do it overnight. So, so kind of like. Yeah, maybe still keep doing what works well because of the money safety and then slowly shift out of it as you grow the other side. Yeah, and you can definitely, I think, you know, [00:38:00] with marketing, there's always an option to even just change it slightly. So you start to, you know, if you get rid of the particularly masculine element of your marketing, that particular aggressive. You can still do reasonably well while you're moving it to become more how you want it to be. Exactly, yeah, it's still a small shift, yeah. Yeah, but everything doesn't have to be a big, right, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm only doing this. There's definitely a gradual move that you can take if that's what's going to make you, going to be able to support you financially as you make the shift. Yeah, so good. Any, any other, I think the question is in terms of the future, where do you see the future of business, humane business? Do you feel like there is going to be more and more a move [00:39:00] towards this more aligned and, and ethical business? Do you see that in Australia, for example? I think I was but I think with the change in economic condition conditions that it's meant that people have right people feel less like it's a you said before it's a whole scarcity so because people are struggling to find clients. Your businesses are struggling. Things feel like they're scarce. That means that you, I think you tend to flip back into perhaps not so ethical marketing that has worked for you in the past. That, yeah, I think, I think the economic conditions might slow the movement down a little bit. That's for sure. Unfortunately, people will be less, less willing to take risks. Which, you know, you can completely understand. Yeah. Yeah. And it's [00:40:00] unfortunately always like that when things are back, well, people are scared and we, we go back to the things that work and that create immediate income. Right. Yeah. I think my hope is though that it will be. You know, we've taken two steps forward and we're only going one back. So, you know, we're always moving forward, even if it's at a much slower pace and perhaps we would ideally like, but it's still a move, you know, it's still better than it was. Yeah. Yeah. It's baby steps. Like you said. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's leave it on that positive tone. Thanks so much for, for sharing your insights. Caroline, that's, this has been delightful. I always ask one question and that is, what are you grateful for today and this week? At the moment I'm just really, so my two dogs have been quite sick, so I'm just very grateful that they're healthy this week and I'm enjoying their [00:41:00] company and then I can hear them making crying noises in the background as we talk because they're showing the back room and they want to come out. Yeah. I'll let you go back to them. I'm glad you, you saying that because I, I remember like, even like weeks back when we exchanged emails, you were saying that they were sick, so they must have been sick for a while now. Yeah. I mean, I've got terminal illnesses, but we hit a good, hit a good patch this week. So you have to take those wins. Hmm. Yeah. Wonderful to hang out. Thanks so much for being on the show today. Thanks for having me, Sarah. Caroline outro: Thanks so much for listening. I hope you got great value out of this episode, especially if you're considering your own pivot. You can find out more about Caroline and her work at quietlyextraordinary. com and Caroline has actually collated all the stories into an ebook, which you can now download at [00:42:00] quietlyextraordinary. com forward slash the dash. Pivot dash narratives. So go there and get inspired by all these pivot stories. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? Find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. We'd love to have you there. you're actually in the midst of your own pivot. Have a look at the Marketing Like We're Human program and see whether that might help you right now. Humane dot marketing forward slash program. You find the show notes of this episode at Humane dot marketing forward slash HM184. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a [00:43:00] generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon!
43:39 3/8/24
Humane Pitching with Rachel Allen
In today’s episode, we’re diving into the world of pitching, but not as you know it. Forget the dread and discomfort often associated with pitching; with our guest, Rachel Allen, we’re exploring how to turn it into a process of genuine connection and growth. You’ll discover why pitching feels challenging, how to embrace it authentically, and strategies tailored for introverted solopreneurs. We’re also covering practical tips on tracking your pitching efforts in a simple, effective way. If you’ve ever wondered how to pitch in a way that feels true to you and builds lasting relationships, this is the conversation for you. Join us as we learn to navigate the balance between effective pitching and maintaining our authenticity, all while growing our businesses in a humane way. In this episode, Rachel shares: Why we hate pitching and how to change that How to pitch authentically That pitching is actually about creating relationships Pitching strategies for introverts How and what to track when pitching, the simple way and much more…   --   Ep 183 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Rachel. Good to see you, and welcome to the humane marketing podcast. It's a delight to have you here. Rachel: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I know we've wanted to talk about this for, what, over a year, I think. Um, so I'm excited that we're finally able to to make our schedules match. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. We've talked about different versions of this. And so, uh, in the end, we Decided to, um, talk about pitching, which I think is so relevant. And and in in a way, I think maybe it's because I kept Seeing was it you or someone else? You know, all kinds of people always post about the pitches that they get on LinkedIn and and how wrong they are and and all of that. So I'm like, yeah. That's a that's a good topic because We wanted to talk about pitching, but not just about how it's bad, but how you can actually do it in a way that [00:01:00] feels Ethically good and humane. So I think the the title of the podcast, I called it Humane Pitching. Ching. So let's dive into that and and how that would look like. Because I do think it's a it's a relevant business It's, um, tactic to understand, uh, how to work it. And and and so you specialize in that because you're really good with words. And and so you I approached you to come on to the come come on to the podcast, but then also come to the community and and, uh, do a collab workshop on the topic of humane pitching. So so why don't we start with kind of your experience with Pitching, but also with receiving pitches and how that changed, maybe how you approach them and how you teach them. Rachel: Yeah. Oh, I love that. So my experience with pitching is actually a little bit of a sandwich. Um, I before I [00:02:00] did Uh, online marketing. I was a journalist. And so my initial experience with pitching was actually writing and receiving press releases And, um, understanding how to pitch articles in that kind of environment. I never really thought I would use that again until I started doing online marketing and started getting all of these really Bad pitches where I was it would be people who clearly had, you know, even gotten the basics wrong. Like, they'd misspelled my name, or, um, Um, you could tell that they just copy pasted the same thing to a thousand people. Or my favorites would be the ones who, um, they would try to sell me something like drop shipping. And I'm like, I'm a marketer. What am I gonna drop ship? Like, I don't have merchandise. That's nice. So I would see these and be like, That's dumb. I should do something about it. And then, uh, last year, I finally was like, okay. It's time. Because I kept I saw this big wave of ones coming up again because of our the shifts that we're having in our, uh, demographic online. And so I was like, okay. I'm [00:03:00] gonna just Fix this once and for all and teach a podcast teach a teach a workshop called pitching for people who hate pitching. And, um, in preparation for that, I worked out a methodology for myself where I pitch 10 ish or so podcasts a week. It takes me about 30 minutes a day, the if that much. And most of all, it's just it feels like human to human conversations. Nobody walks out of this interaction feeling bad, Which was my priority for creating it. Sarah: Yeah. That's great. And I think pitching for podcasts is a great example. Right? That's As a podcast host, I probably receive sometimes, like, once 1 per day and and other, You know, other weeks is, like, at 2 per week. And and there's the occasional 1, like, once in a blue moon that I'm like, okay. Yeah. This feels authentic. But most of them, um, just yeah. Not even not even replying anymore, I have to [00:04:00] admit. I'm like, I just don't have the energy to reply or or teach them something. Um, actually, it's funny because I'm I'm gonna grab my phone. Just before We got on the on the call. I received 1. And that's kind of the new the new way, I think, of doing it, Uh, where they pretend that they're, like, your biggest fan, and they'll pick 1 episode that they really loved apparently, and they're They shared it with their team. So he's like, yeah. We shared it with it with my team. And then it's like, I'm wondering if you'd be open to, uh, being introduced to someone in I know in the SaaS space. I'm like, SaaS space. Like, I I okay. I have nothing against technology and, you know, All that, but had it has nothing to do with the other episodes that I'm I'm usually posting. So, clearly, that kind of, like, warming up, Bo, I know you so well. I'm your biggest fan. It just feels so fake. Right? And and [00:05:00] I have to admit that, like, for a mini Split of a second, I'm like, oh, that's nice because your ego goes it's like, oh, yeah. That that feels good. But then you're like, Wait a minute. No. This is not real. Right? And and so there it feels like there's these waves of Kind of pitching advice that goes out. Uh, I don't know who teaches them anymore. Like, it used to be the Neil Patel's, and Hopefully, they have evolved a little bit. So now it's other people who are teaching these strategies where it's just kinda like you can tell, oh, This is you know, this person has attended this program, and then it's all Mhmm. Feels the same. So I'm really curious what You are teaching how that is different, and you kind of hinted at is the relationship building. So tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah. Well, Rachel: like you said, the the main core focus when I teach this workshop, I tell people, here here's the way you [00:06:00] make this work for you. Your metric of success is not how many yeses you get. It's how many questions you ask. And so we immediately take the, like, the need for the other person to do something off the table. The And this is only on you. Are you going to get more guesses the more you do this? Of course, you will. But I like doing I like teaching it this way because it takes the pressure off of Every ask should have to be, like, so perfect because it has to be a yes. And it also takes the pressure off the other person because whatever they do, you've already won. You filled out another line on your spreadsheet. You've done a good job. So it makes it just psychologically easier on everybody involved. And then the way that we actually do this outreach Is we, um, reach out to people that are screened. So I teach you how to prescreen for people that are actually a good fit. I have an absolute no for this, like, Carpet bombing approach where you're just like, let me invite all my Facebook friends. You know? That's terrible. Nobody likes that. Right. And, uh, we have a structure Where we actually, um, we have the same pitching [00:07:00] templates that you sort of start from every time. So you don't have to, like, go through the blank page every single time. But you tweak it specifically for every single person that you reach out to. And, um, it includes, you know, like you said, some personal not like Creepy personal information, but it shows that you've actually, like, looked at their stuff. And, um, it puts the focus on what you can bring to them. So it's not reaching out to somebody and saying, hey. Give me something. It's saying, hey. I have something to offer. Do you think that might be a fit for us? Let's talk about that. Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, like, in in the marketing, like, we're human program, 1 1 of the bonuses is a podcast, Uh, 1 sheeter as a bonus. So so, um, I feel like when you come Paired. So the people who come to me with a pitch where I feel like, oh, they've they've actually listened to the or 1 specific episode. And then they propose something that is related [00:08:00] to that episode, and they give me bullet points Of what they could be speaking about, that to me is an easy yes. You know? Obviously, yes. I'm gonna go look at their website and see if it's a good fit, But it makes it easy for me as the host to Mhmm. To say yes to it rather than, like, this guy, would you be open to Like, no. Like, that is too much work for me to then figure out, well, who's he gonna suggest? Uh, all this research that I have to do, I'm like, no. Thank you. So, um, what what you're saying basically is, yes, come prepared. And so, obviously, if you have a 1 1, um, 1 sheeter for for for you as the as the guest or or I think even better, and and that's really what stands out, is is the Bullet points. Like, here's what I could be talking about. Right? That makes it really easy. So in terms of podcasting, That makes a lot of [00:09:00] sense because you you actually do come and offer something. Right? You offer your expertise to be a guest on the podcast. Let's talk about pitching in other, um, topics. Like, if I'm gonna come and pitch myself as as a provider of my services. How would you do it there? It becomes a bit more tricky. Right? Rachel: Yeah. So it's you can use the same structure. It's just a little bit different in terms of the information that you put into it. So I love the way you were you were framing this. It's like, basically, every pitch is is generosity. It's a gift. It's like, what can I give to you to start up this relationship? And it's the exact same thing with your services. So what I recommend people do is don't just reach out and say, like, hey. I'm a copywriter. Do you have work? No. Leave me alone. Like, of course not. But if you say, hey. I've been following your site. Like, I think your social media is amazing. I have noticed this 1 thing, And I'm curious if you do it, like, do you have a reason for it? [00:10:00] If not, like, here's what I might suggest, and I'm very careful to teach people. Like, you don't wanna, Like, bash on them. It's not like, wow. You could be so great if only your social media wasn't garbage. Let me fix that. It's terrible. No. Don't do that. Instead, it's like, hey. I think it became really cool if you tried this idea and just tell them. Like, let them tell them the strategy. Let them go try it if they want. And you say, If you wanna talk about that, I'm happy to talk about it. I love to help out. That's something that I do. And then you give a couple of little bullet points of, like, here's what that could look like. And, again, not it's not like fresh and read. It's not pushy. It's just like, hey. Here's what I do. Here's what that could look like. Do you wanna talk about that? And that's that. It's not like buy my thing or watch your business go up in flames. No 1 likes those Sarah: things. Yeah. Exactly. The the kind of negative, You know, voice and and and then I'm like, oh, but I have the solution, and let me let me help you. It's like, well, thank you very much, but no. Rachel: That's so condescending too. Right? Because you go [00:11:00] in assuming that they don't know what they're doing wrong or if they don't have a reason for doing it differently than what you might recommend. So it's to this, like, just with this commitment to see the other person as just as human as you are and assuming that they know they probably do know what they're doing. And you can come to the table as equals and maybe find a way forward that's better or different or get some different results. But it's not about you coming in and fixing somebody's problem because, Like, what's the first thing anybody does? Even if you know you're doing something wrong and if somebody comes up and they're like, I can help you. You're like, leave me alone. I'm Sarah: fine. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. No. It it's very human to be then self defensive and go, well, yeah, to who asked you for advice? Right? So so it really needs to be wrapped in this generosity, um, kind of package where it's like Yeah. Where where it doesn't feel like they they just wanna teach me something, um, and then charge me for it, but really, like, yeah. Hey. Let's Let's have a [00:12:00] look at how how this could help you and and then not in a way where probably also it means, like, you need to be okay to not charge for Yeah. This first interaction. Right? It really should be generous and therefore free. Rachel: Mhmm. And I think that's something that I I encourage people to think about when they're in the workshop. I'm like, you need to think about your capacity for this as well. Yeah. So I encourage people to always lead with generosity, to think of it as a relationship building exercise that happens to have the side effect of you get more work And you get, you know, different work and you get more of what you want. But the main focus always has to be on the person and the relationship. And it sounds counterintuitive, especially in the way that pitching is normally taught, which is, you know, hey, b, c, always be closing. Right. Yeah. But we're humans. You know? We're not doing multinational corporation deals. We're talking to people, usually 1 on 1 or 1 to a small team. It's so much more effective to have a [00:13:00] relationship with someone and be open to where that might lead because the kind of cool thing is If you come in with a preconceived idea of how your relationship is gonna end up, that may actually be, like, way smaller than what it could become. I've definitely had interactions with people where I was like, oh, I think maybe they'll end up becoming, like, a monthly blog client. And then it's like, just kidding. We're gonna do fractional CMO work. And if I had come in saying, like, I'm gonna do your blogs, k, then I would have never thought to expand this much more larger and rewarding work. Sarah: Right. Another thing you just brought up is this idea of relationship. Right? And what came up for me is, like, well, also Don't necessarily see this 1 on 1 relationship as kind of a 1 way road. And and, like, this is Gotta have to turn into a client. It could just stay at the relationship level and then bring clients through referral, for example. Right? Because [00:14:00] you have created something beautiful. You've given your work for free. The person doesn't need You right now or maybe they don't have the budget. But having created this awe moment then leads this person to refer you to Well, her friends. Right? And so it's like, if you go in and it's just like, oh, it needs to be a yes from this person, Then you're basically closing on all your other avenues, uh, as well. Rachel: Mhmm. Yeah. I think I'm so glad that you articulated that. I think Curiosity is such a big part of this as well. Just like, I don't know what's gonna happen when we sit down and talk. You know, we're people. Humans are inherently unpredictable. Who knows? But let's find out. Yeah. Sarah: Well, I happen to know that you are also an introvert. And so it feels like, uh, You know, that that pitching, I think, just a word pitching introverts probably go, oh, no. Thank you. Right? So how can This how can we [00:15:00] make this even better for introverts? Like, that it doesn't feel So dreadful. Um, what do you Rachel: suggest? So when I think, you know, Love the word pitching. I think of being at 1 of those horrible networking events where you have to go around and shake everybody's hand and be like, oh, we have not, you know, very high energy. Sounds terrible. That's exhausting. I hate those. I don't do them. So what I recommend instead with this, um, is, First of all, to just remove attachment to the outcome, which I know we've talked about. But I I think as an introvert, that makes it easier for me because then it's not like, Oh, I have to put my extrovert face on. It's more like, no. I'm here. This is how I talk. This is who I am. Let's see what happens. Another thing I remind people always is that you don't have to respond at the very second somebody responds to you. These conversations take a long time. You know, they're time it takes time to build. So I see people get very anxious about their response time when they send out is like, oh, but if they email me that grand [00:16:00] way, I have to email them back or else we're gonna lose it. And no. You know, don't if you don't want to. It's your business. No one's making you do anything. And another element of this is I always encourage people to write the way that they talk. A lot of times, Uh, as an introvert, it can be exhausting if I have to go and pretend to be more high energy or more whatever than I am. But if I just write an email that sounds exactly like me, it doesn't have to sound sales y. It doesn't have to do anything except say, hey. This is who I am. Do you want to talk? That's a lot lower of a bar than having to feel like I'm doing the email equivalent of, like, getting my hair done and putting on a full face of makeup out of Fancy clothes and then going to talk to people. So, um, oh, and the final thing is you don't have to do this all the time. Like, I do it, um, I do it usually daily because that's just easy for me, but there's also been times in my business where I've pitched very intensively for, like, 6 weeks and then ignored it for the rest of the year. So you can also gear it to [00:17:00] your own cycles of higher energy and when you have more resources to to be sort of more outward facing. Sarah: Yeah. I love that. Um, and I and I'll admit, I'm definitely not as regular as as you are. Um, I think I haven't Hitched any podcast in, like, probably more than a year. But I do know when the the third book comes out sometime down the road. That's what I'll do. Right? And then I get very focused, and I can you know, I I get into this pitching mode. And, yeah, it feels good. It feels like, okay. I'm doing something very focused here. And it reminds me of a spreadsheet that that I then use. So so I guess kind of the the wrapping up question is, like, well, Do you, yeah, do you suggest any kind of tracking method? How do you know whom you've already pitched? Worst Case is probably when you pitch [00:18:00] someone this the second time, and they're like, hey. You just sent me this 6 months ago. So what what kind of, uh, yeah, tools do you you recommend people use, if any? Rachel: Yeah. I absolutely recommend a tracker. So we get to that's about, like, 2 thirds of the way through the workshop, and I'm like, okay. Everybody just gonna get real sad for a minute because we're having to talk about metrics. Yeah. But Actually, it can be fun. It can be nice. I've, uh, I created a spreadsheet tracker that I share with everybody. I also have a Notion 1 that I use just I keep all my business stuff in Notion that I also share the template. And, um, what I always tell everyone is that, like, yes. I know we don't like Spreadsheets, but this 1 is colored. It has pretty colors everywhere. It's nice. It's a friendly spreadsheet. I love that. Um, we track as much information as we need 2, but no more. Because I also see people that either don't wanna track anything at all, and they're like, I'll just I'll just let the the ether of the Internet tell me what to do. Or They go the other 1. They're like, well, if I don't know their Social Security number, have I even kept [00:19:00] track? And I'm like, no. You need their name. You need the last time they talk you talk to them, And you need, um, like, whether they're a yes or a no in their website. That's it. That's all you need. And so as long as you can keep up with those 4 things, like, that's all you need for the tracking. Sarah: Right. Yeah. And and so maybe to come full circle, what you said at the beginning of the the episode is, like, It doesn't matter whether it's a yes or no. What matters is that you reached out. Right? And so we're not really Tracking so much the yeses, but more we're more tracking that we've done it. Is is that Rachel: correct? Yeah. So you track how you've done it. And then I always I also recommend people to take, after about 3 months, to, uh, track how you feel about it. Like, does this feel good to you? Are you getting what you want out of this? If so, fantastic. Keep doing it. If not, then that's a really good sign that you can make a change Because there's no 1 right or wrong way to do this. There's just the way that you make conversation and the way that [00:20:00] you reach out to people. So I always encourage people to Track those qualitative metrics over time as well. Sarah: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense to feel into it because if it if it feels exhausting Sting and you're having all these 1 on 1 conversations. And at the same time, you need to give it some time. Right? Yeah. So it's like, well, just by doing it 3 weeks is not gonna make your business explode. So it's kinda like use Common sense and and and maybe, yeah, do less of it, but keep consistency. So just, Yeah. Adapt. Yeah. And readjust. Yeah. Exactly. Wonderful. Well, tell us a A little bit about your structure of the workshop that you're gonna be doing for us on March sixth. Oh, I'm so excited. Rachel: So we will come in, and we'll start by talking about, uh, why everyone hates pitching. And, um, I'll go through the 3 things that, Uh, not to do and 3 things to do. So we'll keep it really simple. [00:21:00] Um, and then we will go into strategy for pitching. So, uh, how to how to create a strategy that actually makes sense for you and gets you what you want in your business, and that's where the beautiful little spreadsheet comes in because, of course, we have to track our metrics. Uh, we will then go into creating your, uh, pitching template. And so this is kind of a it's a foundational letter That you write. And then you're gonna modify that slightly for each different person or podcast that you pitch to, but the general structure is always the same. So we'll talk through that, And then we'll wrap up with some, uh, information about vetting, you know, how to find where to find people, um, and what to do when you've actually got them. And, uh, I believe I'm trying to think. There's all sorts of resources attached to it at the end. So there's all kinds of gifts of, like, the the podcast trackers. Uh, I have a 1 sheet, Uh, thing as well, but they can they can use too if they want to. And then, uh, we also have something for a press release, and I feel like I threw some oh, yeah. I have a template For asking for, uh, testimonials and referrals that [00:22:00] I also throw in there as well. So we end with gifts. Oh, and, of course, I forgot the most important part. We do live feedback. So they will actually draft that letter while we're on the workshop together, and then they can get live feedback from me, uh, while they're on the workshop. Or if we're very introverted, and that sounds terrible, they can also email it to me afterwards, and we can just work on it via email. That's It's wonderful. Sarah: Yeah. Really, really looking forward to that. Thanks so much for for doing this. So, again, if you're listening to this and You're not yet part of the Humane Marketing Circle, you can still join us. And and so just go to humane dot marketing forward slash Workshop, and the page will be ready there. We're just asking for a donation, uh, between 15 and 27 dollars. But, yeah, we'd love to have you and, uh, workshop. You're pitching with us. I'm really looking forward to to that. Thanks so much, um, for doing this. And something just just came to mind, and it left me again.[00:23:00] What did it have to do with? Something that you said in the bonuses. 1 Rachel: sheet, press Sarah: releases. Yeah. Press releases. Exactly. Because we talked a lot about podcast pitching today, um, and then we talked about Service pitching. But you're right. There's the there's the testimonials. That's the other 1 you mentioned. In a way, that's a pitch too. Right? It's a pitch. It has this kind of sales connotation, but essentially, it's just an ask. It's Yeah. Asking for something, And that can be a testimonial. It can be for for, uh, yeah, an article that you want to have published. Um, any anything I'm forgetting? Rachel: Yeah. Like, referral asks. I do that a lot as well, um, and I encourage my clients to do it. Gosh. Anything. Uh, pitching to be to to teach a workshop in someone's space. I've done that a lot. I also teach, uh, like, continuing legal education. Uh, so I do legal marketing stuff [00:24:00] as well. So, uh, I'll pitch to law societies or bar associations and say, hey. I'd love to do a CLE for you. So There's I mean, it's really I love that you reframed it as an ask because that's really what it is. It's just, hey. Can we do this? Yeah. And that's so much easier to get behind than Give me something, which I think is most people approach pitching. Sarah: Yeah. Exactly. Can't wait. So Really? Yeah. Go Go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop and join us on March sixth because we're gonna have lots of fun and, uh, doing some serious work as well. So thanks so much, Rachel. Rachel: Uh, I love it. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
34:31 2/23/24
Unlocking the Human Approach to Business & Marketing: Details about the Marketing Like We're Human Program
Allow me a moment to share a bit of context and details about the Marketing Like We’re Human aka The Client Resonator program that's starting again on March 14th. This is my flagship 3month program that is tightly linked to this podcast, because it follows the same framework: the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It’s a deep dive into these 7Ps to help you discover who you are, what your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak. But this is more than just marketing. This is building the foundation for your life’s work! We start with the inner: the Passion, the Personal Power and then go to the Outer: the People, the Product, the Pricing, the Promotion and the Partnership with others. We go deep, in an intimate group, and come out transformed, with a business that we’re truly aligned with. It’s a hybrid program with a 30 minute video to watch each week, a beautiful workbook with deep reflection and journal prompts and then a live group call to go deeper! Who is it for? Whether you have 1 year, 5 years or 10 years business experience, it’s never to late to go back to create the foundation and instead of just a business, create your life’s works, so you can truly market from who you are. The best is always to hear it from other participants. Have a look at There are plenty of testimonials and a handful of in depth case studies. Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business.
11:48 2/16/24
Get Direction & Clarity by Knowing Your Values
In today's episode I’m welcoming Melissa Davis to talk about how to get clarity and direction in our business by knowing our values. We delve into the crucial process of translating our values into tangible actions and enabling us to authentically 'walk our talk.' Join us as we explore how this deep reflection on our values not only aligns with our purpose but serves as a guiding force toward genuine business clarity. This episode is a compass for solopreneurs navigating the path of purpose-driven business in the evolving landscape of conscious entrepreneurship. In our conversation, Melissa and I addressed the following topics: How Melissa’s own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and ‘walk our talk' How this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and much more...   Ep 182 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers, because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zannakroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're Ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like Like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer 1 on 1 support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, General business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, Wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my 1 on 1 client. You can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane dot marketing. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the p of Personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7 p's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here, this is your first time, a very big warm welcome. But you may not know what I'm talking about, You can go to download your 1 page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the 7 [00:03:00] Ps of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash guanpage, the number 1 in the word page. And this comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So today, I'm talking to Melissa Davis about the importance of your values. And if you're familiar with my work, you know how much I care about values as well. I wrote about them in the Marketing Like Human book and they are also part of the Marketing Like We're Human program. And it's really by talking with Melissa that I realized How knowing your values really gives you clarity and direction in your business. I always knew they were important and At the Marketing Like We're Human program is this foundational marketing program, but when she mentioned clarity and direction, I'm like, yeah, I'm totally with you. Before I tell you a little bit more about [00:04:00] Melissa, allow me to share a little bit more about The marketing like we're human, AKA the client resonator, my flagship program that I've been running since 2009 19 pre COVID, imagine that. And, uh, it starts again with a live cohort on March fourteenth. So today I was just talking to a potential participant and described the program to him as a program for deep thinkers. I think you heard me say that before on this podcast. I really feel Like a deep thinker myself, and I feel like that's who I do my best work with. And so, yeah, it's a program for deep thinkers who want to create their marketing foundation once and for all. So starting from within, from their why, and aligned with whom they are and aligned with their values. So if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you [00:05:00] are already familiar with the 7 p's of humane marketing. So passion, Personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. And that's exactly the framework that the program follows. And besides in-depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the marketing foundation, I often have participants who are not really new to business. So, Yes. It's foundational. But oftentimes, in business, we come to the foundation maybe 2 years in, maybe 5 years in, or even 10 years in. And that's because first, we are just wanting to Do the marketing stuff, you know, the the the the how. We are interested in the how. And so a lot of times people come to me after being 2 years, [00:06:00] 5 years, or 10 years, and often that's kind of when they're pivoting In their business and they've been through the motions. They've done what people told them to do in their marketing and just realized, A, it's not working. Or b, it may have been working, but it brought them the wrong clients or it's just not aligned with Them or their bigger why. So, yeah, that that's probably a third, um, uh, participant is Is the 1 that is looking for this bigger why. That has been in business and of course, I'm talking a little bit about myself and that's why I created the program. Um, so, you know, I had a business, a LinkedIn consultancy business for 10 plus years, but I just Felt like there's more than that. There's more than just the business that pays the bills. And so that's really what this, uh, program also does. It Connects you with your why, it connects you with your [00:07:00] life's work, and, uh, creates this foundation that is aligned with who you are and allows you to bring more of you to your marketing. Yeah. So that's what we do. We we go deep and we create the Foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part Self development, part very pragmatic business best practices, part left, part right brain, mind and heart. And if that's resonating with you, have a look at the program details and watch some of the case studies, uh, as well at, uh, humane dot marketing forward slash program. And then let's get on a call to answer your questions and find out if it's a good Fit for you and where you currently are in your business. Okay. Back to Melissa. So Melissa Davis is on a mission to make sure that every change [00:08:00] maker gets the clarity they need to reach their full potential and deliver their gifts to the world. Through her work with startups, entrepreneurs, and change makers, she's uncovered an Invaluable process for helping them get foundational clarity, love that, on their purpose and Packed so they can go out and into the world and start top taking action. So in our conversation, we addressed the following topics, how Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and actually walk our talk. So going beyond Just that poster in our office that has our values up there. Well, how do we actually bring them into our business, bring them into our marketing? And then also how this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and, uh, of [00:09:00] course, so much more. So Without further ado and blah blah, let's, uh, dive right in. Hey, Melissa. So good to see you. Talk to you again. Really delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast. Melissa: Oh, I'm really excited to be here. Um, I love your work, Sarah, and I have your book right here. I mean, um, rereading. Yeah. I I, um, I'm thrilled to To kind of sit down and, and, and really just dive into all of this because I think it's so important, um, To me as well. Um, and I just I really love I really love the work you're Sarah: doing. Thank you. And and maybe we can start by sharing how we Connected. I think that's always interesting for, uh, listeners to hear because, you know, there's this rare occasion where I do accept, Uh, a podcast pitch, but it's very rare. Most [00:10:00] often, it's, you know, conversations or, uh, Kind of like serendipity meetings like ours, uh, that then lead me to say, hey. I want you on my podcast. So why why don't you start by sharing that story? I'm trying to remember the story. Melissa: Did I reach I reached out Sarah: to you. Yeah. You reached out to me where, uh, we were connected on the collect, Uh, the, um Oh, yeah. Melissa: That's right. Changing work collective. Changing work Sarah: collective. Yeah. And so you reached out to me there. And then I was, like, Looking at your website and it said, Humanity Inc. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yes. You know, there's serendipity right there. Yeah. Yeah. And so we Melissa: have Well, that's what I thought when I read your, you know, your bio, and I I think I saw you post, um, may it may have been something about the book. Um, right. And it was just like, I've gotta connect to Sarah. You know, you know you know when when you see it. You know you know when [00:11:00] you see That authenticity, um, show up. Yeah. And and it just it it felt like we needed to connect. Sarah: Yeah. And here we are a few months later. Thank you. Um, so, yeah, let's let's talk about Well, you mentioned authenticity. Uh, we wanna talk about values because that's the work you do. So maybe start us off there. Like, How did you get into this work and why did you call like, I have so many questions. Why do you call Your website, Humanity Inc, and what does that have to do with values? I guess that's my Melissa: first question. Okay. So there's like a little figure 8 of a story here. Um, so I got into values. So values was the initial impetus for me to kind of leave, um, Um, traditional work and go off on my own. Um, so I'd worked with, um, a few I'd [00:12:00] Worked with a few different larger organizations and then, um, a few smaller startup organizations. And, Um, what triggered my exploration of values was actually misalignment to values. And I think that's probably how everybody starts to recognize This distance between them and something else that's happening. Right? So, you know, what I recognized specifically in in The the the 1 startup that I'd been with for 5 years, um, was that we didn't have A singular set of values that drove us all in the same direction. And and so, You know, when I sat where I sat in the office, I was looking at this wall with these, you know, you can buy that big sticker with whatever writing you want on it. And I had the values of the organization. And I sat there every day and I rolled my eyes at this list of values that the organization said They were driven by, [00:13:00] and it was just bullshit. You know, I hope I can swear on your podcast. I'm sorry. Yeah. No. It really wasn't. It was just and and so I started calling them eye roll values. And I don't know if I started doing that at the time, but I definitely did later. Um, you know, and it's kind of like the worst thing that can, you know, erode an organization is having declaring that this is what we're all about, But we don't reflect that at all within our organization. So we kind of tried to dig in and and really understand What was happening in the organization? What were our, you know, um, driving values? What what came what brought us all together To grow in in the direction the organization wanted us to. Um, and so eventually I left That organization, because no 1 was interested in looking at that with me. No 1. You know, I mean, particularly in the leadership, um, There. And so [00:14:00] that was really frustrating. So my first experience with exploring values was incredibly frustrating, but, but it, It just really led me to kind of dig in further. And I, and I really developed this whole structure around it, you know, and, and continue to just Build on how I understood values and the roles that they played. And it was really focused on within organizations. Um, and I landed a a really fantastic job, um, And was incredibly excited about it. It was really aligned to my values. It was aligned to the work that I wanted to be doing with values embedded in my work. Um, and I ended up being laid off 3 months later when the giant client that I was brought in to to support left. And as most layoffs go, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know, I mean, if you've ever been laid off, it's devastating at the time. But if you ask 9 [00:15:00] out of 10 People who ever, you know, got laid off ends up being the best thing that's ever happened to them in their career. And that's true for me as well. So, Um, you know, initially set off to continue my job search, um, and advance my career, and I just couldn't nothing. Nothing sounded good. I had a few offers. I just I couldn't stomach it. I would read these job descriptions, and I was just like, Do this. I don't wanna do any of it. It all makes me nauseous. It all just felt so shallow and so Boring, and I just I just couldn't do it. I really, like I physically was like, Do it, um, which is funny because I was pretty driven before. Um, and and it really struck me at that point that I've been doing all this work of examining organizations. Right? Like, why am I not turning this in on myself so that I could Figure out what this thing is that you [00:16:00] felt this fire, like just restlessness to do something completely different. Um, and it didn't occur to me until then to turn the work I was doing in values around on myself. Right. Uh, and that's really, that's the impetus for me going into business. Now, at the time, that business became values to brand, and it was focused on marketing. Um, I'd had some experience in marketing. Um, I went off and I studied with Donald Miller and I became a guide. Um, I'm no longer, um, a StoryBrand guide, but it was incredibly valuable for me to kind of build, Um, you know, some authority in the marketing space and their, um, their model, um, and Structure around it is just so incredibly simple and and wonderful. Um, and so When was that? So when was this whole? 2017 Teen maybe ish. No. Eights are not my thing. No, mine [00:17:00] neither. You have to be 18. My husband is the master of the debates. Right. You know, like, what what time was Owen born? You know, like, I'm like, I don't know. There's just my brain doesn't work like that. Right. Um, and I've worked in accounting. Um, so yeah. And and and so I continued in that, and And it just over time evolved into really understanding that what I was doing wasn't marketing And what I loved wasn't marketing. I could do it and I became incredibly proficient at it and fantastic at writing and articulating What other people couldn't articulate well, um, and that is that's a real gift of mine. Um, it's But I discovered it really wasn't marketing. And what I really wanted to do was help people get clarity because I started working with organizations, it was very small Organizations, but organizations, um, [00:18:00] in their marketing efforts. And I had a lot of technology background, so it was really easy to kind of like dive in. But they had they actually had no clarity around how they wanted to talk about what they needed to in their marketing. And so I kind of went, I need to be back here further. I need to be earlier in the journey. Mhmm. Um, and Mhmm. Because that's what I that's my gift. I I'm really fantastic at pulling putting dots together, and it all starts with values. Values just they there's So many roles that values play. It's we we often look at values in this very thin kind of, um, lens Of what's important to me. You're right. And values are so, so much more than that. And there's so much tangible evidence in our lives to tell us what our values are and to explore them and to reveal themselves to us. And so it's really accessible and it offers so much information [00:19:00] about our gifts and about our passion and What we really want to be doing with our lives and who to surround ourselves with and how to go at it. And so, um, And I was so passionate about doing work that mattered and solving problems that really advance humanity. Not, You know, not this localized sense of I just wanna make my life better, which is fantastic, and I think that That's a step. Um, but what really was important to me was to work with clients who had a sew that. Right? This idea that This work matters because I wanna help solve this bigger problem in the world. Right. Yeah. And so it eventually changed to Humanity Inc. Sarah: Okay. So the the website then changed to Humanity Inc. Yeah. And And, yeah, really, there was this huge resonance when I when I saw the [00:20:00] website, Humanity Inc, but then also when we had This conversation a few months back when you were sharing about the values, and I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm talking about the worldview And how, you know, in the in the 7 p's of humane marketing, you you start with passion and personal power, Which is exactly what you said. I'm earlier in the journey, and so that's what you're helping your clients with. Um, and and 1 word that really stood out as Well, is the word that you use clarity. And and I have been starting to say foundation. So it Melissa: Like That's what I end up call I call myself a foundational clarity Sarah: coach. Ah, there you go. Yeah. So so it really is that that saying where it's like, well, Yeah. You need clarity, and then you need that clarity to build your foundation. And that's what in a way, that's what you did. You figured out your values, And then you brought those values into your business and into your marketing and called it [00:21:00] humanity, Inc. Because you care about these Melissa: things. And so you want And my clients care about those things. Right? You want to help people. Yeah. Our our niche, our clients value what we value and they believe what we believe. Exactly. And it's within the scope of the values that we are driving and making central to our business. Right? We have, You know, we we have a lot of beliefs and we have, um, a number of values that are very central to us. And, you know, what we do is kind of like, what's the, Um, what's the stake in the ground that I'm putting out there and what are the values that drive that? And our niche, You know, our, our customers and our clients, they share those values and they believe what we believe. And so, you know, it drives me crazy when I see an entrepreneur trying to understand the values of their niche. And I'm like, you have to understand your values. Right. Your values. Absolutely. Start with you. Decide your niche. Yeah. [00:22:00] Mhmm. Yeah. And then you may have to figure Sarah: out the next thing I can do. Out there is so outward focused. Right? Yes. We feel like we're wasting time if we're look looking inside. And so I guess the question then, The logical next step question is, well, knowing my values, how do I turn those values into tangible Actions or, you know, business advice. So Melissa: take us there. Oh, that's the most exciting part. I mean, Our values provide so many clues as to what our outward action needs to look like. Um, you know, and they play different roles. You know, some of our Our highest values are part of the problem that we solve for our niche. [00:23:00] And that's a little bit of a process, but that really that 1 in particular kind of blows people's minds. Right? We're all, I think at our core, 1 of our deepest drives as human beings beyond safety and belonging Is to live in alignment to our values because that leads us to this Fulfillment, right, and to the these higher levels in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the pathway to doing that is actually living in alignment to our values. At the base of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, values don't play, um, a role. They don't play as big of a role In, um, in making sure that we're safe, making sure that we're fed, making sure that we have a roof over our house. Right? It's kinda hard to focus on values When we have to take care of our basic needs. Beyond that, as we, you know, as we move through belonging and then and then further up, our drive [00:24:00] Is to feel passionate and to feel fulfilled and happy and surround ourselves with people that are like us. And so, um, there's good sides to that, and there's not so good sides to that. Right? You know, our values kind of shift and evolve A little bit over time, they they reprioritize, um, but there is this massive drive to do that. And so what happens throughout our journey, wherever we are, whatever we're doing and whatever we desire, there's often a value of ours that we struggle to live. Right? So our values, um, we can have really strong values for something and not do a very good job of living it. Um, if if a value is not lived, we feel this Dissonance, this cognitive dissonance. And it it can actually make us feel sick. So we know it when it happens. We we don't feel good about ourselves. We don't feel good about our lives. We don't Feel right? We feel unfulfilled. Um, [00:25:00] and so what we do is we seek to close that gap, Right? In a lot of different ways. Some are healthy and some are not healthy. Um, but we reach urgency See, when we realize I've gotta do something that allows me to live this value, um, at a much higher level. And so ultimately, every problem that any entrepreneur solves is tied to helping our Clients and customers close the gap on a value that they're not living very well. Mhmm. And we may directly do it or we may indirectly do it, but we've got to And how we connect to living their values. And so that is 1 of the most direct ways that our values play into how we show up as entrepreneur, but they also determine our differentiation. I wanna work with, You know, I can work with any marketing expert. What differentiates you, Sarah, [00:26:00] you know, and your teaching Is your values. Right? Um, and it's 1 element of it, but it's probably the most important element of differentiation is I wanna work with somebody who shares my values. Right? It's important to me to get visible. I'm talking about myself right now. It's important for me to get visible. I have something really important that I want and need the world to know, and I have something to offer that I think is really important because We need more change makers to get out there and do the work of solving the big problems so that we can advance humanity. Right? Exactly. Okay. That value that I'm closing there for myself and for my clients is accountability. It's this sense of I must, I I know I have a higher potential and I've got to live it. I have this accountability to it. Um, if I sit here and I don't get visible and I don't do it Right. I'm not living my value of accountability. I'm sitting on my [00:27:00] butt and I'm wasting away and I'm not doing the thing. Um, and what I'm drawn to with you is is your value of Living in in your conscience, living in showing up in a humane way And living in compassion. And so that is How you do the work that you do. And it's important to me to align with somebody that does that because I don't wanna go out and spam The world with anything. Right? I can't this this interview is incredibly timely because I just really, like, hit my limit on the number of Invitations that I get on LinkedIn that are immediately followed by a pitch. I saw your Sarah: post. Yeah. Melissa: I'm like, And not doing it anymore. Um, and I've said that before and I still do it because I'm like, what if they're [00:28:00] like the most wonderful connection that I ever, you know, Um, I'm probably an eternal optimist, and I really I really don't like to shut people down and live in that energy. Um, but then it happens, and I'm deeply disappointed. And I'm like, why were you disappointed in this, Melissa? Well, it's that value. Right? Yeah. Um, so we work with people, right? There are operating values that we have, and there are differentiation. You know, they're how we show up To do the work that we do. And we must really embrace those values because that's what other people are are very much attracted to. We have very little competition in the world. Right? Mhmm. Very little competition in the world because Yeah. The way that you do it, the uniqueness Of how you do it is incredibly different from everyone around you. Yeah. There are plenty of people, right, That are drawn to it, but you have to get visible. I know we were talking about that before. So you still need to get out there. [00:29:00] Um, but then Yeah. But that's the targeted Sarah: action that we were saying. Well, how do you turn this these values that are internal Into something external. Um, well, you just said it. Right? It's like, okay, I wanna be visible, but I don't wanna just be visible in any kind of spammy way. Right? Yeah. You would never do that and just start spamming everybody, um, um, LinkedIn with with your pitches. So So it's like the value gets transformed or transmitted to the action that you're taking. And And for you, it's values. For me, it's worldview or the humane approach to whatever you do. And It's so true. And another thing that came up when you mentioned the Maslow's pyramid, I'm like, yeah. That's that's really good because my I call my people and I know you are a deep thinker as well. Right? That's kind of for me, that's a flag. It's like, this person is a deep Thinker, just like me. And they don't, you [00:30:00] know, they they they look at things. Yeah. They just think Deeply about things and they care. Uh, you know, humane marketing is for the generation of marketers that care. It's this deep deep Care and thinking about things. Um, and you're right. That doesn't happen at the bottom of the pyramid. Right? It's like you Have evolved, uh, or Yeah. Well, you can't Melissa: the privilege as well. You have the privilege. Exactly right. And have the privilege to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's too it's too much. Um, it had it happens. There are some people who can who can do that And who are struggling to to make it, um, for whatever reason, um, through the hierarchy of needs, it happens. But it's very it's it's too much to ask for someone who is who is struggling to Strictly aligned to their values, [00:31:00] um, and to focus on that and and to be able to do that. And it's it's, uh, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. And we need to, you know, understand that and show empathy because we're not in the same situation. Melissa: So Exactly. Right. And have someone that they can work with. Right. Or something that we can offer. Right. That, um, is more accessible. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. This whole conversation also made me think of, uh, another conversation I had on the podcast about activism, Like business, uh, as activism. Right? And in a way, we're we're almost talking about that here because Especially because we care, you say, you know, humanity. You mentioned the current, uh, challenges. So in a way, it's almost like it's Borderline activism because we are truly just saying, no, we're not just doing it for the profit. We're really wanting it to do also [00:32:00] to move humanity or, you know, solve the problems we were facing right now. Melissa: Yeah. And it is like, I, you know, I, I use word, put a stake in the ground, you know, what do you stand for? Uh, and I think that Oftentimes that gets confused with, I have to have an opinion about everything, or I have to show my solidarity With what's happening in the world or I have to make a statement, and that's not what it means. What it means is I understand the lane That I'm passionate about. Mhmm. I understand where my stake in the ground Is and where people are looking to me for my thoughts and opinions and solidarity and strength. Mhmm. And, Um, I've I I and I do struggle with this even. You know, um, you know, when you when you look at what's happening in the world and people around you look for A [00:33:00] statement. Right. Something big happens. And I think we all have to kind of look internally and say, what What is my lane? Is this something that the world is looking to me for my thoughts Um, there that's a big difference between reaching out to the people in your lives who And having conversations. Yeah. And having conversations. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. Yeah. Um, but I think it's very challenging. I think the world is is, And social media specifically conflates this sense of having a stake in the ground with Showing up to every big thing that happens and demanding that you put a stake in the ground in a space that's not yours. And But it's such a good point. Yeah. Quite a big challenge to me. And I, um, have to remind myself all the [00:34:00] time that That's not my I didn't put a stake in the ground on that fight. If I had, then it is demanded that I that I Have something to say, I suppose. Yeah. Um, you know Sarah: what I use for this? I use the 17 sustainable development goals for this with my clients, And I have you know, this is the UN who basically looked at all the current challenges that we have and said, okay. Here are 17 that are currently really pressing. Um, and so I have my clients look at that and say, look. All of these problems right now are super important. Uh, all of them, all 17, but you can't focus your energy on all 17. So Choose 1 or Melissa: 2 maximum. I would argue. Sarah: I would argue. 1. Yeah. 1 is this number 17 is partnership. And so I feel like that applies to, like, almost everything because we need partnership and [00:35:00] community in Melissa: every That's a how though. It Sarah: yeah. It's it's almost like it's kind of a side. Right? Because the other ones are are, you know, Water, ocean, um, climate, like electricity Melissa: and all of that. So so yeah. It's almost like unity. You know? Exactly. So Sarah: that's why I say Pick 2, but make sure a partnership is 1 of them. Right. But but then yeah. Exactly what you say. Then it's like, well, if, You know, that there's something going on that has to do with that topic, then, yes. You know, people expect you to maybe make a statement. Um, but if it's not, then then it's not it's not your role to to to pitch in. So I I really like how you said it. Is it my lane? Is this expect because I use the word worldview, And there as well, it could be like, oh, I have to always express my worldview about this and this and this. Yeah. Like, no. I I [00:36:00] actually don't feel good about Because then we have the polarity, you know, with all these wars that are going on right now. And so it's like, well, no. I don't need to say, you know, if I'm I'm not usually, I'm not on any side, but I yeah. It's not part of My role, even I guess, as an activist, it wouldn't be part of of my role in this case. Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and There are times when I think that we do need to make a stand. There are definitely, you know, Points where it's incredibly relevant to our work to do it. Um, and and then we should. You know, it's just deciding, Is this because we feel the pressure to, you know, is this something that's relevant Yeah. To be in my work? Um, not just everyone's making a statement, and therefore I need to. Mhmm. So [00:37:00] Because, of course, we have opinions and we have thoughts and we have, you know, I mean, um, and explorations and confusion and, you know, and And questions and it but it doesn't mean that that and and I'm talking about a brand. I'm talking about, You know, us as humans behind a brand and a business and this stake in the ground that we've put around, what do we stand for? And this is why I'm doing the work that I'm doing. Right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's it is. It's incredibly challenging. However, understanding what you Stand for understanding your values, understanding, as you said, the roles that I play. What is my role in my work? And then how do I show up through that role to make a statement, um, or to Further my stake in the ground or to explain or whatever, that's incredibly helpful to take action. Mhmm. Because actions are how we live our values. Right? What are the roles that, Um, [00:38:00] that embody me and who I am that allow me to live my values. So, um, they're, they're incredibly helpful for understanding when it's right, you know, and how to, um, Take action on anything, not just, you know, not just activism, but but on anything. How do I show up on social media? How do I show up? It's walking the talk. Yeah. How do I show up? Right? Those are the roles. Mhmm. Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about The idea of changing values. So not us necessarily, um, but more like Humanity at large. Right? I feel like we're going through a huge shift of changing values. Um, right now, Uh, maybe we're still in the middle of the storm, but we're definitely getting towards something, um, Kind of more conscious and, you know, at [00:39:00] least the the probably the the people that we hang out with, Uh, have very different values from maybe, uh, our grandparents had. So how have you looked at this also kind of in from a larger Effective, you know, how do generations how do their values change? Melissa: Yeah. It's really interesting to look at, And it's not something that I've spent a lot of time focusing on, you know, the the the evolution of values because Cultures have these kind of underlying, you know, values that drive them. Um, communities have values that drive them. Generations have values is that drive them. Um, and so there are all these different flavors of these group values. Right. And, you know, and then we have our individual values. And values come from a lot of different places and named a couple, but Religion, our family, you know, our culture, right? There are all these kind of [00:40:00] outside forces that impose values on us. Right. And then we have these innate values, these things that we're, like, born with or that develop from experiences that we have in our lives. And for whatever reason, they're all there, for right or for wrong. And, you know, values, We often put this kind of positive slant on values, and there's this incredibly powerful driver that values can have on us. But there's also dark side of values, Right? Values are how we show up in our bias. Values are how we show up in our judgment. And so they Aren't always positive drivers in our lives. So it's really interesting to look at, you know, how they influence How we move around in the world and how we see things in front of us. Um, and so It's fascinating to look at. It is fascinating to look at how things shift and change because those cultural values, those [00:41:00] religious values, right? I think what's happening is that we're questioning more Than we were before. Right. So I think all of that's still happening. Right? There's always an evolution of cultural values. There's always an evolution of Religious values and of course through generations, those values that get passed on change too because our parents have different experiences in the world and they want to Still different things in us. And so there's just an evolution that happens. But I think what's happening now is that we're questioning it more. I think we're going, is that mine? Is it really my responsibility to carry on this value? Is it it's not mine. It's my parents. It's it's it's this religion that I don't wanna have anything to do with anymore. It's this Culture in America that's toxic. Right? It's not mine. I think we're just [00:42:00] I think we're more introspective. Well, general You and I Sarah: also everybody. About change makers. Right? And so just this word change maker, well, obviously, We want change. And so, clearly, our values can be the same as the values that, Uh, our parents or grandparents had. Yep. So we are looking for something that is different than we have today. And so, necessarily, our values need to be not according to, you know, what has worked in the past 50 years. So I I feel like, yeah, that's fascinating too. And I'm sure you kinda see a pattern with your clients as well that often the values are, Melissa: you know, similar. So Of course, they are because my clients value what I value and they believe what I believe. Now that doesn't mean they're exactly the same by any stretch. And that's the beautiful thing. I think I would be bored out of my skull if [00:43:00] every client I worked with wanted to do what I did and had the exact same values and the same experiences. That's not even close to true. Right. Their experiences with their values are so incredibly different. They show up in so many different ways, and they drive them in different ways. And the combination we have these like, oh, I get so excited talking about this. There's this magical combination of these values that we have that come together That, like, create they they they make a shape out of this fire that we have. And it's So cool to see that come together. I often could see it coming together before they do. And so they're like, I don't know why you're so excited about this. But, you know, you can you can really see it. You can see the essence of Sarah when I see that magical combination and Why this stake in the ground is so important to you and how these gifts that you have come together in this way that allow you to go out and do that. [00:44:00] And, um, yeah, I think we're, we're just, um, we're getting to the point where We're invested in in understanding ourselves at a really deep level, and I think that's expanding. I think people Know that it's possible. You know, we we kinda have this when we talk about conscious or, you know, inhumane marketing and, Um, being more compassionate about the world and open minded. And when we look at social media, we're like, ugh. Right? However, social media and the Internet have also done amazing things for open mindedness and for Exposing us to ideas and thoughts and solutions and pathways that we never would have been exposed to. And so I think that is also contributing to this idea of it's possible for me to move from this [00:45:00] state of being to another State of being or from this state of action to another state of action and to experience this transformation and this capability that I have To go out and do something big. Mhmm. And so for some people, what would just be this little, like, forever frustration Of knowing they have potential that, you know, that just dies with them at the end of their lives. They're realizing that there are pathways to take action on it And do something about it. And to me, that's the the most tragic is to have that and to know that you have this fire, to know that you have this Big potential and to never have taken action on it. Sarah: Yeah. What you described before is basically the definition of a change maker. Right? It's like, okay, I I know I I can contribute to this change. And and, um, I was having another conversation about pivots. I [00:46:00] was part of some summit about pivots, and I feel like there's Such an awakening of, uh, pivots now because people are kinda like you a few years ago. Right? You're in this corporate job, And you just like, I know we can do something much bigger than Melissa: what we're doing. I didn't even know what it looked like. It Sarah: was just Yeah. It's just like this Inner knowing, and it's like, well, I need to get out of this prison, and I just need to create it myself. And I feel like there's a lot of and a lot of people in this Melissa: Situation. And to be clear, I had to take a part time job to do that. Of course. No. That's the other thing. It's like you can't just jump ship and then Well, you can. But I I wanna, like, you know, I hate when, you know, it seems to somebody from the outside that, you know, you just make this jump. I just decided, and now I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm making a million no. That's not what happened. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:47:00] um, there is Nothing wrong with taking the step and saying, okay, what do I need to do to allow myself to take this The step towards what I know is bigger. And I'm like, you know Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel like we're at a very Promising crossroad, um, of of change. So I'm just super grateful that you're helping all these change makers find clarity because That is the 1 thing that can waste you a lot of time if you don't have clarity. Right? Melissa: Um, and I'm so grateful that you're helping them Figure out how to get out into the world with the message that they, that they have and need to deliver and to grow. Because if we can't grow, we can't impact. Yeah. Period. That's the thing. I mean, that's that's it. Right? Right. Sarah: You know? I feel like that's a a beautiful place to to close. This was wonderful. Thanks so much for [00:48:00] being here. 2 things. Um, please do share where people can find out more about humanity and your work on clarity and values. So share that. And then I have another last Melissa: question. Okay. Um, so you can find me on my website, Um, humanityinc dot world. Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, um, at melissa highsley hyphen davis. And if you have show notes, so we can put it there so that you don't have to try to spell that. Um, those are the 2 primary places that I hang out. Sarah: Yeah. And my my last question that I always ask is, what are you grateful for today or this week? This year, I can say because we're at the beginning of the Melissa: year. Um, well, I'm grateful that you invited me on this podcast and I was really excited to be here because I I really do love your work so much. Um, and let's say this year, [00:49:00] um, I'm grateful for Realizing that I needed to bring other people into my work. Mhmm. And for that shift of I need to create this myself to I need to collaboration has always been really important to me, but but there's this I mean, you know, you're a creator too. And I don't know. There is it's tough. It's tough when you're creating To shift from creating to sharing. And and so it's, um, I'm grateful for that shift. I'm very grateful for that shift, and I'm grateful that I'm getting more comfortable being a lot more visible. And so I'm really excited, um, about everything. Yay. Sarah: Thank you for moments. Right? It's kinda like Exactly. Melissa: That's what I [00:50:00] live for. And it's really fun when they're your own too. Sarah: Yeah. It's amazing. Thanks so much for being here and, uh, to be continued, of course. To be continued. Thank you. As always, I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Hopefully, uh, that makes you think deeper about your values and how they impact your work. In order to find out more about Melissa and Her work, go over to humanity inc dot world, and you can also get her foundational clarity canvas at humanity inc dot dot com forward slash foundational dash clarity dash canvas. And if you are looking for others who think like you, why not join us in the humane marketing circle? You can find out more about The circle at humane dot marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at [00:51:00] humane dot marketing forward slash h m 1 8 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business Festo and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my 2 books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.
51:46 2/9/24
How to Stand Out, Authentically
In today's episode I’m excited to welcome Louise Taylor, a heart-centered marketing expert and a member of our Humane Marketing Circle. Louise brings a wealth of experience from her transformative journey in both corporate and creative realms. In this enlightening conversation, we explore how truly understanding yourself is key to standing out authentically in business. We discuss the profound impact of authenticity in resonating with your clients, and delve into how tools like the Fascinate assessment can illuminate your unique wiring. Join us for this insightful episode filled with practical tips for bringing your true self into your marketing and connecting deeply with those you serve. In this value-packed episode, Louise and I addressed: How Louise left her 20 year Corporate career and had to figure out how to market herself How taking the time to really figuring out who you are and how you’re wired is the key to stand out authentically (and it’s what we do so well in the MLWH program, which Louise participated in as well) How authenticity gives you deep inner peace and confidence to show up and stand out and resonate with your clients How Fascinate, an assessment created by Sally Hogshead truly helps you understand how the world sees you - and how you’re fascinating How to bring this knowledge into your marketing (bring more of you to your marketing, as I always say) and much more... [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing circle And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 15 years. Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Hi there friends, thank you for being here. Today's conversation fits under the P of I'd say personal power and passion. So if you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is the first time you hear about this, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane Marketing at humane. marketing forward [00:03:00] slash one. Page. The number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's not a, a seven step list on how to do humane marketing, but it's a reflective so that you get to actually be in charge and be this responsible, uh, business owner and human being to, um, put the thoughts into that kind of. groundwork for humane marketing. All right. So today I sit down with Louise Taylor, a fellow marketer, HSP, and member of the humane marketing circle, and we're getting ready to co host another collab workshop, and this time the topic is standing out. Authentically. So Louise Taylor is a heart centered brand and marketing leader with 20 plus years of experience in corporate, [00:04:00] B2B, B2C financial services, and purpose driven businesses. Add to that a decade of expertise in creative services, including design and photography, as an entrepreneur and creative soul early in her career. A high sensory coach, fascinate. So, certified advisor, high sensitive person and mentor. She naturally focuses on creating sincere and meaningful connections with all she engages with. As the founder of Firefly Effect, she brings a discerning and analytical approach and leverages her breadth of experience to help purpose driven and mission led organizations achieve their business goals and create a positive impact on those they serve. So in this value packed episode with Louise, we addressed how she left her 20 year corporate career and had to figure out how to market herself, how taking the time during COVID to [00:05:00] really figuring out how Who she was and how she's wired and how that really is the key to stand out authentically. And it's what we do so well in the Marketing Like We're Human program, which Louise also participated in, in those COVID years. We also talked about how authenticity gives you deep inner peace and it gives you the confidence to show up. and stand out and resonate with your clients. We then talked about how fascinate, uh, which is this assessment created by Sally Hogshead, truly helps you understand how the world sees you and how you're fascinating. So it's one of these assessments dad, um, looks from the outside in where most of the other assessments, Myers Briggs, Enneagram, et cetera, uh, look from The inside out. So how you see the world, how to then bring this knowledge into your marketing, as I [00:06:00] say, always bring more of you to your marketing. Um, but we need to actually figure out what is more of me. And so that's what this assessment and, and the work with fascinate helps us understand, well, this is more of me. So now let me bring more of that into our marketing. Both Louise and I share our assessment results. And so that kind of gives you some information about how, uh, the world sees me and the world sees Louise and how we actually live that in our businesses and much, much more. So have a listen, and if you crave more and want to learn more about these seven fascinate languages and have heartfelt conversations in a safe haven, then join us on February 7th, uh, have a look at humane. marketing, uh, forward slash workshop. So let's dive in right now. Hi, Louise. [00:07:00] So good to hang out with you. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Thank you. So great to be here. I'm so excited to be able to connect with you again. As always. It's always a great conversation. Yeah. And we, we did some prepping for this one because we're also collaborating on another collab workshop. And I'm really, really excited to have you on February 7th for the workshop that we do together around February 7th. You know, standing out authentically, but this is kind of like a teaser, uh, of this, uh, one on an hour and a half workshop. Um, but we're not just teasing. We're always giving great value as well. Right. For people who, who are, um, valued listeners, they, they know this about us and me. So I look forward to dig in. I was thinking maybe you can start with, um, you know, how you. Your story and how you moved [00:08:00] out of corporate, I was gonna say America, but corporate Canada. . How you moved corporate Canada, outta corporate Canada and then as, as a marketer, and then started your own business and, and then realized. Oh, okay. This is a different ball game. I have to now, you know, put myself out there and I have to sell myself and I still want to do it authentically. So, yeah, take us there. Tell us that story. How that evolved. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, I spent. 20 years in corporate marketing and, you know, my last role as a, as a marketing leader, building marketing teams and functions and strategic, you know, making them a strategic function. And so it was very demanding. Um, I loved the work that I did. I loved, um, the learning that I got from all of those 20 years in, um, you know, developing myself as a marketer. And then in 2019, um, I [00:09:00] was, my, my role was eliminated and I was packaged and as part of a reorg, um, and then COVID hit and, you know, my initial thoughts were jump right back in and, you know, and, and get on that hamster wheel again. And when COVID hit, I had an opportunity to really sit back and kind of go, what do I really love? What would I love and instead of. Thinking that I need to do this. I mean, it was a single mom. I, you know, when my kids are older at the time, they're still, you know, what I call on my payroll because we're always supporting our kids. But, you know, I also had an opportunity at that time to stop and really reflect. And for me. Being authentic was something that I really struggled with. I'm an HSP, and in a fast moving corporate environment, there isn't always room, uh, for us. It's not always understood. Um, and so I, you know, I I tended to kind of push all of [00:10:00] that aside. Um, and when I had that opportunity to stop, I realized, you know, I really want to take everything I've learned over the last 20 years and bring back. I should mention before I spent 20 years in corporate. I had my own business. I was an entrepreneur for 15 years. Prior to jumping into corporate. And so there was a part of my heart that was like, I can help people, but I want to do it in a way that feels authentic to me. I need to honor that part of myself. And so I embarked on this journey to say, well, where do I go from here? I know a lot of things I've built brands. I've built, you know, marketing teams and, um, and I love so many different aspects of it, but how do I distill that down? To me, you know, going from a team of 15 people to one. And so there was a part of me that was like, how do I even talk about who I am and how I'm different because as a marketer, you know, you do a lot for other people and you're [00:11:00] building on this communication. But I didn't know how to talk about how I was different. And so that felt like, you know, the cobbler's got no shoes scenario where I, you know, I didn't know how to talk about how I was different. And so I embarked on this self, you know, this journey to try to self discovery. And then I stumbled upon, uh, fascinate. And for me, I'm, you know, I'm a junkie of all of the Myers Briggs and StrengthsFinders and Enneagram, like I've done them all and I love them because they've helped me understand who I am from the inside out. But what I loved about Fascinate when I took the test was that it's an outside in perspective. It's how the world sees me when I'm at my best. And when I took it, it I had an aha moment because it helps you understand the languages that you speak when you're in that flow state and you're excited and you're energized like you and I are doing right now. Um, I [00:12:00] am a passion person. So I speak the language of communication and connection. Um, but I'm also. A very, you know, 1 minute, I can be very in tune with somebody in the next minute. I can be a hermit. I can be this very quiet person who's always analyzing a situation. And I always felt that there was something wrong with me. Maybe there's something broken about me that I'm these opposite ends of the spectrum. And as it turns out, it's actually just who I am. And so when I learned that this is who I am, and it's actually my superpower. I was able to kind of start leaning into that a little bit more, not a little bit, a lot more. And I embraced it to the fact, to the point where, you know, the anthem that I created for myself is my guiding, is my guidepost. I, it helps me now distinguish myself and, and lean in and just embrace that I'm different and I'm okay with that now. You know, it was, it helped me understand and [00:13:00] embrace that, that difference. And so now I've incorporated that and it's part of what I do because I, I believe so strongly in, um, giving me the language, giving me the words that I could confidently feel like, yeah, this is really me. And here's how it's me. This is how it really is me. So it's going to be, I feel, yeah, I feel so obviously, you know, with marketing, like we're human and this is very aligned with, with what we're doing here. And And was it also in, in the COVID years that you, uh, came across the Marketing Like a Human program? I remember you reached out to me. I'm like, Oh, a fellow marketer. That is so great that other marketers are interested in, in that work. Was it during that time as well? 100 percent because as I was trying to discover, you know, there has to be a better way. I mean, I was in financial services and I still work in financial services in what I do now on my own, but I get to choose and I [00:14:00] work very purpose driven mission centered businesses. Um, that became really important to me and I didn't really know anybody else. Who felt that way about marketing. It's like, we do really good things and there's, there's a need for what we do. And there's a love of. Building strong brands that are authentic, but I was really searching for a community and a group that felt the same way that I did. And so my research led me to you, um, and you know, I bought your first book and I did your program and I was like, okay, I want to embrace and learn everything there is to know about what's been in my heart, but I haven't really, I've felt like this lone wolf in a sea of, you know, marketers who are all about the bottom line and let's. You know, what are the sales targets and everything? And to me, it didn't feel, that's not me. That doesn't feel like who I am. I care about, you know, doing good work. And I care [00:15:00] about making, you know, achieving results, but it's not what's driving me. What's driving me is how do we do good in the world? And how do we make it? A better place through what we know as marketers. Yeah. I feel like you're a really good poster child for marketing. Like we're human because I mean, really like, you know, 2019 we're now in 2024. That is a. A very short framework for launching a business. And so it just shows me that you gave yourself that deep reflection. And yes, probably the first or two first two years were a bit slow. Right. It's like, okay, who am I? How am I different? How can I be authentic and yet stand out? But. You gave yourself that time and invested in finding out who you are, and now you're bringing that to the table and look at you now, you have a thriving business. I mean, it really shows that [00:16:00] slow and deep really, really works. And I think that's what we want to talk about here a little bit. Like, what, what, you know, why would we even have. Pay attention to, uh, a workshop that's called, um, stand out authentically, right? Most people would just want to stand out, you know, bottom line. It's like, okay, I want to stand out, but we're talking here about standing out and being authentic and being different. So why does that matter to us? And I guess, and also to our clients, why does that matter so much? Yeah, that's a, it's such a great, it's such a great reflection, you know, because for, for most of my career, I did what I thought people wanted from me, you know, and I ignored and pushed down what I was actually thinking or feeling, um, because my value, I thought my value. Was in [00:17:00] what I do for others and the results that I give, but what I had the opportunity to reflect through covid was and do that deeper dive on myself is to understand that that that that was based and coming from a place of fear, not love. And when I've learned to love myself and take that time to sort of say, like, what matters to me, I feel there's this multiplication where I've lived this life that was divided between who I am and what I do. And when I was, when I embraced. Bringing all of that together and authentically being who I am in what I do and what I do. Um, I'm, I'm multiplying. I've gone from being divided to multiply where one plus one now equals three for me and the value that I feel like I add. And I'm attracting people who are more like me or who appreciate what I bring to the table. So [00:18:00] yes, we can all have the same skills. But the satisfaction and the, and the joy that I get from working with somebody who appreciates that authenticity that I bring to the table and sometimes a bit of woo, and sometimes it's a lot of logic and information, and my ability to see a light at the end of the tunnel and get us across the finish line, but I'm doing it with a deeper connection. And so there's just this, I don't know this inner calmness that I have of, of. Feeling like I, by bringing all of who I am to the table, I'm detracting those that don't care about that, which is great. You know, there is somebody out there who is in alignment with that person, but for the person who cares about. That authenticity and the purpose and the why we do what we do, I feel a greater amount of joy. And so my work doesn't feel like work. It's just [00:19:00] making an impact and doing it in a way that just is in alignment with who I am in my soul. Yeah. I think you just described the definition of a humane business that, that it really. That's what it is for me. It's like, yes, it's a business, but it's a business that is aligned with who you are. And so it doesn't feel like work. And at the same time, it feels very joyful to work with clients and, and, you know, do create change. And you, you mentioned that inner calm or inner peace. I think that is such a big part of it. Um, And it's, it's underestimated, like it's undervalued. I feel like, you know, we, we go out there and, and I, I know that a lot of people are like, well, what I need is tactics. What I need is, you know, learn how to be on LinkedIn and publish on LinkedIn. Yes, you need that. As well, what you need first is this, you know, [00:20:00] understand who you are, uh, your values, how you're wired so that you can then come to whatever place you choose to be with this inner, inner peace. And yeah, so let's go back to the, the, this, um, work with fascinate, right? Because that's what we're going to be talking about in the, in the workshop. Um, so tell us a little bit about. You mentioned it's kind of one of the assessments that, um, tells you how the world sees you rather than some of the other assessments like Myers Briggs Enneagram, um, where it comes from how you see the world. Right. So how is this one different and how maybe you can also, uh, share a little bit about Sally, uh, Hogshead who created this whole work and how did you go about finding all of this out? Like, I'm curious about that. Yeah, you know what? It's, it's, um, it's really quite brilliant. So as a marketer, you [00:21:00] know, finding the words and the nuances of how you communicate became a fascination with me, especially because as a child, you know, I was really Um, I was very introverted and, and, um, you know, as an HSP, I didn't, I learned to wall off how I felt and how I communicated, but it also became a fascination for me in my career, you know, going into marketing, um, was something for me that I needed to do for others, what I really struggled to do for myself and. The outside in perspective, when you're with Sally, what I learned, um, as I did my research, um, once I did the test and I was so fascinated by my, by my own results, I dug a little bit deeper and understood that, you know, so Sally was a marketer is a marketer and at heart, she was a very, very successful advertising writer. By the time she was 27, she had, you know, [00:22:00] she, she was one of the most decorated. Advertising writers working with some of the largest corporate brands, and she became really interested in understanding what makes brands so fascinating. It's not the amount of money that they spend. So she undertook to do this research, hired a research company, and they studied hundreds of thousands of brands globally to understand what makes them fascinating. What one brand more fascinating than another. And she Still that together through all this research, they distilled this down to seven languages. And I think it was in a conversation with her husband at the time who said, you know, what if we were able to do this for individuals? What if we were helped? We were able to help people understand leveraging what makes brands fascinating. What if we were able to make them understand what makes them fascinating? And when you fascinate somebody in a world that's filled with, you know, distractions, if you think about. How much time you have to capture someone's [00:23:00] attention. It used to be nine seconds. I think it might be down to three, you know, or two and a half. Yeah. And so if you're going, but when you fascinate somebody, you know, between. Competition. If you're in a business and you've got to get someone's attention, you're trying to get a prospect's attention in a world where commoditization, which is, you know, everything is the same. Think of toilet paper. You go for the cheap. It's a race to the bottom from a price perspective. It's not about value. And then you've got the distractions, how do you get someone's attention? Well, you get their attention by fascinating them. And when they're fascinated, if you think about the times when you're fascinated by something, everything else falls off the planet, you know, and you're totally zoned in and you're focused. And that's what the art of fascination is. But when you can't fake it, This is something you can't fake till you make it right it's, it's innate in you and everybody has one of these. [00:24:00] You know, we all speak these seven languages of the fascinate, um, system or the languages. We all speak them all, but there's two languages and one in particular that when you're speaking that language, you're like in this zone of, I could riff on this all day. I'm in my zone of genius for some people, that's the language of power. And confidence and they come in a room and they just command the room and they, they are the decision makers. And for someone else, it might be about trust and loyalty. They might speak the language of trust, which is that loyal person that, you know, you can always count on others. It's the language of listening and you're that quiet person in the room who's paying attention and people might not think that you're that Even there, like, you know, you're not paying attention and then you drop this bomb of, well, what about this? Because you're analyzing and paying attention to the whole room. And so whatever language you speak, when you're able to speak [00:25:00] that language, you will fascinate those who connect with you on that level. So it creates this deeper connection with people. And by virtue of understanding how you fascinate somebody, Bye. It allows you to be more of who you are, because, you know, you're not trying to be somebody else. You can have the same skills and have gone to the same school, um, and come out, you know, two writers who are equally skilled, but one is going to have a language that is. Is going to connect more deeply with somebody and don't we all want to have a world where we're connecting deeply with people that we get to engage with on a daily basis. So fascinating allows us to do that. Um, and I was so fascinated by it that I actually got certified. Um, because I said, this is part of my toolbox at the time. I was already working on brands and helping businesses build their, their [00:26:00] brands. And for me, being able to bring that to the individual that I work with in a, in a company, it's like, let's understand your language and the language of the people in your team, because. It also helps you create this balance on your team of, you know, you might have somebody who's a really, really good person, really skilled, but if they're in a role where they're not able to speak their language, they might feel like they're in quicksand. You know, alert is the language of details. And for some people that lights them up, the ability to. Cross T's and dot I's and think about the future and think about risk mitigation. For others, it makes them want to gouge their eyeballs out, right? And if you're someone who is in a role that you're passion driven and you need those connections and relationships, but your role requires you to be doing this work that is what we call your, your dormant advantage, your least Engaging and natural language, [00:27:00] you're going to feel like you're, you're in quicksand and you're going to, it's, it's a drains your energy. So why not understand and learn the language that you speak that resonates with other people at the same time. It's going to attract those people to you and you're going to just, you know, you're going to be living a life that feels like you're in a well spring rather than in quicksand. Yeah, totally. Well, as we were preparing for, for the workshop and the podcast, I went back to the, to my tests and I, uh, found out that I first took it in 2014 and back then I was the maverick and I think it was innovation and power. And so, so that was kind of like my first experience with Fascinate and I, and I remember being completely surprised and really realizing. How people see you differently sometimes than you see yourself, [00:28:00] um, because if you look at all the other, um, kind of assessments, the Enneagram and the Myers Briggs, um, so I'm very introverted and very calm and, you know, quiet and, and then I got this word that says power, the maverick. I'm like, what, what is this? Right? This is completely different. And. And yet when I was talking to people, they're like, yeah, that's, that's how we see you. We see you as someone who creates new things and leads a new way. And I'm like, I guess, yeah, I like doing that. Right. I just, I needed to kind of make peace with this idea of power and understanding it as something that I can do quietly. Right. Power doesn't need to be loud. It just needs to be kind of like to me, it's a quiet presence, but that somehow still has the ability to lead. [00:29:00] So I remember that for me, that was life changing and just really accepting that role and saying, okay, yeah, if that's what you want me to do, then I'll step into that role and, and kind of come out of the. The shadow, uh, maybe a little bit as well. So, um, it's funny that you mentioned power because I have almost the opposite. So power is my dormant advantage, but the story about how I named my company, when I started the company, I worked with this brilliant person, um, who I had worked with. For years in my corporate role to help me come up with a name for my business. Together we came up because I wanted my whole premise was I want to be able to empower my. clients to be better marketers and to do it their way, you know, to find a path that is right for you. You don't have to follow the trends. And so we came up with wheeled marketing, put the power [00:30:00] of marketing in your hands. It's not a bad name, but I didn't do anything. I sat on it for a year and this was all before I knew fascinated, didn't know anything about fascinating, but I sat on it for a year. It didn't design a logo. Didn't didn't build a website. Didn't do anything with the name because there was something in my heart that was like, it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. And I did my fascinate. Test. And in my fascinate test, you know, my number one language is passion, which is the language of relationships and connection and intuitiveness and my, and I'll bet, you know, then you've got this waiting of all of seven languages will my dormant, which is my least powerful, um, or effective communication is power. And. I, and I really struggled with this because power, I was a leader in my, in my role for eight and a half years in my last role. I'm like, but I am a leader. [00:31:00] And then I realized power is about that natural ability to come in and dominate a room. And whether you do it quietly or loudly and, you know, making decisions quickly and, and I realized the reason I had been struggling with wield wield is a word that. Is all about power and it didn't sit well in my heart, but I didn't understand why until I did fascinate and as a result of that, I'm like, that's not the name of my company. Then that can't be the name of my business. And so I really did some soul searching and digging and wanted to really bring that that as an HSP and an introvert myself, I wanted to bring that light that shines inside of us and allow people to bring that out. And so I changed the name of my company to the firefly. Effect because the firefly is that is that beautiful little glow that sits inside everybody and the firefly effect because I wanted. To simulate the [00:32:00] butterfly effect where, you know, one little firefly can't maybe doesn't make a big difference, but imagine a whole field of fireflies and how beautiful is that? And so it's, it's about the culmination of bringing, bringing joy and bringing a voice. To everybody and doing it in their own authentic way. So that's where the firefly came from. And I have fascinated to some degree to thank for that. Yeah, but that's what it does for for 1, right? It really helps us with, uh, these words that we can then bring into our marketing. Because like I say in marketing, like we're human because we want to bring more of us to our marketing. So when people ask me, well, how do we learn to be authentic in marketing? Well, there's not like a seven step list, uh, where you can learn that it's, it's going into that deeper inner work. And probably part of it is, is, um, yeah, learning more about these seven languages and then bringing. More of that language [00:33:00] into your messaging. And, um, yeah, that's what we're going to talk about in this workshop on February 7th. So if you're listening to this and this resonates, we'd love for you to join us. Then you can go to the link humane. marketing forward slash workshop and sign up there. Um, I want to wrap up with a question that I feel like is really timely. Because we're talking about authenticity, right? In a time where AI has just developed like crazy over the last, let's say, 9 months. And we know as a fact, it's not going anywhere. Like, well, it's not leaving anytime soon. It's definitely going to develop. So how does something like, Oh, Knowing deeply who we are and, uh, having this language that helps us stand out. How does that help us in a time, um, where, you know, everyone else is using AI and chat GPT. [00:34:00] How can we tap into that system more to, um, yeah, feel like we're being authentic and standing up. That's such a great question. And, you know, building authentic brands is such a big part of what I do. And, um, and, and I'll be honest, I have leveraged AI. I've wanted to learn. I'm like, I need to understand. What everything, you know, all the hype, I need to understand, you know, so that we're not left behind, but I don't use AI to do my writing. I don't use AI to, um, put words in my mouth. What I use AI for, frankly, is to. Um, is to help me do what I don't do as well. So for instance, dice, you know, distilling when I have a great conversation with a client, I can record it on my otter, put it into AI. And help have AI help distill that [00:35:00] down to what are those key points so I can be more present and not feel like I have to take a million notes in a conversation because I'm capturing it and I'm going to leverage AI to help me create, you know, what are these talking points that I need to make sure that I'm including in our, you know, in the brand work or, or. Whatever work I'm I'm working on for that client. So I think there is a way to find out, you know, to leverage the tools that are at our disposal. And I is another tool. The challenges when you're looking at somebody. At somebody's work, it's going to become more evident. In time, and I, you know, that. It's a generate like that. It doesn't feel authentic. It's going to A. I is only pulling from what's already out in the Internet, right? It's not creating something that's from your heart. And so it comes down, I think, to trusting yourself and feeling confident that you're not. It's [00:36:00] not about FOMO. It's not about, um. Looking at, looking around the room and seeing, you know, what am I missing out on? I need to jump on this trend. I need to jump on this trend. I need to be on social media and posting six times a week or five times a week. I don't, I, that I've realized that that for me is, you know, is leveraging what I feel confident and know in my heart based on my languages that I speak, how I'm going to fascinate someone. And trusting that process, I'm still going to leverage and look at it as a tool in my toolbox for myself. And then you have to be discerning when you're looking at other people and trust that the right people are going to find you because authenticity. It's an untapped or an unnamed or a, you know, it's a language that we speak. And when you're being authentic, people [00:37:00] feel that they feel the vulnerability. They feel, they feel the connection. Um, and I think you just have to trust that, that, that that's going to. You know, leverage the tools where they make sense, be, be discerning. And, um, because AI, you're right. AI is not going anywhere. So yeah, I'm finding a way to make it, to bring it into what I need in a way that feels in alignment with my own values, right? I'm not going to use it to do all my writing because it doesn't feel authentic. And, and it would feel disingenuous for me to leverage AI and have it write everything I need to write for myself. Yeah, there's, there's. Something to be said about written text. That's what we use it for or what it's used for right now. But, um, what I feel like this work with Fascinate and knowing your languages also helps us become more [00:38:00] authentic, right? Because we then really tap into who we truly are and embrace that. Side of us where before we're just kind of pulled into every direction. Oh, I should, you know, kind of do whatever selling like they're doing it. And then I'm doing a little bit of this and and it's, it's helping us understand. Oh. No, there, you know, I can really truly be by, be myself, um, when you show up with clients and when you kind of step into that, uh, true version of yourself, I feel like the writing, okay, that's part of it, but it also just helps with the human and how you're going to show up with your clients, right? There are so many of my clients that at the beginning of. A workshop that I would have done with them and they get their assessment and they're like, well, it says that I'm, you know, I'm this, but I'm not this, you know, my one person's [00:39:00] passion was her dormant. And she's like, the name of my company is literally passion, you know, consulting or something. And I said, we went through the process and what I, what she understood was it doesn't mean you're not passionate. And it doesn't, you know, we have a preconceived notion of what these words mean, but when we unpack it, which we do, we unpack it all in, in the, in the workshops that we do, you learn that and you, and we dive into the stories of your life where you start to see that pattern. Of where this has been true. So it's not just words on a page. It actually are. We go back and we look and validate. And at the same time, it helps to provide this beacon for you. We create an anthem. Um, you know, that helps guide you and helps explain to people what you do in a really short like two words. My anthem. After going through this process is illuminating visions and it, and for me, [00:40:00] it's what it's in my e signature. It's everywhere, but it, it has become. When I looked at my past, what lights me up and what excites me are these moments when I've been able to bring somebody else. You know, we have an idea. We bring it to life. We launch a brand. We've, we launch a new product. We, so those are the things like that. Innovation is my why. The passion is, is the, is the, what I, you know, what I do and how I do that is by listening. It's my mystique. It's the listening. So when I understood that about myself, now it helps me to choose and to be selective about what I do going forward. I call it. A bit of a, it's a warm hug and a kick in the gut all at the same time, because it's like, yeah, this is who I am. And it becomes my guide to make sure that I stay on my path and I don't get distracted by these shiny objects along the way. So yeah. And the, and the moments in that I've seen people's, like the lights go on and kind of go.[00:41:00] Oh, you mean this is already who I am. And for some people saying those words feels very egotistical at first, because it's like, well, I can't say that about myself that. And then when we dive in deeper, it's like, but it's already how the world sees you. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about the power. Right. It's like. Oh, but I'm very humble. You know, I grew up very in, in this humble environment. I'm like, ha, I can't say that . But, um, it's like, well, yeah. You know, it's like not me. It's to other people who are seeing it that way. So, yeah. Yeah. And, and that's why I feel like truly yes, ai, you know, is, is part of our path and the direction we're going. And I, I actually feel. There's a very positive side to AI and I'll be writing about that in the, in the business like we're human book, because I do feel like creates more spaciousness for actually [00:42:00] being human and that's part of this. Right? It's like, well, because we have AI for the mundane things, we can then focus on. Actually spending time on figuring out. Well, what is my fascinate language? How can I tap into that and be real? Because that's what we care about is having real conversations with real humans and taking the time to to be human. So I feel like there's a world possible with both being very authentic. And having AI, uh, as, as the, as a tool, like you said, I agree. I think when we have the confidence that, you know, who you are, the tools and all of these other distractions become just that it's a tool that you can add to your toolbox, learn how to use it in a way that feels. Authentic to you that helps you in your business that, um, you know, [00:43:00] saves time, saves energies, you know, and I'm, you know, I'm definitely in that camp where it is a tool and it's a tool that when we use it well, to your point, you end up with this freedom of time. Because something that might've taken me, you know, an hour and a half to distill and go through, I can get it done in 10 minutes now. Right. I can get to that point where I needed to get to in 10 minutes. And then I still apply who I am as an individual, my authentic self to bring that spin or the, you know, the, the, the necessary kind of finishing touches or whatever you want to call it so that it isn't just a cut and paste. You know, it's helping me think of it. I'm thinking of it as another virtual assistant. I actually think it will help a lot of small businesses, especially because, you know, you can do the roles of a number of different people. [00:44:00] So, yeah, I'm so excited. I, uh, um, I really am also excited about this workshop that we have coming up. And what I also feel like we always do well in these collab workshops is that there's part teaching, you know, you're going to share all of your wisdom about the fascinate system. And we also always create space for being human and having these. Exchanges in the breakout rooms. And I think that's really also a big part of the learning, right? It's like, well, actually apply this now and have a conversation about how you are different or how do you feel you're different. So really, really looking forward to that, um, February 7th. Embodiment of of it and that collaboration that that you foster in the humane marketing circle is, is really brilliant because it allows people to take their take your guard down.[00:45:00] This is a, you know, this is a real humane group of people who are all gathered because we have a very, um, similar approach. To life, you know, not just work, but life. And this is one aspect of it that, um, it's freeing. It's, um, you know, it is, it is really like giving yourself permission to be more of who you are. And Sally has this theme that runs throughout that I absolutely love, which is different is better than better, you know, when you think about it. You already, you know, be more of who you already are, because that's what's going to make you feel good. And it's what's going to attract the people who appreciate that beauty that you bring to the world and that uniqueness. Um, and, you know, it's like, give yourself permission to be that person. So. Can't wait. Thank you so much for sharing here on the podcast. And again, if you're listening to this before February 7th, [00:46:00] definitely sign up and we look forward to seeing you there and we'll look forward to it. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you, Louise. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you got some great value from this episode. Make sure to find out more about Louise and her work at FireflyEffect. ca. And of course, for even more value, join us for the workshop on February 7th at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. The suggested price is 27. But you can also just make a donation and if you like the people and style of this gathering, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? That's how we roll. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. You'll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 8 1. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free [00:47:00] offers, the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books. Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00] [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] [00:53:00] [00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00]
46:59 1/26/24
Who is Sarah Santacroce, in Life and in Business?
Welcome back to the Humane Marketing podcast with me, Sarah Santacroce, where we support a business approach that resonates with today's conscious clients through humane, ethical, and non-pushy practices. In this special solo episode, I thought I’d reintroduce myself and share a bit more about who I am. The whole human. So I share a little bit about my personal self but also talk about my work and specifically my different offerings, including my 1-on-1 Conscious Business Coaching, my programs and our . I'll also offer a sneak peek into my upcoming third book around the topic of Being Human in Business. Let's embark on this journey together, creating a space where business thrives with heart and soul. Points I talk about: Who I am, personally and professionally The three main focuses in my life’s work (my 1-on-1 coaching, my programs and our community) The 3rd book about Business Like We’re Human The direction of this podcast this year And much more... Ep 180 transcript Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded. Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop. To hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and Sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. Welcome back, friends, and happy 2024, may it be filled with many small and many big significant moments, moments of laughter, inspiration, and lots of magical Little moments, today's conversation fits under the P of personal power of the seven P's of humane marketing. And if you're a regular here, well, thanks for being back in 2024. You [00:03:00] already know that I'm organizing the conversations here around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if this is your very first time here. Big warm welcome, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's humane. Dot marketing forward slash the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business to create this marketing foundation that is ethical and aligned with your values. So, I thought I'd use this first episode of the year to do a solo episode and maybe a bit of a reminder about who I am and what I stand for. Some other podcasters have done that [00:04:00] and reminded me to do it. So since I usually have interviews, right yeah. Yeah, it's not my favorite thing to talk about myself, but here I am. I I'm looking forward to sharing a little bit about my work, a little bit about me as a person. And then also at the end about the next book that I'm currently working on or nudging myself to work on. I have to be honest. It's, it, the outline is more or less there, but I haven't started writing yet. So that's the plan for this episode. I'll also give you kind of a heads up of what's coming for the podcast. Some of you may already know me a little bit from reading my books, marketing like we're human or. Selling like we're human or maybe you're even a member of the Humane Marketing Circle community. And that's definitely the place where I. I just show up as my, you know, [00:05:00] true self, and you definitely then know quite a bit about me. If so, well, then you know that I'm a Swiss born, but global citizen mother of two young adult boys, I'm an empath, and I bring a unique blend of perspectives to the table. So on the. Personal side, I'm an INFJ. So that's from the Myers Briggs, right? I'm very introverted, but I'm also very people oriented. That's what the last two letters stand for. So I call myself the mama bear of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. And I would say that has to do with the INFJ. So I feel very. caring and empathic towards the members of the community and my clients and anybody that I, I come across. So while I'm introverted and I need a lot of [00:06:00] recharging the batteries time, I also very much enjoy people, especially people who have put up their hand and said, Hey, I want to be, you know, in your inner circles. I want to be spending more time with you. So INFJ, I'm also an. HSP, so that stands for highly sensitive person, and that is a character trait. And I was so relieved when I found out that that's just how I'm wired. I experienced the world more deeply. I feel a lot, and that can sometimes be quite honestly, a bit of a pain because, well, yeah, it's, it's. It's not always easy to feel everything, to feel a room, to feel the energy of the world in general. And then of course, especially feel the, the energy of my close people, my family, but also my clients. So while it comes with a lot of good things, such as A lot of intuition and [00:07:00] just knowing what people need and all of that. It also has some of the things that sometimes keep me from sleeping or keep me from just tuning out those kind of things. So I already said I'm an, I'm an introvert. So those three things really yeah. Kind of describe me. Well you know, we sometimes have this. Kind of thought about not wanting to use labels, but I feel good about these three Acronyms INFJ, HSP, and Introvert. They, they fit me. So I really use both my creative intuition as well as my practical wisdom to make a difference in the business world. I'm also a Capricorn from the astrology side. So very, very practical, very pragmatic, very down to earth. And I'm a cancer rising. So again, that's the care. That's the, the motherly aspect. That's [00:08:00] like just, you know, empathic aspect. So I do feel like I have found a way to be in business where, you know, I can really use all of me, all of who I am to bring all of that to, to what I'm offering. So. Besides that, I'm also very interested in all kinds of different woo woo things, such as, I mentioned it, astrology, I got introduced to it through my mom, who still does a reading for me each year at my birthday. She just kind of studied it as a, as a side thing. She was an astrologer, and that's kind of the same approach I have. I don't feel like I want to go and study astrology but I do want to understand it for me, for my close people, my family as well as my clients. It always helps me when they tell me, you know, what, which birth sign they are. And also human [00:09:00] design, because that's the next thing that I discovered and just really loved it. And I use that as well in my programs, the Marketing Like We're Human program, as well as my one on one clients to help them discover their own personal power. Personal power is the second P of humane marketing, where we really figure out, well, how are we wired so that we can find our own unique way of, business, but also just in general, how to be in business. I've always practiced yoga, but since COVID, I really do it religiously every morning. It's become part of who I am. So I start the day with, with that. I love yoga with Adrian for that on YouTube. So if you don't know yoga with Adrian, Have a look at that. It's just she has so many different videos. It's all free. And yeah, I love her style. She's kind of quirky and funny, but it's also very professionally [00:10:00] done. So the sound is good. It's just perfect. So that's what I do in the morning. And then at lunch, I also have a new practice, which is yoga nidra. which is a type of guided meditation, which works better for me than meditation. I tried meditation many years and always felt like I'm doing it wrong. It's not for me. So yeah, guided meditation. So the yoga nidra for just a deep relaxation of the body feels better for me Because I'm so much in my mind, I feel like, okay, focusing on the body and with this guided meditation and yoga nidra is what I found that works for me, right? It's all about finding a practice that works for us. And so if meditation is not. the thing that works, we'll go and find something else. I'm also a big fan of alternative medicines such as Ayurveda, which I've discovered what, [00:11:00] probably three, four years ago kind of going into perimenopause and now menopause, just kind of like finding a different way to look at Our, yeah, our health, our body, our nutrition. So just really loving that approach. And I've always been interested in how other cultures see the mind and the body connection. And so. Yeah, to me, it's just fascinating to follow someone else's approach to medicine, right? Yes, traditional medicine has definitely has saved my husband for once for one and, and, you know, it's, it's doing a lot of good in the world and there's Some things where alternative medicine works just as well. So Ayurveda is one, flowers of Bach is another one that I've also learned from my mom and, and sometimes forget about it. But whenever I think of it, I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm going [00:12:00] to go back to the flowers of Bach. I love essential oils. And yeah, so, so many things I could list here. I'm just all about experimenting and seeing, oh, yeah, that really works for me. So, I also book time in my day, most days, to go for an hour walk outside. I started walking with a dog, not our own dog. We travel, we love traveling too much to own a dog. But I started walking in a dog in, The neighboring town and really love that otherwise once per week I walk with my friend Barbara and another time with another friend. So yeah, really walking and being outside is a big part of me. I'm lucky to live five minutes from Lake Geneva and two minutes from a forest with a little river. So nature really has this healing effect on my Overstimulated mind, which is why I build a lot of spaciousness into my days. I did mention our [00:13:00] boys, but I just. I think it's, it's an important part of my life still, you know, they're 17 and 20. So still very much a mom even though they're now mainly living their own lives, they are still living at home or at least sleeping at home for the older one, Simon. And yeah, it's a big part of my holistic being, right? There's this work side of me, but then there's also the Family side of me, which I, I love that I've over the years built a business that really has the space to be all of me and has the space to have me spend time with the boys as they're I As they were smaller and have them grow up in a home where they come back and I'm on calls and and then can Spend time with them and do homework and all of that. So yeah over the [00:14:00] years that's been really important for me and still is but now they you know, they spread their wings and Need us less and less. So So that's me in a nutshell on the personal side. So on the professional side, I started my first business in 2007, 2008, and have run a LinkedIn consultancy over 12 years. So helping companies and individuals with LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, social selling, LinkedIn profiles. A lot of LinkedIn profile reviews, which I still offer as a service. It's a small LinkedIn profile video review. So a review of someone's profile in video format. And people really love that because it's a. relatively small investment and yet they get my expert advice on their profiles. So [00:15:00] that's something I still do. I also still offer a LinkedIn profile done for use. So someone who wants me to write their LinkedIn from A to Z, that's a service I still offer, but I don't give any trainings anymore, no more workshops. This is all the things that I used to do in companies, but also with individual clients. I did that over 12 years. And then a few years ago, I completely pivoted away from that business. And now I'm doing three main things in the realm of humane marketing. So first The thing that I'm offering is I'm a conscious business coach for changemakers to help them create their life's work and let the world know about it. I also run my two flagship programs, the Marketing Like We're Human program that has been running since 2019 and is coming up again in March 2024. It's a program for heart centered entrepreneurs [00:16:00] and changemakers to create their marketing foundation. And then a new program I launched last November. For the business book alchemist program for renegade authors to help them write their change making book. So a book about change. I won't be running that one again until November. So it's kind of an end of the year program. And then I'll basically create a community, a small community group, an accountability group to really stay accountable and help each other write the book during their year. So if you have a book in you keep that in mind for this November, which seems very far right now, since we just started the year, I do also work with clients one on one on their book together with that. program that I've created a video program for. So if you're in a hurry and would like my one on one support, then that's [00:17:00] something we can look at as well. So that's the Business Book Alchemist program. And then finally, I also host our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, which is a think tank for humans who want to market their business. And I tell you a bit more about that in a minute. So my clients and members on, of the community always say that I give them permission to be themselves in their business. And I really think that's true. There are no masks in our community and we really are being real and as the. Mama bear of our group. I lead and show up with vulnerability and share my own struggles so that it creates that safe space to, to be real. And people really appreciate that because I guess there's so much. Unrealness out there in the world that it feels like a safe haven to, to come to and, [00:18:00] and learn together and share about marketing like we're human. I love to work with change makers who are somehow involved in this paradigm change that we're currently in. So for me, there is really no more business as usual. If I hear someone say business as usual, I just cringe, or if I just. See LinkedIn posts about business as usual. I was like, no, you gotta wake up. There is no more business as usual. We are the ones that we've been waiting for. So this is the time that to not do business as usual anymore. Because yeah, we are the change makers. We have so much. Need for change right now. So many, so many systems that need to be changed and also just our own relationship to business and work. And I'll tell you more about that when I talk about the book. So as you know, I chose to [00:19:00] focus on changing and revolutionizing the way we market and sell in our businesses, but to me, that is just. My focus, right? Because that's the field I know best, but in all honesty, it's much bigger than that. And I'm really deeply interested in a complete systems change. So if we're going to save this planet and our humanity, then we need to stop doing what we've done until now and start reinventing business. Maybe we don't even call it business anymore because. Business reminds me of capitalism, and that is one system that is broken for sure. So in my one on one work, I support change agents who are aware of this paradigm shift and contribute to it with their work. So either by working with individuals or with companies, this could be organizational change work, or [00:20:00] leadership work, or mindset work, or climate oriented work. Sustainability work, right? Or working in some other way to help humanity, but it all has to do with change from within. So if you know the seven Ps of humane marketing, you can see how Inner change is very aligned with my framework because in humane marketing, we also start with ourselves. Another framework that starts from within and that I've started to get involved in locally and globally are the inner development goals. So they are the skills that have been kind of, I guess, with collective intelligence gathered to. Achieve the Sustainable Development Goals in a workshop called Humane Marketing for Changemakers. I've integrated this framework with my approach to humane marketing. [00:21:00] And if you know or run a community who would be interested in having me teach this workshop, please reach out to me. I'd love to come and teach that for free. So yeah, just kind of like looking at change that we need. And the other thing is that we need to think about what is it outside, right? That we need in our world as a thing that we need to change within ourselves first. So as you can tell, personal development is, is like a big thing for me having gone through it myself, then writing about it in the Marketing Like We're Human book, then applying that in the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator program, and also Very much practicing it with my one on one clients. It is the thing that we need right now in order to create outer change. Is this inner change first? So yeah, I love helping change makers, finding their messaging and sharing their gifts. And [00:22:00] often they are people like myself who find themselves at a pivotal point, either coming out of a corporate job or. pivoting in their own business because they feel the calling to contribute to the paradigm shift. So they feel like they've just been running a business as usual kind of business for the last few years and feel like they need to Step into something bigger because now is the time now is the time to really use the gifts that they've been given in order to contribute and make a bigger change, realizing that business as usual, given all our current challenging is just not for them anymore. So that's the one on one work that I love doing. So let me talk a little bit about our community. The community. Humane Marketing Circle, and after that I'll end with some heads up about the topic of my third book that [00:23:00] I'm currently working on and what I'm going to be sharing on this podcast as well. Actually, instead of me talking about the circle, our community, let me read you the most recent testimonial I've received from a member, Katica. I haven't had time yet to put it up, but I'll read it here. So she says, I stumbled into the humane marketing circle seeking a community that resonated with my values and approach to business. What I found was beyond my expectations. It's a gathering of diverse souls, each bringing unique expertise and perspectives. Here, it's not about hosting workshops by renowned experts. It's about sharing. Learning and growing together. The co creation aspect is remarkable. It's not just about attending events, but actively participating in shaping them. The recent Humane Marketing Circle Expo was a testament to this collaborative spirit. It's not just about self [00:24:00] promotion. It's about lifting each other up. What truly sets this circle apart is the emphasis on people. Not just, not just as members, but as individuals with stories, experiences, and knowledge to share. Being highlighted in the podcast wasn't a mere promotional tactic. It was an acknowledgement of our expertise and the celebration of our unique journeys. The value here is immense. It's not just about. Collaboration for events, but the organic growth and visibility that stem from it. The environment allows for organic networking and more importantly, it fosters a culture of ethical marketing where pushy tactics have no place. I've barely scratched the surface and already I've delved into topics like HSP, human design and referral marketing. All things to engaging with this community. What's truly special is that all members here are aligned with. in values, creating a [00:25:00] harmonious space where ethical marketing is the norm. The Humane Marketing Circle isn't just a community. It's a safe haven for like minded individuals to grow, learn, and make a difference in business, one conscious step at a time. I think that really sums up nicely what our community is like. There's about 40 of us right now. And while we'd love to grow, we are also Making very sure that the quality of the relationships doesn't suffer, because that's what we're most proud of, a community that is interrelated. Every active member has ties to other members, not just me. So, if this is the kind of community you'd love to get involved in, in this year, 2024. Learn from, and also share your experience with. We'd obviously love to have you. I'm currently redesigning a new landing page for the community with some different longer term pricing options. But right now you can still [00:26:00] join us at humane. marketing forward slash circle at the monthly rate of 37 per month. And, yeah, we'd love to have you. And finally, let me share some of my thoughts around this third book that I'm planning to work on this year. I've always had plans to have three books, so the marketing, the selling, and the business in general. That's kind of how my website was set up as well, with the three different colors. Marketing is green, selling is earth red, and business is blue. So, this third book is about business and work in general. Right now, the working title is something like Being Human and Running a Business, or just Business Like We're Human, to follow from the other two titles. And the subtitle for now is The Changemaker's Path to Redefining Our Relationship to Work and Finding Inner Peace to [00:27:00] Create Outer Change. So yeah. No more business as usual. Basically, I'll be writing about redefining business and work so that it doesn't define us, but we define it. And our work contributes to our own conscious well being and the well being of our planet. That's what I feel like work should be for and topics are going to be including how we got here, like the story from basically starting in the industrial revolution to today and kind of like highlighting, well, you know, What's wrong with that today? It might've worked back in the industrial revolution, but, you know, we have evolved, our consciousness hasn't evolved. And yet we are still defined by the way we think about work. From back then. Another topic is [00:28:00] reimagining a different way of making a living or making a life. Creating more spaciousness to be and to focus on things that truly matter to ourselves but also to the collective. The path to recalibrate our relationships and work so that we are ready for the new way of doing business like we're human. And then also tackling the topic of What AI has to do with all that. So artificial intelligence, how does that have or impact the way we work and how us humans can use AI to help us so that we can work less and be more human. And actually focus on taking care of our world and each other. So collaborating with I, instead of saying, well, no, that's just not human. So it's not good. Humans, our [00:29:00] main reason for being is not to work. We made that up in the Industrial Revolution, right? So what is our main reason for being human or what makes us human? So big questions like that. And I'll share some bonus episodes here on the podcast with updates of what I'm writing, conversations I'm having, and and more. And in addition to those bonus episodes, I'll also keep my usual schedule of two episodes per month. So one on a business and marketing topic and another one with a change maker I personally want to learn from. And I'm sure you'll be inspired as well. So yeah, that's what I have for today. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping a future where business is a force for good, where we market and sell like we're human. You can find out more about anything that I've shared [00:30:00] here on my website at humane dot marketing. If you want to find out more about the community, that's humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And you find the show show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 0. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself. Your clients and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:31:00] [00:32:00]
32:04 1/12/24
Becoming with Renée Lertzman
In this week’s episode, I chatted with Dr. Renée Lertzman, a renowned psychological researcher shaping climate change action through psychology and sustainability. We discussed the theme 'Becoming' and its impact on societal shifts towards sustainable practices and also explored the transformative power of personal change for a more humane business world and the vital role of community in this journey. Renée shared challenges faced by leaders guiding transformations and her nuanced approach to caring in Humane Marketing. In this episode, Renée and I talk about: How do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone? Why is being part of a community important for personal and collective positive transformations? What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through transformative journeys? In Humane Marketing, caring means more than just concern. Renee explains her approach to caring. And more insights for our listeners who are Changemakers before they are marketers Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. Dot marketing. Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to this last episode in 2023. Today I'm speaking to Rene Lertzmann about the P of personal power. If you're a regular here and you've been with me all of this time this year, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing [00:03:00] plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of Marketing at humane. That's the number one and the word page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. It really is that one page marketing plan where you. Reflect deeply about all the different P's in your business. Today's conversation, as I said, fits under the P of personal power. And I speak to Renee Lertzman about the topic of becoming. So let me tell you a bit more about Dr. Renee Lertzman. She's an internationally recognized psychological researcher and thought leader. Working to make an impact on climate change with tools that organizations can use to engage, mobilize, and connect with diverse populations. By blending scientific approaches into strategies that will be [00:04:00] impactful on the environmental challenges, Rene shows that combining the disciplines of psychological Psychology with environmental science can aid in the path of big changes. A native of Northern California, Renée has had more than 20 years of experience as a pioneer, bridging psychological research and sustainability. She integrates behavioral social Social and Innovative Design Sciences to Create a Dynamic Approach to Social Change. She holds a Master's Degree in Environmental Communications from the University of North Carolina and a PhD from the Cardiff School of Social Sciences at Cardiff University, UK. In our conversation today, we talked about how do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone? Why is being part of a community important for personal [00:05:00] and collective positive transformations? What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through this transformative journey? In humane marketing, caring means more than just concern. And Renee explains to us her approach to caring. And there's also more insights for our listeners who are change makers before they are marketers. So let's dive in and listen to this episode with Renee Lertzmann. Hi, Renee. So good to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Good Renee: to be here. Thank Sarah: you. Um, um, yeah, humane marketing and becoming, uh, all of these topics that you talk about in your work are very much in line with what we're talking about here, this idea of marketing from within. Um, so really starting with ourselves. So, [00:06:00] um, how do you see these personal transformations on this? Individual level, then translating into something that is bigger, you know, that is part of the collective and maybe even the business part, um, let's dive right in there. Renee: It's a small question. Um, well, that's a profound question that I experienced to be, uh. You know, innately, it takes me into the terrain of psychology, which is, you know, obviously my training and my background, um, which is the, the psyche. Um, how do we, um, process, you know, uh, information, our experiences in ways that. Um, can support our ability to act in new and different ways. Um, so I guess I would just say that [00:07:00] there and I mentioned this in my Ted talk where, um, there's no way around it. You know, that there's no way around the inner and the outer and I remember giving the talk on stage and ad libbing a little bit, which you're not supposed to, but I remember making this statement that said, basically, um, our inner world and our inner life is directly influencing how we are in the world and what we do. And then I made this comment, I'm sorry, but there's no way around it. And that is to say, you know, we'd like to think that we can do a lot of work in the world, um, you know, by focusing on our actions or, you know, um, our tactics, our strategy, but in actuality, as you know, um, everything we do is an expression of our [00:08:00] inner world and ourself, which is obviously influenced by, You know, um, our social context, our geography, our demographic, our personal biography, our circumstances, our proclivities, our personality, um, our inherent kind of essence, all of that is, is coming together. Um, and the work, you know, the, the, the work in the world of, you know, ushering in and supporting life. Affirming and life supportive systems for the planet. Um, I see relying on our ability as human beings to, um, level up to, to become more conscious, to become more, um, capable of coming from a place of intention and choice versus unconscious [00:09:00] habits. Defaults, um, fear, you know, all of that. So my reframe that I encourage is that the circumstances that we're facing in our world is an opportunity. It's an invitation and in a lot of ways, a requirement for us as human beings to, uh, evolve. Um, and, and by that, I mean, really, really evolve into our, like, higher selves, our highest good, the higher part. That humans are capable of, that's how I see it. So, you know, unless we put attention and intention to our own wounds, our own trauma, our own, um, stuff that each human being has, we all have it, you know, there, there, [00:10:00] those that has to be side by side with how you show up with a team as a leader, with your marketing strategy. Because if there's, you know, whatever is there will come through. So if I'm coming from a place that I've learned the hard way, if I am coming from a place of fear, of, um, you know, anxiety, of depth, of scarcity. Even a beautifully designed campaign somehow that will come through and so it's sort of on me to practice diligence around that. Yeah, I love Sarah: that. And you work a lot in the sustainability field and that applies there, right? That you have to first do this inner work in order to then help the other and help. [00:11:00] Organizations, you know, pay more attention to climate crisis and et cetera. Um, and it applies like you just demonstrated also in a business and marketing sense, because when I 1st looked at marketing, um. Well, when I had my own little crisis and said, well, I can't do this anymore. There's just no integrity in this. Um, I looked at how marketing is usually presented as something outwards, right? It's out there and you just have to somehow fit into that mold in order to be that person that you're supposed to be, um, in this marketing realm. And, and that I just realized, well, that is not working for me anymore. It has to be, uh, according to who I am and my worldview and my values. And so the kind of like the, the consciousness that, um, needs to evolve is also needs to happen on the marketing, [00:12:00] um, side. Especially because I think so much that we see out there is, you know, people have gotten such a bad experience with marketing. Everything is lies. We can't trust a marketer. And so the people who are then kind of went to authentic marketing. Uh, we still realized, well, not everything that they say is authentic marketing was actually authentic because they hadn't done that in their work, right? So it, it really, I see these parallels between also what you talk about this anxiety and scarcity. Well, yeah, if we come from this scarcity mindset that we feel like, well, there's not enough, I need to hustle to get these clients, clients feel it. Renee: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's where the inner work comes in. You don't, you can't just will yourself or say, okay, I'm going to not do that anymore. You have to really, um, cultivate the conditions somehow [00:13:00] to, to, um, Explore and be with what is happening for you and ideally have support, some resourcing to do that. Um, the only thing I would just say is I don't think it's like we have to do the inner work first before we do work in the world. It's it's it's they, they are inseparable and I get kind of tired of this, you know, binary, well, binaries in general are still very alive and active out there. Right. Hope versus despair. Um, you know, inner versus outer. Um, it's, it's like, that's just not how reality is. And so when, when people, when our stakes are high and we're under stress, that's precisely when we tend to go into binary thinking. Right. And so it's just important to recognize that. Um, it's not the inner or the [00:14:00] outer. It's not inter first, then outer, you know, and again, this goes back to what we already know, whether you look at neuroscience or whether you look at trauma research, or whether you look at contemplative practice, um, that it's, it's, there's a lot of healing that is available. By the act of doing and, and engaging with some sort of practice, like writing something or doing something in the community or launching a business. Right? That's literally grist for the mill for our learning and practice and development. So, you know, me doing my work with clients, you know, it's, it's an opportunity to grow always. It's a, it's a. That that is the work that is the practice, you know, Sarah: I feel like oftentimes the people who come to me, they had to go through the things that are not working for them in order to figure out, well, this is not working for me [00:15:00] anymore. And so now I'm ready for a different way. Yeah, I feel that's often the case Renee: right that's what that is the human experience I think. Yeah, there's just no shortcuts. Yeah, it's like literally learning by what isn't working and paying attention to this isn't feeling good This isn't working for me. Okay. Now, what does that mean? What do I want to do about that? I could stay there or I can you know get in touch with where my desire is where my Joy is where I feel Energy and called towards, but we can only get there. Unfortunately, by the pain of this is not feeling good. This is not working. I'm having a crisis. I need to leave my job. I need to quit this industry. I might need to move countries, you know, I'm, I'm like, like, there's usually people get to a certain point where they're just like. The, the misalignment is too big for me to tolerate right [00:16:00] now, or I have to leave a relationship who, you know, a lot of people are in partnerships where maybe they've come to a place of awakening and the partner or family member isn't there, you know, like that's very real and that happens a lot too. So, you know, I'm, I'm just normalizing. The experience of, oh, this isn't working. Okay. Then what do I need to do differently? And what will support me? Because it's really important. People. Recognize we need support. Um, Sarah: exactly. Let's talk about the support because I remember when I 1st went through my breakdown. I didn't feel like there was people who understood what I was trying to do and what I was even talking about. They're like, what's wrong with marketing? Marketing is fine. You know, this is just how business works. Business is business. And, and I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be, but I didn't feel [00:17:00] like any, anybody understood. Right. Yeah. And so that makes you feel very lonely and wrong. You're constantly questioning yourself. Yeah. And so then slowly. Yeah. I started to change my people. I'm like, okay, well this is not supporting me. Yeah. So, uh, and, and in that workshop that I just followed with you, um, it was a small group of women in change. Yeah. And you, at the be very beginning, you said, this is what matters. Small groups like this is what matters. Right. So, so yeah. What, what is the role of community in this transformation? Renee: Well, um, this is something I. I feel very strongly about and I am starting to write and focus on more and more. In fact, it might end up being my primary focus, which is the role of convening and curation. So my, you know, just to zoom back. I have a project called project inside out, which was started by a grant from the care foundation. [00:18:00] Um, and I was asked to put together some online tools and resources that take a lot of my work and kind of bring it together into some tools that anyone can access and use. And so, in doing that, I kind of formulated this idea that. What we need to be doing is guiding and not driving change. And so it's an attempt to do an intervention. And, um, and so we came up with these guiding principles of guiding, you know, and a, and a main, a primary role of that is to be a convener. And so I, um, the organizations, the clients I work with and more generally. You know, in my kind of work in the world, I'm, I'm basically telling people that if you are an organization, if you have a business, if you have an [00:19:00] enterprise, it's your role now to be more of a convener and together and to take that responsibility very seriously. And that means as a curator, you have to be also attentive to your own, what we were just talking about, like your own development, your own, um, integrity. Because when you're a convener, it's a responsibility, um, but my point is that, um, it's in the context of relationship and usually small groups that a lot of transformation can happen. And so, and I'm not, I didn't just sort of come up with this. This is like, incredibly well established. You know, there's a book called pro social that talks about the research, you know, like, in a very specific way. Like, if you have this number of people, you know, I think it's 8 to 12 people and you bring people together over [00:20:00] duration. Like, you know, we already kind of know this. And I was doing this work in 2001, um, an experiment. Using online dialogue where we put people into small groups online and kind of had them together over time. No facilitation, but we had a certain methodology where people, you know, introduce themselves and, you know, but the, that context was specifically about charged hot button issues, social issues, and it worked like amazingly people did not devolve into fighting because we created these conditions. That enabled people to really listen to each other and be, feel heard and learn and kind of have that exchange. So we already know a lot about what works. Um, so what I'm suggesting is we go back and look at what actually works. To support people through transformation that human societies have been doing since the beginning. [00:21:00] So, again, I'm not suggesting this is anything new. I'm saying that human wisdom practices and, you know, if you look at council, the council and indigenous cultures, and you look at circles and you look at, like, humans have had this practice of coming together in hard times, ideally. Not always it's how functional and healthy the society is to say, Hey, we need to look at what's going on. And then, like, people just naturally need to get together to kind of make sense, debate, argue, you know, have that kind of exchange that can support a different. Way or perspective, but you're also getting a lot of support. So, yeah, it's so Sarah: interesting. Um, if I may, um, just make the parallel again to the business and marketing world, right in business and marketing, everything we ever hear is go big, go scale or go home. And, you know, you need to be an [00:22:00] influencer and then numbers is what matters most. And, and so here you are saying, well, actually. No, not necessarily go back. You know, uh, small is beautiful. Um, more intimate, the deeper the connection. Yeah. And so that Renee: is scalable. It audio1097513299: is Sarah: scalable at the same time. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Renee: Like, I mean, people ask me, well, how do you scale this? It sounds very long and slow and relational. And I, Well, have you heard of the 12 step movement? I kind of think that's very successful and it's very, uh, talk about scale. It's completely global and the methodology is literally Holding space for people to come together and primarily just tell their stories with each other. And then, you know, you've got all the spiritual principles. It's very regimented. It's very structured, but I'm just saying, I'm not saying we all need to have [00:23:00] 12 step groups. I'm saying that small group interactions are scalable if you're a skillful convener. And so any company I'm working with. They're going to know I'm going to recommend this. It's not a surprise. It's sort of like, you know, if you bring someone in and have someone has their thing. It's like, okay, we know pretty much what's going to be recommended. Renee is going to say that. I'm going to say you need to approach your work in an organization by leveraging the people within it. To hold and facilitate small groups. Yeah, I love that. Train people and support people to learn the skills of convening small groups. Yeah. That to me is the number one skill right now that we are needing and that often people don't have. And, you know, if anyone listening is a facilitator, you know how hard it is. And how, uh, like [00:24:00] it really is. Um, a very, you know, nuanced kind of thing, uh, to learn and any, and I believe we can learn it, but in order to be a facilitator, it goes right back to how do we cultivate the capacity, you know, to really be present because the ability to hold space and be facilitator requires that you have to get out of your, you have to step back. You can't dominate. You know, we've all been in settings where people are like. Dominating, they're talking too much. Um, so, you know, that's, that's where I go with this is how do we foster, create the conditions for more people to connect with each other in more intimate ways, but also look at how we can scale that. Sarah: I love that. Yeah. I did a year long program called holding space and it really came from that idea of, well, how do you hold space for yourself? So [00:25:00] that was the first module of. I can't remember, four months or something. And then how do you hold space for others? And, and especially there was also a module, how do you hold space for grief, right? So, yeah. And so do you feel like we kind of met through the inner development goals? Um, do you feel those inner development goals skills help with this idea of holding space for Renee: others? Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, the IDG is a, you know, it's a very simple, elegant framework that I see as a reminder of what we need to be doing. Right. Uh, being, thinking, relating, acting and collaborating. So, you know, all of those are interrelated because in order to be a skillful collaborator, you need to have being in order to be a skillful thinker. You need, you know what I mean? They all kind of. Relate to 1 another, but, um, to me, the [00:26:00] power of the is mainly as a. In vocation to say, hey, we need to look at our skills as human beings, like how we from a developmental perspective and how you do that. It doesn't matter to me, you know, like, there can be a community literally in Nigeria, which I do know of, and they're doing all kinds of unbelievable work. That's strengthening people's capacity to show up, hold space, but they don't need to call it IDG, you know, it's like, it's basically human wisdom and human practice. Yeah, it really Sarah: is. There's one more topic I'd like to address and it's this idea of caring, um, in humane marketing. I say humane marketing is for the generation that cares for ourselves, our clients and the planet. So what does caring look like for you? Because you seem to have a bit of a nuanced way to caring and it obviously relates to [00:27:00] sustainability as well. So talk to us about caring. Renee: That's a great question. And it is the topic of the book I'm working on right now, which is literally called a field guide for people who care. I love that. So, you know, basically the way I approach care is, um, that care is, our care is a very fragile, it's very fragile and sensitive and sort of, you know, that, that each one of us as human beings. Have profound capacity to care about whatever, you know, about life, about other people, about ourselves, about, you know, animals or plants or, you know, like the expression of care. I think we need to, um, kind of unleash our. Limits on what care is, what isn't, what it [00:28:00] looks like. And the reason why is because I spent 30 years in the environmental sustainability and climate sector, hearing people around me constantly saying, Oh, well, people don't care because if they cared, they would do something about it. And I absolutely disagreed, but I didn't know why. And so that's why I ended up spending all this time doing research and, you know, interviewing people and all this stuff, because I. I suspected that wasn't accurate. And what I found through talking with lots of people around the world is obviously people care very deeply. And I don't care what your condition is. I mean, seriously, I don't care if you are living on the street and you, you are preoccupied with your own basic survival. As a human being, you care about being alive. You care about often, um, others and animals and, [00:29:00] you know, like, so there is a fundamental care that's there that is expressed. Some people care deeply about ocean reefs. Some people care deeply about a microbe. Some people care deeply about. Knitting, I'm just like, whatever, but my point is that if we feel like, you know, there's something that's interfering with our ability to express that care, we will retract it. We will pull it back in and it will kind of go underground or it will get trans trans. It'll get applied in other ways. Like people I would interview in the Midwest United States would tell me all the environmental issues. They cared very deeply about and then they would say, but there's not a whole lot. I can do about it. So I'm going to focus instead on my garden and my family and what I eat, you know, because those things I have control over right now. Does that mean. That that person doesn't care [00:30:00] about the, the water in the region. And so that's where I'm, what I'm saying. We've got to shift our, um, miss. About care, you know, that somehow if you care, you're going to do something about it. The question is, how do we. Unlock and kind of access people's care by affirming, yes, of course we see you and we know that you care very deeply. Now let's figure out how we can help you express that. That as a marketing strategy is the goal. That's it. That is the marketing strategy is literally, it is communicate with people as if they already care. Like that's it. There's my book. There's your campaign. Just go for it. Sarah: I love that. Yeah, it's not assuming nobody cares, but on the, on the opposite, it's assuming they care. And I guess also what you said is like, well, [00:31:00] figuring out what they deeply care about, because when I talk about the SDGs with in programs or things like that, I always say, well, Obviously, yes, they're all important topics, right? We can all agree to that, but not everybody, not each person cares about the same things very deeply. And so, you know, there is this difference also about what we care about, um, more than others. And so, um, yeah, figuring that out and talking to Renee: those ones. The movement has got to get more sophisticated and nuanced right as soon as possible because it's very simplistic right now, and I will just say, especially. Those working in marketing and brand strategy, no offense, but there's just a pervasive way of thinking and working. That's no longer appropriate for the time we're in now, which is that we've got to be more [00:32:00] nuanced and much more attuned. And much more relational to what people care about, why and how and, and just like go right there, which is again, bringing in that, like you just said, like, here's a menu of all the things going on in the world. It might be very overwhelming, but what do you feel most called to? Right. Okay. Well, if you feel called towards animals and their animal welfare, then great. It doesn't mean you don't care about everything else, but you know, it's like, let's. Honor where the energy is. Sarah: Yeah, it's human to want to relate on that human level and not be robots that like everything, right? That care about everything, right? Yeah, I can totally relate to that. Um, you also on your website talk about these, the three A's, which I believe are anxiety. Ambivalence, ambivalence and, and, um, aspiration is it right? So really finding out [00:33:00] what drives people, um, Renee: in their care. Yeah, exactly. Sarah: I, I, uh, I like that a lot. Yeah, Renee: powerful stuff. It's very useful for people who do work in, you know, marketing and brand strategy. Yeah. Sarah: I can't, can't wait for that book. So keep working. Thank Renee: you. Sarah: Wonderful. Well, any last words for people? I always say at the end of each episode, I say, you know, listeners, humane marketers are change makers before we are marketers. So any last words that you would like to share with the change makers that are listening? Renee: Um, Transcribed Well, 1, check out project inside out and my website. Um, so there's Renee Lertzman dot com and then there's project inside out has like tools and it's a little dated right now. So I just want to acknowledge that. Um, but I would check it out. And if you like it and are excited by it, you [00:34:00] know. Get in touch. Um, we're actually looking at how to evolve it into a program, like an actual, like you said, year long program. I would like to evolve it into a year long program for guiding change. Um, and my, my, I guess, you know, I would just say inviting people who identify as change makers to really identify as being guides. And what does it mean to be a guide and really learning about guiding, you know, that it's, you know, what, what does that involve? Um, and, and it's a more powerful way of showing up, but it's also takes a lot of the pressure off you because it's no longer all on you to try to get people to do anything. It's really about how do we enable guide partner. Kind of help contribute to the conditions for people to go there. And then the other thing I would just say is acknowledge that this work can be overwhelming and tiring and sometimes lonely. And [00:35:00] it's really important that. You get the support and connection that you need with nature, other people, whatever that is, um, is really important. Sarah: Yeah, thanks so much. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week, Renee? Renee: Um, I'm grateful that I have, you know, the ability to, you know, live in a place that is safe. And, um, there's nature and, um, yeah, I mean, I'm just grateful for really simple things right now. Mm-Hmm. Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and being my guest. This was Renee: to Thank you, . Yeah. I'm grateful for you and for having this conversation. Thank you. Sarah: I hope you [00:36:00] enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it with Renée and got some great value from listening in. You can find out more about Renée and her work at renéelaertsman. com as well as the link projectinsideout. com And if you are looking for this community for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And, uh, we'd love to have you there to have these deeper conversations about the transformation that we're currently finding ourselves in and what it has to do with marketing. You can find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 7 9. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence [00:37:00] mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. Cause we are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.
37:27 12/15/23
Ethical Pricing
Join me and guest Mark Silver in a deep dive into ethical pricing, dissecting models like "pay what you can" and the intriguing "pay from the heart." Mark, drawing from his new book "," emphasizes the crucial elements of transparency, balance, and assertiveness in pricing. The discussion explores ethical selling, treating clients individually, and a holistic, heart-aligned pricing strategy for sustainable business practices. In this episode, Patrick and I talk about his 'pay from the heart' price model as well as: His view on what money is (and it’s NOT energy!) How to price ethically The elements of a successful ‘pay what you can’ approach Who should adopt these models? Why neediness is not a bad thing Client sovereignty And so much more Ep 178 transcription Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Pricing and I'm so happy to have a returning guest Mark Silver from Heart of Business and we're going to be talking about Ethical pricing. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your [00:03:00] one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not prescriptive, but really reflective. Everything we do here at humane marketing is questioning our. Assumptions, what we assume and what we think we should be doing in marketing and question those assumptions and then come up with our own ideas. So before I tell you a bit more about Mark, allow me to invite you to a special week of events that is hosted by our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. Expo. We're calling it the Expo because we're exposing many different workshops and events that are all hosted by the members of our [00:04:00] community. It really truly is an unsummit, a different kind of experience that is organized and held by our community. And why an unsummit or what is an unsummit? Uh, it's because it's not just about what you'll learn, but how you'll experience it. Really, we decided that for this event, connection is our guiding star, and we believe in a different kind of learning. One where human connection is just as vital as the knowledge gained. So, our expo is about real conversations. It's shared experiences in a participating atmosphere that emphasizes the power of community. So it's not just about getting in as much content as you can and watching hours and hours of recordings, but really attending live. You can expect workshops, discussions, and connection calls that are aimed at fostering a sense of togetherness. And it's not just about [00:05:00] being passive, but an active member. About sharing, learning, and growing together, the activities range from a LinkedIn profile makeover to doodling for stress relief to data analysis, the human way we have grouped the different offerings into four areas that we believe make up a humane business and they are being. Relating, thinking, and doing. So please join us for free at the humane dot marketing forward slash expo E X P O. And while it's free to join, we'll ask for a small donation to attend the workshops because all revenue goes towards the fundraiser of the first ever real live meeting of our community in Sicily in May, 2024. So I hope to see you at the expo. The link again is humane. marketing forward slash expo and humane is with an [00:06:00] E at the end, humane. marketing forward slash expo. Okay. Back to this week's episode with Mark Silver. Since 1999, Mark has worked with heart centered entrepreneurs to help them realize that Every act of business can be an act of love. Mark is one of the pioneers in integrating real spirituality with the nitty gritty of small business. He founded Heart of Business Inc in 2001. A designated master teacher within his Sufi lineage, he has received his Masters of Divinity. As a coach, teacher, and spiritual healer, he has facilitated. Thousands of individual sessions with entrepreneurs and has led hundreds of classes, seminars, groups, and retreats. His weekly writings and teachings are followed by thousands of people around the globe. A fourth generation entrepreneur prior to heart of business, Mark ran a [00:07:00] distribution business, turned around a struggling nonprofit magazine and worked as a paramedic in the San Francisco Bay area. So in today's episode, we talked about Mark's view on what money is, and it's not energy according to him, how to price ethically, the elements of a successful pay what you can approach, who should adopt these models, why neediness is not a bad thing, client sovereignty, and so much more. So let's dive into this conversation with Mark Silver. Hi, Mark. So good to have you back. Thanks so much for indulging me again and, uh, uh, taking another round and another shot at this conversation. We had some tech issues the first time, so thanks so much for coming  Mark: back. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. If I think of all the times I've had tech issues or problems over the last couple of decades. No worries. [00:08:00] Part of it.  Sarah: Thank you. Thanks for being here. So we're hosting this conversation under the topic of ethical pricing. You've been on the podcast on a previous episode where we also talked about pricing, but, uh, a different aspect of, well, part of ethical pricing, which is this, uh, thing that you often talk about, which is pay what you want or pay what you can model. So we'll address that as well, but I feel like we could have easily called this episode the, um, ethical business, uh, episode, because you just wrote a book called Heart Centered Business, right? And so I, I read it and I, I'm going to kind of pick your brain about certain questions that came up for me, if that's okay. Mark: Yeah, I'm delighted. I'm delighted to dig in.  Sarah: Wonderful. So quite in the first pages of the book, you talk about money. And I think if we talk about ethical pricing, well, [00:09:00] obviously we need to talk about money, right? So this idea that often kind of makes it circles in the spiritual realms is this idea of, uh, money being energy and you make a very clear statement that money is not energy. And so I'd love for you to unpack this and explain, uh, yeah, your approach to it and why money isn't energy.  Mark: Yeah, so, um, thank you. It's a, it's a, it's a really good question. So this whole idea that while money's just energy, um, is something that I've seen make the rounds, as you said, in a lot of like spiritual business circles, and it's very often used, I think, as a bit of a, of a bypass, meaning, you know, not really POSITIVE pinpointing. You know, as taking permission to not really look at what's going on. Um, the truth is, it's true. Everything is [00:10:00] energy. Everything is divine at its essence. However, money only exists as money in the physical world. And when something is present in the physical world, it abides by. The, um, constrictions, the restrictions within the physical world, you know, it's like I look out my window and it's, you know, we're moving very close to winter. All the leaves are off the trees. This is not a time to try to plant tomatoes. You know, it's like, it's not going to work. Um, it is a time to plant trees, however. So it's like, Thank you. Because trees need to be dormant in order to over the over the winter. I don't need to get deep into regenerative farming and planting, but I did not know that. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah. You can plant them in the early spring. We could spend the whole episode on trees. I love trees. Anyway, um, so. When we talk about money as energy, it's really important that we're not thinking that that's an excuse [00:11:00] to bypass just being responsible with the, with how it works in the world, you know, it's, you know, there's, we have to pay attention to it. We have to account for it. We have to care for it if we want it to be in our lives. Now, It's also important to say that the economic systems that are in place in this world are extremely unjust there they've been manipulated they've been set up to benefit certain people and to harm others and so it's not like we just want to be. Um, unmindful of questions of justice or ethics or morality when we're dealing with money, but it does behoove us to really open our hearts to dealing with the real world aspects of what is needed to make money work in our lives. [00:12:00] Yeah.  Sarah: What comes to mind is, is the, um, I'm missing the words that, you know, the movement, um, that manifests anything, the, yeah, I can't remember the wording right now, but, but basically this idea of that, you know, if you just wish for it hard enough, then it will appear, um, kind of thing. And I, my. Left brain has just never been a big fan of that idea because it, like, I have a hard time actually understanding it because I, I do believe money is physical as well. So it's like, well, how, how is it just going to end up? And then again, sometimes, yes, you know, it does happen. Some weird circumstances make it, make it happen, but I don't think you can just sit back and. And manifest everything, anything and everything you want.  Mark: Yeah. So, you know, as a spiritual person and someone who's had a wide [00:13:00] variety of experiences in this world, I've witnessed miracles. I've witnessed things happen. Um, you know, You know, the, because the opposite isn't true either. Everything doesn't have to be hard work. You know, again, going back to, um, the land, like, you can set up, um, regenerative agriculture. You can set up permaculture. So the plants care for themselves. You can set up your business. You can set up your money so that it's easier to do. And it's not so much hard work. However, in the physical world, yeah. The physical world is limited and we're asked to care for one another. We're asked, you know, it's like a one person, you know, if we have a pie, somebody takes the whole pie, nobody else gets to eat. Right. We have to, we're here to share and we're here to care for one another. Right.  Sarah: Yeah. So, so if we take this idea of money being physical, so what does that then mean for our ethical pricing? How do we [00:14:00] apply ethical pricing with physical money?  Mark: Yeah, it's a really good question. And I, I looked at it very closely in particular in my industry, um, around business development and business coaching and business training. And I have seen for. For years and years and years and years, I mean, since, you know, 20 years, 23 years, I've been doing this now. I've seen people charge. Very high, very, you know, five figures, you know, 10, 000, 20, 000, um, to offer business training for people that are in the very beginnings of their business building. And when I think about ethical pricing at that level, there is no way that a brand new business just starting to take on. Learning about business is going to be able to generate the kind of income and revenue, uh, that is going to make that kind of investment worthwhile. Um, there's no [00:15:00] way that you can jumpstart. You know, it's like a plant takes what it takes to. To grow i've i've watched you know over the years we've seen really clearly that it takes two to four years for a business to go from creation to momentum if you're really focused on business development it doesn't happen in six months it doesn't happen even in twelve months although you can make a lot of progress and gain. Um, and gain traction there, but so ethical pricing is when the investment is balanced. The price that you're paying is balanced with what a reasonable outcome could be. You know, not, um, the, the home run, you know, people who, who do a variety of programs like to point out the stars. It's like, oh, yeah, they did my program and they quadrupled their income. And now they're making 6 figures easy. And 1, they're often hiding. The background of the person that that got those results [00:16:00] and what we really want to see is but what is the average person because you want someone who's doing a program most people are going to get average results and are those average results which can be great average results are great are they are the average results worth the investment or are you hoping on a lottery ticket that you're going to be the one person that gets the home run. We have to pay attention to that.  Sarah: I think it's all about honesty and talking about results with honesty. Right. And in humane marketing, we talk a lot about this idea of being transparent and honest marketers. And, and so what we usually see is exaggerated pricing with exaggerated results, like the worst of both cases. Right. Yeah. Like, yeah. And, and so, and the sad thing about this is that. Then people start to [00:17:00] expect miracle results, right? And if you as a humane marketer show up and say, I can't promise you 10 clients within 3 months of working with me. Um, then there's like disappointment or they're like, well, this other person promises this and that. And, and so it really feels like we need to have this conversation that there. Is no miracle solution. Yes. I also believe in miracles, uh, Mark, but in terms of business building, especially if you just start out, well, there, you know, the leaps usually happen a bit later, but in the first year, it's very, it's very seldom that you get these leaps. And especially you can't believe that you. Just because you invest 20, 000, you're going to get these leaps, right? That's exactly right. Honesty conversation we need to have. Yeah,  Mark: we do. And the, and the miracles which can come, I've seen people like, you know, they, you know, they, uh, you know, they [00:18:00] suddenly get a slew of clients, but if they don't understand where those clients came from and how to repeat it, then that's not really, you know, that's, that's not really what the, um. That's not really the cause of whatever program you're taking, right? It's like, you can, you can be set up to receive those clients. I've seen people be on the receiving end of miracles, but their business isn't structured to receive people. And then that definitely can create a problem. Like, you know, like, I think of a client, I think of clients who suddenly got big media exposure just because of that. By luck, but then the people that came towards them, they didn't know how to handle that. So, you know, I've worked with clients who say, oh, my goodness, I'm getting this big media exposure happening. It's going to be coming in a couple of weeks. I'm like, okay, let's ABC, like, let's handle these things so that your business is ready to receive whatever comes towards you. But, um, but you, you do need to, um, not. Pinned on [00:19:00] miracles and home runs for your business to work.  Sarah: Yeah. So let's talk about this, uh, idea of the sliding scale. So this, um, kind of accessible pricing in order to serve as many people as possible. That's kind of at the opposite end of the spectrum, right? Um, I do notice myself also, um, after having had discussions with colleagues, Having strong emotions with that scheme as well, because I do feel like, well, if we're selling that as an ideal business model, then that is not necessarily the beginning point for everybody either. Because otherwise you're going to burn out and, you know, if you start by just giving away your stuff for like really cheap pricing, then how are you going to get create momentum? So I'm really curious to, to [00:20:00] hear your thoughts on that.  Mark: Yeah, I think it's really important to understand that most of us. You know, we've been exposed to this, you know, large scale capitalist model, where it's like, we sell a lot for cheap, you know, the, the Walmart or Amazon or whatever model, and it's not healthy, you know, all of the small businesses, micro businesses are boutique businesses, you know, you can't, you can't. You can't sell 10, 000 or 100, 000. It's not realistic that you're going to get there very quickly. It takes, you know, if that's your business model, there's other things that we need to put in place. And we should talk to make sure that's really where you want to go. However, I'm very actually against sliding scale. And my pay from the heart model is significantly different than just a plain sliding scale. What I observed years ago with people using sliding scales was that there were, uh, Two things generally going on. [00:21:00] One was that there was this genuine desire to make their work accessible. Beautiful, beautiful. It's really important. There are people who can't access services, and it's wonderful to see people make attempts to make services available to them. However, what most people who were using sliding skills weren't doing is facing their own money issues. And so. Instead of facing their own money issues and coming up with something that works, they were unloading their money issues on somebody else and saying, Oh, I'm struggling to name a price. So you name a price. And when that works, when that happens, one, people do tend to go to the bottom of the scale. Um, just because. You know, struggling on their own in whatever ways, but, um, what also happens, which people didn't really realize till I started pointing this out to some of my clients was that if someone is struggling with money [00:22:00] issues themselves and everyone in this culture. Is if they have to choose the price they might choose not to buy it all because it's such an emotional struggle between i want to i want to care for myself i don't have a lot but i want to pay what they're worth it's too much to decide i'm just going to leave right yeah exactly exactly and overwhelmed so when we talk about pay from the heart there's a whole structure around it because, you You do need to, you know, I encourage people to really get clear on what your own business needs are and make that really clear to people. You know, we, we've just opened up a new course and, um. And we have, uh, our suggested price and we have a minimum price, and then we have a way for people to pay less than the minimum. But we make very clear that, oh, this [00:23:00] is for people who are going, who are struggling with food or shelter people that are, you know, like, it would do you a lot of harm. This is not just pay whatever's comfortable. Right? Because we need to be supported also. And so it's, it's much more of a collaborative process than just letting people choose whatever it is they want to, whatever they want to pay.  Sarah: Yeah. And I highly recommend we'll, we'll put the link in the, in the show notes page to the initial, the earlier discussion we had was only about that. And what I remember you saying, and I kind of gave this picture to my client of the, the star yoga pose, you know, take up space. I remember you're saying that I'm like, Oh yeah, that's a good way to put it. It's like you need to take up space as well and take up the space to explain things. You know, usually people just say, pay whatever you want. And then, like you said, they usually pick the lowest price. And if you [00:24:00] explain it well, then they'll understand. Um, And that takes you kind of showing up with, with confidence and space. Yeah. Right.  Mark: And we, and we made a mistake with this, um, in that we had launched it and we were way on the generous side. Going, you know, if you're really struggling, you know, et cetera, um, and people were paying below our minimum way more than was sustainable for us. And we're looking at it going, what's going on? And then we looked at our language. We're like, Oh, we're not taking a strong stand. And ever since we've taken a stronger stand, um, kind with kindness and with love and compassion, but including our business in the compassion with one of our offers, um, people really responded. And we really started seeing a market increase people, people care, you know, our clients are adults. You know, if [00:25:00] someone's paying you, they're going to be an adult, even if you work with kids, even if your business works with kids, the people paying you are the adults somehow, and they know that your business needs. You know, that you need to get paid, like, they know that it costs money to access services. And so you're not going to be surprising anyone when you put out what your financial needs are around and off. Right.  Sarah: So, so, yeah, this idea of neediness also comes up. In the book, and I guess that's what you meant by it, right? This, this are that our business has needs as well. And of course, as individuals have needs, but that in this case, neediness is not a bad thing. Um, is there anything else you want to add to that point of neediness?  Mark: Oh, my goodness. So this is a huge spiritual topic. And it's one of the core [00:26:00] things that we like to help people with. And in fact, our one of our flagship courses, the heart of money and power is really at heart about coming into a relationship with healthy neediness. We're all needy. We're all needy. It's this culture that has Told us that neediness is not healthy or not right, but we often aim our neediness in a wrong direction in a way where we're not going to get our needs met. And I'm, I mean, I'm needy. I can't manufacture the air that I'm breathing. I can't create the water that I drink. I can't force food to grow. You know, I'm needy on so many people doing their part in our culture for, you know, to survive. And so. When we can embrace our neediness, then we can be in a healthy relationship with it. We can be appropriate with it. When we try to [00:27:00] shove our neediness down and not embrace it is when it comes out sideways. You know, that's when it comes out in the sales conversation or comes out in our marketing. And it has this weird feeling of like, Oh, please buy for me or I'm not going to make it. And that feels horrible. To you as the business owner and it also obviously feels horrible to the client, but if we can just slow down and allow our heart to be fed our heart to drink in the love to drink in the care to know that we're cared for deeply. Then that allows us to feel grounded and solid and then we can start to provide a refuge for people and our clients can then lean into us not feeling like we're trying to extract something from them. Yes, we want to get paid, but we really want to care for people at the same time and it becomes a [00:28:00] much healthier interchange and it allows us to get at our marketing and our sales in a way that can feel really good in the heart. Because we're not trying to get something from people in that same kind of twisted way. Sarah: I feel like our, both our work is so aligned. You, you talk about sacred selling. I talk about selling like we're human. I have this visual of having a conversation with your client in the serene garden, right? So this groundedness is very much there. And, and I, yeah, I really hear you with what that means in terms of the neediness. But then there's also this other aspect of the client sovereignty, which you also talk about in the book, right? It's kind of this counter piece almost, uh, where yes, we have needs, but we also want the client to be sovereign and, you know, make their own decision and respect their decision. And their [00:29:00] timing and all of that, which is not what we're usually told in marketing or selling. We are told to push at any cost. So, um, yeah, what's the sacred selling look like for you?  Mark: Well, it's, it's so interesting because when I, when I. If my former career was as a paramedic, or 1 of my former careers was as a paramedic in the San Francisco Bay area, and I did it for some years in pretty intense environments like Oakland, California. And I, um. When I came into business more came back into business, I should say, I found that I was really good at sales and I was like, how does this may even make sense? And I realized that because I was a really skilled paramedic, I was skilled at doing rapid assessments and chaotic, chaotic environments where people were often scared or upset. I was good at. Caring for people and [00:30:00] assessing that that's basically what sales is. It's this assessment that, um, we're trying to get to the bottom of what is it that they really need. It's interesting. Another interesting thing that I discovered was that in, uh. English the word to sell the word cell comes from an old English word cell gen. I'm not pronouncing it correctly. I don't speak old English. Um, but the original meaning is to give something to someone in response to a request. So if you were to say, hey, Mark, can I have that pencil and I handed you the pencil that's selling. I would have sold the pencil to you because you asked for it. That's the heart of what we're trying to do is just get people what they need, not force people to make a decision that's entirely on us. So one of the, one of the keys of selling, uh, successfully is actually, and I. And I, I think this can be counterintuitive [00:31:00] sometimes for people that are hard centered, is that it's a numbers game. Um, you, you want your business to reach enough people that your need to have business and clients, which is totally legitimate. Of course, we need business and clients doesn't put that pressure on any one individual person that you're talking to. You can't really help it so much and it takes a lot of spiritual work and heart soothing in the beginning of business because you don't have such a wide network yet. You know, to not put that pressure, but as a business develops part of what happens is that. You naturally start to gain a larger audience i mean you work towards it you develop it you put things in place that help grow the audience and i don't mean tens of thousands of people i just mean hundreds of people or maybe a couple thousand that your business is reaching. So that when you have an offer, there are people that are naturally ready to [00:32:00] step forward and you're not putting pressure on people that aren't ready. And you can easily in your heart, give people space when they're not ready.  Sarah: Yeah, that's a really good way to, to put into perspective why we, I don't, I'm not a big fan of the word audience, but in this case, it makes sense, right? Why we need our work to reach. Several people, not just the ones that we talk to, and then we feel like we have to push our services onto them. So, so to me, it's always been such a gift when I put out an offer and then people resonate with that offer and come to me, right? That's such a more natural way of, of then having this, uh, humane, uh, gentle sales conversation. Mark: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'll tell you why I. Do you like the word audience? Um, I think that, and there may be other words. I'd be interested to hear what your [00:33:00] language is around it, but audience for me has an element of honesty about it, you know, so for instance, heart of business, we reach thousands of people, you know, our emails. When we send out our Wednesday email, or if I'm on social media, there's thousands of people I don't have, I have a warm relationship and anyone who steps forward to talk to me, we have a warm connection. But I don't have an in, we do as a business. And for me as a, as the, as the head of the business, I don't have a warm, uh, I don't have an intimate. Relationship with each person on the list and, um, I care, obviously, you know, we care. It's not to say we don't care, but until someone steps forward and wants to have a deeper relationship, you know, joins our learning community or joins a course or something, then it becomes 2 way relationship. And until then, it really is a relationship. With an [00:34:00] audience, um, with, uh, you know, that's more or less a one way communication, unless someone chooses to reach out and email me, which I always, I mean, I love to get those messages, but the truth is the vast majority of people don't. So,  Sarah: yeah, no, and I get that. I think it's, it's, it's more the. Again, it's one of those buzzwords that has gotten a bad reputation because once you unpack the word, yeah, that's what the word means, right? And there's nothing bad with that word. But the problem is that, um, the guru marketers, you know, they tell you to scale your audience and grow. And so it becomes this negative thing where, again, we make. People feel like they have to have this giant audience and, you know, not everybody wants to have the same kind of business module like you do, or some of the other, um, marketers do. And so that's why to me, when I work with one on one coaching clients, for [00:35:00] example, they're like, I don't have an audience. What is an audience? Right. And so when I explain it to them, what it means, then. Then they get it, right? So it's all a matter of making sure that we speak the same language and understand  Mark: each other. It's so important because these words do get really twisted.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Well, let's come full circle and come back to pricing. Um, any kind of, um, thoughts, actions that you'd like our listeners, watchers to, to take and just to. Go deeper into this ethical pricing.  Mark: Um, I think so. Arriving at a price is a little bit of an alchemical process. Um, you know, you need to have some knowledge. Like, I really encourage people to figure out what are your financial needs? You know, what are the needs of the business? You know, what is it? What is a price that a That you don't [00:36:00] have to be overwhelmed by clients in order to make a living and at the same time we need to be aware of our somatic body of our of our heart resonance because especially when we're newer in business i like to see people prioritize getting energy flowing through their business as opposed to like sticking to their guns and quote unquote charging what they're worth which doesn't make any sense that phrase doesn't even, You Make any sense. Um, and so oftentimes people begin, you know, we encourage people like, what is the price that you feel in your heart, in your body? You can say without shaking that you can put out there and feel really solid about and feel comfortable welcoming people in, even if it's lower than what you really need. Because what happens is, is that yeah. You know it's it's it's never only the price that's keeping people from saying yes [00:37:00] there's all these other pieces that need to be looked at in terms of how are you communicating and are you reaching the right people and you know and a lot of other things and. If all of those things are true, you know, and you get all of those things in alignment, then finding the price feels resonant in your heart. Even if it's lower, we'll start to get the flow going if your business is newer and you don't have a lot of flow. And so, um, and then that builds up your container. You start to go, Oh, I like working with clients. Oh, I've gotten to practice the sales conversation. I've gotten good at that. Oh, I like, I see that my offer is working and I've managed to tweak it. And once those things happen, generally, we start to feel comfortable at a higher price at a price that may be, you know, more sustainable. On the other hand, yeah. There may be people who have been in business for a while, and [00:38:00] they're actually not charging enough. And that's part of why their business is struggling. And, you know, and I'm talking about ethically in terms of being in alignment with themselves. We, I, I've had clients who said, you know, I've learned from this person, they've been doing it for 40 years, they're a master, but they're only charging this much. And so how can I charge more than them? And I, I often say, you know, well, they're, you know, they may be really good at what they do, but maybe they haven't worked on their money, money issues, maybe their pricing is stuck in a somatic memory from the 1980s instead of, you know, present day and, um. And a lot of times people in those positions don't realize how they're affecting everybody downstream. And so there's like an ethical need to embrace sustainable pricing, you know, sustainable pricing for the business owner. I think ethical pricing. We often look at, okay, are we [00:39:00] doing harm to the client? And that we do, we need to pay attention to that. But I also, you know, Notice that a lot of, uh, people that we work with see the systemic injustices, see the ways that people are struggling. And I'm saying, and I like to tell people, you cannot make up for systemic injustices on your own back. It needs to be a collective response and, um, and often our economic, economic system is asking, you know, exactly the people who shouldn't be giving yet more free labor, you know, women, people of color, um, queer folks, people who are disabled. Always the good people, right? Right. The people, the people who are, who are already being taxed by the system, who are already being asked to give more and to do more. And. These folks, and, you know, you need to have, um, sustainable pricing.  Sarah: [00:40:00] Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up this other side, which I, yeah, I truly believe in both sides and I do, I kind of see the same thing happening as in the sustainability field where there's so many good people, you know, putting. Themselves and, and, and their work into making these changes that we need to make, but they're not taking care of themselves, right? They're burning out in masses and, and that is not humane, uh, either. And so that that's not helping anybody. And so it's the same for the, for the humane business owner. Well, we need to actually first have you take care of yourself. Uh, once you are sustainable and you feel like I've taken care of myself without working day and night, right? A humane best business, in my opinion, is a business where you do actually have time to be human. We need to have this. Time to [00:41:00] to, yeah, create spaciousness for being human again, which we have, you know, forgotten how to do. You're talking about, you know, um, uh, plants and things like that. Well, we don't do that anymore because we're working all the time. But, um, so, so, yeah, I could go go on and on about this. This is like. One of my passion topics right now, but it's so true that we need to listen to, to both of these things. Yes. We want to be ethical towards others, but also towards ourselves.  Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I think it's important for most people to, you know, people come into the field seeing, Oh, Hey, you know, come into their business thinking, Oh, I want to do this. You know, I want to make it accessible. I want to, you know, And I'd like to remind folks that most businesses, the business model that they're ultimately going to be successful with is not a business model that is accessible when they're in the very beginning of their business [00:42:00] and, um, you know, our pay from the heart model for our learning community. I couldn't even even created the learning community back in the beginning of our business. I didn't have the material created. I didn't have the solidity and the knowledge and the clarity that I have now on how to help people without having my hands directly on their business, you know, 1 to 1. And so it's quite a natural progression to, um. Start with getting the business on sound footing and then as you're, as you evolve and as you gain knowledge, and as you get clear on your work and your body of work, then to start to think about how can I shift this business model, not only to make it easier for me, but also to meet some of the goals I have around making it accessible to others. Sarah: Yeah, that's a good strategy. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Mark. Why don't you tell people where they can find. About [00:43:00] you and also your book and maybe tell us about who the ideal reader is for your book as well.  Mark: Yeah, thank you. Well, I mean, we live at heart of business dot com, uh, you know, if you're interested, you know, you may want to just start with our email list and make sure that, you know, I, I'm, I'm actually who I say I am and that the. Stuff that's coming out is consistent, you know, and it make and it makes sense on practical on practical level. Um, you can on our homepage if you scroll down, uh, uh, get an excerpt from the book, um, to read the 1st chapter and to see the table of contents. And, um, again, that's a good way to get it. Get a sense of it. Um, it's interesting when you write a book, it's definitely for, you know, heart of business. We specialize in working with micro businesses, which is people that are self employed up to, you know, maybe a double handful of people involved in the business, you know, from [00:44:00] people that are just trying to replace the professional salary all the way up to, you know, small businesses that might be struggling. Yeah. Making high six figures or low seven figures. That's kind of our range. Um, but I've been told by a lot of people that work with much larger companies, that the book actually applies very beautifully to people working in large corporations. And, um, um, and, uh, and so, yeah, um, we're just trying to get as much support. I'm really grateful. You're doing the work that you're doing, Sarah, because, um. We need as much love in the realm of business as we can get. There is so much healing and so much change that's needed, uh, to, um, undo the damage and to have a much more humane, much healthier, much more heart centered approach, uh, to being in business in this world. Sarah: For sure. Yeah. Thank you. I [00:45:00] always have one last question, Mark, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week?  Mark: Oh, I am so grateful for where we live. Um, I get to, I know a lot of people don't have access to this and I'm just grateful to have access to, um, the woods and, uh, and the land around our house where we can grow food and where we can walk the dogs and just be in connection with nature. And it's just, um, it's just a, it's a balm on my soul.  Sarah: Hmm. Wonderful. I'm grateful our internet connection worked for this conversation.  Mark: Yes. That too. That too.  Sarah: Thanks so much for hanging out, Mark.  Mark: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Sarah: I hope you got great value and insights from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Mark and [00:46:00] his work at heartofbusiness. com. And of course, go over to heartcenteredbusinessbook. com to get a free excerpt of the book and some other information and of course, also links to buy the book. If you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us? During the week of December 4th to 8th in our community, we're hosting an expo. We call it the Humane Marketing Circle Expo, and we'd love to see you there. At the expo that is hosted by our community members, we prioritize connection as a guiding principle. This means you'll find engaging workshops, intimate discussions, study groups, and even a walk in nature. We believe in the power of a Collective wisdom, learning together and creating a truly participative atmosphere. The sessions are curated into four themed categories, being, relating, thinking, and doing, and these [00:47:00] are all addressing spectrum of topics that engage both our left and right brain, our masculine and feminine energies. So would you like to be part of that? Well, go over to humane. marketing forward slash expo and join us for this week of Humane Business Offerings. It's free to join, and we just ask for small donations to attend the workshops and the raised funds all go towards our first live event of the community in Sicily in May, 2020. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 178. And on this beautiful page, you'll also. Find a series of free offers, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your [00:48:00] clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:49:00] 
49:15 12/1/23
Quantum Marketing: Partnering with the Invisible
This week I had the pleasure of delving into a deep conversation with Patrick Geary in our latest podcast episode. Brace yourself for a paradigm shift as we explore the realm of Quantum Marketing. Patrick, a seasoned quantum coach, astrologer, and time magician. In this episode, we redefine success, liberate ourselves from the confines of marketing "shoulds," explore the effects of scarcity, and discover how abundance can coexist harmoniously with financial stability. If you're ready for a profound shift in your approach to marketing, join us for this different approach to marketing that’s about partnering with the Quantum. In this episode, Patrick and I address: A definition of Quantum Marketing How Quantum Marketing makes us rethink our definition of success Conditions and shoulds in marketing and how QM helps us break free from them Scarcity and its impact How we can be in abundance and still pay the bills And so much more -- [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:29] Hi friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I hope you're doing well. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. And this time we're partnering with. The quantum. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. [00:02:50] And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at [00:03:00] humane. marketing forward slash one. page. That's the number one and the word page and humane has an E at the end. So it's not human, but humane. [00:03:11] It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So in this episode, I talked to Patrick Geary about Quantum Marketing. Patrick is a quantum coach, astrologer, and time magician who helps people weave joyful new realities. His work will help you to recognize the patterns that govern your daily decisions, to make creative connections with your higher consciousness, and to craft a new mindset to catch what your soul desires. [00:03:45] Patrick believes passionately in world service and worked as an international human rights lawyer for the UN. He has come to understand that the greatest service of all is to be a living example of your truth and knows [00:04:00] firsthand that one person can always make a difference. In today's episode we address definition of quantum marketing, so what What does that really mean? [00:04:11] It's a fancy term, but what does it mean to Patrick and also how do I understand it? How quantum marketing makes us rethink our definition of success, conditions and shoulds in marketing and how quantum marketing helps us break free from them, scarcity and its impact and how we can be in abundance and still pay the bills. [00:04:36] And so much more. Are you ready for a different way of thinking about marketing? Well, then this episode is for you. Let's dig in. Hi, Patrick. So good to be hanging out with you and talk about quantum marketing. [00:04:53] Patrick: Likewise. Thanks so much for inviting me. I'm really excited. [00:04:57] Sarah: Yeah, me too. And we've had some [00:05:00] off recording conversations about this because we really wanted to make sure that we, you know, have an episode and that really explains this quantum marketing and how you see it. [00:05:13] And you, you notice that, you know, I'm, I'm new to this as well. And so I'm like, well, how can we make it clear to people who are also new to this? So I'm super excited to, to dive into this with you, Patrick. So, so maybe before we go into kind of the topics that we decided we wanted to cover, let's start with a definition, you know, like, how would you define quantum marketing in your words? [00:05:40] Patrick: That's a great question. And when I think about quantum marketing first, we can look at when I'm talking about what quantum is and the word quantum and what is the quantum structure and then just give a sense of maybe how that applies in the context of marketing. So when we look at the quantum structure, we're looking at the nature of consciousness and how consciousness expresses [00:06:00] itself. [00:06:00] And your consciousness and I'm consciousness and everything you see around you is consciousness. It's this understanding that there's really no separation. That the universe is just one particle that's vibrating to infinity. So that quantum structure is that sense of you and me are inside the universe. [00:06:18] Sometimes I think it's really funny we talk about the universe wants this from here. The universe wants that as though it's different from us or separate from us. And it's not. We're inside the universe. That's one of those key things to remember is that we are a part of the quantum structure. We are part of the infinite and what we see and what we experience is up to us. [00:06:40] It's really the sense that like, this is like a dream, you know, when you go to sleep, you accept that anything that's happening in that you're seeing, it's all a projection. It's all things that are happening that your brain is perceiving and wiring back to you. So it's that same thing in the physical reality of. [00:06:55] Everything that you see is a projection. It's a part of you and [00:07:00] what you experience. It's determined by your beliefs, by your emotions and also by your actions. So that's kind of that quantum structure generally is there is no separation. We experience things separately and we can talk about parallel realities, which is also really fun. [00:07:15] Like the two of us right now are having a parallel reality experience. We're having the same conversation together. So we're coming together and you're looking at me and I'm looking at you. So we're having the same conversation and we're seeing the same thing, but we're also doing it through these different eyes. [00:07:30] So that's also that awareness of like, we're together right now we're operating as one, but we also have two different viewpoints and what you see is influenced by your emotions and your beliefs and your actions. And for me, it's the same. So we take that kind of basic idea of this is the quantum structure and then we can look at it from how does this, what does this mean when it comes to marketing? [00:07:52] So one of the things I really think about is you're only ever really marketing to yourself. If everything is united and there's no separation, [00:08:00] then it's really. You know, how you go about sharing your work is going to determine how it's received. So your actions, your beliefs, your emotions, this has a huge impact on your message and your marketing and how you see it received in the world around you. [00:08:18] Sarah: Yeah, it's so interesting when you started with, you know, consciousness and how quantum really means conscious and When I think about right now, you know, in the Zeitgeist, this word conscious is so, you see it everywhere, you hear it everywhere, but I'm not sure everybody has taken the moment and thought about what does it really mean, and do they think of the word conscious in the same way you just explained quantum, like conscious conscious. [00:08:53] Yeah. I think the way I use it is different from what you explained that we're all [00:09:00] one. Um, I guess in a way, yes, because I, you know, in, in marketing, like we're human or humane marketing, I say it's, um, marketing for the generation that cares for ourselves, our clients and the planet. So in a way, I am thinking we are all one, so we need to all take care of each other. [00:09:23] Does that make any sense to you, what I'm trying [00:09:26] Patrick: to explain? It does. Absolutely. And whether you're looking at, you know, you, you as your own personal experience or you as me or you as the world around you, You're looking at the same thing. It's like that sense of like, are you, you know, I almost imagine like telescope or microscope. [00:09:43] Like, are you looking at something really big and vast? Or are you going to look at, you know, the whole world around you and everyone you can see and know that they're all part of you and this is what you're experiencing? And how you want to work with? Or are you just looking at yourself? Are you doing the microscope and really looking at like, what is my [00:10:00] message? [00:10:00] And how am I broadcasting it? And what does it mean to me? So it's you can really vary that scope from looking all the way. You could even imagine marketing to the universe, which is essentially what we're all doing. You know, marketing to things that go beyond earth and really transmitting your messages out there into space. [00:10:17] You can imagine that sense of marketing as big or as small as you want to. And it's really, you get in for, you get almost like different perspectives or you wear different hats as you do that. And I find that's what's really illuminating is looking at that perspective from, you know, like, am I marketing just to me? [00:10:32] How do other people receive my messages? So when you try on those different lenses, it feels very different. That might, is that been your experience too? When you look at those different levels of like a marketing to me, I'm marketing to the next generation, I'm marketing to the planet. Do you get different feels for it? [00:10:48] Sarah: Yeah, definitely. And I and I think this marketing to me and, um, you know, one of the big differences between I find that between a humane marketing and traditional [00:11:00] marketing is this energy shift of Starting with ourselves first in humane marketing, where I say like, look at your passion, look at your bigger why, look at your personal power, meaning how you are wired and how, you know, you perceive the world where in the traditional marketing, it's It goes outwards. [00:11:23] It directly goes to your client avatar and you are always chasing something outside of you, right? Not starting with yourself. So I think it's that energy shift. And then it's funny because, uh, participants of the marketing, like we're human program, when it goes through the first three P's and we arrive at people, often they have this aha moment and say. [00:11:47] Is it possible that my ideal client is just another version of me? Like, it's not a bad thing. I'm like, no, yeah, that's exactly, uh, what this is about. Um, [00:12:00] and I think it kind of, yeah, relates to what you're saying is marketing to myself. Right. [00:12:06] Patrick: Yeah. And I think that's when you get that really nice alignment and that sense of truth and that real belief in yourself when you realize that, you know, what you want to offer to the world is something that matters to you the most. [00:12:18] And so you're looking to connect with other people who see that same thing in you. It's almost like I heard someone recently described. the concept of celebrity as, you know, being able other people being able to see themselves through your eyes. And I was like, that is so brilliant. That sense that somebody else can see themselves in me as I'm talking. [00:12:39] And that's that real marketing connection that I think we want, which really at the end of the day, a marketing connection is a human connection. As you say, it's all about transmitting information and sharing what we're here to share. So that sense of. That clarity, like if you're really in that space of clarity and you know this is who I am and this is what I want and you do that internal work, other people [00:13:00] sense that and they feel it and they respond to it, you know, it's that sense to it like again, like we're all connected. [00:13:06] So if that's where you are, then the only people who can interact with you and meet with you in that space are also people who are feeling clear in that way. Yeah, [00:13:14] Sarah: exactly. And it's, yeah. You're right. It's really that clarity that often resonates with people where if people sense that You're just chasing some, something outside of yourself and you're just kind of like shifting from one strategy to the next marketing strategy just to, you know, get to something, then, then that's not very, um. [00:13:40] It's not a calming presence, right? And so, yeah, it resonates probably with other people, but not the ones that we want to attract for sure. What that brings up for me is also, and we talked about this as well when, when we first connected this idea of the definition of success, right? How that [00:14:00] is such a key element in, in business anyways, but also in marketing. [00:14:06] And maybe tell us how That has to do with, uh, quantum marketing as well, where this definition of success comes in and why it's key. [00:14:17] Patrick: Yeah, success is such an interesting word and such an interesting concept. And one of the things we look at in the quantum perspective, too, is this idea of conditioning or being told certain things and, you know, in the quantum structure, everything is infinite and you have a message and you can share it with however many people you want to share it with, and you can create whatever experience you want to have. [00:14:38] And then the kind of experience that we want to create. Gets very almost narrowed down by our experiences over life and what society tells us like being successful means reaching 10, 000 people or being successful means having a product that is launched in 30 countries or whatever the metrics are that we use to determine success. [00:14:59] And if we work [00:15:00] towards those external metrics and they're not really part of our own truth, they're not really part of what matters to us, then that's when we start running into a lot of those constraints and constrictions and those feelings like, okay, well, I'm not worthy enough. You know, I didn't get the 10, 000 people that I wanted to get, or I did get the 10, 000 people, but I didn't do it in the way I wanted to do it in order to do that. [00:15:24] I had to be awake at funny times of night where my energy was off, or I had to dilute my message and say it in ways I didn't want to say it. Or I needed to do it on like these three different social media platforms when I don't even like social media. You know, you always get more of what you put out there in the world. [00:15:41] So I think this is also why we see lots of people experiencing marketing burnout, that sense of like, I can have a very successful, like outwardly successful marketing experience of getting lots of people on board. But at great personal costs, because it's not aligned with where I really am or what I really feel [00:16:00] is true. [00:16:01] And when you do that, you're not operating from that place of authenticity and it can be very draining and you start almost like attaching yourself to these conditions on like, in order to be successful, I have to do this and this and this, um, and I must meet these things. And then when you no longer meet them because you no longer can, because you no longer really wish to suddenly at all collapses, which is really the best thing that could ever happen. [00:16:24] But it's not a wonderful experience. Quantum [00:16:28] Sarah: approach here is to really, again, go within and listen to this consciousness that is telling you how you define success and then just tapping into, you know, uh, other stress, like, yeah, coming from within and aligning with the strategies that you feel like they resonate with you because they're aligned with your values. [00:16:54] And that will. Get you to that success because the definition [00:17:00] you created, you created it with quantum basically you created it with consciousness, right? [00:17:05] Patrick: Exactly. Yeah. And success because everything gets to be personal. Everything gets to be up to you. You get to make success mean what you want. And that does mean working through that conditioning and working through these things are hardwired. [00:17:18] So I don't want to say this like it's easy that you just wake up one day and you're like, you know what, forget all that stuff. Like this is hardwired in us. It's hardwired in our society and in our structure. So it's really a commitment. It's worth it. Um, but it is a commitment to see that sense of I really want to redefine success. [00:17:36] It can also be wonderfully simple. One of the biggest questions I always ask is just Does this bring me joy? So if I think about marketing, do I enjoy what I do? And do I like talking about it? Do I like sharing it? Do I like who I'm sharing with it? And what is the response? If people are responding to me, am I glad to hear what they have to say? [00:17:55] Or am I like, Oh, like, I don't want to talk about that product again. Or I don't want to talk about that. That [00:18:00] launch, or I don't want to talk at all, or I don't want to be on that platform. So noticing like, is this bringing you joy and what are, you know, and even just taking it down to like, what is a small step that you can take to bring you joy, to bring joy back into that process? [00:18:15] Sarah: I feel like it's a lot of unlearning from, you know, the mainstream hardwired. Stuff that was just kind of like, yeah, ingrained into our brains because patriarchy or whatever system capitalism told us, well, this is how success looks like. And now we're being asked to go and question all these assumptions and say, well, you know, maybe that's true for me, but maybe not. [00:18:41] And so how do I, how do I redefine it? And then look at the look, look at the ways. And I guess that's where goal setting comes in, because that's another topic we, we said we were going to address. Because that, yeah, if you talk about [00:19:00] success, then immediately, then there's all these gurus who are going to teach you how to reach your goals, be very aggressive with your goals and how to reach them and productivity and all of that. [00:19:11] And so I guess if we redefine our success, then we still need to somehow work towards these goals. But how do we, yeah, how are we more gentle in that process with, uh, approaching it with, uh, a quantum approach, I guess. [00:19:30] Patrick: Yeah. Well, one of the things I really think about is just keeping it really simple. And the idea of success as being joy or being like, I find joy in my work and I find joy in my life and I know that I am enough. [00:19:44] Almost looking like what is the emotional state of success and what does that look like? And how do you sit in that space? You always get more of what you are and what you do. So if you're sitting in a space and you bring yourself into the space of I'm going to find the joy in what I'm doing. [00:20:00] And I'm going to know on the inside that I am successful. [00:20:03] Guess it's, it's also, I find it really reassuring and refreshing to go back to this place of. This is all just a dream and it doesn't really matter whether my message reaches a million people or if it never even sort of leaves my office. If I write a book and I love the book that I wrote and I don't share it with anyone versus I write a book and the book gets read all over the world by seven billion people. [00:20:28] Not one of those is not more successful than the other from a quantum perspective. It's not like, oh, well, that's that's societal conditioning is okay. Your book is only successful if it reaches a certain number of people. Your book doesn't ever even have to be written. Your book can be the idea of writing a book and loving the idea of writing a book. [00:20:45] That can be enough for you. So it's really that sense of, okay, just remembering. It's all a dream. Everything is part of me. I'm choosing to have whatever experience I want. We're all celebrities. We're all the main stars of our own lives. So there's [00:21:00] no brownie points or bonus points for, you know, Oh, this book was read by 30, 000 people. [00:21:05] This was read by 1000 people. It doesn't matter. What really matters is how you feel about it on the inside. So that's one of the things I think about is shifting the goalpost and making the goalpost very much around emotions and making it around creativity and expression. Just really what consciousness is all about is like, I, you know, how are you expressing yourself in the world? [00:21:26] What are you creating? What do you see around you? And are you enjoying it? Do you like it? You know, you don't have to, if you don't like what you see around you, then that's probably a good clue that there's some things that are going on inside that are asking for your attention. [00:21:41] Sarah: Again, such a big shift from these left brain goals that come with numbers and figures and stats and all of that, right? [00:21:50] To tap into the right brain and the feelings and the heart and, and, and look at quality over quantity. Uh, and, [00:22:00] and it, yeah, it really is this reframing that is. Not easy to do if we were not surrounded with people who also think like that if we're looking outside and you know, let's say we're in a corporate, uh, situation. [00:22:14] Well, everything is measured by KPIs and goals and profit and numbers and everything like that. So, um, we're lucky that we're in the entrepreneurial world, but even there, even there, it's, it's a lot of, um, left brain thinking when it comes to. To goals. I like your I like what you keep repeating. This is just a dream and it reminded me of a vacation. [00:22:41] Um, we used to live in California in, uh, in Irvine, which is Southern California and kind of a bubble, right? And so we went back to the kids were smaller. We were living there in 2006. And so we went back in 2019. And my Yeah. My eldest, um, he [00:23:00] looks around and everything is kind of man made compared to Europe where, you know, there's a lot of history and old and, and he keeps, he kept saying, I think we're in a simulation. [00:23:14] I love your sentence about it's just a dream. Yeah, it's like we're in a simulation, you know, it's my simulation that I, uh, that I'm creating. And I think another sentence that comes to me is that I'm kind of using, uh, for myself often is just a reminder of not taking myself too seriously. Like, don't take yourselves too seriously because That's part of the, the issue with the goal setting and the ambition and, you know, the productivity and all of that is like, we're taking ourselves too seriously. [00:23:47] And we're taking the, maybe the wrong things too seriously, you know, like, yeah, the goals and the, the achievements rather than the joy and the, the, the journey [00:24:00] and just a small little things, uh, in, in the everyday process. [00:24:06] Patrick: Absolutely. And I mean, that simulation sense that is definitely very quantum, really that feeling of like, I'm, you know, I guess negatively it could be framed as I'm in the matrix. [00:24:15] I think it's really positive though, that sense of, wow, I'm creating every second of every day. I'm creating the world around me and I'm making this experience and it's all part of me and I'm doing it. That real sense of I choose my reality and I get to create it and I get to set the rules. And, you know, what rules from society or that I've learned, am I going to accept and what rules am I not going to accept is true, which is really what makes change in the world around us. [00:24:42] I think it's also really fascinating how you mentioned to this, even in the entrepreneurial world, we get this sense of like, these are the milestones that you cross through, or this is the path that you walk. These are the metrics. Again, we have another definition of success. So I was thinking one of the things that can be really helpful if you're in a transition [00:25:00] state is yeah sure those metrics are there and we can't ignore that they're there or that society's expecting this so we can look at them maybe they give us a certain amount of data it's not to say oh don't check and see how many people are you know visiting your site or don't look in your bank account or don't see how many people read your newsletter that can be valuable and helpful. [00:25:20] You know, it can be a it's how it's I guess it's data point that helps you to locate where you are, but that's by no means the full picture. So I almost imagine having like in this transition phase, like parallel indicators where you might be like, Okay, well, I'm gonna look at You know what traffic is coming to my website or how many people purchase my product or my course, and I'm also going to have my own metrics on how much did I enjoy this? [00:25:45] How many new people did I meet? How many wonderful conversations did I have? How did this enrich my life? Uh, What service did this offer to the world? Uh, you know, really looking at those, those more personalized metrics versus just [00:26:00] attaching ourselves to some of those other metrics of success, because if we do that, then again, we disconnect from our own truth and we're not able to create, you know, we always have that creative power, but if we've decided this is what success is, then we really don't have creative power to access outside of that predetermined notion. [00:26:18] Sarah: Yeah, and I'm rethinking back to a conversation I had with a with a potential client and she was kind of in this. Also this world about, uh, left brain and right brain thinking and, and I had shared with her, you know, kind of my struggles with wanting to, you know, have a certain number of people in the humane marketing circle and, and, and knowing that that's not, you know, that's again, quantity over quality, but still kind of being brainwashed with this idea. [00:26:52] Oh, you You know, I, I wish we had this many people in the, in the circle. And, and so, um, she told me and I [00:27:00] wrote it down on a post it note. She's like, well, what did you think of it more like us? This is a step or this step is in service to the vision. So like always coming back to the bigger vision, why you're offering what you're offering. [00:27:15] Right. And that is really helping me to feel like, well. Yeah, it's not about the number. It's about the vision and why I'm doing what I'm doing. Um, and, and yes, being in service of that. Every little step, every little conversation is in service of that, um, bigger vision. So yeah, that really resonated with me [00:27:40] Patrick: as well. [00:27:41] Yeah, I love that the natural next step, just that sense of all you need to know is one next step to take. And in the quantum structure too, one of the things I really think about is you can have this huge vision, which is a wonderful motivation and a dream. Then you can take tiny actions that sort of encompass the fullness of that [00:28:00] vision, right? [00:28:00] So if you have this sense of, I want a community and I wanna reach people and I want to be changing people's hearts and minds and lives and what's one little thing that I could do? So it might be, you know, inviting one more person to join the circle. Or it might not be, it might be you get to that stage of actually it feels like that wouldn't be the natural next step. [00:28:19] You know, it can be that like growing the cer the community up to a certain point. is, you know, sort of the natural next step. And then you'll also know when that feels right. And when that feels complete and that vision that you, that the bigger vision that you have will then want other actions. But it's really that sense of, are you feeding it with joy? [00:28:38] Are you coming back to this bigger picture? Are you coming back to the truth? That's such an important question. And if you don't, then that's when you kind of. You know, these getting lost in the treadmill, the one of the questions I really think about. I remember when I was working for a law firm, um, someone described the, the, I guess the attainment of partnership, which was after like 10 years of working for a firm and the [00:29:00] like small talk and busy talk at this firm was basically about how. [00:29:03] People were unhappy. Everyone just talked about how unhappy they were. And someone told me that becoming a partner at a law firm is like being in a 10 year pie eating contest. And then you just win more pie at the end. It was like, of course, that's like the last thing that you want, right? So you get more of what you do. [00:29:22] So if you're doing even these small actions that are feeling really resonant and feel joyful and are in service of the vision, um, that really does create. That next experience for you. [00:29:37] Sarah: Yeah, there's, there's one thing, um, that we kind of danced around, but we, we talked about the positive aspect. And then of course, if we bring more of this scarcity or fear, then the logical thing that we attract is also more scarcity or more fear. [00:29:58] Um, and yet, [00:30:00] you know, the practical side of me always knows, yes, but, You know, there's there's situations where people are just asking, Well, how do I just pay my bills? I just need to pay my bills. So how is quantum marketing going to work for me, uh, to to make sure that I have enough and without, you know, sliding into the scarcity and fear. [00:30:24] Patrick: Yeah, when I think about that, I really think about that transitional phase of being, you know, be where you are, start where you are. If you feel like I need to pay my bills and I have this job and these are the metrics that I need to meet. And this is what I need to keep doing. Sure, you can have that going. [00:30:39] And then when you are adding more things on to that. So as you are taking on new projects, or if you feel really inspired about something, or you have another idea outside of that, then just start playing with that idea of, okay, well, what if I just did this with a much lighter touch? What if I just, let's say that I remember when we were talking before I used it to an [00:31:00] example of like tomato sauce. [00:31:01] Like, let's say that I have a tomato sauce that I really like in my house and I want to promote this tomato sauce and I want to do it from the heart. So I want to do it because I love this tomato sauce and I associate it with my family dinners and it's. Fresh and it's organic and it's healthy and it's the best thing I've ever had. [00:31:20] I'm so excited about it. Maybe my cousin made this tomato sauce even. So let's say I'm like, okay, I'm going to start telling people about this tomato sauce, and I'm just going to make this my project. And I'm going to see how it goes. And I'm going to see what I can learn from this. I'm going to rediscover that joy of, you know, share, sharing a product and sharing an experience and sharing emotions and do it in this way. [00:31:41] And the more that you start doing that, the more that that starts becoming available in other parts of your life. So it's more that that sense that that feeling of what you have to do suddenly starts to shift as you realize, wait a second, like I've actually been promoting my cousin's tomato sauce. all over town. [00:31:58] And now like their business is [00:32:00] booming. Who would have thought, you know, now this tomato sauce is everywhere and everyone's enjoying it. And I'm, I didn't do this with any expectations. I didn't, maybe I didn't even do this for money. I just did it because I loved it. And I love talking about it. So really that sense of rediscovering that, seeing how it works, playing around with it. [00:32:17] Or even just kind of taking a little, if you have like a little mini product that you wanted to launch on top of what you're already doing and just do that from a place of joy. Or if you want to start baking cookies and bringing them around and that sense of, I wanted to offer you this, it's just that feeling of, I'm offering you something from the heart without any conditions. [00:32:35] So I'm not playing the success game. I'm not playing the, like, I need to hit 10, 000. I'm out of that picture. I'm not in that kind of conditioning treadmill. And knowing that that's another way to be and another way to work. And as you do that more and more and you see how it gets reflected back to you and you see the joy that you create in the world, then you start to feel safer to do things a little bit differently. [00:32:59] And it starts to [00:33:00] feel okay to maybe let go of some of those targets or some of those numbers and to start shifting the way that you do. Yeah. [00:33:09] Sarah: I talk about the transition also in the Marketing Like We're Human book at the end. It's like, well, how do you transition from hustle marketing and, you know, these manipulative techniques that get you the money in because they work, right? [00:33:23] The fear and the scarcity, it works. So how do I let that go and still am able to pay my bills? And I also say, well, it's a slow transition. So get rid of. Some of the hustling stuff that you just really cannot touch anymore and bring more of the joyful humane marketing and but don't do it from one day to the other, where then you're in scarcity because you can't pay your bills anymore. [00:33:53] So what I hear from you is like, this is the same. It's like, you gotta make sure that you're safe, you know, you, you have [00:34:00] to have your bills paid. And then you start a little playground with, uh, with the quantum marketing. I see it like a playground. It's like, oh, I go into my playground and, you know, make my sauce or whatever it is. [00:34:13] Um, and, and yeah, start feeling how this feels different. And then slowly you can bring some of that into Into your main activity or business. I [00:34:24] Patrick: really like that. Absolutely. I guess for me, it's almost that sense of realizing that you are in a playground. You've just been trapped in the jungle gym, just climbing around and around and around that same space. [00:34:34] And then suddenly as you open your eyes and you see there are other things to do, and there are other people to engage with. And eventually what I think about that scarcity marketing is if you're marketing from a place of scarcity and fear, you're going to be meeting people who are in a place of scarcity and fear. [00:34:49] And especially with the scarcity idea, this is not going to be a sustainable long term audience. If you're in a place of scarcity, then you're meeting people in a. And so I think that's the biggest [00:35:00] thing. And I think that's the and purchasing and making that long term committed relationship and really connecting with you as a person. [00:35:06] They're just buying out of a sense of fear or I don't have enough. Or what do I do? Or I have to get it now. That's not a long term, sustainable pattern. That's not that sense of this infinite playground that the quantum structure really is. That's a very limited version of I guess creativity and all of those conditions just make it really difficult to advance. [00:35:26] Thanks. [00:35:27] Sarah: Yeah, so true. It's, it's like this. never ending loop because you can't stop hustling because the, the people just, they, yeah, they don't stay, they don't become part of your sustainable long term business. You have to keep acquiring new people with the, with the hustling [00:35:46] Patrick: methods. Yeah. And you're connected over fear. [00:35:49] Is that what you want to connect with people over? That's one of the biggest quantum questions is whatever you're connecting with people over, you're emphasizing more in yourself. It's like what you're broadcasting out into the world. [00:36:00] So if you're really going to go into your own fear and scarcity and broadcast that in the world around you, sure, you might be able to make money. [00:36:07] You're also going to feel afraid and scarce, and probably you feel like you don't have enough. And you'll be terrified that your next project won't work out well. So really being aware of what is the emotional imprint that you are bringing in any situation, which is why similarly, I think you're very wise to say, like, don't quit your, you know, like your kind of day job now in order to immediately try this new thing. [00:36:28] Because if you do that, then you're going to go into a place of fear and scarcity. And if you're kind of dropping your vibration into fear and scarcity, that's what you're attracting in the world around you. It's really that sense of how do I hold the joy? How do I hold the creativity? How do I hold the play? [00:36:44] And how do I bring that in to what I'm already doing? And also, you know, kind of bring it in to choose projects that are bringing that [00:36:54] Sarah: so much. So lovely. Um, I think I want to ask one kind of [00:37:00] wrapping up question, like where can people find out more about quantum marketing? What, what kind of tools are there? [00:37:07] Like where does One start to find out more about these, um, the concept, the techniques, et cetera. [00:37:17] Patrick: That's a great question. I don't know that I have seen anything that's directly focused on quantum marketing. There are many things that are out there that talk about the quantum structure and quantum manifestation. [00:37:28] I also work with people directly. Um, as a coach and more and more, I'm starting to share my work and starting to share it in conversations. And I think I'll eventually have a quantum cafe, uh, YouTube channel coming out. We've got a few things I've already recorded. So I think maybe this is one of the things that I'm here to, to bridge or to help share in the world more generally. [00:37:50] So I'm always happy to have a conversation with anyone who's in this marketing world and wanting to figure out where they go next or how to bring more joy and light. [00:38:00] Into their, into their marketing, how to really appreciate the dream that we're all experiencing together and to really get in touch with those internal states and how we broadcast them. [00:38:11] Um, so I think it's pretty cutting edge. I don't know that I, I've seen [00:38:16] Sarah: a book. I should have looked it up. I've seen a book called quantum marketing. Let me just, why don't you share your website, uh, and where people can find you while I, uh, kind of Google the quantum marketing book. [00:38:31] Patrick: Yeah, please do. So my website is, uh, still waters dot space. [00:38:36] So www dot S T I L L W a T E R S dot S P A C E. [00:38:44] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you. Yeah. And I found it. It's called quantum marketing, mastering the new marketing mindset. For Tomorrow's Consumers and it's by Raja, Raja Man, uh, Raja Manar. Raja, Raja Manar. [00:39:00] [00:39:00] Patrick: Okay. How interesting. I'll have to check it out. [00:39:03] Sarah: Yeah, we'll definitely link to it in the show notes. [00:39:05] So we both haven't read it, but it's probably an interesting read, [00:39:09] Patrick: so. Yeah, and from the quantum structure, I can recommend one of my teachers, Marina Jacobi. Marina, and the last name's J A C O B I. She has a website, marinajacoby. com. She talks about quantum manifestation. Her work is amazing. It's all donation based. [00:39:25] She has six seasons worth of video. She does regular Q& As. She also talks a lot about the quantum structure and how we work within that quantum structure. So for me, this is, quantum marketing is almost kind of like a look at what does marketing mean in this bigger picture of quantum manifestation. [00:39:41] Because of course, like, what we're marketing is what we're manifesting. And whether, whether we're experiencing 10, 000 people buying our book or one person buying our book, this is all the reality that we've chosen. So for me, it's that kind of bigger awareness of what information is this giving me? Where am I locating myself [00:40:00] within the quantum structure and how do I feel about it? [00:40:03] And then this practical sense of like, well, what are actions that I can take that can bring me into greater truth and authenticity? So I hope that this book also also has that bigger perspective. I've noticed that quantum has become a very trendy word and that it doesn't always. I guess I wouldn't say that it always correlates to what I understand as the quantum structure. [00:40:24] This said, I would imagine there, yeah, there, there could well be a plethora of things that are out there for us to explore. And of course we created them, right, Sarah? You know, there's like, we, we are the same person. So anything you wrote, I wrote, anything I wrote, you wrote. So this person is also us. This book is also something that we wrote. [00:40:43] So it's us just accessing that, that universal knowledge. [00:40:47] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. So we'll, we'll add both links to the show notes and people can check out both of them. And of course your link as well. Um, this has been great. Thanks so much, Patrick. I always ask one [00:41:00] last question and that is, what are you grateful for this week? [00:41:04] Patrick: My gosh, um, I went to the dentist today and I was so grateful. Nobody has ever said that. I know, right? But I went down and I was lying for 30 minutes there and my daughter was with me and she was getting to really explore the office and see all of the different tools and the machinery. Had a really nice conversation with my dentist, who's just a lovely person. [00:41:27] I got my teeth all fresh and cleaned. I was lying down with these kind of dark glasses over my face for a little while. Well, my daughter was playing with my feet and I was like, you know what? This is just like being at the beach. This just feels heavenly. So it's like those little things, right? [00:41:43] Sarah: I just got a book of dentist appointment now to feel like lying at the beach. [00:41:48] Patrick: Why not? Right. Really with the light, the way it was all done, I just. [00:41:55] Sarah: I remember actually in California, um, it was really like that because they [00:42:00] had this paraffin solution next to you. And so you put your fingers in there and then, yeah, it was like, they, they peeled it off after they gave you a massage. I'm like, why can't all the dentists [00:42:12] Patrick: be like that? This is the dream. [00:42:15] Sarah: It was a simulation, I'm telling you. [00:42:19] Really great hanging out with you, Patrick. Thanks so much for being here. [00:42:22] Patrick: Thank you, such a pleasure. [00:42:31] Sarah: What did you think? I know partnering with the quantum is not for everyone, but it does always expand my mind to talk to Patrick, so I really hope you enjoyed it as well. You can find out more about Patrick and his work at stillwaters. space and If you're looking for others who think like you and maybe want to partner with the quantum or the universe or with each other, then why not join us [00:43:00] in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:43:01] You can find out more at humane. marketing. com and you find the show notes of this episode at Dot marketing forward slash H M one seven seven. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. [00:43:29] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet. We are change makers. Before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.
43:50 11/17/23
Grow Your Business with Authentic Outreach
In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we dive into the art of 'Authentic Outreach' with special guest Caroline Leon. We explore how reaching out genuinely can profoundly impact your business, especially for solo entrepreneurs. Caroline, a seasoned business coach, shares practical tips and strategies for making authentic connections, differentiating authentic outreach from traditional networking, and maintaining generosity in your outreach efforts. We discuss overcoming the unique challenges that introverts face and staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows. Caroline also shares real-life examples of how her business thrived through genuine outreach and offers actionable steps for anyone looking to implement more authentic outreach in their business. Whether you're a seasoned marketer or just starting, this episode provides valuable insights into building meaningful connections in today's business landscape. In this episode, we talked about: How reaching out genuinely can make a big difference in your business Tips for solo entrepreneurs on making real and meaningful connections Understanding the difference between reaching out and traditional networking The importance of being generous when reaching out Overcoming the challenges of reaching out, especially for introverts and sensitive individuals Staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows Approaches to connect with industry experts Real-life examples of how Caroline's business grew through authentic outreach Simple steps for getting started with authentic outreach And so much more Ep 176 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client and find out more at humane. [00:02:07] marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:29] Hello friends, welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of people and the P of promotion. If you're a regular here, you know, that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps at humane. [00:02:59] [00:03:00] marketing. com forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. Today I'm speaking to Caroline Leon about Authentic Outreach. Caroline is a business coach who specializes in supporting service based online business owners, such as coaches, healers, and teachers, to build and grow sustainable businesses. [00:03:30] She supports business owners to do away with the gross and manipulative tactics so prevalent these days online and instead adopt ethical growth strategies that put people before profits. In today's episode, we talked about how reaching out genuinely can make a big difference in your business. We mentioned tips for solo entrepreneurs on making real and meaningful connections. [00:03:58] Understanding the difference [00:04:00] between reaching out and traditional networking. The importance of being generous when reaching out. Overcoming the challenges of reaching out, especially for introverts and sensitive individuals. Staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows. Approaches to connect with industry experts, real life examples of how Caroline's business grew through authentic outreach, and then simple steps for getting started with this technique. [00:04:30] This conversation is really a preview of a workshop that I'm co hosting together with Caroline. She's the expert. We're doing a collab workshop once again, and that workshop takes place on November 8th. And, uh, yeah, we'd love for you to listen to this episode, see if it resonates and if it does, and you want more well. [00:04:54] Join us on November 8th. You can sign up at humane [00:05:00] dot marketing forward slash workshop There's a link to make a donation in the subscription The suggested price is 27 But you can give less or more according to the principle of maximum sustainable generosity And with no further ado, let's welcome Caroline Leon. [00:05:22] Hi caroline. So good to hang out with you Hey, sarah Thanks for coming to the Humane Marketing Podcast to talk about authentic outreach. Um, let's start with a kind of a definition what authentic outreach is and maybe compare it to the traditional networking or maybe even email marketing, kind of like cold emailing. [00:05:48] How is authentic outreach different? [00:05:51] Caroline: Yeah, good, great question. So, um, for me, I usually put it down to, um, a couple of things. It is often easier to describe what it isn't, um, [00:06:00] but I'll have a go at saying what it is first. So, um, I describe authentic outreach as making meaningful and genuine one to one connections with people in your network and wider audience, let's say. [00:06:14] Um, And so how it differs, you know, because when people hear that, they often think, oh, that's networking, isn't that, you know, and, and I always, I make a distinction between the two. So for me, networking often traditionally has this, um, element embedded in it, which is we're trying to get something from people. [00:06:31] I mean, we're working the network, you know, we're working our net, basically, that's what the word means. So, um, you know, we think lots of people think traditional networking, it's like, you know, standing at, um, um, um, You know, wine and cheese events, you know, handing out our business [00:06:47] Sarah: card and the stack of business cards in our [00:06:50] Caroline: jacket. [00:06:50] I'm just trying to, you know, get rid of as many as possible, you know. Um, so we're in that place of, like, self promotion, you know, how can I share with people [00:07:00] what I have to offer, what I've got to sell. Um, and the difference for me, the big difference, distinction between that and authentic outreach is we're not in it to get something. [00:07:09] Um, the, the, the fruits of authentic outreach are a happy byproduct I like to think of, of, of doing the work, but the goal really is connection and relationship. So, you know, we're in it to have. What I call an activated network, but we're not making those connections with something in mind. I mean, I like to think of, you know, going into any connection that I do, whether it's with, you know, former clients, colleagues, looking for some kind of win win. [00:07:39] You know, if we can have a meaningful connection that is fruitful to both of us. And that could just be the beauty of the connection. It doesn't, you know, have to mean. Something like a podcast interview or a client or something like that. It just, it, it's, it's making those genuine connections and building relationships that then, you know, are [00:08:00] rooted in some level of trust. [00:08:01] Which of course, if we think about business, it's wonderful. If we think about business as it was pre the internet, you know, that's how the most successful local businesses. They were the ones who had really lovely connections with the local community and that's how it, that's how it worked. It's kind of happened back to those days, those pre social media [00:08:23] Sarah: days. [00:08:24] Exactly like, you know, there was a world before social media. And it was, yeah, business owners were building on these connections. To me, when you, when I hear outreach, um, and then I hear you talk about it, Connections, building these lovely connections outreach to me is, is kind of like, it sounds like it's the first step of building the connection because the word outreach kind of, you know, has that meaning of the first thing. [00:08:56] But you're talking, are you talking only about that first time? [00:09:00] Or is outreach then also something that, you know, builds into, yeah, connection and relationships? Yeah. What is it that, um, that you're talking about? I'm assuming both, but I just want to be sure. Yeah, [00:09:16] Caroline: both. I mean, and I, and something I'm going to share in the workshop is like the stages of outreach. [00:09:21] You know, there's kind of three levels and, and the initial stage is really connecting for the sake of connection. Um, and, and it's not always, you know, people hear outreach and they think it's new people. It's people I don't know, but most people are sat on. A huge network that they, of people maybe that they've worked with in the past, old colleagues, old, you know, acquaintances, people that they've forgotten that they had meaningful relations with. [00:09:49] So, you know, a lot of what I teach is about reconnection. It's not always making new connections. Sometimes it's reactivating a connection that has. You know, gone, gone quiet. [00:10:00] And we all, if we're honest, have those people that we think, Oh, maybe it's been too long. I really wish I'd kept in touch with that person. [00:10:06] I really, you know, but now it feels too, you know, like too much time has passed. I have this personal rule because, you know, I can let time pass, which is it's never too long. To reach back out to somebody, um, and with that approach, you know, and I'm talking here from a personal perspective and also, you know, from a business perspective, um, I've reignited some really beautiful connections that otherwise I would have just let them, you know, let them fizzle out and disappear. [00:10:37] Sarah: I think sometimes we're embarrassed to reach back out, but yet if you do it in a Transparent and meaningful way, then I would say probably, probably almost 10 times out of 10, if not nine times, or if not more, then the connection, you know, establishes again, because it's just human and we all have, [00:11:00] you know, full lives and so it's not like people are going to say, Oh, you haven't been in touch for a year and now I'm not going to talk to you again. [00:11:07] So, so yeah, I hear you. It's like reconnecting. Um, and then, yeah, you mentioned these three stages. Another thing you mentioned is the intention that is so from the networking, right? So it's obviously, I think there's also, you know, it's always, at least in, in, in our realm here, it's business related. So yes, it is. [00:11:33] Some kind of intention that this is a business relationship, but it's not that client cold calling relationship where we're just going for the money. [00:11:44] Caroline: Yeah, I mean, I'd love to speak because you said, um. You mentioned the words transparent and meaningful when we were just talking about personal connections and I would say that absolutely follows through to the business, you know, outreach that I talk about. [00:11:58] And that's one of the [00:12:00] areas that people really struggle with because it's like, how can I be transparent and how can it be meaningful or how can I make these connections without people thinking? She's after something, um, you know, or like there's some hidden motive and I think that's a huge fear that a lot of people have about outreach and it's something that, you know, I go into quite a lot when I, you know, teach this stuff, um, because that's That's, that's, I think that's what, most people know it makes sense to have an activated network and that they should be getting from behind their screens and actually talking to people. [00:12:33] But I think that fear of how is it going to come across, how, how do I even do? What do I even say? It's the how. It's the how. How and who, I think. Often, as well, I talk to a lot of people and they're like, I, I have a tiny network. I mean, that's probably the first thing that people say to me when I bring this topic up with one to one clients. [00:12:53] You know, it's like, I don't know, I don't have that many people. And it always makes me smile because I said the same thing to my coach like [00:13:00] 12 years ago when I first started working on this stuff. And I love really digging in also into that, into the who is it, um, who is it and how, you know, do you tell your messages accordingly, you know, to the people that you're reaching out to, but I think they're the two big stumbling blocks for people. [00:13:17] It's like, I don't know. First of all, I don't even know who to reach out to in a business. Set in. And secondly, even if I do know who, I dunno what to say, I dunno how to say it, that comes across as transparent [00:13:28] Sarah: and meaningful. Yeah. Well, maybe can you kind of give us an example, a story from a client that, uh, or your yourself, right. [00:13:37] Where you're like, oh, I figured out the who and I figured out that what, and kind of give us a really practical example of, of how that looked like. [00:13:47] Caroline: Yeah. I mean, uh, let's have a think so, um, Well, I'll give, yeah, I'll give you one from mine because this is a classic. And I think, I think Ellie, Ellie Trio has been in the, yeah, in [00:14:00] the network, you're well aware. [00:14:01] Um, so years and years ago, I was doing some outreach and part of my outreach was, um, Uh, you know, reaching out to people I didn't know, people that I admired, um, on, on the internet, you know, part of it was about expanding my network and meeting new people also, which for me as a raging introvert and a highly sensitive person is not easy, um, and I can talk about that as well. [00:14:22] Um. And I saw, Ellie and I had both been featured in the same, on the same website. We'd both been interviewed for My Morning Routine. I think it's mymorningroutine. com. And I had been published, mine had been published like the week prior, I think. And then hers came up and I was, you know, on the newsletter. [00:14:39] And I thought, oh my goodness, I love this woman. She's British, she's a painter, she loves cats. We had a similar health condition. Um, I'm going to just reach out to her and tell her that I loved her interview. That, you know, I thought it was lovely. Um, you know, I just wanted to let her know that I was inspired by her interview and her work. [00:14:57] And Ellie and now, Ellie and I [00:15:00] have been business like besties for now. I mean, it's got to be close to a decade, uh, since I made that out, which we've been mastermind partners. We've, um, we've for, for years, we meet on the regular, we send each other clients. We, I mean, it's just been a relationship that has not stopped giving. [00:15:20] Um, and it came from one little message that I sent out, you know, years and years ago. So that's one. I mean, I've got others, but [00:15:27] Sarah: yeah, that's, that's... Yeah, I, I actually, um, thought of one because, um, Rachel, uh, Cumberland Dad, who's in the Humane Marketing Circle and Who Knows You, and who actually was in one of your programs, learned this outreach, right? [00:15:43] Connected with me. did exactly what you just said with, with Ellie and you know, my brother, well, she, she joined one of my programs. She's in the circle and now she's a certified humane marketing coach, right? And because I just love her and love what she [00:16:00] does. And that's, that's what can happen. Yeah. You come in from this, I just. [00:16:07] You know, I just want to tell you how great you are. I just, and not in a, in a spooky kind of creepy way, but in a real authentic way. And then, and then these partnerships and collaborations start to happen. Yeah, [00:16:23] Caroline: I mean, and I could, I refer to them often as like love notes, you know, dropping love bombs. And you know, sometimes it's more, um, You know, that's, and that's where we get into the how and the who, because that's someone, you know, that you've never met before, someone that you admire, so it's going to be slightly different to if you're writing to an old client or an old colleague that you haven't been in touch with for a while, so sometimes you can, you know, another example that I give often is, you know, to just to write to someone and say, Hey, I thought of you today and I know it's been, you know, forever. [00:16:53] I just wondered how you are, if you feel like, let me know what's up in your world. I'd love to hear. That's it. It's super [00:17:00] simple. It's genuine, you know, um, and people are touched that they're in your thoughts. People don't think with some, if you receive a note like that, I don't think you think what's this person's game, you know, like what's going on here. [00:17:13] It's so much easier, I think, to be genuine than we think, because when we're doing something in a business. context, we immediately, because of the dysfunctional online world that we swim in often, you know, we have this fear, I'm going to come across as I'm trying to sell something, I'm going to come across as I'm trying to get something from this person, um, and it, and it, and it, um, interferes with our ability to just be as genuine as that, really super simple, no, no attachment, you know, little, no. [00:17:45] One [00:17:45] Sarah: thing that, that I'm thinking of as you're speaking is, is the idea of time and kind of being patient and slowing down this process. Because I do, just as you were speaking, [00:18:00] I'm like, Hmm, I guess if Rachel, you know, would have reached out to me saying what she did. And then a week later, you know, she would have said something else. [00:18:09] And can you be, you know, can I be on your podcast or whatever it was. Then I would have probably started to think, hmm, you know, what is this? What's the intention here? Where if we just kind of, yeah, organically grow the relationship and realize that it starts out with giving more than, than immediately going to the ask. [00:18:33] Then I think we're building something for the long term. Otherwise, unfortunately, as human beings, we're just so used to the pitches that we're like... Immediately we're like, is there going to be a pitch? And then if there isn't, you know, then it's like, Oh, I can relax. Yeah. [00:18:51] Caroline: And you know, I often use the analogy of like dating or even, you know, making friends in the, in the real world. [00:18:57] You know, we often think that like [00:19:00] relationship creation or development in the business world is like something that we were like, I don't know how to do it. And it's like, well, how do you date people? How do you make friends with, you know, Someone in your yoga class, you know, you do. You, it's exactly as you described, it's slow and organic if it's effective, you know, if you, if you go on a date and then you're texting that person every, you know, every, every second hour after the date, then it's going to go, exactly. [00:19:27] So it's, we know these skills, it's just they sometimes go out the window when we're in business because we, we have this kind of panic about what we should be doing or how we should be navigating. And, and I think a balance that. that I, I teach when I teach this work is the balance between being strategic about our outreach, because we have to remember, of course, it is a business activity, you know, is something we're doing in service to our business, but with also holding it loosely, you know, so sometimes people will say to me, you know, should I keep a spreadsheet and have, you know, and then reach out to [00:20:00] people every so often. [00:20:01] And I'm like, you can, if you want, for some people, they need that, you know, it really, for me, it's always been much easier to just be. More organic with it, you know, if somebody, um, keeps coming back up to the surface, you know, that person, I keep thinking about that person, it's like, it's, then it's genuine for me to reach out versus I've looked at my spreadsheet and I can see, oh, it's been six months since I reached out to that person, I'll, Um, now I'll reach out to them so that, but there's always a dance, I think, with that because of course, you know, we're, we're, it's, we're working, we are in business. [00:20:34] And so [00:20:35] Sarah: yeah, it's that heart and mind combination. Right? And I, I feel like for me, for past clients, it's just the heart that operates because they, I just, you know, naturally think of them again, and then I'll reconnect with, um, with kind of these strategical partners where, I'm like, yeah, I really want to invest time in building the [00:21:00] relationship. [00:21:00] Some kind of strategy or spreadsheet does help me. Um, because the relationship is new and fresh, where clients it's already established. And so it's more natural just to, hey, how have you been? [00:21:15] Caroline: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a really great point. When I first, you know, started doing outreach in my business many years ago, I used to have outreach. [00:21:22] Scheduled in my diary was something that I had to almost force myself to do as a habit I had to develop because it wasn't natural to me as an introvert, you know, I'm I'm much more inclined to not Do that what's been freeing for me actually is that I am much more sociable In online than I am in real life. [00:21:42] You know, I'm the person who are like going to go down the back street to avoid seeing people on the way to the shops, but online it's much easier because there is that distance, of course, that physical distance. So it feels safer. Um, and yeah, I think, um, just, um, you know, trust in that is [00:22:00] important. [00:22:01] Sarah: Yeah. [00:22:01] Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the introvert thing because, um, well, as you know, I'm, I'm a fellow introvert and highly sensitive. And it's true that connecting online is obviously always easier. Um, I also like that most of your outreach, I guess sometimes it leads to calls, but not every time, right? It's not like this thing where all of a sudden your calendar is scheduled full with all these coffee chats, which... [00:22:31] Is not how I intend to fill my day. So, so it's like really finding what works for you. Or extroverted you might like to talk to people. More often, but [00:22:42] Caroline: it's yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, it's something that Ellie tree says about this that I'd love she talked about, you know, honing your kindred spirit radar when it comes to, you know, making connections with people. [00:22:53] And so there will be people who it feels more. effort, like an effort to reach out to maybe there's some fear or [00:23:00] there's some, you know, hesitation. And there are some people that you're just like, I love this person. I love getting on the call with this person. This is not, you know, difficult. And I think also honoring that if it feels too forced or if it feels too, um, You know, too much of an effort for you, um, then, you know, we can, we can look at that also and we can honor that because I think, again, going back to, you know, real life relationships, you know, we don't force ourselves to become friends with a woman in the yoga class if we don't want to, you know, we, that's something that we, we choose because we enjoy that person, and I think that's as equally as important in the business context, [00:23:39] Sarah: um. [00:23:41] What would you say, how much How important is confidence in this whole thing? [00:23:48] Caroline: That's a good question. I don't... So I have a view on confidence, which is that we're all born confident. You know, I always talk about like, um, you know, [00:24:00] babies aren't comparing themselves as they're trying to learn to walk and things like that, you know. [00:24:04] So we're all born with, I think, a well of confidence. What gets covered up... Uh, our, our, you know, our confidence gets covered up with the thoughts and the doubts and the, you know, um, and the inner, the, you know, the chat, the inner critic and all of that stuff. So for me it's like, My approach to this sort of stuff is, is to just go for it and see what happens, you know, like if I'm feeling, you know, something is, feels like a scary outreach to make, of course, you know, we're all, we're all going to face resistance. [00:24:34] If there's someone in our industry, for example, and we think I really should make connection with that person, but I'm worried, you know, um, they won't respond or, um, we may resist. Um, and I think it's, I think for me more than, you know, I've got to be confident in order to do this. I think it's just being aware of, where am I resisting, you know, doing this or making this outreach. [00:24:57] Um, and just being gentle with [00:25:00] yourself about it. I mean, my thing is, the more I've done outreach, the more, the less, um, way I give to it. It's more, and that's the other thing as well as I think, you know, one of the things that I teach is, is to do a bit of a posh on outreach in the beginning so that you get over those fears of every message I send has got to be perfect. [00:25:20] Everything has got to be really thought out. So in the beginning, I do like to get people to do a kind of, you know, an intensive of outreach just to get over those. It's perfectionist tendencies where it's like I have to, I have to sit and think about every single word in this message before I send it. [00:25:38] Um, so I, I like to set people a little challenge on that. Um, and I think that really helps get people over the, the doubts, you know, or the fear. [00:25:48] Sarah: Yeah, no, I, I, I think you're right. Um, I do feel like there is this tendency for people to. Who am I to reach out to this person? Um, [00:26:00] and so I do feel like confidence has to do it or, and that's the other approach, just coming from this perspective, I talk always about, you know, doing everything like we're human. [00:26:11] And so just looking at the human, not at the business, because reach out like a business owner. Automatically, it will feel staged if you reach out as a human and consider the other human also as a human, not, you know, some famous person who's, you know, business is according to you doing 10 times better than yours. [00:26:35] Yeah, just put them on the same level as you because you're both human. Then I feel like the outreach is going to be much more natural and authentic, [00:26:44] Caroline: so. Yeah, and also though, if you're taking away the ask, which we do in authentic outreach, then we're not asking this person for something. So in that scenario, if there's someone who I... [00:26:55] you know, look up to, that's a mentor, a teacher, you know, I'm not going to write [00:27:00] to them and say, Hey, do you want to have a virtual coffee with me? Because they're probably way too busy and what's in it for them to do that. But I might write to them and say, knowing full well, I may never hear back from them. [00:27:10] They may not even manage their own inbox. I mean, I've done that many times with people who I think, I don't even think they check their own emails. They're that, you know, big. And I'll just tell them, thank you. Thank you for the impact that you've had in my life. You know, I, I, I, I really appreciate your work and I wanted to let you know who doesn't [00:27:27] Sarah: want to receive that. [00:27:29] Who doesn't like that. Yeah. [00:27:30] Caroline: So then I think that takes away that, who am I, too? Because of course, you know, anybody can give a compliment. That's, you know, even the people who seem like they're, you know. out there making multiple six figures and have huge audiences. They, they're, you know, they will, people always, you know, welcome that kind [00:27:49] Sarah: of feedback. [00:27:50] Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, you mentioned that you like to set people a little challenge and I know you have a seven day outreach challenge on your website. So I just want to [00:28:00] mention that and that's available at carolynleon. com outreach challenge resources. And of course, we also want to mention the workshop that we're doing together on November 8th. [00:28:14] So you can find out more about that at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Um. These are donation based or, um, and we have a suggested price of 27, but there's also a pay what you can, uh, option. So, uh, we just would love for everyone to join us. And as you can tell, there's a lot more that can be covered. [00:28:39] And we're really going to go into more of the how right here. Kind of what we looked at is the why and how it's different. But, uh, what you're going to share with us, um, you talked about these three stages. Do they have names, these stages, Caroline? Um, [00:28:57] Caroline: well, the name is in the, in the, you [00:29:00] know, in what they are, but no, not, [00:29:02] Sarah: not, not one word names. [00:29:04] Okay. Yeah. So, so, um, we're, we're just really excited to go deeper into this topic of, um, of Outreach. Any, any last tips you'd like to, like, where could people start? Like, what's one challenge you can give them after listening to this episode? [00:29:23] Caroline: I, I would say reach out to someone you admire on the internet and just, you know. [00:29:28] Like a thank you. Yeah, and, and send them a thank you note. You know, a genuine note of appreciation. I think that it feels lovely to do it. The thing I love about that is it's lovely on both sides. So [00:29:39] Sarah: it really is. I just got one yesterday from a client. Um, I, so this was a client, but it's still nice to, you know, years later, I, I barely remember her. [00:29:50] She's like, Oh, I just want to thank you for the impact you had. I'm like, Oh, that's so nice. Just, it makes your day, right? So. Yeah, go and make [00:30:00] someone's day. Beautiful. Um, yeah, I'll mention your website again. Uh, Caroline, is it Leon? It's Spanish. [00:30:12] And, uh, the workshop is at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Please join us on November 8th. We'd love to have you there. Thanks so much for being here, Caroline. Thanks for having me. [00:30:30] I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Find out more about Caroline and her work at www. carolineleon. com and check out her 7 Day Outreach Challenge at www. carolineleon. com forward slash outreach dash Challenge dash resources. And of course, please join us for the CoLab workshop, uh, about authentic outreach that takes place on November 8th [00:31:00] at 11:00 AM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM in the uk, and that is 5:00 PM Swiss time or uh, central European time. [00:31:10] You can sign up at Humane Marketing slash workshop. This is a simple zoom registration, but there's a donation link in the subscription. The suggested price is 27, but, uh, just give less or more according to this principle of maximum sustainable generosity, which basically means you give whatever you. Can at this moment to make it still sustainable for yourself. [00:31:41] You can do so before the workshop, but we'll also remind you again during and after the workshop. Please understand that the recording of this event is reserved for the Humane Marketing Circle. Members who pay a monthly membership fee, but, uh, get to attend all workshops for free and get access. [00:32:00] Which reminds me as well to let you know that, uh, Caroline is actually a member of the circle. [00:32:08] I don't think I've mentioned it before. And talking about the circle, if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle and get access to all the workshops for free. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com And you find the show notes of this episode at humane. [00:32:30] marketing. com Marketing forward slash H M 1 7 6. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. [00:32:56] We are change makers before we are marketers. So go [00:33:00] be the change you want to see.
33:05 11/3/23
Should you list prices on your website?
In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we dive into the ‘P’ of Pricing, exploring the art of authentic pricing conversations and strategies with our guest, Nikki Rausch, CEO of Sales Maven. Our conversation covers essential topics such as whether to list prices on your website, how to approach pricing objections, the delicate balance between transparency and personalization in pricing, and much more. Join us in this discussion as we strive to make pricing a humane and ethical aspect of our businesses. In this episode, we talked about: Whether we should list our prices on our website – or not How to have pricing conversations Whether to offer payment plans How to handle pricing objections And so much more Ep 175  Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today’s conscious customers because it’s humane, ethical, and non pushy.  I’m Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we’re human and selling like we’re human. If after listening to the show for a while, you’re ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn’t work in business.  Then we’d love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you’re picturing your  typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.  We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn’t work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.  Whether it’s for your marketing sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book, I’d love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost. 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this  podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client.  You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing.  Hello friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today’s conversation fits under the P of pricing. If you are a regular here, thank you so much. You already know that I’m organizing the conversations around the seven P’s of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, uh, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P’s of marketing at humane.  marketing forward slash one page. That’s  the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different areas, these different P’s in your business. So it’s not. Prescriptive, but it really helps you, uh, think deeply about these things in your business.  So today we’re talking about pricing and I’m talking to Nikki Roush. Nikki is the CEO of SalesMaven. Where she helps people transform the misunderstood process of selling with 25 plus years of selling experience, entrepreneurs and small business owners now hire Nikki to show them how to sell successfully and authentically.  Nikki has written three books, all available on Amazon, and she has a podcast called Sales Maven, which you can find on your favorite podcast platform. I. Really love this conversation. We talked about whether we should list our prices on our website or not,  how to have pricing conversations, whether to offer payment plans, how to handle pricings, objections, and so much more.  Be ready to take some notes for this ones and let’s dive in. Hi, Nikki. So good to spend time with you to talk about sales and. Pricing and putting prices and websites and all that good stuff. Welcome to the show.  Nikki: Thanks for having me, Sarah. I’m really excited to have this conversation with you.  Sarah: Yeah, same here.  As I said offline, this question about putting our prices on our website or not, it’s Whenever I bring this up in the humane marketing circle in our community, for example, it’s like, oh, really, should we and here’s why we shouldn’t and like, all these different opinions. So I’m curious to, yeah, to start off our conversation, maybe with the prices and, uh, you know, you mentioned, or  I think I’ve seen it on your, um, On your website, this idea of the customer journey, right?  And so take us a little bit into that customer journey. And when, what happens when people come to your website, what stage they’re at probably in the customer journey and what happens when they do see the prices or if they don’t see the prices.  Nikki: Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So I just want to start off by saying that, you know, what I teach is always built on rapport.  So I would say relationship first rapport always. So when somebody is coming to your website, they have indicated interest in some way, right? Like, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t just randomly go to somebody’s website and start poking around. So there’s something about them that has drawn them here. And that, that is usually an indication that they’re interested in working with you or, or buying from you or taking that next step with you.  And the reason you want to have  pricing on your website is because. It is helping them establish whether or not they’re an ideal client for you. So if somebody comes to your website and they don’t see prices, one of the things that they often assume is that your prices are much higher. And in order for them to get that information from you, you’re forcing them to take another step, which is to get on a live call with you.  And I know that a lot of sales coaches teach, like, don’t put pricing on your website because you want the opportunity to have that conversation with people. But that’s for your benefit. Not for the clients or the prospects. So when you’re forcing somebody to do something, what, what happens in the start of that conversation is they already feel a little bit on the back foot because they’re nervous now about having that conversation with you because they have no idea what kind of pricing  you’re gonna.  Come back with and they might end up feeling embarrassed or ashamed to have to admit to you that they can’t afford that. So, to me, it’s a real breakdown and rapport for the start of the conversation for somebody to be nervous because what’s the pricing? The other thing too, is it kind of sets the stage that, um, not only are you in charge of the conversation, but that you’re.  Okay. Like, how, how much do they trust you yet to have that conversation and for you to list pricing because how do they know that you’re giving them a price and giving somebody else the same price? So there’s, there’s, to me, it shows a lack of trust. It also, I think it’s important for you to stand in your credibility and in your authority and, and.  Charge whatever it is that you charge and be revealing about it. You shouldn’t have to hide your pricing in order to try to force people to have  conversations with you. You should be attracting your ideal clients, having them look at that and go, I do want to have a conversation with Nikki, or I do want to have a conversation with Sarah because I’m not sure what is the right offer for me, but I can tell already that she’s got something.  She’s got something for me. Yeah, I  Sarah: love, I love your approach and I definitely share the same you and, and you mentioned something where other sales coaches might tell people to not put their prices so that, you know, you get, people have to get on a sales conversation with you and you said that might be in your benefit.  I actually don’t see it as a benefit. And I’m sure a lot of my listeners won’t either because. I feel like we don’t want to be in that convincing energy on sales calls anyways, right? I agree. It’s uncomfortable. Yeah. I actually think it’s our, in our benefit. If  people have the prices. On the website. So they, they know exactly what to expect and you’re, you’re right.  It’s, it’s so uncomfortable. The unknown and embarrassment comes in. It’s just human to feel uncomfortable to talk about money. And so to have that upfront and just kind of like, okay, here’s the deal. And also, like you said, it creates this trust of, there’s not going to be any hidden stuff that I don’t know and don’t expect, and it’s just like, it’s all out there, totally agree.  Nikki: Yeah, you know sales your job is not to convince people to buy from you and if you’re approaching sales from this Mindset of like I’ve got to convince people Well convincing somebody of something It does come off a little manipulative and it does come off a little like icky and you know, I think one of the misconceptions about selling is that people think sales is something you do to another person and kind of taking a, you know, a page out of your book about that humane  approach.  You shouldn’t have to do anything to another person. I teach that sales is something you do with another person. It’s a collaboration. And as much as you’re deciding whether or not I’m a good fit for you, I’m also deciding whether or not you’re a good fit for me, for my business. Can I really serve you and solve the problem or meet the need that you have?  And being really candid and honest about that, and not in a way that I don’t have to feel bad about myself if you’re not a good fit, you don’t have to feel bad about yourself if we’re not a good fit. We just bless and release and move on. And that’s okay.  Sarah: I feel like it’s, it takes that pressure out of this.  What I call the gentle sales conversation, right? Um, in the selling like a human book, I say, you know, picture yourself in the serene garden where you’re just having a cup of tea or coffee with your ideal client. And, and there, the money doesn’t even come  in or it comes in very shortly at the end because it’s already dealt with, right?  I, I even send out like a coaching guide where again, it explains, you know, here’s how Our collaboration works. Here’s the price again. And like they have time to look at this in detail before we ever get on a call. And so then we just have time to be human together and do what you said. It’s like, Oh, we’re figuring out if we’re a good fit and if I can truly help you.  And it’s kind of like this being human and trying to do something to someone like you said.  Nikki: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I totally agree. I  Sarah: love that. Thank you. Yeah. So in terms of the pricing, it looks like we totally agree yet. I think sometimes people asked, well, what if I have custom projects? You know, it’s like, what if I don’t work hourly and it’s not just like, oh, my hourly rate is this.  I create custom  projects. So I can put. The prices on the website or can I is there another solution you offer?  Nikki: Yeah, you actually still can. You could put a range now and I want to be really clear about this because a lot of times people think, well, I’ll just put a. A starting at price and that’s a mistake.  If, if you put a starting at price, you just have anchored this low price and that’s not what you want to do, especially you get on a call with somebody, you find out, you know, how in depth their project is and that starting at price isn’t even close to what the price is that you’re going to. Have to charge them in order to facilitate it.  So you can put a range. You could say prices, you know, for this type of project range typically between, you know, and you, you know, have the low price to the high price. And it can, I don’t care if it’s a thousand dollars, John or a thousand dollars, just by putting a range, it shows that you’re being revealing.  Now you don’t want to put, you don’t want to say something that’s not  true. So always stand in integrity. And if you know that projects. Could potentially range between 30, 000 and 100, 000 put that and then when they get on the call with you and you say to them, you know, based on what you’ve shared the, the project, you know, that we’re looking at here is probably in that 70, 000 range.  Well, they can feel relieved because it’s not the high end. They’re like. At least it’s not 100, 000. But if you say 30, 000 to, you know, just starting at 30, 000 and then you say 70, 000 to them, they’re going to be upset. They’re going to feel like, oh, wow, you’re gouging me. No, I’m giving you a legitimate price and I have been candid about this is the range, right?  Sarah: Yeah, so is that similar to the the idea of anchoring?  Nikki: Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly what it is Yeah, so so you wouldn’t just put the high price here because that that is a way to anchor  the high price But you wouldn’t want to do that because that would probably scare off the people that would fall in the smaller, you know Pricing.  So put a range on the website. Now, when you talk about your offer or you talk about the ways that you could solve the problem for them in a conversation, I do believe in doing top down selling. So that is anchoring the higher price first and then work your way down from there. And again, you always want to stand in your place of integrity, don’t recommend 100, 000 project.  If that is so outside of scope of what’s going to solve their problem, you know, you still have to show up from a place of integrity, which I suspect that all of your listeners already are committed to doing that, right? This is what would attract them to listen to you and follow you. So they’re already not going to recommend something that’s out of.  You know, out of reach or out of scope or out of integrity, frankly, but when you say to somebody, you know, based on what you’ve shared, there are 3 ways that we could work together. We  could, and you’re going to start at the top. You’re going to say we could do the full package, you know, the full project.  It’s going to get you everything that you want. And the pricing for that is this. You know, we could also kind of start in the middle where we could get most of the things you want to see how it’s going and then, you know, whatever. And the price and now this is a smaller price and you go, or if you’re just wanting the basic package just to get that first piece.  You know, done for you, then it’s this price. So you always start top down. And the reason you do that is the way our brains work as humans. We come out of the womb already knowing how to grasp like babies already know how to grasp things, right? Like now. You ever help hold a baby and they get a hold of your hair like, you know, you know, they already like nobody had to teach them how to pull hair.  Like they know how to grasp. So as humans, we like to, we like to attach to things. So when you start at the  top and you work your way down, it’s easier for people to make a decision that is a better decision for them because they don’t like to have, they don’t like to give up things. In order to get what they want, but on the flip side of this, the reason you don’t start at the bottom and work your way up is because we don’t like to pay more to get what we need.  Sarah: Yeah, I’m gonna say that again. We don’t want to pay more to get what we need. So that’s why we start from the top and work. So that’s interesting because usually what I heard is, um, you know, sales coaches would say, oh, mention your price and then just. Like probably the highest price and then just stop talking and see what the reaction is where you are saying, no, give all the options starting from the top and then have a conversation around it.  Is that correct?  Well,  Nikki: uh, almost, I’m going to say almost, I’m going to, I’m going to, if I can just clarify a little bit around that. So. I’m totally fine. If I have a conversation with you, you tell me what you need. And I have a specific program that is going to meet your needs. I’m happy to say, you know, based on what you’ve shared, the program that is going to meet the things that you’ve talked about, it’s going to get you this, this and this.  And 10, 000. Now, I’m If you clutch your pearls and go like, Oh, my God, 10, 000 sticky, that’s a little rich for my blood, right? I might have missed the mark a little bit there with you. So I sometimes, you know, based on what people have shared, there are a couple different ways where, you know, a couple ways for them to get it.  So if you’re going to lay out more than one option for somebody, don’t ever give them more than three, Okay. Initially to make a decision  with, and when you do that, if you’re going to say, you know, there’s a couple of ways that I, you know, like just a basic question. So just to give you a real life example, if somebody said to me, you know, Nikki, what are the, what are the ways that you work with clients?  Have a lot of ways that I work with clients, but I’m never going to answer that question when with more than three answers So I’m gonna say, you know, I have private coaching clients I have classes that I offer and then I have a group coaching program of those three Which are you most interested in hearing more about now?  I haven’t actually listed pricing But if they say what you know, what are the three ways or what other ways you work with clients? What’s the pricing I could say? I have private coaching. It ranges from this to this. I have classes. They typically are priced at this. I have a group coaching program and it’s a monthly.  You know, payment. And it’s this of those three, which are you most interested in hearing more about? Because if I try to tell somebody all the ways I work with  them, I will overwhelm them and an overwhelmed mind is not going to buy. They’re not going to make a decision. So I have to be the expert. I have to be the person that will stand in my place of authority and recommend because I’ve asked you the right questions.  Thank you. What’s the right solution for you?  Sarah: So to come back to my question about, you know, do you state all three or just the one and then wait for an answer? Um, I guess it depends whether they have a very specific request and, you know, you basically already talked about something that is very. Fitting for their needs, then you would just offer that.  And then maybe from there, if they’re like, Oh, that’s a little bit high. Is there anything else we could do? Then you could offer your group coaching, for example. So it’s really just kind of going with the flow. That’s how I’ve always done it. And it feels good to be able to offer. Different solutions,  depending on, you know, depending on the budget that people have and then say, well, you know, maybe we can do this.  And sometimes I even come up with new offers and say, well, Okay. You know, I really want to help you because you’re, you know, doing such good work for a cause that really is important to me. And then, you know, I’ll come up with with a new offer or add them to a program as well as my 1 on 1 coaching things like that.  I think we can. One thing that I learned with pricing and selling is like, we are taking ourselves often too seriously. Like we, we think we have to be just, you know, rigid kind of business owners. And it’s like, well, actually, you know, you, you can still make money and just be a bit more in the flow. Um, I don’t know what you think about that, Nikki.  I  Nikki: agree with you 100%. I think, you know, um, if I could just comment on what I’m hearing you say, and you please correct me if this is not  in alignment, is that the sales, the sales conversation. Is a conversation, right? And so it has this back and forth flow. You shouldn’t just be talking at people the whole time.  And so you should talk with and the way to talk with people oftentimes is to ask questions. So if you lay out an offer and somebody’s like, Oh. That’s a little bit more than what I was expecting, then my next thing I’m going to say to you isn’t to shame you or try to push you into it. I’m going to follow up and say, well, what were you expecting?  Like, it’s a conversation and then you come back at me and I say, well, I do have maybe a way we could get started together. And I do think as a, you know, depending on the size of your business and who’s doing the selling in your business, if you’re a solopreneur entrepreneur, like there is something about being a little nimble, you know, being, I always say my all time favorite quote is blessed are the flexible  for, they shall not be bent out of shape.  And the idea in your sales conversation. Is to have some flexibility, you know, if you identify the person I’m talking to right now is an ideal client, they definitely have a need and I feel compelled to want to serve them in some way, you know, I wouldn’t develop a new product offering for every single conversation because then you’re going to probably burn yourself out, frankly, in your business, but sometimes you can add a little tweak here and there, you know, every once in a while, somebody like I just had somebody yesterday.  Okay. I put out an offer on a training and somebody followed up with me and said, you know, Nikki, I really want to do this with you, but I can’t start it, you know, until after the first of the year. And I said, well, I’m happy to wait, you know, like I, I didn’t tell anybody else that, but this is what this person needs.  And so I’ll do that for that person. Cause  I have the ability to make that decision in my business. Yeah,  Sarah: that so resonates. We also talked about humane payment plans in the community, uh, recently. And that’s another thing that we feel strongly about. It’s kind of this integrity piece where we, if we are safe ourselves, right, if we have enough to pay our bills.  And and yet someone is struggling a little bit and can’t make the whole payment and then, you know, why would we make payment plans that are non humane where it’s like, oh, now you have to pay 20 percent more just because you can’t make the one full time payment. And so we were just discussing how can we make it a win win situation where it’s like.  Yeah, I really want you to have this program or coaching or whatever it is. And yet, you know, there needs to be a huge trust and that trust  I now see is established already before, right? Obviously through your marketing, that’s what humane marketing is all about, but even through the pricing, uh, like having these prices on your website.  That also creates trust because it’s like, well, it’s all up there, you know, it’s all understood and clear and, um, yeah, I think there’s a lot of integrity to that. Um, yeah, just curious what you think about payment plans and if you have any thoughts on that.  Nikki: I love the idea of payment plans. As long as it’s still like you said, it’s, it’s not, it’s not hurting your business, you know, from a cash flow standpoint, it’s not causing you to not be able to pay your vendors or pay your team or something like that.  Then I think there’s nothing wrong with a payment plan. As a matter of fact, I love payment plans. And even the program that I mentioned yesterday that I offered when you go to the, you know, to the Page to sign up right underneath there. There’s an option for a  payment plan. Sometimes I promote payment plans heavily and mark, you know, and I’m marketing an offer.  Sometimes I don’t. I just put them, you know, subtly on the page for somebody because if they’ve clicked with an interest and they’ve shown some interest by clicking on the page and wanting to learn more about whatever the offer is, Yeah. And if there’s some part of them, it’s like, dang, I’d really like to do this, but I don’t have this, you know, I don’t have that much money right now available to spend on, you know, coaching with Dickie or whatever they see like, oh, there’s a payment plan there.  And for me, it’s. It’s fine. Like, I’m, I’m happy to do that. Um, I will say, you know, just to comment on payment plans. One, one, one thing that I think sometimes can be a limiting, um, belief around payment plans for entrepreneurs, for business owners is they think that the payment plan has to be the same amount.  Over a certain  period of time. So, for instance, I’m going to do a payment plan. That means I’ve got to break it up into, you know, it’s a 3 month program. So it has to be 3 of the exact same payments and and that to me isn’t always the case. Sometimes if a lot of the work, the heavy lifting is done in that first, you know, part of working together, I often will give people the option of paying 50 percent up front because I know that my like the majority of the work that I’m doing, the really heavy lifting and the stuff that costs my business, the money, you know, to it.  You know, pay for whatever the extras are, the stuff that comes like I need to be able to cover those costs. But then what I’ll do is then I will split up the other 50 percent over the next two months or whatever. Like there’s so make sure that you’re giving yourself a little bit of flexibility in your payment plans to you don’t want to make it confusing or crazy.  But, you know, I just had a client where I was coaching her around this  and she was like, it’s so hard for me to do a payment plan because of all the costs involved in that first month. And I was like, well, what if we collected 50%? And she was like, would people do that? And I was like, People do it with me all the time.  Let’s try it. And then she came back and she’s like, they were so happy to do it that way. And I was like, yeah, again, blessed are the flexible. You don’t have to be bent out of shape, be willing to do things that work for your business, but also make it easy for people to say yes to hiring you. That’s a good  Sarah: reminder, because again, the humane approach is not just serving your clients.  It’s also serving yourself. And so it really is important that you don’t get into trouble because you’re, you know, making everything possible for them, where then you are struggling in the back. So, so it’s really just, yeah, having the conversation and saying, look, I’d love to offer you this. Uh, but this is what I need, right.  And then have this conversation. And I think  it really comes with this trust building that is so important. And I think that’s also where you can, you just said, you know, you wouldn’t have offered to wait to just anybody who will ask, but this person, that’s what they needed. And so you’re like, yeah, I’m happy to do that.  So in a way it’s like, well, just because you have a standard program or a standard fee doesn’t mean you have to exactly do the same thing for everybody because, um, especially, you know, in the service business, we are, we’re in the human business. And so we should be talking to people about these things.  We shouldn’t just say this is. You know how it is and that’s it. And yet so often that’s what we’re taught in sales. It’s like, no, you come up with your price and that’s how it is. And you know, no flexibility at all. So, yeah, yeah, appreciate your input  Nikki: here. Yeah. It, is it okay if I just add  like one little piece to this idea of payment plan in the conversation of the sale?  Right. Um, So one of the things that I think is important also to remember is so if you’re having a conversation with a prospective client and you talk about the offer and they say, Oh, my gosh. You know, that sounds perfect for me, but really, I just don’t have the funds right now to do that. One of the cautions that I would say is don’t default to the payment plan conversation check to see if the payment plan conversation is appropriate.  So I was. I always look at things of like asking permission. So instead of, you know, somebody pushes back on price, if you go right into the payment plan option without getting their permission to talk about it, it, it can come off a little salesy and aggressive. So when somebody pushes back to me on price, I will usually say, now, if I was able to offer you a payment plan, would that be something  you’d be interested in considering?  And would that make it more feasible for you? Right, so I don’t go into the payment plan because if they say no, Nikki, even with a payment plan, I just couldn’t do it, then I’m going to respect that and I’m going to pull back. But if you go right into payment plan again, it sounds like you’re kind of ignoring what they said to you that they can’t afford it.  But I’m glad you brought that up.  Sarah: Yeah, that’s so important because yeah, we’re not trying to push the payment plan somebody. Right? Because it’s like this. You know, praise no is an answer. And, and, and it’s really, that’s what it is. It’s like, if they just don’t want to, or can’t, then, then we should respect that.  And a payment plan is not going to solve that. That’s so true. It’s a very different energy when they asked for the payment plan, whether one kind of. You know, bring on the topic and actually want to kind of push them towards the payment plan. I totally  agree. I don’t think I ever bring it up. Um, yeah, I, I would probably rather go, you know, offer another solution, like the group coaching or something like that.  And then maybe they would come back and say, actually, you know, do you offer a payment plan? So, because I think they’re quite. No, now, and so sometimes people, you know, often people ask me about payment plans. So yeah, that’s a good distinction. Thanks so much for for bringing that in. Yeah.  Nikki: Thank you for letting me.  Sarah: Um, anything else you want to share about. Prices and payments and selling conversations, um, shared a lot of things, but anything else that comes to mind?  Nikki: Well, one of the things that I want to, um, maybe just touch on in case this is helpful for your audience is. There’s a difference between being pushy and aggressive in a sales conversation versus making it easy for somebody to  make a decision.  So I, I find that a lot of times when people are uncomfortable with sales, they’re hesitant to ask somebody to move forward or invite them to take that next step with them. And. I want to just say in a really loving kind way that that’s your stuff and you need to set it aside. That’s your mindset stuff because your job is to make it really easy for people to make decisions.  Doesn’t mean the decision’s always going to go in your favor. But you still want to make sure that if you are talking to somebody and they’ve got a need and they’ve got, they’ve expressed interest in some way, please, please, please make sure that you ask them for their business so that they can decide in the moment whether or not it’s the right next step for them.  But if you don’t ask them, Don’t assume that they’ll decide because our brains are lazy and we have decision fatigue and we’re overwhelmed. And so if you don’t make it easy for somebody, a lot of times they’ll be like, Oh, I’m just going to think  about it. But then they actually never think about it because they have too many other things to think about.  And then they don’t ever get the solution to the problem or the need that they have. So make sure you always follow up in, in the appropriate time in a conversation. And go ahead and ask for the sale, ask for the business and then be quiet and let them say one way or the other.  Sarah: Yeah, thanks for that reminder.  One, one thing that also just, I remember there’s a question that I always ask about expectations because we talked, you mentioned integrity a few times and I do. And just earlier, before I call, I had another email or LinkedIn message from someone who bought a big package and was disillusioned because of, you know, promises that were not kept.  And so I think it’s really important that piece of, um. Expectations to ask in a gentle sales conversation. Well, what’s your expectations for our work together, you know, to really  understand what they’re expecting and what you can actually be in full integrity deliver, because that again. It helps you understand where there are and what their actual beliefs are.  And it also helps this trust building again. And then it’s just kind of like, you know, it’s, it’s setting the stage for a beautiful collaboration. Then have not addressing it. And the person thinking, oh, I’m going to get 20 new clients from this and. You, meanwhile, not thinking that at all, right? You’re like, no, this is, you know, I can’t promise that.  So just putting it out into the open and having a conversation about that is really important, I think. I  Nikki: love that you said that and commented on that. It’s you know, you never want to you never want to over promise and under deliver. But at the same time, you don’t if you don’t understand what your client has in their mind because they haven’t been given the opportunity to articulate it.  You  may. In inadvertently leave them feeling like you over promised and under delivered and how Disappointing not only is that to them But also for you and it starts to get in your head and you start to think well Maybe i’m not as good as I think I am or maybe my offer isn’t the right offer Like all of that negative mindset could have been avoided doing exactly what you just said sarah.  I love that so much  Sarah: This has been wonderful. Thanks so much for For being here and doing such good work. Nikki, please do tell us where people can find you. And I believe you have a, an offer  Nikki: for us as well. I do. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I always like to give a gift when I get to come and be with somebody and spend some time in front of their audience.  So I have a course, it’s a really short little training, and it talks about the five steps to a sales conversation. That’s my signature framework. It’s called mastering the sales conversation, and it will give you the five steps  and what to say or do in those five steps that isn’t, it’s not script. It’s teaching you how to show up and be your authentic, genuine self in those conversations.  So you can get that by going to your sales maven. com forward slash humane. And that’ll be there for you. It’s free. You can download it. And once you do that, then we’ll be connected.  Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Which, uh, social platform are you usually, uh, most active on,  Nikki: Nikki? I tend to be the most active on LinkedIn and Instagram, but I also have a podcast too called Sales Maven.  So since you’re, you know, these are your listeners, if they are looking for another podcast to check out, I would encourage them to check out the Sales Maven  Sarah: podcast. Wonderful. Yeah. And as you know, I always have a last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week?  Nikki: You know what i’m most grateful for today is that the weather here where I live in Boise, Idaho is starting to shift And i’m so excited for fall And we’re  starting to let go of some of those really hot days.  So i’m so grateful for the change in the season  Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. And over here it’s like an Indian summer. It’s still warm, but definitely crisp in the morning and at night. So that’s lovely. Yeah. Wonderful. Thanks so much for hanging out Nikki.  Nikki: Thanks for having me.  Sarah: Did you take some notes? I hope you got great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Nikki and her work at yoursalesmaven. com. And she’s also offering us a free resource about being our confidence in the sales conversation and you’ll find that at your sales maven dot com forward slash humane.  And as always, if you’re looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle where we have deep conversations about marketing,  but also about selling and pricing and. Humane payment plans, and all of this good stuff. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle.  You’ll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing. com forward slash H M 1 7 5 on this beautiful page. You also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we’re human and selling like we’re human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation.  We are marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.
38:57 10/20/23
Networking Redefined: Make Deep Connections
In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we venture into the 'P' of People as part of our ongoing exploration of the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Join me in a conversation with Cara Steinmann, the visionary founder of the Ravel Collective and host of the Ravel Radio podcast. Together, we delve into the art of authentic networking, emphasizing the importance of core values, unconventional approaches on LinkedIn, and the profound impact of empathy on your business relationships. Discover new insights that could transform the way you approach human connections and meaningful networking. In this episode, Cara and I discuss: Her experience with traditional networking and how she redefined it How to bring our core values to our networking How Cara uses LinkedIn to create connections, but not with a lead-generation mindset Networking for introverts How to be intentional when networking The importance of quality over quantity And so much more Ep 174 [00:00:00] Sarah: Hi, Cara. So nice to meet. Hi, you. [00:00:04] Cara: Good to see you, Sarah. How's it going? I'm good, thank you. [00:00:08] Sarah: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I really look forward to this conversation with you. I was on your podcast recently and we really [00:00:15] Cara: we're [00:00:16] Sarah: aligned, so I'm glad we have you on the humane part, marketing podcast, and talking about networking. [00:00:23] Right? So that's kind of your. Specialty and, uh, yeah, I want to just go dive right in. So tell me how did you come to make networking part of your specialty? And how did you build a community around networking? Why is networking so important to [00:00:45] Cara: you? It was kind of an accident because I don't really think of myself as a networking person and I think a lot of people probably feel that way because there's this connotation around networking that it's sort of like very businessy and very like you imagine yourself in a [00:01:00] room with very professional people and you're handing out business cards and you're talking about things that are very business related, but I think in my life, uh, in my career, I've sort of acted more as just a connector. [00:01:12] I think of it as connecting with people and building relationships. And that's usually not on a grand scale. It's one person at a time, usually in a one to one conversation. And it doesn't feel like what you would imagine networking to be. So I think maybe a little shift in the way we think about networking can help a lot of us who don't like that whole, you know, big corporate business vibe and really care more about. [00:01:36] One to one relationships and what goes on beyond the business. Yeah. [00:01:40] Sarah: That's already such a, a shift when you say relationship building versus networking. Mm-hmm. has that term work in it. Right. And so it feels like I'm the one going into this crowd and I have to work my way through it. Like, and, and yeah. [00:01:58] Collect the business cards [00:02:00] and you know, it's kind of like, yeah. [00:02:01] Cara: That, and I think. Be I think expanding our understanding of network be working beyond or even relationship building beyond thinking of who we are going to build relationships with to thinking about who we can connect so they can build relationships, because then you expand your network exponentially because then they also. [00:02:23] They also consider you part of their and both of you're part of both of their network. And then they're connecting. And then when they meet new people, they want to introduce you. So it's kind of kind of like weaving a web of connection with people that you genuinely want to talk to and spend time with and respect. [00:02:37] Sarah: It's funny you guys use that term weaving because in our community, uh, we have. One of the calls that is kind of like a networking call, um, but we actually call it net weaving. So I love that it's this idea of, yeah, we're together and we're getting to know one another, but we're weaving, uh, these [00:03:00] relationships. [00:03:00] Cara: And yeah, I love that. Yeah, we unravel. We have connection calls that are just to talk about whatever we want to talk about and connect. We had one yesterday and a bunch of us were on there just talking about what vacations we're taking and a little bit about business and what we're looking at challenges right now. [00:03:14] And then we have a small, small business mastermind where we all break off and then we have a happy hour once a month. And otherwise we're just hanging out in the community, getting to know each other and asking business related questions and personal questions. And, you know, it's about, I think it's a little bit deeper than just. [00:03:30] What do you do and who do you do it for? Like the pitch does, the elevator pitch doesn't matter so much when you know somebody. Yeah. [00:03:38] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You really addressed something there. It's this superficiality that I always hated at networking events that I felt like people were only listening to themselves talk and preparing what they're going to say next. [00:03:55] Listening to me and, you know, really having a conversation. And then [00:04:00] of course you add, you know, this was prior to COVID you add kind of like, you know, surrounding noise to it and you don't really hear one another and it was just [00:04:10] like [00:04:10] Cara: a nightmare. It is. It's a nightmare prior to COVID. I, I always loathed. [00:04:17] In person networking events, conferences and things like that, because it just, I knew I was going to end up in situations talking to people who really weren't necessarily a very strategic fit for like a strategic partner or referral partner, and that they would, like you said, just be waiting for their opportunity to say what they needed to say about their business and having a lot of surface level conversations because I think a lot of business culture requires you to leave the personal at home. [00:04:41] And I don't want to do that. I think we bring ourselves to our work and to our business, our core values, the way we operate. And I would rather, like we were talking about introverts before we hit record. Right. And I don't really consider myself an introvert, but when it comes to those kinds of things, I really act like one, because I would much rather have an [00:05:00] intimate conversation about things that matter than talk about, you know, What you do, what you do for people, because that's gonna, if you're an entrepreneur, you're going to find that out. [00:05:08] Anyway, we can't help but talk about that. Right. [00:05:10] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true. It's these deeper, meaningful connections and conversations and actually. Also pre COVID, um, there was this, uh, movement on, on LinkedIn, uh, called the LinkedIn local events. Yeah. And so me who always hated networking all of the sudden, I was like, well, these events kind of had a different tone because they, they came with topics and they were really open to this idea of. [00:05:40] Bring yourself to the conversation, bring the human side to the conversation. And so I actually put my hand up together with, um, another, uh, local friend here. And we started creating these LinkedIn local networking events. And, and we created themes, you know, where people would pick [00:06:00] cards and have really deep conversations and people loved it, people were like, Oh, this. [00:06:05] So different. Right. And then every now and then the person would walk in and you could tell, you know, they were like business suit and they probably had their stack of business cards and they're like, what is this? Why [00:06:17] Cara: are people doing here? It's funny. Cause I had, I used to host a speed networking event in Ravel and, um. [00:06:24] I actually, I learned this from a coaching program that I was in and they would do a lot of like more personal questions. And so I love that we only did it once a month and I was like, we need to do this more often. And so the challenge was calling it speed networking because what we actually do when you get there is break up into small little breakout rooms. [00:06:40] And I would. I would offer questions or topic starters, like what's the weirdest thing in your fridge right now? Like things that don't have anything to do with business, but you end up deciding kind of who you really mesh with and who you want to take that relationship further with and really get to know about them and their business and how you can support one another. [00:06:57] Cause you don't really want to support people you don't [00:07:00] care about. Right. So that's kind of the first step, I think, is deciding who you want to care about. Right. [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Before you also addressed core values. So, so huge. What do you think are the, you know, the core, or I guess there's two questions. What are the core values that we should bring to networking and why do they [00:07:21] Cara: matter so much? [00:07:23] I think we should bring our own core values to networking because the truth is we are all I like to think of them as core drivers because I think corporate culture has kind of ruined the term core values for us. We think of the little poster on the wall that doesn't really mean anything. But if you really get into your core drivers, what it means is it's what motivates you. [00:07:40] It's what drives your behavior. So my core values are freedom, authenticity and connection. And I notice when I'm in a funk or when I'm out of sorts, it's because something is going against my core values. So if you're going to network, I think you should network with people ideally who share your core values. [00:07:58] And then you'll [00:08:00] naturally network in a very comfortable way. Like when I started Ravel, I very intentionally invited, I seeded the community with women who I knew shared at least one of my core values, knowing that birds of a feather flock together. And so it worked really well because now we're up around a hundred women and anyone who's referred someone has always been an amazing fit. [00:08:18] I have to do very little background on the applicants now because if I know Maggie int introduced someone else to the group, I know Maggie and I know she's not going to introduce somebody to the group who's not a good fit because her core values align really well with mine. Yeah. So I think that makes it just so much easier to predict how someone's going to behave and what you can expect from them. [00:08:40] Sarah: Yeah, and it really defines the community, [00:08:42] Cara: right? Yeah, it makes it easier to hold that community in a shape, like my goal when I started Ravel was to create a community, just create a space and hold it in a shape, such that people would feel comfortable and vulnerable enough to connect with one another and really get to know each other. [00:08:58] And by inviting the. [00:09:00] Types of people who would be strategically aligned to be most likely to refer one another, like complimentary service providers. They're all B2B service entrepreneurs and they're women. So they have a lot in common and, you know, financial professionals who serve agencies can network with coaches who serve agencies. [00:09:17] And because they share core values, they're going to probably get along pretty well. And it makes it easy to build that kind of rapport that they need to. Want to connect with one another and see what's up in their business and say, Hey, you should talk to so and so. So it's like kind of building relationships with like the happy by product that you get referrals in business works really well. [00:09:36] Yeah. [00:09:37] Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. Usually we hear this this idea of quality over quantity. Um, you just mentioned your communities about 100 people. Um, so, so what do you think about quality over quantity in terms of the networking? Is it a, is it a numbers game or is [00:10:00] it a quality game or is it something [00:10:01] Cara: in between? [00:10:02] I think it's quality over quantity, 100%. And I think it's evolving, honestly, constantly, right? Like, so if you're, cause your business evolves, maybe you shift who you serve or how you serve that person. Um, and so maybe you have a handful of really great referral partners and. you shift your business a little bit. [00:10:21] You might have to, some of those referral partners, it might not be as strategically aligned anymore. And maybe they stay, you stay friends, but you might start looking around for different strategic partners who might be more well aligned, but it's not like you have to shift your whole network. You just start networking with a few different people and start figuring out who, who fits with you. [00:10:38] Um, and I think like a hundred is a lot of women. Like, I don't, I don't intimately know every member of the community anymore. When it was like 20 women, it was like, It was really easy. And, but what we've done is we've separated into smaller groups too. So we have a Slack channel where we have different topics. [00:10:55] We have rabble travel, and we have ADHD all day and moms. And [00:11:00] so we have these different things that we care about. And the women who gravitate to those channels tend to get to know each other well enough that. Even if they're not strategically aligned to refer one another as well as some others would be, they kind of cross pollinate between the community, the micro communities within the chant, within the community. [00:11:17] And then they say, Oh, you know who you should get to know. So there's a lot of paying it forward, introducing people to other people. That is such a, an underrated gift that you can give someone is to say, I think I know somebody who you need to know. Who would, you'd benefit from knowing each other. I mean, making a connection between two people who you think would get along is such a gift. [00:11:38] Yeah. [00:11:39] Sarah: Yeah. So true. Um, you mentioned a few times this word strategic, and I guess it's for you, it's like, well, there's a strategy to networking because again, as an introvert, This idea of networking can sometimes feel so overwhelming because we think, well, does that mean I have to network with [00:12:00] just anybody, you know, so it's like, Oh my God, I don't have the time to network with just anybody. [00:12:07] So, so what, what is a good strategy, um, that feels, you know, empathic and yet very strategic. Um, and I guess time conscious as well. [00:12:20] Cara: Yeah. Yeah. I think. Um, that's probably how most people think of it is just like, it's very overwhelming. You have to make a lot of people think there's a list you have to make and you have to contact X number of people a day. [00:12:31] And that feels very impersonal and kind of, um, like required, which doesn't feel good for a lot of people. Um, I've approached it differently. Like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. Um, just for networking, though, I don't spend a lot of time scrolling on LinkedIn, but if I find somebody offline, say I'm listening to a podcast or reading a book or find somebody's website online while I'm Googling or going down a rabbit hole of some kind, and I feel like they are strategically aligned with my business, meaning either they're, uh, [00:13:00] Complimentary service provider. [00:13:00] So we serve the same client, but we do different things, or we are a shoulder niche peer, meaning that we do different things or do we do the same sort of thing, but for different clients. So maybe I serve, um, the financial industry and they serve, um, like agencies or something like that. And so we can refer one another because we don't really serve the same ideal client, and this requires knowing what you want and what you're good at. [00:13:24] I don't think we are all suited to do, you know, the same thing. We're, we're all so different. I think it also, I think it's a successful networking in this way requires that you don't believe in competition. We're all so different. There's so much, so many factors that we can own as, you know, authentic to who we are that maybe somebody else doesn't want to own. [00:13:45] And if we know ourselves really well, we can understand what we do best and who we are best suited to serve. And then there's just no way that somebody else is going to bring exactly the same thing to the table that we are. So. We have to kind of get rid of that idea first. And then we're free to [00:14:00] network with people who look like they do something similar to what we do, but probably don't do exactly what we do or for the same person. [00:14:07] Um, and then you can also look for people who are, um, centers of influence coaches for, if you serve entrepreneurs, maybe you're wanting to network with coaches who serve entrepreneurs, and maybe you're a done for you service provider or something like that. So they're in a position to refer you there. [00:14:24] The people you're looking for to network with are the ones who are most likely to be in a position to refer you. So not somebody who's working in a totally different industry with clients that aren't even related to you. Um, but I don't, I don't think you have to go like search for them. I think you can listen to podcasts that are interesting to you and just start taking note of. [00:14:47] Someone who's interesting to you, who you think you might like and say, is that person in a position to refer me perhaps, and then you can just reach out to that person individually. I usually on LinkedIn because it's the easiest place to get [00:15:00] really connected with somebody. Yeah, [00:15:03] Sarah: so the idea is really to find referral partners. [00:15:07] and connect with them. [00:15:09] Cara: Yeah. And to be open about it and say, Hey, I think we have a lot in common. I think we might benefit from knowing each other. Um, I like you. I like what you're doing. Let's connect and just say hi. Mm-hmm. . [00:15:20] Sarah: Yeah. Do you then stop at the, you know, first conversation or how do you. Because it, you know, we always say in networking, you have to stay top of mind. [00:15:31] So how do you stay top of mind with this [00:15:33] Cara: person then? I don't think everyone is going to stay top of mind all the time, right? Like, you're gonna, you're gonna meet a few people who you really click with. And a few people who you don't really click with. One of the reasons that I started Ravel was because it is hard to stay top of mind when we're all busy and we're all running around doing all our stuff all day long. [00:15:52] And I don't, I'm not the kind of person, let's do, we have to do what works for us, right? If you're an organized person and you like lists and you use a [00:16:00] CRM, maybe you can stay top of mind with people in your own strategic way. I can't do that. So I put everybody in a container that I like so that I can stay connected with them in a container. [00:16:12] We, we naturally stay connected because we're having calls or somebody is asking a question and we're learning more about their business that way. And we're commenting and sharing our expertise. And so I think it's about proximity. And then if you're connected with them on LinkedIn and you're following them, you might see them. [00:16:26] It's like, The top of mind thing I think is more about the mere exposure effect than, than the top, than staying top of mind. It's just staying in front of someone who you want to, to stay connected with. And you can do that in a lot of different ways just by commenting on their stuff on LinkedIn. They see you, you learn a little bit more maybe about what they do and it don't think it has to take a long time. [00:16:46] It can take five, 10 minutes to, to go on. And in the case of LinkedIn, I would say like a lot of people suggest. That you'd be connected to a ton of people and follow a ton of people. But I find that really overwhelming. So [00:17:00] I only follow and want to be connected with the people that I really want to stay connected with because then my feed isn't really overwhelming and I can just, I can see the people that I want to stay in touch with and I can comment and like, and stay. [00:17:12] In front of them. And then they remember me. [00:17:15] Sarah: Yeah. So, so, so does that mean that you actually, you know, hide some of the updates of people who you don't want to see anymore, just so not, not to. [00:17:26] Cara: I just unfollow them or disconnect. I am a little bit ruthless that way because it's, we only have so much time and I don't really want to be connected with people that don't align with me really, really well. [00:17:36] So, you know, when I. I've been on LinkedIn for a long, long time, but my, my career has evolved. You know, if the past 15 years I'm doing very different things than I was in the very beginning. And so I, when I decided to reinvest in LinkedIn as a way to connect with people, I went in and I, I had, you know, thousands of connections and I got rid of all but 400 and some odd. [00:17:57] Because it was like, if I don't want to have coffee with this [00:18:00] person, I don't need to be on LinkedIn with them. And perhaps that's different if you're not an entrepreneur and you're trying to get a job. I don't know about that, but for my situation where I want to spend time connecting and networking with people who care about the same things I care about. [00:18:18] That means there's a lot of people I don't need to connect with. And I don't want to waste my time looking at their stuff. if I don't care about it. Right. And they don't know, so it's not mean or anything. [00:18:33] Sarah: Um, yeah, it's really interesting to, to see how, you know, usually we always hear, Oh, use LinkedIn for lead generation, right? [00:18:43] Yeah, that's not how you're looking at it. You're like, well, I, Only want the people I care about. And so they, yes, they might be potential clients or they're, you know, some other level of connection or [00:18:59] [00:19:00] network. [00:19:00] Cara: That's how you. I think that's a giant, you're speaking to something that's really important that I think a lot of people miss. [00:19:05] It's a giant mistake to go into like a community or a networking container and think you're going to sell to the people in that container. You're the benefit of being in a container with a hundred women. Is the connection to the 150 other people they know that they might be able to connect you with. [00:19:24] And yes, we buy from each other. I've purchased products and services from tons of the women inside Ravel and we buy stuff. We hire each other all the time, but it's not because we're sharing our offers and trying to convince each other to buy from us. It's because we happen to know each other really well, and we have a problem and we know that person can solve it. [00:19:42] But most of the time we're introducing someone. To another person, like I'll run. I talked to a friend of mine, or I go to an event or something, and I hear somebody has a problem. And I will say, I know somebody you should talk to. Let me connect you with so and so because I know what she does. And I like her and I know she'll do a good job. [00:19:59] Right. [00:20:00] So we're, we're building the relationships. We're not selling to people and LinkedIn is You know, a breeding ground for people doing lead gen on LinkedIn. We should be doing strategic networking. [00:20:11] Sarah: Yeah, I think that that's really the, the, the difference is not thinking of everybody who is somehow looking like a client just because they, you know, have a human body that, that you think of them as your ideal client. [00:20:29] And especially if you then think of a community where Uh, you know, the minute you bring that kind of energy into a community, the community is basically, yeah, it's destined to [00:20:41] Cara: fail. I've seen it happen in Ravel a couple of times where a couple, where a couple of people have, you know, crossed that line between, Hey guys, here's what I'm doing. [00:20:49] Check it out. Cause we want to share, we want to share what we're doing and we have a space for that, you know, but, um, a couple of people have, you know, gotten a little bit salesy with it. And it's not that they [00:21:00] get slapped down or anything. It's just that nobody responds. Right. It's just not something people are looking for in a community where we're trying to build relationships. [00:21:10] But what we do is we have calls and we connect with one another and we learn what's going on. And then we will often share on another person's behalf. One of our, one of our members, Cara, Cara Hoosier, she's getting ready to publish a book and it's really exciting because she's been through an incredible journey to get where she is. [00:21:25] It's called burnt out to lit up. And it's about. preventing yourself from burning out and what to do when you get there. And she's getting ready to launch this. She's looking for people to help her, you know, do reviews and read her book. And I was super excited for her. So instead of her getting on there and she's saying, Hey guys, look at what I did. [00:21:43] I said, can I share this with the community? Because it's really awesome. And she was like, sure. And so I said, you guys look at this, our member, our fellow friend here. is publishing a book. This is so exciting. Who wants to help her? I know that anybody else in here who is publishing a book would want the community to help them too. [00:21:59] [00:22:00] And so it's a very different message when you lift up another woman, as opposed to saying, look at me. It look at her sounds a lot different than look at me. Sure. So we help each other that way. Yeah. [00:22:12] Sarah: At the same time you as the host. What would you do? And this is not to do with networking, but just as a, you know, fellow community host, what would you do with a member, you know, several times trespasses that kind of unspoken rule that we're not selling in this community? [00:22:34] What would you do? [00:22:36] Cara: We had one instance in two years. In the last two years, we've had one instance where someone really kind of did cross the line. And I wasn't online that morning, but I got a bunch of messages from other community members who were like, Hey, we don't like this. Like we got to do something about this. [00:22:52] Um, and they were upset for me because she was trying to poach a bunch of members into a different community, which I think is fine actually, because [00:23:00] it's, I mean, I don't think poaching is fine, but I think women should have more than one community. They serve different purposes. I. intentionally keep Ravel at a very reasonable price because I want to belong to many communities, and I know that other women do too. [00:23:13] Um, but the way she went about it was really kind of gross. And so I had to respond to that because the community was saying, this feels gross and we don't want to be around this. And so I did ask, I said, we're going to go ahead and Remove you because this is not how we operate in here. I wish you know, but bless and release This might just not be the right place for you Which is important to remember because there are people have different core values people believe different things They operate different ways and just because she doesn't operate the way that we want to operate doesn't mean there's not a place Where that's totally fine for people to do, bless and release. [00:23:46] Um, so it's really more of like the community managing itself. I don't moderate and I don't tell them what they can and can't do. [00:23:54] Sarah: So, yeah, but in a way it's beautiful to have them, you know, kind of [00:24:00] show up and say, Hey, this is not how, this is not how we run here. [00:24:05] Cara: And yeah. And yeah. And that's my whole goal with the community is I don't, I'm not a coach. [00:24:10] I don't. Sell them anything other than the place inside the community, like the space. And so that's what, how I view it is. And I mean, we're kind of getting away from networking into community at this point, but I view it as myself just holding space in a particular shape. And that's my job is to make sure this play, this space is safe and a good place for people to be vulnerable and build relationships. [00:24:31] And if they can't do that, I'm not doing my job. So it has to be a safe space online. Yeah, yeah, [00:24:39] Sarah: that's beautiful. Yeah, we kind of meshed community with networking, but that's what [00:24:45] Cara: you're, that's what it is, right? Yeah, it, if when you're networking, you're building community. It just may not have a specific container it lives in. [00:24:54] Sarah: Yeah. And I also think. If we're changing that [00:25:00] term of networking into net weaving, then that's what we're really doing in a community is weaving a web together because the whole definition of a community is people being connected with each other. Not just to you as the host, right? [00:25:17] Cara: Totally. Yeah. And, and I, and this is why I use Slack, but I pay for the analytics. [00:25:23] I could use it for free, but I want to see what's happening behind the scenes, which is valuable because more than 50 percent of the conversations that are happening inside the community are in the DMs. And I know I'm not having that many conversations. There are thousands of conversations happening during the month. [00:25:36] And I know I'm not having that many. So there are a lot of private conversations happening and partnerships. Um, I introduced a couple of gals recently who are now partnering in business and, and they're super excited and doing some really amazing things. And I know that has nothing to do with me, but we're weaving. [00:25:54] These connections, not just for us, but for other people as well. And I think not, you don't even have [00:26:00] to, like, we can think of containers as smaller things, even text threads between two people or three people. Like if I have several people I want to connect with, because we all live locally, we're on a text thread together and the three of us send funny memes to one another. [00:26:12] And it doesn't have to do with business all the time. Yeah, [00:26:16] Sarah: I agree with that. It can also be more fun, right? It [00:26:18] Cara: should be more fun. Don't you think we should have more fun? I need more fun. [00:26:25] Sarah: Um, Yeah, maybe, maybe that's a good way to close with the, with the fun networking. Um, but maybe just also for people who right now, you know, there's so many communities out there yet, yet they're like, well, I don't either, I don't have the funds or I just can't decide which one to join. [00:26:45] So how can you start networking with that community as, or with that community notion without being in a community? What kind of advice would [00:26:55] Cara: you give? Um, I would say, I would say just [00:27:00] start connecting with people you enjoy. I listen to a lot of podcasts and I reach out to people who I think are excellent, either hosts or, um, interviewees, guests. [00:27:10] And I just tell them, I really, I like just start, start connecting directly with people that you admire, or you think have something interesting to say that you align with. Um, because like, there's that thing homophily, we're attracted to things that are similar to what we love or, or who we are. And so we're, they're going to be attracted to you. [00:27:28] If you share something either, I mean, location's really obvious, but beyond that, like core values or a mission or a purpose or something like that, like, I think you and I initially got connected on LinkedIn long, long ago, because I heard your podcast. And I was like, I, you're doing awesome things. We need to be connected. [00:27:45] And like, it didn't go anywhere for a long time. We had a little back and forth on, on LinkedIn, but eventually here we are trading podcast interviews. And so I think being in it for the long game and having conversations in the DMs, not expecting every [00:28:00] conversation to go somewhere, but being open to it going somewhere. [00:28:04] Yeah. [00:28:04] Sarah: And probably also not coming with this expectation that. Everyone you reach out to is gonna open your, their calendar [00:28:13] Cara: to you, you know, like, yeah, like when we connected initially, I was not expecting a one to one call. I, we live across the country, across the world from one another and we're both busy and eventually maybe we connect, but I genuinely just wanted to tell you that I really like what you're doing. [00:28:30] And I think that's people want to hear that it's people are open to hearing that you agree with them and that you like what they're doing. And if that's all it is, you've put some good energy out in the world and you can leave it at that. Right, [00:28:41] Sarah: exactly. It doesn't doesn't have to become a lead generation. [00:28:45] Cara: Yeah, it doesn't have to even become like a really intense networking like relationship there. We're going to have this whole gamut of closeness in our network, right? And we don't have the capacity to be really close. With a bunch of bunch of people like [00:29:00] 510 people, we're going to be really close with. [00:29:02] Um, and if we're all running in roughly the same circles, there's going to be opportunities for collaboration and referrals and those things. So it's a little bit of a leap of faith, but you got to just trust that if you're doing good work and you're helping people and people know you do it, that they're going to tell somebody exactly [00:29:20] Sarah: plant those seeds. [00:29:21] Yes, that's wonderful. Well, do you tell us a bit more about rattle and your community [00:29:28] Cara: and where people can find it? Yeah. The website is ravelcollective. com and it's for women B2B service entrepreneurs. So financial professionals, lots of marketers, content writers, stuff like that. Consultants. We've got some coaches, some, um, coaches for women entrepreneurs, and it's just a networking community, a really casual networking community where we Get to know each other. [00:29:50] A bunch of us are going to Mexico in a month together. I haven't met three of them, but I, and it's not an official event. I just said, Hey, I'm going to go to Mexico for a week and [00:30:00] do some like 2024 business planning. If anybody wants to join me, I've rented this house. And so it's not, you know, we probably won't talk business all the time, but. [00:30:09] It'll be fun. So we're kind of trying to put some of the fun and like person to person relationship back into business so that we can rely on, I don't know, our, our relationships to sustain us instead of, you know, just relying on ourselves. So yeah, it's 39 a month and it's month to month and it's just a space that I'm holding for women who want to build more professional relationships. [00:30:34] Sarah: We'll make sure to link to it. I always have one last question, uh, Cara, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week, this month? [00:30:45] Cara: Oh my goodness. I think I'm most grateful for my family this week. It's there's a lot of, there's a lot of lonely people out there and I have a wonderful husband and a, an amazing son and I'm really [00:31:00] grateful for them. [00:31:02] Wonderful. [00:31:03] Thank you for having me.
37:55 10/6/23
Marketing from Within
Today's conversation fits under the P of Personal Power If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. (If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps). It’s time for another short solo episode. This time I’d like to share a bit more about the 2nd P of Personal Power. I'll address: Why it’s key to know your Personal Power in Humane Marketing How defining your core values dictates how you show up in the world What other personality assessments you can use to learn more about who you are How all this information helps you understand your Unique Holistic Marketing Super Power And how to bring all of that into your story Ep 173 text [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. [00:02:34] Hello friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation, well, it's a solo episode fits under the P of personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's. of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here, a very warm welcome. [00:02:57] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but [00:03:00] you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And humane is with an E at the end. I noticed that non English speakers don't always know that human and humane are spelled differently. [00:03:24] So humane is with an E at the end. And this comes with a seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's time for another. short solo episode and this time I'd like to share a bit more about the second P, the one that stands for personal power. I'll be talking about why it's key to know your personal power in humane marketing, how defining your core values really dictates how you show up in the world, [00:04:00] what other personality assessments you can do. [00:04:02] News to learn more about who you are, how all this information helps you understand your unique holistic marketing superpower. How to bring all of that into your story and just create a business that is aligned with who you are and therefore, you know, also marketed from within. Who am I? That's the question here, right? [00:04:28] And so this is the other P together with passion or purpose, the first P that was completely missing in the traditional marketing model. Before we never looked at ourselves first. It was all about the customer because the customer was king. And so we had to kind of chase after this customer. So I really think it has to do with the human evolution. [00:04:54] We want to self actualize. So it makes sense to learn more about [00:05:00] ourselves first in order to then find out who's a good match for us. It's very aligned also with the inner development goals. Something that I'm recently very much fascinated by and. kind of following the movement, participating in the movement. [00:05:18] So if you haven't heard about the inner development goals, definitely look that up. It's the pendant of the sustainable development goals. But again, as the word says, it's starting within, starting with ourselves. And so it's the same here. We're starting marketing within, within, within ourselves. So it's really. [00:05:39] principle of the resonance, right? So that we find out who we are first in order to resonate with ideal clients who are aligned with us. And marketing with integrity really means marketing in our wholeness. So that's why we need to start with [00:06:00] ourselves. So the first thing we look at, and I'm sure you heard about this before, is our values. [00:06:07] You know, what are our core. Usually it's three or five. So if you haven't done this exercise yet or haven't done it recently, I really highly recommend that you look at your values again, because they actually also change. So there's a free core values assessment. If you Google personal values assessment, you'll, you'll find probably several, but Yeah, they're, they're all pretty much the same. [00:06:36] So you just pick first 10 values and then you narrow it down to five or three. And mine currently are freedom, curiosity, joy. health and honesty. So these are kind of my top five values. In her books, Brene Brown talks about her two [00:07:00] guiding values being courage and faith and how she always thinks about these main values whenever she makes a decision. [00:07:07] For example, freedom is my number one value whenever I don't feel free. I feel trapped and knowing that about myself has really helped me with business decisions. For example, I'm not an ideal fit for working with a business partner under the same company. I just wouldn't feel free to do whatever I want. [00:07:30] It also means that I do my best work with entrepreneurs who also often have this urge for freedom. A few years ago, I trained all the consultants of the local unemployment offices on how to help their clients with LinkedIn. And I really did not like it. They were not my people. They had been working at their jobs for. [00:07:55] And they didn't share this value of freedom and [00:08:00] curiosity and and the growth mindset. So yeah, looking at our values and knowing what they are and bringing them into our work and into our marketing and into our Business decisions is really really key. Another thing I talk about in the Marketing Like We're Human program under the personal P, personal power P, is the Myers Briggs personality assessment. [00:08:28] I'm sure all of us have taken that already at one point in our life. My type is INFJ, so knowing this about myself helps me understand more about my energy. That I'm more introverted and more intuitive. I'm not driven by numbers and stats. I love people but I need to refill my battery by being alone. [00:08:55] So, It's a, it's a good assessment to really know how, how [00:09:00] you're wired and it helps you again with your marketing and your business decisions because it, it teaches you how you do your best work, right? Another one we look at is the Enneagram. I don't know much about that, I think I'm a four, but it's also an interesting one to look at, so if, if that calls you maybe because of the drawing or it just speaks to you more, then definitely have a look at that. [00:09:29] Another one is the, the Strengths Assessment. So, it's called the V I A Institute of Character Strengths, and it's organized in 24 character strengths in different degrees, giving each person a unique character profile. And so, Then it also gives you kind of your six most important character strengths, and which is just also, you know, interesting to look [00:10:00] at. [00:10:00] So mine were Humility, Love of Learning, which is again similar to my Value of Curiosity, Judgment, which is the same J of INFJ. So Judgment, my Husband Tony always makes fun of me about that because I am quite a judgy also with people and say I don't like these pants Things like that, but that's not what it stands for in the Myers Briggs assessment It the J is really about planning everything ahead of time and not being so good with spontaneity And so that's very much me very You know future planning so judgment is my third. [00:10:46] Then fourth is creativity, which is still true. Then fifth is gratitude, which is also true. And then sixth is kindness. So again, it's a lot of confirmation, but knowing this about. [00:11:00] myself lets me tap into it more into, you know, bring that into my marketing. Like I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle. [00:11:10] Well, it is that, you know, kindness, for example comes out of this term. So it's just informs us about different aspects of ourself that we can bring into our communication and our business. Another one of these. It's not really an assessment. It's much bigger than an assessment. I don't know what you would call it. [00:11:35] It, it is human design that is based on astrology and a very similar type of thing is, is called gene keys. So you probably either know human design or you know gene keys, but they're very similar, I would say, because they're based on astrology. And I'm a five... One generator, so there's different profiles, [00:12:00] and I am really usually full of energy. [00:12:04] That's what the generator means. I, I, you know, intrinsically create energy. And so again, just kind of learning more about this human design and it goes into a lot of depth. If you're curious about human design, I highly recommend you listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who is a human design specialist. [00:12:29] And you can find that episode at humane. marketing. com forward slash H. M 1, 5 9. So very, very fascinating work that I dove into a few years ago, and it's still with me. I have my report in my desk, and every now and then I take it back out. I'm like, oh, yes, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. For example, it gave me the information that I'm actually meant to work with.[00:13:00] [00:13:00] One too many, so writing books, for example, or doing the group coaching, I thought that I was just meant to work one on one because I was an introvert and yet when the human report came out and I worked with someone on, on that. We realized, well, actually, no, it's not so much about one on one or not only about one on one. [00:13:26] So that was interesting for me. So yeah, have a listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who talks about human design. Yet another one is the fascination advantage. So that's more about. looking at how the world sees us rather than how we see the world. And this one really is more marketing oriented. [00:13:49] It's It's really interesting to find out also that often people see us differently from how we see ourselves. So the exact [00:14:00] words that people would use to describe us and the types of tasks that perfectly fit our personal brand and, and then it gives you these 42 personality archetypes, which seems like a lot. [00:14:16] But There's been a lot of research behind that and really it, it is, yeah, it is fascinating. And when I took it a few years ago, I came out as the maverick leader and my kind of Power was innovation and power. And now that I took it again, power stayed the same and innovation changed to mystique, which mystique is the language of listening, which also fits me well. [00:14:46] So it's just interesting to see and find out how the world sees you. And then also kind of receive this language that people would use. Well, I would never. [00:15:00] Describe myself as a maverick leader. I wouldn't put those words out there, but it's interesting to hear and see that maybe that's how people perceive me. [00:15:13] So yeah, very interesting information in that report. It used to be free. Now, unfortunately it's no longer free and it's. I think it's around 70 bucks a client you recently told me so, but I would say it's, it's, if you're interested in that kind of thing, it's definitely worth doing that once. So all these results really help us realize who we are and what we're good at and what our unique holistic marketing superpower is. [00:15:43] There's probably others. Oh, there's one I'm thinking of from Jonathan Fields called What's your SPARCA type? And that one is also a bit more like skills oriented like work oriented. So you'll find that on Jonathan Field's [00:16:00] website, or if you just Google SPARCA type and, and another interesting of these self assessments. [00:16:07] And again, we don't have to. You know, take these labels for granted. Things can change and we don't have to put ourselves into this box. But to me, it really informs us a bit about how we're wired and then. You know, we can tap into that and say, yeah let me explore this and find out how I can use this to my best advantage. [00:16:33] So, for example, if I'd work with a coach that told me that I have to speak on stage every week, that would really not work for me. I'd be totally outside of my comfort zone all the time and probably end up with a burnout in a few months. All about expanding our comfort zone every now and then, like I'm doing in a couple of weeks by going to a big summit about the inner [00:17:00] development goals in, in Sweden. [00:17:01] So again, these inner development goals that I mentioned earlier, it's just really right now at a topic that I'm fascinated. of and really interested in and so these summits are, they're, yeah, I'm an introvert as you know and so going to a big summit like that is, yeah, outside of my comfort zone, but it's. [00:17:25] Okay for me to expand that comfort zone every now and then, but for most of the time, I agree with my friend, Adam, who has this concept that he calls inside the comfort zone. And I think that's why we're doing these personality assessments and figuring out our unique, holistic superpower is that for most of the time we can operate within. [00:17:49] our comfort zone. And I really think we are our best selves and do our best work when we truly know who we are and bring all of us [00:18:00] to our work. No masks. We're not faking it until we are making it. Right? Most of the time, I would say probably 98 percent we do our best work if we are truly just who we are. [00:18:13] 2 percent of the time, yeah, we'll have to put on a little mask. And, and, you know, for me, it's usually kind of faking the small talk or, or pretending I'm fine when I'm actually having a headache, which happens a lot. But other than that. I just, you know, operate best if I'm truly inside the comfort zone and, and being my true self. [00:18:38] Another thing knowing my personal power helped me understand is that I need a lot of spaciousness in my days. Even though I call myself a conscious business coach, I don't enjoy coaching loads of clients at the same time. My brain just can't handle it. Another thing I didn't I mentioned so [00:19:00] much here is that I'm a highly sensitive person, that's, you know, it's not a, in a, in a personality assessment, but it's, it's a trait. [00:19:08] It's a personality trait. And so, Understanding this about myself that I'm highly sensitive and that my brain quite quickly probably more quickly than other people goes into overload, it just made me understand, well, I can't be this coach like other people are coaching all day long and having like six, seven coaching clients per day, it's, it's not good for me. [00:19:36] So that's why I shifted my business model to now work only with three. one on one clients at a time and they of course get then my full attention and I can over deliver because I'm not spread too thin. Besides the one on one clients, I then also offer the community and the group program and soon a second one that I'm [00:20:00] calling the business book alchemist. [00:20:02] If you're on my email list, you already know about this one. So another story that comes to about how my values helped me. Make a business decision is the story about the trademark issue with gentle marketing. If you've been in my world for a while, you already know this story that after I published the first book then called the gentle marketing revolution, I received a seasoned assist letter and was told I can no longer use that term. [00:20:33] And so. That was really, really hard, as you can imagine. But sticking to my values where a lot of people kind of even, you know, nice, like friends almost, like at least business friends told me, well, you know, maybe you can fight this. I'm sure there's, there's a gray zone because she's in the U. S. You're in Switzerland, you know, just lawyer up, get a lawyer and, and, and I'm sure you [00:21:00] can fight this. [00:21:01] And yet. That was going so much against my values. I'm like, I don't believe in competition. I believe in collaboration. I don't believe in owning stuff, especially gentle stuff, you know, gentle words. How could I, Sarah, own a word and say, this is now mine. Nobody. It's allowed to use it anymore, especially if I'm calling it a revolution, right? [00:21:29] And so it was just completely against my values to go and say, Hey, this is going to be mine. I'm going to fight for it. And so it really helped me. with my intention, intuition and, and saying, well, I need to let this go. I need to, you know, say, okay, fine. I understand legally, this is yours and I move on and find a new term. [00:21:56] And I think, yeah, the, the values and kind of [00:22:00] in my. moral principles really helped me in this in this decision, which of course wasn't easy, but in the end, I'm, I'm so glad this happened. So yeah, in conclusion, finding our personal power is all about marketing from within. Aligned with our values and really feeling a hundred percent grounded in how we're communicating and it helps you find then also the tactics that are aligned with you and tune out at the same time, all the other noise and all the other shoulds, for example, I'm not on Instagram, I'm no longer on Twitter, I've quit Facebook, I only release one podcast every two weeks now where everybody's saying, well, you should At least, you know, two episodes per week, but it just didn't work for me. [00:22:53] So I do things aligned with my energy and my personal power, the way that [00:23:00] feels good and not what the latest guru marketer tells me to do. And I really, really think. It's so helpful to know what your personal power is, right? What your personal holistic and humane marketing superpower is. And I truly enjoy helping others find their holistic and humane marketing superpower by By guiding them through this journey of finding out, well, how are you wired? [00:23:32] What's your, what are your values? What's, what's your worldview? And, and if you've read my Marketing Like We're Human book, I have a special reader offer that you can find on my website. If you go to humane. dot marketing under the tab books, it's kind of hidden away, it's under the tab books, not offerings. [00:23:51] And so you, you click at the bottom, it says special reader offer. And it's a one off power hour with me [00:24:00] that comes with a 16 page workbook that I'd like you to prepare and reflect on before our time together. So it's really, it's deep work and I'll have you. You know, look at some of these assessments and then we can figure out together, well, what is your humane and holistic marketing superpowers so that you too can tune out all the rest. [00:24:23] And maybe for you, it is Instagram, right? It's not going to be me saying, Oh, but for me, Instagram doesn't work. And so it shouldn't work for you either. It really depends on what you enjoy and how you're wired. And what your energy looks like. So if you're listening to this and think, oh, that would be really helpful, I'd love to help you and find more clarity and ease by figuring out your holistic and humane marketing superpower. [00:24:53] So again, it's at humane. marketing. And then you just look for the tab [00:25:00] books and underneath there, you'll. Find the special reader offer. I really hope you got some value from my ramblings about superpower and humane holistic superpowers. Maybe take some of the assessments that I mentioned. I think it's really, really helpful. [00:25:19] Personal Power is also the second module of the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator Program. So you can find out more about that by going to humane. marketing forward slash program. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:25:39] You can find out more about that at humane. marketing. com. Forward slash circle, you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M one seven three. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, [00:26:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course. [00:26:02] As well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. [00:26:22] Speak soon![00:27:00]
26:24 9/22/23
About Hosting Community Passion Projects
In today's episode, we dive into the P of Passion with our guest, Sophie Lechner, founder of The MAGNET Model. Join us as we explore Sophie's passion, the impact of her passion project, the , and how it all fits into the bigger picture of humane marketing. In this episode with Sophie, we talked about: Her community passion project called the Marketing Mutiny Why she created it and her goal with it What makes it different from an online summit How a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business How to create your own passion project and much more -- Ep 172 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:27] Hello, and welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of. passion. So we're back at the first P of the humane marketing mandala with the seven Ps of humane marketing. If you're new here, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing at humane. [00:02:55] marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. [00:03:00] And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So this is not a prescriptive, here are the things you need to do, uh, but more of the, well, here are some questions to, first of all, question all your assumptions around marketing, but then also help you reflect on these different piece for. [00:03:25] Your business. So today's guest is Sophie Leshner. Uh, after 25 years in corporate, Sophie became an entrepreneur and is now the founder of her second company, The Magnet Model. She helps mission driven entrepreneurs to find their audience on LinkedIn and engage with them so that they can spread the message and grow their business. [00:03:49] Over the last 20 years, her activity on LinkedIn has led to speaking engagements in the US and abroad. Podcast invitations, finding clients and JV partners, and [00:04:00] even an interview in Forbes. She created the magnet model to help entrepreneurs build the authentic relationships that will propel their mission forward. [00:04:09] Sophie works with clients one on one via courses, group programs, and workshops. This time I didn't invite Sophie to talk about LinkedIn. I invited her to talk about a passion project she calls the marketing mutiny, which as you'll find out is very much aligned with the humane marketing revolution. So we talked about her community passion project, uh, why she created it and her goal with it, what makes it different from an online summit, how a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business, how to create your own. [00:04:48] Passion Project and so much more. So without further ado, let's welcome Sophie Lechner to the show. Hi Sophie. So good to have you on the Humane [00:05:00] Marketing Podcast. [00:05:01] Sophie: Hi, Sarah. I'm delighted to be here. [00:05:04] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I just thought it would be such a great topic to talk to you in the, as you know, um, doing these conversations in the, in the piece of humane marketing. [00:05:16] And one of the first one is the passion P and I'm like, who do I know that is passionate and you and your passion project, uh, the marketing mutiny. Um, came to mind because I was just recently, recently participating or, or it kind of featured, I guess you would say. So, uh, I thought that makes a great conversations. [00:05:38] Uh, obviously it's very aligned with, uh, how we think here about, uh, marketing. So yeah. Why don't we get started with you kind of telling us about the marketing mutiny project, why you created it and what it is. [00:05:56] Sophie: Yeah. So I. Have been in the entrepreneurial world [00:06:00] for, what am I going to say, 11 years, and I have seen so many programs and so many tactics and so many, um, you know, shiny objects that come into the field of vision of new entrepreneurs. [00:06:16] And I have coached a lot of them, and I have seen the devastation, I want to say, that a lot of these marketing tactics, um, that it wreaks havoc with the entrepreneur's, um, life and ambition and, and, and their opportunity for growing because, you know, we come into the world of, Entrepreneurship with the passion we have for our, you know, our expertise, what it is we can help people with, but we don't know about marketing usually. [00:06:49] And so we start to sign up for all these different programs and then it gets overly complicated. It's the opposite of what you, you know, all of your marketing is about the [00:07:00] way you see, uh, um, entrepreneurship. So, um, I have seen in my coaching, a lot of entrepreneurs who are burnt out, discouraged, you know, don't understand what they need to do next. [00:07:15] And, and I just was getting more and more and more frustrated and then angry at all of this noise. And I thought there is another way of doing business, but a lot of people don't know it until they've gone through the whole process of getting burnt and, and, and sometimes they give up. And so I thought, well, what, you know, if you get angry enough, you get to a point where like, I got to do something about this and what can I do? [00:07:45] So I came across this kind of project and I thought, well, this is perfect. I will, I will, you know, get some people, invite them in, talk about it. And we'll just all together make as much noise as we [00:08:00] can about it. So we can crowd out all those aggressive marketers and. new entrepreneurs can hear about these humane ways of doing business. [00:08:12] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously it reminds me of my own story, my own, uh, you know, burnout sitting on a therapist's chair and, and all of that. And it's, it's interesting because You have 11 years. I have almost 15 years. So I think we've kind of been exposed to the same, you know, gurus and marketers and all of that. [00:08:33] And it's just, yeah, seeing that. Overwhelmed seeing that frustration from, from maybe ourselves, but also from all these people that we're coaching is just like too much is too much. And so, yeah, you, you, you calling it a project, which I really like. And I think we can give a shout out to Ellie Trier who, um, has been on the [00:09:00] podcast before, right. [00:09:00] And as a common friend of ours and, and she's kind of really like. Started this maybe idea of, of instead of calling it a marketing campaign, maybe calling it a marketing or not even calling it a project, right? Let's call it a passionate project because, yeah, it is tied into passion and maybe like you said, anger, but I, you know, that's great passion if there's some really strong emotion related to it, like anger. [00:09:31] Um, And what I love about it is this community aspect to it, you, you called it the conversation. So tell us about this a bit more how you structured this and, you know, people are probably commonly used to an online summit. So maybe compare it to an online summit. [00:09:52] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good starting point to give people sort of a frame of reference for how it worked. [00:09:58] The commonalities is that [00:10:00] you're bringing. Um, specific people to speak about a topic and so you have an overarching topic and then you're bringing these people to, to speak and contribute, you know, their, their thoughts to it. The big difference I find, and I was always frustrated with summits where, you know, you'd watch a video, you get really excited and then. [00:10:21] And then what? Like, you want to talk to the person who spoke and you want to talk to other people about it and you've got nowhere to go. You're kind of [00:10:29] Sarah: siloed. [00:10:30] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah, most of the time it's just like you're just... absorbing and no way to go. So I think everything happens through conversations. That's my passion is conversations and connections between people. [00:10:43] So I said, okay, I want to bring these people, but I want to create it in a way that will, it will generate conversations. Cause it's not about, well, it is of course about the 10 minutes that I have invited people to speak, but it's about all the thoughts [00:11:00] that it generates in the entrepreneurs who. I want to have benefit from this. [00:11:05] So I created a container where people can have these conversations and it was so lovely to have people, you know, react and, um, be able to comment and ask each other questions. And if I do it in my business, what that looked like, you know, that's what I wanted and it's worked. It was great. [00:11:27] Sarah: Yeah. And I love that you said you created the container. [00:11:31] Um, I think That's really what I'm doing with the Humane Marketing Circle, which you're also part of. And I think It's really does. It took me a lot of time to realize that hosting the container is is a lot of value because we're so trained to think, Oh, I have to, you know, create all these videos and create all this content and, uh, you know, yeah, [00:12:00] record thousands of speakers, things like that. [00:12:03] We're actually. The value is in the container and you then kind of facilitating in this container and then just bringing in these little, you know, thoughtful reflections that people can have conversations around. Do you feel like that people got that value? They understood that? [00:12:25] Sophie: Yes. And I also think that there's room for me to do something more with it. [00:12:33] So I'm kind of in a transition phase because what happened was this was a project. It was for a month and I had 10 entrepreneurs and then that was going to be it. Right. And what actually happened is that I, I don't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't know exactly what to expect. It was, it was a bit of an experiment, but I got a lot of interest and I got a lot of connections and I really enjoyed it. [00:12:57] And I think the people who were in it really enjoyed it. And [00:13:00] whenever I spoke about, Oh, I don't really want it to end. Everybody was like, no, keep it going. So I thought about, I had to change the format a little bit, but, um, it's now sort of an ongoing project. So I'm not doing them every other day, like during that month, cause that's just not sustainable, but I'm doing two a month. [00:13:22] And, um, [00:13:24] Sarah: Yeah, two, two speakers [00:13:26] Sophie: a month. Yes. So two new entrepreneurs who do marketing differently, uh, each month. And I had to streamline how it happens. And so I, I'm, I'm a little bit in the transition process right now. It's, you know, the momentum was not there anymore because I didn't look right away. So momentum is important as well when you're, you know, promoting something. [00:13:51] So, um, I think there is community and there's also room for changing and evolving how I can. nurture [00:14:00] that even better. Right. [00:14:01] Sarah: But, but I do feel like it's, it's become bigger than just a project for you to me. And by the way, we met through that. Right. And so obviously, yeah, our values are very much aligned. [00:14:16] And so it's not necessarily the outcomes maybe that you had sought, but then there's all these new people that you meet. And, and, um, to me, it's really nice. Like, Now this is part of your marketing. This is part of your worldview. Uh, Just like humane marketing is about the same ideas. Like let's do marketing differently, right? [00:14:39] And so marketing mutiny is now part of your worldview and you're a linkedin consultant in your you know day job And so people who will resonate with the marketing mutiny are gonna hire you Rather hire you than any other LinkedIn consultant because they resonate on that worldview level [00:15:00] and that's the beauty about this passion project. [00:15:03] I feel [00:15:04] Sophie: yeah, yeah. And you know, a lot of the values were already sort of what I was. Talking about and, and, and embodying in my content all the time. And so I think over time, I've been attracting these kinds of people who were attracted to this. Right. And then I think that's what caused marketing mutiny to be so popular, at least among my audience. [00:15:29] Um, and it kind of gave it a. A form, you know, a word, a name, a concept that people could really rally around. Before wasn't there was more, you know, amorphous. It was [00:15:43] Sarah: like abstract where now it's like, [00:15:46] Sophie: Oh, yes, this is the thing, you know, And I have to say one of the biggest benefits of the project that I did not expect. [00:15:55] And that I think is actually even better than anything I could have imagined [00:16:00] is. all the people that came out of the woodwork, so to speak, um, who I found out about, like you, for example, through the project. And so I realized as I was like not even halfway through that, you know, I had, I had Listed 10 and then as I was going through, I was like, Oh, but there's this person and that person and that person and I could actually have featured 20 or 30 and I was like, This is fantastic because that means because before it was, I was thinking, Okay, I have to make all the noise, you know, uh, to crowd out all those big marketing names. [00:16:38] And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. But you know, I'll do what I can. Now there's so many of us, we can really all get together. And, and be heard more, right, that was also, that was the biggest benefit. [00:16:54] Sarah: And maybe it's a good thing that, you know, you only, you only realized that they're [00:17:00] here because otherwise you would have been tempted to put everybody into the same month. [00:17:05] And then it would have been kind of like an overload again. And now you have all these people who are like. You know, you can really spread it out over, um, over time. So, so, so you said, okay, it's going to be an ongoing thing. So, so yeah. How do you see this evolving? [00:17:21] Sophie: You know, since I've started, I've, I've made, I have this list of people. [00:17:26] I'm actually now Booked, so to speak, till December, so whoever I invite next, which I'm at a point where I have to, like, withhold, I can't, like, invite someone and say, well, you'll be featured in January, you know, so it's a bit frustrating because I want more, but at the same time, there's a little bit, a little bit of, you know, behind the scenes work that needs to happen. [00:17:49] So, I've actually hired a VA part time to kind of help me with this, but it's not, you know, directly money generating. So I have to kind of, [00:18:00] you know, manage what's, what's bringing in. So anyway, um, [00:18:05] Sarah: No, I really like you address that point because I think That's the part of passion that we can easily kind of get overpassionate about. [00:18:15] And then, um, especially as, you know, givers, uh, in empaths, we're like, Oh, but this is so great. We want to do more. And then kind of go, uh, wait a bit. Um, you know, how do I, yeah. How do I manage in terms of The bills and now I actually need to hire somebody, you know, a VA to help me with it. So I'm actually putting money out of my pocket. [00:18:39] So it is a thing that you need to be realistic about and say, this is how much I can put in. And in a way, I don't know if you agree, but in a way you just kind of need to trust. That what you give in will come back many fold. [00:18:58] Sophie: Yeah, [00:19:00] exactly. Um, yes, in April, I had a absolute blast for all month, but you know, I didn't get much work done. [00:19:08] Right. Other than that, so clients and that was it. So it's finding that balance. You're absolutely right. On the, on the other hand, so like, yeah, I could do one a week, but it's just not the same. But on the other hand, like you said, there's, There's a momentum, there's conversations that happen. I mean, look at you and I. [00:19:29] So we met and I was like, wow, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So I, you know, signed up for your circle. I'm on your podcast. So there's like all these benefits through that more people would hear for about me and you know, maybe become clients. So it's a whole ecosystem and I think that's exactly what you teach with the seven Ps and Humane Marketing. [00:19:53] Um, So yeah, it's, you got to find that balance. [00:19:57] Sarah: It's trusting the invisible. It almost feels [00:20:00] like, you know, that is not often what we hear in marketing. It's more about the stats and numbers and conversions. And, and, and here we're talking about something intangible, intangible and kind of, yeah, invisible. [00:20:15] And, and yet we know it, it works. But while we're still in the moment, it's a bit, yeah, sometimes a bit scary to trust it. [00:20:26] Sophie: Yeah, a concrete example of that is that, you know, for the, um, for the integrity of the project, I wanted people to be able to sign up to get the emails to get, you know, the contributions, the videos, etc. [00:20:42] But I didn't want them to go on my regular list. Right. Yes. You know, that's all from marketing my, my, my offer. Right. Right. And so I, I, I set up this place separately on my system and they were tagged and they were [00:21:00] excluded from the other emails. And then I had a few people say, well, you know, you're saying that we're not going to receive your email. [00:21:05] What, what if we want to, so I added a line, like, you know, you're not on my main list, but if you want to, you know, and, um. And through that, and through being on LinkedIn, and through looking, you know, just finding out peripherally about me, a lot of the people did sign up for my list. So it's, it's interesting to see those dynamics, like people were just in there, in there for the marketing mutiny, but then they wanted to hear more about the rest of me and what I do. [00:21:36] So yeah, it ended up, you know, being good. A couple of people are, have big complaints. [00:21:42] Sarah: That's, that's so interesting. It's, it's almost like, As marketers, because I also see you as a humane marketer, right? We, we almost want to, especially because we're kind of going against the bro marketing, we're like, Oh, we gotta be super careful about what we're [00:22:00] doing. [00:22:00] And then we always almost take it to a level where people then go. But I wanted this. So please, you know, send me your emails. Um, yeah, I, I have added this, this line to my promotions, kind of the, the, the, the big programs, uh, where can unsubscribe also from the, the emails. Um, And thanks to Adam, who's in our, uh, our circle as well, who, who taught us how to do that. [00:22:27] And I wanted to, but I never figured it out. So now I, I know. And then I also have people, Oh, I accidentally pushed that link. And now can you please, I want to keep receiving your emails. I'm like, wow, that's unexpected. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really interesting how we have. We're kind of like walking on eggshells now because we're like, oh yeah, we definitely don't want to do the pro marketing thing. [00:22:54] Yeah. But then, yeah, we, we don't want to block people out either. So. [00:23:00] Yeah. [00:23:00] Sophie: Yeah. And it's interesting how it really, I find our kind of marketing really changes the relationship that we have with our readers, with our audience, you know, especially, but even just our audience, like there's something You know, like a human connection that I feel is not there when you're in some of these other people's lists. [00:23:22] it's just a transaction. It's just a piece of piece of paper. It's an email, but you know, it's concrete. It's not, there's no humanness in it. So yeah, [00:23:33] Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's the transparency. What I always say, humane marketing, how is it different? It is really about the transparency and explaining everything you do. [00:23:45] So by, you know, you saying you're not going to be added to my list. But if you want to, then, you know, you can do so here where until now, everything has been so kind of in the [00:24:00] shadow and, you know, kind of like shady and, and. That's what people, that's what has created this huge mistrust in marketing. It's like, Ooh, you know, what if I put my email in and then I'm going to get all of these things where here it's like, well, it's all out there. [00:24:17] This is what's going to happen. Um, so I feel like really this, this transparency is so key in, in my [00:24:25] Sophie: Absolutely. And I think a lot of it has to do with. letting people have their agency. And that was actually what one of the contributors in the April marketing mutiny, um, that was the, her value that she mentioned in her video was agency, your customer's agency. [00:24:43] And I think that's what we are robbed of by the bro marketers, bully marketers is, you know, like you, you, you sign up for something and you, you, you kind of feel like you're being sucked into something. You don't have full agency over what happens next. [00:25:00] Right. Um, I think that's one of the key elements that we, you know, um, uh, for our. [00:25:08] Our audience. [00:25:09] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's all about giving the power back. I really feel like the last 10 years we have disempowered our clients and giving the power back. Um, what I'd love us to, uh, I'd love you to share is kind of like if listeners are like, wow, that project sounds interesting. Um, if they wanted to run their own kind of community project, what would you tell them? [00:25:38] Uh, where should they start? Like, um, you know, what do they need to think about first? What would make a good topic? Maybe things [00:25:46] Sophie: like that. Yeah. So I think what's very important is to find a topic that You feel strongly about emotionally that others will [00:26:00] rally around so think of it as a movement, right? [00:26:03] And you can start it small. You don't have to be scared by the word movement, but that's what I feel. Marketing mutiny is right. It's it's this idea with all kinds of ramifications underneath, but it's an overarching concept that It's your standing for something or against something. Um, it's a big idea. [00:26:25] It's something people can rally around. That to me is the key thing for, uh, a project like this. Right. Um, it can also be, um, a topic where you want... to have people explore different, um, different aspects of, of, um, a topic. So I don't know, like, um, let's say burnout, you know, like, there's a lot of [00:27:00] Issues with burnout, all kinds of reasons why burnout happens, all kinds of therapies you can use, you know, there's like a lot of different avenues. [00:27:11] And so you can take a topic and then explore all the different ways of talking about it and how that can become bigger conversation. Yeah, that's what I would say. [00:27:24] Sarah: What I was thinking while you were talking is like, usually, you know, a marketer or a business coach would tell you to have like this goal for this project. [00:27:36] It's like, oh, you know, they have these beautiful conversations and then Sophie comes in and sells them this LinkedIn consulting package, but that's not how it went. Right. So how do we, it's really like this mindset shift is like, wait a minute, I'm just hosting conversations. And there's not like a funnel what they're going to do next. [00:27:57] And then they're going to, you know, go on this [00:28:00] webinar and buy this thing. So, yeah, tell us the reasoning behind that. [00:28:05] Sophie: Yeah, I, uh, I obviously subconsciously thought it was, uh, you know, um, uh, goes without saying but clearly, clearly it's not, I shouldn't think that. So yes, it has to be a topic that is. you know, related to what you do or your, or that reflects your worldview that impacts how you do business, but it should not be. [00:28:30] And some people have used these projects. to, you know, actually get leads and get them into a funnel and all of this. Um, but I think it is really critical. It's the same thing I say about how to use LinkedIn, but you know, that's another story, but it's critical to disassociate from the outcome. Just leave. [00:28:52] the outcome. Do it for the beauty of it. Do it for the conversations. Do it because it's good for [00:29:00] society and the world at large to have this conversation and to raise awareness of whatever the topic you've chosen. Um, so yeah, no, if you, if you do it with I mean, I'm, I'm, I have no doubt it would work in bringing you leads, you know, but that is not the reason you should be doing it. [00:29:25] You should do it or not for that reason. [00:29:27] Sarah: Right. I, I also think that, you know, like you even said, the clients will emerge out of it, um, but it's in that organic, humane way, uh, because they, they resonate with your worldview and with your passion so much. And you just happen to be very, very good at LinkedIn. [00:29:49] So it's kind of like, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm [00:29:53] Sophie: also that, yeah. It's a good, it's a good backdrop because, you know, when, when people You [00:30:00] know, hear about me through marketing mutiny and they realize, Oh, actually I do have this LinkedIn question problem, whatever. Um, they know already that the way I'm going to approach LinkedIn is not going to be sending a hundred DMS a day and, you know, sending spammy DMS. [00:30:19] I mean, they, they know that. So it's, it's exactly. [00:30:24] Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It's like part of your worldview. And that's by the way, why I transitioned out of LinkedIn, because I was like, you know, I could not deal with another, uh, you know, discovery call where people were asking me to sell a thousand leads or get them a thousand leads. [00:30:43] And I'm like, this is just not for me. And, and I see now, obviously that I transitioned out of it. That I should have led with humane marketing, just like you're doing. That's how you then get the right people. So, so yeah, totally, [00:31:00] totally makes sense. [00:31:01] Sophie: Yeah. When somebody comes to me saying, you know, can you, what's a good way of. [00:31:06] Phrasing my DM outreach. I'm like, Oh, wrong person to have a very short conversation. [00:31:17] Sarah: Yeah. Another, uh, kind of similar event type that I've just, um, seen, um, um, patchy don't know if you know, patchy, um, another common friend. Yeah. So she's doing some kind of round table, uh, event. And I really also resonated with that approach where it's, you know, still a conversation, but it's a roundtable, uh, conversation. [00:31:44] And I, yeah, I'm really looking forward to that as well. So I think, you know, it's, it's in the zeitgeist, it's like, well, people don't want to just be talked down to, or, or kind of like talked to and, and, um, they want to, they [00:32:00] want to be heard and seen and have conversations. Yeah. [00:32:03] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really breaking down the barriers, you know, like summits are, you know, you're over there in the summit, you know, video and I'm here in my office and that's it. [00:32:16] And, um, with these projects, it's like, oh, so how. I could see myself absorbing some of that information because I can have that back and forth. I can interact with the person presenting. I can talk with other people about how, what it would look like. And it makes it. It makes it all possible. It makes it all, you know, usable and [00:32:40] Sarah: it's approachable because you don't feel like, Oh, look at these, you know, gurus who are the summit speakers and they're so attached from everything. [00:32:50] Where now it's like, well, they're just part of the conversation. Yeah. Same human level. Yeah. [00:32:57] Sophie: I think people were surprised at first, they were like, [00:33:00] oh, so the person in the video is actually responding to me? [00:33:06] Sarah: They're so famous, they can't even respond to it. That's funny. Um, yeah, please do tell us where people can join the Marketing Mutiny now that it's an ongoing thing. I'm sure all the listeners are like, oh, tell us how. Yeah. [00:33:22] Sophie: Yeah. So. As I said, I was, you know, I'm transitioning to a new way of doing it because I didn't want to have to send all these emails. [00:33:31] And so I've streamlined it for myself and to be able to continue doing it. So what I've decided to do is to actually feature the entrepreneurs in my LinkedIn newsletter. The reason I did that is because I have quite a bit big, um, following there. And so those people will get an email with the newsletter. [00:33:54] So every other newsletter, it's kind of my going on goings on about [00:34:00] LinkedIn and every other newsletter is, um, a marketing entrepreneur being featured. So that's the way to, um, receive this information. And then the conversation takes place. in the comments to the newsletter, which are then, you know, um, all gathered in the LinkedIn group. [00:34:21] And that's, that's behind the scenes. If people want to have one place to find everything that's in the LinkedIn group. [00:34:27] Sarah: Wonderful. All right. So we'll link to the newsletter, uh, in that case in the show notes and, and people can find it there, or I guess otherwise they can also come to your website. So what's your website URL? [00:34:40] Sophie: Yes. My website is themagnetmodel. com and, uh, there's the second part of that link. If you want to go straight to all the marketing mutiny stuff is marketing mutiny ebook. So themagnetmodel. com slash marketing mutiny ebook. It's a bit long, but we'll put it in the [00:35:00] show, you put in the show notes, [00:35:01] Sarah: right? [00:35:01] Wonderful. Yeah. And I assume people can find you on LinkedIn because that's where you mostly hang out. That's probably [00:35:09] Sophie: the easiest of all. It's just find me there and you'll find all the, all the stuff, all the stuff about LinkedIn, but all the stuff about the marketing you can do [00:35:18] Sarah: there. Well, thank you so much for having this passion project conversation. [00:35:24] I, I really loved it and I love what you're doing and I love having you in the humane marketing circle. So thank you for that. Uh, I always have one last question that I ask all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:35:41] Sophie: I am grateful for all the wonderful people, including you, that I've discovered through Marketing Mutiny and for the joy of doing business in a way that is Aligned with what I love, aligned with what I am passionate about.[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Um, and this is the way to be an entrepreneur and every day is a joy. So that's what I'm grateful for. [00:36:07] Sarah: Thank you. Me too. Great hanging out with you. Thanks so much. Thanks [00:36:13] Sophie: for having me, Sarah. [00:36:16] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this episode about the P of passion. So important to find this purpose in your business. Please join the marketing mutiny at marketing mutiny. [00:36:28] org. And you can also find out more about Sophie and her LinkedIn work at themagnetmodel. com where you'll also find a great quiz to find out what kind of LinkedIn user you are. Sophie is an active member of the Humane Marketing Circle. So if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the circle? [00:36:50] You can find out more about our community at humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. [00:37:00] marketing forward slash H M 1 7 2. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing, like we're. [00:37:18] Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon![00:38:00]
38:08 9/8/23
Global Online Communities with Eddy
Join us for another episode as we dive into the world of communities with the Eddy Augusto, the community facilitator of the Humane Marketing Circle. Eddy shares thought-provoking perspectives on the distinction between communities and audiences, drawing from real-life examples, talks about the essence of "Community" and explains the numerous benefits of communities, for its members and the brand. Eddy's definition, "When at least two people begin to feel concern for each other’s welfare," encapsulates the spirit of community. Listen to this episode if you’re considering to host your own community, or be part of one. In this amazing episode Eddy and I talk about: the definition of a community, and how it’s different from an audience the criteria of a healthy community how communities benefit the members as well as the brand our own experience within the Humane Marketing Circle and much more --- Ep 171 transcription [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Dot marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Partnership, and if you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. [00:02:50] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at [00:03:00] humane. marketing forward slash one. Page, the number one and the word page. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. [00:03:13] So partnership is probably my favorite P of the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It's also my priority among the 17 sustainable development goals. Uh, goal number 17 is also about, about partnership. So I really think like we, uh, Win if we collaborate more and so I made that really my priority this year with the collaborative workshops that I'm hosting for the members of the humane marketing circle, but also they're open to the public and I bring in these different people that I think are very, very smart, uh, human beings that have a certain expertise that does members of the circle [00:04:00] and, uh, the outside community are interested in. [00:04:03] And this, these collaborations have been just so joyful. They like, they, they were so. Easy to set up, they're fun to organize. And so, yeah, I'm going to continue with these, uh, partnerships for sure. So today we talk about the P of partnership to a community or within the community. And I bring you our very own Eddie Augusto, the community facilitator of our Humane Marketing Circle to talk about communities. [00:04:37] So Eddie is an entrepreneur and self directed learning facilitator with a background in computer science and computer engineering. He decided to pursue a more authentic and innovative path in his career and personal life. He specializes in community building, collaboration, and self directed. education. [00:04:58] He holds a degree [00:05:00] in socio environmental design from Gaia University, collaborative project design from Colab Design, and self directed learning architecture from Masters of Learning, along with other certifications in non violent communication and agile learning. Currently, Eddie works as a community designer, facilitator, and manager, helping businesses to create an environment where people feel belonging and care for each other. [00:05:26] with their customers. Eddie also works as a mentor, helping people to live an intentional lifestyle, purposefully and consciously seeking to align their actions, choices, and values with their personal goals and values. He believes that communities that learn together are the future and works to assist them in developing these collaborative. [00:05:48] Learning skills. In this amazing episode with Eddie, we talk about the definition of a community and how it's different from an audience, the [00:06:00] criteria of a healthy community, how communities benefit the members as well as the brand, our own experience with the Humane Marketing Circle, and so much more. [00:06:11] I'm just so thrilled to share this conversation with you. So here's Eddie and I talking about communities. [00:06:21] So good to speak to you. It's a, it's a different setting, but it's still just us. Right. So really excited to have you on the humane marketing podcast.  [00:06:31] Eddy: Very happy to be here, Sarah, to talk about a subject that I love, which is communities.  [00:06:37] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, you are the, I guess as a, as a, an introduction, you are the community facilitator for the Humane Marketing Circle. [00:06:48] I think it would be a funny story to tell how I came across you. So I actually found you on Fiverr of all places, right? So I was looking [00:07:00] for a community. I think I probably put in community manager. That's usually the term that I was familiar with. And, and then I just kind of, you know, saw what was there. [00:07:11] And, and immediately when you were, uh, you were very, you know, how you are also in person, how I know you are, you're very firm about your beliefs. And I love that about you. And it was like very clear on this fiber page. It said, I only work with. Purpose driven or something like that you explain who you work with and, you know, that's the only work you're interested in. [00:07:36] So I'm like, yeah, this is my guy. So that's That's how we, uh, got in touch and it's just, uh, yeah, it's when I think back, it's like Fiverr out of all places, but yeah, people always ask me, have you ever been lucky with Fiverr? I'm like, I have been lucky very, uh, quite a few times with Fiverr, so. Here we are. [00:07:56] It's probably a year later and [00:08:00] I'm talking about communities now. So, yeah, why don't we start with, um, kind of like an introduction to communities, you know, maybe, like, maybe we can start with. defining communities, you know, what is, what is a community? What makes a community?  [00:08:19] Eddy: Yeah, sure. Um, so community is a very old word, right? [00:08:28] Uh, which has a very broad meaning as well. And then community would be individuals who have, who share something, who share a purpose or who share a place where they live, um, and for, for, uh, but this meaning is not enough for us to, to talk about, uh, what we want to talk here about and what I like to talk about, um, is about intentional communities.[00:09:00]  [00:09:00] Where we are a community because we want to be a community. So there is an intention of being part. It doesn't happen by, by, by accident. Uh, so I think this is the first thing to, to, to say the difference between a community by accident, like a class, for instance. Um, or an intentional community here. I think we will talk about the intention community where people, they have a clear purpose and they want to connect, um,  [00:09:33] Sarah: Rather than in a class where you have to be there, right? [00:09:37] Eddy: Yes, exactly. So the, the word community has been used in so many ways, uh, mainly lately. And I don't really like that, to be honest, I like to, when I talk about community, I am speaking of something which is not just [00:10:00] people having the same purpose, but they have connection between them, they care about each other and there is this sense of care, genuine care. [00:10:11] So, and we could give an example, would a gym be... community, right? Uh, well, people, they have the same purpose. They go there to, to get fit. Um, well, it could be, but it's not necessarily right. So people can go in and go out without saying a word to each other, without knowing each other's name. Uh, but they can also do something like CrossFit has been doing. [00:10:39] Uh, they start, they can start to train together and to go for challenges together, uh, right? So, they can build the community. Um, so that's why I like to, to point out that we are speaking about intentional communities and that intentional communities is not... Neither social media. I really see like, [00:11:00] as you said, you looked for a community manager and in my page in Fiverr. [00:11:04] It was written very well. I don't take care of social media and someone and someone who's normally looking for a for a community manager as most of people call it. Uh, they would be like, then what do you do, what do you do? [00:11:23] Now,  [00:11:23] Sarah: it's so true. And what you say about this, uh, fact that, you know, community, it's almost like a buzzword now, everybody uses it. And I think what you're also addressing is the idea of, uh, An audience versus a community, because that's where I see it, uh, misused often in, you know, kind of this online space, people are calling their. [00:11:49] Audiences communities. So like they would call their Facebook group, uh, community, which again, we could argue that maybe there is a [00:12:00] common purpose. Um, for a Facebook group. But the big question is really, well, are they connected with each other? Or are they only connected to the guru, you know, the leader of this audience and even more is there a selling intention from the guru to the audience, right? [00:12:22] That's really where the difference is between a community that cares and that there's care in between the members and the community leader that only cares about his wallet being filled. And so then, then it's more an audience. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:12:39] Eddy: Yes, exactly. Um, yeah, this difference between like managing your audience and building a community. [00:12:49] And I think we can, we can give some principles to understand it better. And we could say that a community, an intentional community, what we are [00:13:00] speaking of here right now, uh, is something that is purpose driven. So it is not for, uh, of course, we all want to earn money with the community as well. We want everybody to earn a lot of money and have abundance in their lives. [00:13:16] But it is purpose driven and it is relationships first. So, like, It is not about the image of the guru of the boss, and it is about building relationships. Um, we could measure the quality of this community by the amount of connections that there are and the strength of the connections between the people. [00:13:40] Um, and I think there is also this continuous improvement on how we can better manage this community, how we can improve the connections between people. And also I think, and so I think this is, this would be like the basic principles that can already [00:14:00] differentiate, uh, from audience, right? And I think we can learn a lot from indigenous people. [00:14:07] Um, they teach us a lot about community. And personally myself, I was first interested in live communities, like people living together, having a common common sense and et cetera. And then later on, I started to study how we could also, how might we create that online in the pandemics? And it is, and then I discovered that it is possible and technology is here for that. [00:14:38] We can use technology with. Um, with a clear purpose and with intentionality, and we can build communities online and, and actually one of the best things that communities online make is to make real friends who will find each other in real life as well. Yeah. So the two worlds, [00:15:00] they, they merge. Right. And I  [00:15:03] Sarah: would just, would you, would you agree? [00:15:05] Sorry, go on. Yeah. Would you agree to say that? Um, you know, this is obviously the ideal picture of a community. Um, and I feel like in the humane marketing circle, we're getting there. And there's definitely already a lot of connections happening in between members. Uh, we see projects being created. Uh, and yet, It is, I think, as a community leader, if we now talk from the community facilitator point of view, leader point of view, it is probably really one of the things that, um, I wouldn't say hard, but it's like That's, they need still support with that. [00:15:50] You can't just assume, Oh, we now have the people and now just, you know, be all happy and friends. Um, so I feel like that's something that we are [00:16:00] constantly working on in the, in the circle. So, so, and that's what you're working on as well. And, and you're, you are, um, creating these network weaving calls as we, as we call them. [00:16:12] So, so. Really focusing, actually, I'll let you explain them. So, so how does the net weaving calls feed into these interrelationships between the community members?  [00:16:26] Eddy: Right. I love this point that you are bringing up now because yeah, sometimes people think that it is just put all these people in the same room and let them speak to each other, but our education is such that we are, um, We are used to some kind of behavior, some kind of ways to, um, to connect or to, to keep disconnected, uh, when we are engaging with people in conversations, when we are meeting new [00:17:00] people. [00:17:00] Uh, and there is also like, uh, we, we sometimes need some time to break the ice and et cetera. Uh, so I really think that the facilitation, uh, now speaking about community facilitation, it is about setting the space, uh, for, for the connections to happen. And these we make with pro, uh, appropriate, appropriate. [00:17:24] Uh, methods and appropriate tools. Uh, so we design, will it be one by one in, in, in breakout rooms? Uh, what will be the question that will, that we will bring for them to wander and to talk about? Uh, so we, we try to design something that gets out of the, um, uh, the normal, the conventional, right? Because then we get out of the, of, of the automatic. [00:17:51] And then we can really get to know each other for real. And from this point, we build stronger relationships in much [00:18:00] less time. So I think it is all about that. And the net weaving connections that we make in, in our, uh, in our community. And also, I bring this in every community that I work with, my community or as a service. [00:18:17] The net weaving connections, the net weaving call, sorry, is a moment that is, the main purpose is to build connections with people. And it is funny because normally, most of the people, they take time to see the importance of that. They don't want to go there. No. Go there just to meet people, you know? Yeah, I don't have time  [00:18:41] Sarah: for  [00:18:41] Eddy: that, right? [00:18:42] Exactly. It's not my, my, my priority to meet people, you know, but I'm coming to the conclusion more and more over time that it is exactly this meeting people with intentionality. So it's not just about hanging out with whoever, wherever, [00:19:00] and speaking about whatever as well. Uh, but it is about being in a specific place with a specific shared purpose, with a specific designed space, uh, for the thing to happen. [00:19:12] And I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that this very thing is... What brings us more partnerships in business and more health and more, uh, there is a very recent research that I love that they have researched the whole life of a bunch of people in the United States. From childhood until, until, um, uh, late, uh, until, until 80s, you know, and they have showed that one of the main things that people, uh, who, who have been happy in most of their lives they have in common is that they have strong family connections, strong [00:20:00] friend connections. [00:20:01] And, and I think that it is very important for us to keep that in mind, like, what is the final purpose in the end? What it is all about, you know, uh, making business and et cetera, and making partners going here and there, taking an airplane, uh, making people, um, passing time and hours and hours, spending hours in front of the computer sometimes. [00:20:24] What it is all about. Bye bye. And for me, it is really about being self, uh, feeling self, self fulfilled, feeling happy, uh, feeling that we are useful. And as this research shows, I will look for the link later on, and then if you want, you can put it in the description. Yeah, um, well. It really, it is really about the connections we make. [00:20:50] So, um, yeah.  [00:20:52] Sarah: You know, as you're talking, um, I'm thinking of another, uh, word that we often use in the business language, which is the [00:21:00] networking group, right? And so that's another kind of confusion that some people confuse a community with a networking group or a networking group with a community. And so I think it's really important also to point out that a community, at least our community and the way I think you see and I see communities is not a networking group. [00:21:23] So it's not a place where you just come to, uh, you know, get clients and create business. And I think that's the new kind of reality that we're creating, uh, in the Humane Marketing Circle, which is a community that is business oriented because we're mainly talking about marketing and growing our business, uh, in a different way. [00:21:48] And yet it relies on friendship and personality, personal connections, and authenticity, uh, first, right? So that is, [00:22:00] So different from the typical networking events that I ever went to not really doing them anymore, but where you are just showing up as a business person. Uh, what we're trying to create, uh, in the, in the community is. [00:22:16] Holistic community, I guess. It's like where you show up as a whole person. You are, uh, you know, on one hand, yes, you are in business. You are a business person, but the friendships, they don't happen so much on the business level. They happen on the personal level. And that's why we're kind of creating these spaces where. [00:22:37] We're allowing, you know, the whole human to, to be there and connect on this deeper level. That is never the personal, the business level. It's always the personal level. Right. And so we find like communities that are business oriented. Are probably even harder to create, uh, at least the [00:23:00] way we want to create them because it's like this mindset shift. [00:23:02] It's like, Oh, I'm not just coming to get something, but I'm also coming to give and really invest that time. It's a slower approach to, to business in a way. Would you, would you agree with that?  [00:23:18] Eddy: Yes, for sure. This, there is a question that I love to bring in net weaving calls, which is who are you besides your work? [00:23:27] Exactly. You know, because we are so used. Oh, Sarah, what do you do for a living? And then you start to speak about what brings you money in your life, you know, but this is just a tiny part of Sarah. And in the problem, let's let's talk about a bit about the problem, right about business oriented, um, kinds of community, if we call that, um, well, there is [00:24:00] so many people. [00:24:01] With so many clients and so many, so much money, and yet they don't feel self-fulfilled yet, they don't feel happy about what they do, and I think this is what we are trying to do differently. We are trying to make business. As it goes along with our purpose, with our mission, with our life, with who we are, we don't need to use a mask. [00:24:27] Uh, we can expand our being, uh, in connection to people. And I think this is all about, um, marketing as we are humans. And this is all about, um, community in the way we are talking here. Intentional, intentional communities. It is about taking, uh, getting out of this. Automatic way of doing everything, um, which is quite a void, empty. [00:24:55] We feel empty in the end and, and realizing that and trying to do [00:25:00] things, uh, with meaning and with consciousness, uh, bringing consciousness to everything that we are doing. And I think that community is like the one, the only way that we can go. Yeah,  [00:25:13] Sarah: yeah, yeah. No, so true. What I just also thought is that, um, You know, usually in business, you have these membership sites or kind of like learning programs where the idea is to have everybody at the same level so that then there is something that is being taught and we go through a program and then, you know, you take people from level A to level B. [00:25:39] And so it's intentional that everybody is in the same level. Uh, if I think about a community, let's take, you know, an, an inden indigenous community or, uh, you know, I grew up in a hippie community, right? Uh, there was not everybody at the same level. Everybody had different experiences. Everybody had, you know, [00:26:00] different age. [00:26:01] Um, and so that's also what we're trying to build into, uh, the humane marketing circle. It's not, For, you know, only for beginner business owners or only for business owners that make six figures or, you know, that horrible language that we don't like, um, it really is kind of like all over the spectrum because, um, everybody needs community. [00:26:26] It's not like, oh, only these, you know, people need community, only beginners need community or only experts need community. I think that's an essential part. And I actually think that, you know, people come with different things that they can bring and different things that they need. So if I think about the people in the community who have more experience, um, They, they, what they want is maybe to, you know, come as mentors and share their knowledge and, [00:27:00] and create, uh, other visibility, uh, opportunities for themselves. [00:27:04] They don't need so much of the, you know, initial advice. But they still feel like they're being seen and heard and recognized and, and useful. Right. And I think that's also a new concept in the business world. It's like, Oh, we don't just put everybody in the same bucket. We're actually kind of looking at, uh, people as a whole and, and accept everybody and bring everybody in as a leader in their chair, wherever they are in there. [00:27:33] Experience. How does this apply to other communities that you that you have seen or worked with?  [00:27:41] Eddy: Um, yeah, I, I see these that you're saying, like, uh, as a belief that comes from military things, you know, and then, and then it gets to the school where we separate, uh, children by age, you know, Uh, and it looks like we are getting, you [00:28:00] know, uh, older and then we are getting smarter because we have, uh, understood more content. [00:28:07] But in the end, as you say, like, there is such a big opportunity when we, when we merge, uh, beginners with people who are experienced. And, um, and I see it as, uh, the ideal, actually, the ideal pool of a community for learning, uh, purpose, for learning purpose. I think it is this pool of beginners and experienced people. [00:28:34] And I think that the way it also, uh, our, uh, our, our role as community managers, uh, for in this, uh, is to realize the participation of people, what they are giving and pointing it out for the whole community. Uh, hey, um, hey, Sarah, hey, hey, community, uh, Sarah this month, she took a lot of [00:29:00] energy to build this and that for you. [00:29:02] Uh, hey, community. Eddie this month he is offering a session, you know, let's thanks, uh, Adam because he was this month, uh, you know, taking care of the community. So we are like pointing out and bringing attention to the, um, um, to what people are doing for the well, for the welfare of the others. Um, and I think And this is a way to, because yeah, the more experienced people, how can we, how can they feel like they are learning and getting the best of it by practicing what they already have experienced or by learning how to teach what they already have experienced. [00:29:44] So we, we can give more responsibility. And then here we, we are already starting to talk about benefits for the brand, because even if we are not. Driven by, uh, by money. And when we are driven by [00:30:00] purpose, uh, a brand can be driven by purpose. And what are the benefits for the brand, right? Um, I'm going from one, uh, I'm connecting, right? [00:30:11] Uh, subject to the other one, just to say that, yeah, the benefit for, for the brand is, and for the members as well, is Having, uh, in a life space of learning, of constant learning. And because... When people, they identify themselves, um, to, to this place where they feel welcome and they feel belonging. They want to talk about it. [00:30:44] They want to be part of it. They want to bring new people to, to this place because they love being there. Um, and I'm, and it is real, you know, it's how I feel. So I think this is the benefit that, uh, the brand has. [00:31:00] Because we are, we are really talking about loyalty with members. We are talking about extra value out of contribution and collaboration from members who are willing to do what they are doing. [00:31:15] We, we don't even have to ask them because they love being part of the thing and they want to contribute. Uh, and for me the, this is amazing, you know, and for the members, And the benefits for the members, um, I see like, you know, we, what in the end, how do we learn things, uh, new things in the end, right? How do we really actually learn? [00:31:45] It is not just by reading a book, it is not just by, by taking on a course, uh, and it is not just by being in a WhatsApp group. Um, we really [00:32:00] learn stuff. When we are exposed to new information, and then we are able to test it with what we already believe, what we already know. And then we have a safe space to make new trials with this new information that we've got. [00:32:21] And then we obtain knowledge from, from this. Uh, tests that we have tried, right? And for me, uh, this is the thing about community. What I, what, what we are coming to the conclusion, I feel like it is a world movement. We are understanding that we are finding finally getting that is that being around people who resonate with you, uh, and who want to learn. [00:32:49] Things that are similar to what you want to learn is the best way to learn whatever you want to learn because you have a space. to be [00:33:00] exposed to that, to learn new things and to test out your new ideas. And then you really have in your body the knowledge, um, and you have a place to practice. So I think this is what we are coming to the conclusion. [00:33:15] And this is the importance of community. It is like the difference between, um, taking on a yoga retreat of one week and our. are living with yoga people, you know, and practicing and seeing them practicing every morning, every morning you wake up, you wake up late, they are practicing yoga, you wake up late, they finished their yoga, you know, like after a week, you're like, okay, I'm going to wake up today a bit earlier now try to practice with them. [00:33:45] And I think By managing our context, uh, architecting our context with intentionality is the best way for us to learn. And this is all community is  [00:33:58] Sarah: about. [00:34:00] Yeah, so true. And it reminds me of what's on the on the invitation page for the humane marketing circle. I think I said something like, you know, we we talk about and figure out what works for us in marketing, because there's so much content out there that tells you how you should be doing marketing. [00:34:21] Right. And so I feel like Yes, I could teach my way of marketing, which I do in the Marketing Like a Human program, but what I really want to offer is this space and place where we can talk about what works for us and then figure out, um, or, or, yeah, we share what works for each of us and then we can figure out, oh, That works for her. [00:34:46] Let me try that and see how that works for me. And since our values are aligned, our worldview is aligned, then there is a much higher chance that your idea will work for me because it's ethically aligned, right? [00:35:00] Rather than going, Oh yeah, but that doesn't really sound good. So, so it's, it's, yeah, it's exactly what you, you said. [00:35:07] I thought of another benefit that members often say is this idea of the the global community, right? So yes, we are aligned. Yes, we have the same values, the same worldview, and yet we come from different places. You were in Brazil. There's members from different countries in Europe. There's members from the U. [00:35:27] S. And so it brings us these different perspectives that really helps us also then look at things with a different eye and go on. That's how they do it. Or, you know, also different topics like it. In the circle, we, you know, me, we mainly talk about marketing and business, but you know, obviously politics comes up and, and, and I do talk about ethical behavior. [00:35:58] And, and so it's nice to have [00:36:00] different opinions and different things that people, uh, bring in because we are a global community and, and yet we're all part of this shared humanity. So I feel like the global aspect and learning from each other. In this way is so enriching compared to let's say I do an online course at home and you know, I'm just in my office and I'm just learning by myself. [00:36:23] It's not the same, not the same thing, right? Um, the other thing that, um, you kind of touched upon because you mentioned Adam and Adam is one of our members and he's also one of the ambassadors. So that's another way that more experienced members is. Um, get kind of this, um, you know, value for them, but also value to the community because, uh, we have in, in the circle for example, we have three ambassadors who are then taking turns in, in hosting the calls. [00:36:58] And so that is, [00:37:00] For me, when I started that, I was like, this is exactly what I wanted. I don't want to be the only reference person in this community. A community is never ego driven or guru driven. It's, it is, you know, based on different people. And so it's just so amazing to see, you know, Adam, Rachel and Kelly bring in their perspectives and hosting their calls. [00:37:25] And, um, yeah, I'm just curious, uh, if you see that working in other communities as well, this ambassador model.  [00:37:35] Eddy: Yeah, so this is what we would call the badges. This is a very known feature for our communities. And a place that has been using, uh, very well all this knowledge about communities is the Web3 projects. [00:37:53] If you navigate a bit on these new projects about cryptocurrencies and everything, uh, they are [00:38:00] actually making a very good use of all these tools, creating very intentional groups on, on, on Discord, for instance. And in gaming people as well, they also make a very good use of these tools that can reinforce the strength of a community and the badges, for instance, we can we can have, um, when people they they have, they and something like normally mature communities, they will have few few circles that are inner circles and there are outer circles. [00:38:39] But the goal is not to get to the inner circle. Each circle has its own reason, and people can choose whether they want to be, you know, in the visitor space, or they want to be a resident, you know, or they want to be an ambassador. And I really think about [00:39:00] communities of people who live together, for instance. [00:39:04] You don't necessarily want to live there. You might just want to pass the day. Or you might want, or you might want to make a volunteering, um, or you might want to try to become a resident and then the, uh, the community might have a status for you while you understand the values and while, uh, you get to really understand if it resonates to you and the community, if you resonate to it. [00:39:31] Um. until a day you become a leader in the community as well. So I think this is all the, the badges, they are actually a way to symbolize and to represent what is already happening. It's the status that are already happening in the communities, in the circles. Uh, in the groups and we are just making it visible and making it [00:40:00] intentional. [00:40:00] Uh, here are the types of presence that you can have in this place. And this one means this and that one means that, you know, these are the responsibilities of this one and that one. Um, what do you want to, to, to be, you know, how do you want to be part of it? And if you, if you want to be, uh, in. Ambassador, it might have a way until you get there because the ambassadors are mainly, are maybe people who already understand, uh, very well, the, the core values of the business and et cetera. [00:40:36] So, uh, right. So the badges. Uh, really this thing about seeing what are the roles that, that we have in the community and it is not about creating it, like designing all the thing. Okay. We'll have these and that, and that badge, it is to create as, as it comes actually, uh, to, well, there is a, [00:41:00] there is a, uh, a person, the community is growing. [00:41:03] We had just one. one layer in the beginning. Normally, the communities, they start having one layer, which is, are you a part of it or you are not? Uh, the only day later, and then the community starts to get bigger and bigger, let's say, and then you start to see that you are not managing by yourself. And then you see that there are two members who are very participative and they want to take on more responsibility. [00:41:31] They love being part of that. They want to offer more. And then you create a badge for them to say, Hey, you are an ambassador now, and they will love to be recognized by the, by the effort that they make, um, people will also understand what is the difference they will understand. Okay, these people, they. [00:41:52] You know, uh, they are here for a longer period. They understand better. They can help me if I need help. Uh, I can count [00:42:00] on them. Uh, that's why he or she is leading this session, you know? So I really think it is all about making clear and pointing out what will naturally happen inside the group of people. [00:42:15] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. And by saying that naturally happened, I think it really comes to this patience and slow growth. It is, unless, you know, you have a big brand in, in, in, in your, your community is around, uh, an existing kind of, um, maybe the audience that turns into a community, but otherwise, if you're, you know, starting out with a handful of people, it will go through these stages of growth and it's normal that, you know, first, um, yeah, you, you really have to kind of, I think the biggest thing is you have to. [00:42:55] Let go of, um, at least at the [00:43:00] stage where the ambassadors come in, it really, it's growing, um, into something that is Beyond you as a person, right before maybe you're the only one kind of hosting it and managing it. But once the ambassadors come in, and then you have a community facilitator. Now it's bigger than you. [00:43:21] It's not your community anymore. It's the community. And that's why these roles then just naturally evolve and happen because The feedback comes from the community. It's not you. So more, so much designing it anymore. And, and, and that's what's beautiful. But again, in a business context, I would say that it takes some learning. [00:43:45] I, I know that it did for me. It takes some learning to look at it in a different way. To look at, uh, the, as a community, not as a. Business project so much, but more as this natural thing that has [00:44:00] its own it is its own entity and it will grow if you give it the space to grow and the time as well, so I feel like we're. [00:44:12] Kind of coming to to the end. But I want to ask you if we forgot anything that you absolutely wanted to to mention. What would what would you say for closing words about communities?  [00:44:29] Eddy: Yeah, uh, yeah, I'll just say a word about what you're saying. That is, uh, I love to say the phrase that my role has been fulfilled. [00:44:40] If people, they come in, they come in the end and they say, Oh, we have done it by ourselves. Uh, it is a bit ungrateful, but you know, it is the way it should be, you know. I shouldn't be expecting to be the center of the attention. If my, my intention is really that [00:45:00] people learn the best they can, they get the best they can. [00:45:03] Um, if they think they have done everything by themselves, they don't even realize what I have, uh, acted in the place for that to happen. Um, well, this is the ideal actually, you know? So I think it is really about that, about, uh, this creating this space. for, for everyone to learn together and to build friendships that leads to business as well. [00:45:29] We are, we have been saying over and over, it is not about business and not about making money, but this is actually, it is exactly, but it is another way of making money. It is about making money as we, uh, fulfill our purpose. And the more we fulfill our purpose, more we make money. I think this is the thing, right? [00:45:55] Yeah. Um, and I think the le I just want to mention a, a last thing and [00:46:00] then say, uh, a phrase to sum it up. Um, you, you talked about the importance of diversity as well, and. It is very important to point out that, uh, it's very easy to resonate on values. Like, we all value respect, we all, we all value silence, we all value this and that, uh, uh, collaboration. [00:46:25] But the way that we, uh, actually understand respect or silence or collaboration or love are very different from culture to culture, from family to family, from person to person. And this will lead also to conflicts. And this is part of community. This is very important. If your community never has any conflict, then you have a pseudo community. [00:46:54] It is something that you are calling a community, but it doesn't, it didn't test yet [00:47:00] the reality, you know? And the reality is such that we have different understanding of our same values. We all value the same thing, but we think this is something different. Uh, you think something different. And testing this and bringing it to, to, um, you know, building it together. [00:47:19] Okay. How might we understand in the practice, what respect means and how we, how might we value that as a community, uh, testing this reality through conflict is very important. So, uh, this is part of community and I just wanted to point it out.  [00:47:41] Sarah: And it's part of our role to hold the space for that. To be able to hold the space. [00:47:46] To welcome. Yeah. To welcome. To welcome it. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And that obviously means that we are continuously doing our inner work so that we can show up as these grounded people who are able [00:48:00] to hold the space and don't. React and you know, go immediately into reaction. Um, so yeah, it's a it comes with with, uh, I would say great responsibility as well to to be facility community facility facilitators because it's more than just an online thing, right? [00:48:21] These are real human. connections that are happening with, with all the baggage that we come with, uh, as well. So, yeah, thank you.  [00:48:34] Eddy: There is a book for those who want to read more about that, uh, from Scott Peck, a different drum, it is called, and he says there are four stages of community, pseudo community. [00:48:47] And then it goes to the conflict where we start to realize that we have different, uh, understandings of our values and it gets so big that we cannot, uh, keep to ourselves anymore. And then [00:49:00] it leads to emptiness where most of the people, they go away, they leave. Um, and then it can come to community. So we have to cross all these stages to build a real community. [00:49:12] How much time it takes? It depends if it is a retreat of one week, uh, one evening together, or one year program. It will take a different time. But the idea... The idea is to pass through the stages. And of course, when you get to community, then you are going to sell the community again, right? Hopefully. [00:49:35] Sarah: What's the name of the author? Say that again. Scott.  [00:49:38] Eddy: Scott Beck.  [00:49:39] Sarah: Beck. Okay. Well, make sure to add in the show  [00:49:43] Eddy: notes too. Yeah, sure. And then I just want to say a phrase and also mention another author that I really like. Um, so. The phrase, the phrase is that You are starting to have a community [00:50:00] when you have at least two people begin beginning to feel concerned for each other's welfare. [00:50:06] And the true measure of of a community success is not the size of its membership, but the depth. of the relationships and the strength of the shared purpose. So this is the perspective we are looking at. And I want to mention the author Charles Vogel, who have a book written, The Art of Community, where he gives principles and, you know, some, some steps and how you can build. [00:50:38] Uh, a community. And I also want to say that, uh, whoever is listening to this, uh, podcast, and if you are looking to, for learning more about community on, or how to establish a community, how to get more intentional with the community you already have, uh, feel free to, to look for [00:51:00] me. I'll be very happy to help you. [00:51:02] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. I was going to get to that. So thanks so much for, for sharing, uh, everything we'll make sure to, to link to, to the two authors you mentioned. Um, yeah, please do not actually, before I ask you to share where people can find you. One more thing that I thought of in terms of diversity is the age, because I remember a kind of a friend or a mentor that I like in the marketing space, Mark Schaeffer, who also wrote a book about communities. [00:51:40] What is it called? It's called, uh, belonging to the brand, why community is the next big thing. Um, and so he, I think in the book said, or maybe it was when he was on my podcast, he said, in terms of the community facilitator, look for the youngest person out there. [00:52:00] And so I, I really feel like that's what I did. [00:52:03] Uh, you know, you're the wisest, youngest person I've met. And, and so I'm just really, yeah, happy to, to have you in the community and you bring this new perspective that I'm so interested in as well. For, uh, for, you know, the different business paradigm, the way we look at our relationship to work. So you, you bring all that as well. [00:52:27] Um, and I think the age diversity is equally important. I mean that for, you know, older people, um, But also for younger people, it's nice to have someone from a more experienced generation and bring that perspective in. So I think that's another thing that we can pay attention to when building these attentional communities. [00:52:51] Um, so yeah, please do share where people can find you. Um, is it Fiverr or do you have another place that's better? [00:53:00]  [00:53:00] Eddy: No, well, I think that my main, the main ways to reach me is LinkedIn. Uh, Instagram, WhatsApp, and I also have a blog, but it is completely in Portuguese for now in medium. So I would say Instagram, WhatsApp, and LinkedIn are the best ways. [00:53:20] Sarah: So we'll link to that in the show notes.  [00:53:23] Eddy: And yeah, just to, uh, I, I, I felt about, I feel about mentioning another, another author who is, uh, Jeff Walker. Do you know Jeff Walker? It is like a big name on marketing on launching, right? He has the book, The Launching Formula. In his book, the Launching Formula, he talks about being rich without money, which is tapping into the, the people results, right? [00:53:53] Right. So his energy is not into building financial [00:54:00] richness, but into building a strong, uh, relationship to people. Because then when he needs something, he knows he can rely on these people who already, who know him. who know what he does and et cetera. So when, even when we are talking about more, um, common marketing strategies, let's say even then, even there, uh, people are already talking about community and how we can shift from the perspective, uh, and how we can understand that. [00:54:32] richness is not necessarily the money in your account. Uh, and it is very related to the relations that you have to people and the connections, the strength of the connections and the shared purpose that you have, uh, with the people around you. Oh,  [00:54:48] Sarah: true. Yeah. I always have one last question that I ask every guest and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:54:59] Eddy: I'm very, [00:55:00] very grateful for this conversation because it, it, it brings every, it, it gets everything so alive inside me, you know, it, it's something that, uh, that I love to talk about. I'm really passionate about this subject and about the work that I do with this as well. So in this very moment, I feel very grateful for having this, uh, this talk with you. [00:55:26] Sarah: I'm grateful also that we're collaborating on this. So thanks, Eddie.  [00:55:32] Eddy: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. [00:55:38] Sarah: I hope you got some great value and inspiration from listening to this episode. The best way to get more of Eddie is by joining our Humane Marketing Circle because he's there on every call. He's leading our net weaving calls and he's also facilitating our online community on Kajabi. So... Find out more [00:56:00] about the circle at humane. [00:56:02] marketing forward slash circle. If you'd like to get in touch with Eddie for your own community, you'll find him on Instagram or LinkedIn. And the links are on the show notes page. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash. H M 1 7 1. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. [00:56:36] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Transcription by CastingWords[00:57:00] 
57:43 8/25/23
Website for Coaches
In today's episode, we sat down with James, a Freelance Web and Graphic Designer based in Bedford, Bedfordshire, who brings a wealth of experience in creating websites for Coaches. During our chat, we covered a lot of useful topics that can really help you level up your coaching website. We started by demystifying the differences between graphic and web design. Then, we dug into how to make sure your website truly reflects your coaching services and personal brand. James shared some great tips on planning out your website content effectively, and how to present your services in a way that resonates with your potential clients. We also explored how your website can connect better with your ideal client and the strategies you can use to keep them engaged and interested. Ever wondered whether you can change your website once it's up? We talked about that too. Plus, James shed some light on the ongoing maintenance that websites might need, and what to look for when choosing a website host. Whether you're a seasoned coach or just starting, this episode has something for you. In this episode James and I discuss about: The difference between a graphic and web designer How a website represents your personal brand How to plan out my website content How to position my services on my site What strategies can I use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries? Is a website a static thing or can it be changed once I get it back from the designer and much more Ep 170 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. [00:02:29] Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Promotion. If you're a regular listener, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about with these seven P's and the mandala, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. [00:02:58] marketing [00:03:00] forward slash one. page, the number one and the word page. And, uh, humane is with an E. So not human, but humane with an E at the end dot marketing. It comes with the seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So humane marketing is not prescriptive. [00:03:21] It's not a six. step approach. It's a reflective approach. It's, uh, where I ask you to question all your assumptions that you have about marketing. So that's what you get with the one page marketing plan for the seven piece of humane marketing. Today I'm speaking with a new friend, James Mall, who's a web and graphic designer. [00:03:44] Uh, but before introducing you to James, I want to remind you that I'm talking to potential participants for the Marketing Like We're Human program, also known as the Client Resonator. This three month program is my main offering and it's connected [00:04:00] to this podcast and based on the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala because we'll dive deeply into these seven Ps during the program to help you discover your true self and passions so you can bring more of your. [00:04:16] into your marketing. It's really about marketing from within, marketing authentically. It's also much more than marketing. It's really about business building. And I do bring in kind of this different. business paradigm. While the main goal is to connect with your ideal clients, it goes beyond marketing. It forms the foundation of your life's work. [00:04:41] We'll start by focusing on things like passion and personal power, your why, and then move to other aspects like people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnerships. The program is in a small group setting, ensuring therefore a meaningful experience that aligns your business with your values. [00:05:00] It's a mix of videos, 20 to 30 minutes, uh, video per week. [00:05:05] Uh, beautifully designed workbook with lots of questions. My program is for deep thinkers, those who want to really roll back the sleeves and think deeply about, um, how they want to market, how they want to run their business, journal prompts. And then of course the live group calls in which I facilitate the conversation to take us even deeper into the topic of the week, who's this program for? [00:05:32] It's for entrepreneurs. Uh, who are quietly rebellious as well as change makers who have different levels of business experience, whether you've been in the game for one year, five years, or even 10 or more, it really is never too late to build a strong foundation for your business and your life's work. [00:05:52] So. If you want to know more, check out humane. marketing forward slash program for lots [00:06:00] of testimonials and case studies from past participants. And if this program feels like it might be the right fit for you right now, let's talk. There's a button on that page to schedule a call with me. So, uh, yeah, please do that. [00:06:15] We're starting on August 24th. All right. Thank you so much for letting me share about this. Now let's go back to today's podcast and back to James. So James is a freelance web and graphic designer based in Bedford. Bedford Shire, uh, that's the UK. And having worked with a variety, variety of clients, his portfolio includes fashion, swimwear, academics, coaches, property, charities, and photographers. [00:06:47] He now specializes in building websites for business coaches, and he loves and believes in helping coaches to build a better web. experience for their clients and themselves. In our [00:07:00] conversation, we talked about the difference between a graphic and web designer. I think that's really key for, uh, clients to understand. [00:07:09] How a website represents your personal brand, how to plan out. Your website content, how to position your services on your site, what strategies you can use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries, uh, whether a website is static or whether it can be changed once you get it back from the designer and so many more topics. [00:07:34] So let's dive in with, uh, James Moll. Hi, James. I'm so happy to hang out with you. Welcome to [00:07:42] James: the show. Hi, Sarah. Thanks very much for having me. Thank you. [00:07:47] Sarah: Yeah, I'm delighted to have this conversation about websites. So let's see all the different topics we could get into. Um, we tried to beforehand, right? [00:07:57] Come up with some, some questions. [00:08:00] And so I do want to ask you one that you're like, Hey, maybe not this one, but I'm like, well, I'm going to ask you anyway, because, because actually, you know, in the bio that I just read about you, um, I did say you're a, uh, uh, web and graphic designer, right? So website designer, graphic designer. [00:08:19] And, and I know that quite a lot of people sometimes get confused. Well, what is what, who does what? And so I'd like to start us off there so that you can kind of give us a good Um, distinction between what does a graphic designer do and what does a web designer do? And if I need a website, who do I look for [00:08:44] James: then? [00:08:45] Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, it's actually quite a good question, I think, for people that are not aware, obviously, the difference between a web and a graphic designer. Being in the industry, um, a lot of people are aware. So, so a graphic designer is someone [00:09:00] that designs, uh, graphics. It could either be print based or digital based. [00:09:04] So it can either be. Uh, brochures, leaflets, um, billboards, um, and they could do digital design as well. So they could design adverts on social media. Um, there is crossover between that and websites. So they can design graphics that specifically go on websites as well. So they can sit on a, on a, um, a website, but how they differ from a web designer is that they're not techie. [00:09:29] So they're not able to, most graphic designers are not able to develop, uh, and build websites. So web designer is. actually more technical in terms of they're able to either code, uh, build a website with code, HTML, um, WordPress, um, software like that, or they can, uh, use no code software as well, which I, I worked with as well. [00:09:52] So I worked with a program called elemental along with WordPress. So I'm able to kind of use drag and drop software. Um, some like I've come, I'm [00:10:00] coming from a graphic design background to a website background. So there is some crossover, um, but generally. Graphic designers tend to design, um, the graphics either for print or digital. [00:10:13] Um, and they don't really tend to do websites. So they differ in that instance. I hope that kind of clears [00:10:20] Sarah: up things. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess. A graphic designer can learn to be a web designer and then be both, which is your case. And a web designer can also, or that's a question, do web designers sometimes also go into graphic design? [00:10:40] Or maybe that direction is less common. What would you say? [00:10:45] James: Um, I've actually met quite a few people that have gone both. So from like myself on graphic design into website design, and then vice versa, website design to graphic design. And I think it just [00:11:00] matters on your technical ability and what you enjoy. [00:11:04] If you enjoy graphic design, if you enjoy sort of creating. You know, anything from logos to branding, you know, brochures, um, graphic design is so wide as well. Um, and then it easily crosses over onto, um, website design. Um, it's kind of similar to coaching in a way, I guess, because a lot of sort of business coaches, for example, that I work with tend to do, you know, personal coaching as well, life coaching, um, and vice versa. [00:11:36] So there's some crossover there as well. So, um. Yeah, they can be cross over as well. [00:11:41] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. In my, um, sense of understanding this is the graphic design has to do with the beauty. It has to do with the aesthetics, with the art, with the colors, with the logo, uh, you know, with the, yeah, the word says it graphic, right? [00:11:58] And so [00:12:00] the web designer would be probably more, um, oriented towards the functionality of the site. Uh, of the website. So being like, you know, all of these click funnels and lead generation things that, that is more tech related. So, uh, in a way, I guess it's a good idea to look for someone who has an understanding of both. [00:12:24] Because then you get an aesthetically good looking website that also has the functionality behind [00:12:30] James: it. Right. Yeah, that's right. And that's why people like to hire me. Yeah. Because, uh, yeah, because I'm able to do, to do both. And, um, you know, from a UX and UI point of view, I'm able to kind of wireframe, uh, create like a blueprint and a map of, uh, the user experience as well, which is quite key. [00:12:51] I think a lot of web designers. Don't tend to think of that as well. Um, so it's not just making sure the website looks pretty, but also the [00:13:00] fact that you're thinking about calls to action, you know, your call to action buttons, getting people to book discovery calls or sign up to your mailing list. Or, [00:13:09] Sarah: yeah, so let's get in all of that because there's a lot to, to uncover. [00:13:13] So, so basically, yeah, we now know that there's both, right. There's the aesthetics and then there's the actual user friendliness and the. The functionality behind the site. So, so maybe before we go into the functionality, like what I, this is embarrassing, but like more than 15 years ago when I started out, I actually also designed some small websites for, for clients, you know, WordPress was like really new back then. [00:13:43] And so I quickly noticed how difficult of a job it actually is. Not so much big because of, you know, I was using WordPress. So it's pretty simple to put a website together, but where I always got stuck is with the [00:14:00] clients and their content, like the, the, the design of the site and their actual understanding of what needs to go on a site. [00:14:09] So I think that's also why there's. A lot of people, I don't know if that happens to you, but I know it happens to me that come with baggage and they complain about their website designer. They're like, it just didn't work out. Uh, and oftentimes it's because there is a miscommunication of who does what and in what kind of timeframe. [00:14:31] And so how can we help or, or, uh, to which level do we as the client have to be prepared? Uh, when we go to a website designer in terms of our content, in terms of knowing what needs to go on this website. [00:14:50] James: Yeah, so the content is, um, is a key thing in any website. And before, when I kind of started out, I used to kind of [00:15:00] rely on the client giving me the content and it doesn't always work out because what you've, you know, you designed a website and you put everything together and you made it look nice and you've put stock images there and you've put some. [00:15:12] Laura Ibsen text to kind of fill the gaps and you create a nice looking website and then the client either They do two things that either hand you Very little content. So there's hardly any text or any writing that they've put together themselves Or they can either give you too much Content so there's a lot to kind of pick pick out and put on the website And the information is is key because the information is what's gonna Sell your services. [00:15:40] So it's it's one of the most important things On a website and before when I started out, I used to always think about the design side and coming from a graphic design point of view as well. I used to always think about looking at making the website look pretty and probably less on the content, but as I've developed as a web designer and working with with coaches. [00:15:57] Now, I realized that, you know, [00:16:00] part of what we do is working with the coaches and having copywriters on board to help them create. Copy that is great to go on the website. Um, and that, you know, it's talking about their target clients, um, addresses, um, their pain points, um, and sells their services in a way that, um, reflects them, uh, in a, in a positive light, really. [00:16:25] Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:26] Sarah: Yeah. So, so you see the same thing is like, it can really be a, this idea. Oh, I need a website. But then once they talk to you or talk to any website designer, then they tell them, well, have you thought about, you know, who's your ideal client? How are you going to describe it? So it's like, it's this basically box of worms that all of a sudden gets. [00:16:52] you know, discover is like, Oh, I thought that was going to be quick and easy. And then I have, you know, all these other things that I now [00:17:00] need to look at and write about. [00:17:01] James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the planning stages is key with any website. Um, you know, sometimes clients will come to you and I used to have this a lot when I was starting out, you know, they'll say we need a website done in a week or two weeks or, you know, unrealistic deadlines and they're kind of rushing and they've got. [00:17:19] content ready and they're trying to create a website and they think that, you know, you can very easily create a website, you know, in a matter of a few days or a week and you can, but you know, it's like with anything, it's good to sit down and plan out, you know, the user experience, uh, wireframe and on paper, just, just even sketch out what, what kind of number of pages, the menu structure, uh, the calls to action, uh, what kind of information you're going to have, testimonials, um, All of that kind of stuff, social proof, um, and then layout, what kind of, what goes where, and think about that and spend time thinking about that [00:18:00] before you've done any kind of development or design. [00:18:03] That is a, is a must, I think now working with clients because we spend, we spend a good couple of weeks actually just, just on that. Um, when I work with clients now, uh, before we do any development work. [00:18:16] Sarah: Right. So take us into this user experience because you mentioned it a few times now. So, so what does that mean? [00:18:24] Take me on this journey. So let's say, you know, I'm landing on a website for the first time. Uh, I'm on the homepage. What needs to happen next? So take me through that journey. [00:18:39] James: Yeah, so when you're, when you've landed on a, um, homepage, for example, which is a, um, land, another word for landing page as well. So a landing page could be any page really on the website. [00:18:49] It's the first page that you're directed to. And often that is the homepage. But often you'll see a homepage and you'll see, you know, you've got the menu at the top. You've got your, um. [00:19:00] Items below it. So you would have like a hero image and you would have welcome to the website or whatever the company or person does on the website. [00:19:09] And then you'd have, you know, testimonials below it and you would have services, uh, what the coach does, for example, calls to action. Um, but it's. really mapping out clearly what goes where in terms of the information. So you want to be, for example, you don't want to be telling people about you necessarily what you do and how great you are. [00:19:33] You want to be talking about how you're helping them with their, with their problem, this problem solution. And you'll, you know, you, you've got a list of. your ideal client, you know, what kind of issues they're going through. Uh, for example, if they've, um, if you're in a corporate kind of coach, um, that's helping people that are coming out of corporate, the corporate environment, you want to say that, you know, uh, here's a, [00:20:00] this is what I do. [00:20:01] You know, are you coming out of a corporate job? Are you looking to start your own business getting into coaching, for example, and As soon as they see that at the top, you know, they know that this site is for them because people would immediately turn off in the first, you know, couple of three to five seconds. [00:20:18] If they don't see any benefit in, in, um, in the website and they'll just click, click off. So you have a high bounce rate as well. [00:20:27] Sarah: Yeah. It's actually in what we're just talking about this today in the humane marketing circle is the unique value proposition. You know, what it is you are offering To me, as the visitor to your website, how is it different from anybody else's offer? [00:20:44] And, uh, yeah, do I feel concerned? Like, yeah, do you speak to me or, you know? Yeah. Instead, do you just speak about yourself? And then I have to figure out if you're actually the right [00:21:00] fit for me. Um, [00:21:01] James: yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people make that mistake because. They want to say, you know, how great they are, you know, how many qualifications they've got, certifications, um, testimonials. [00:21:12] They want to, you know, literally tell the whole world about how great they are, but they forget about the client that they kind of helping. And what their problems are and really speaking to the client, you know, everything that you should be doing should be speaking towards your ideal client. And again, that's tied into the marketing side of things that you're aware of. [00:21:33] And a lot of web designers or graphic designers don't tend to think about that because it's a shame because a lot of web design and graphic design is quite separate from marketing. So coming from a background of both, I'm able to kind of use have both sides and think. You know, from a customer user point of view and think from a technical point of view, uh, and also from a design and colorful and making [00:22:00] everything look pretty kind of point of view as well. [00:22:02] So that it's a problem that I think we have in the industry where. In the whole kind of design industry where there's a miscommunication often between the marketing message and what you're trying to portray on an advertisement or a website. Um, there could be a misalignment there. Yeah. [00:22:24] Sarah: Yeah, I totally agree. [00:22:25] I think that the, you know, it's often a case in corporations as well, where they separate marketing from sales and, and here it's the same marketing should be part of it because that's essentially what you're doing with your website. You're not wanting to talk to yourself. You're wanting to talk to your ideal clients and everything you just said about the homepage. [00:22:48] I learned it's the same thing about on your about page, uh, on your about page, of course we think, Oh, it's about me. And yes, it is, but only in a second instance, it really [00:23:00] is again. Uh, people come to your about page because they want to find out if you're a good match for them. So they're really looking at the about page as a mirror much more than, you know, I'm so interested in this person that they don't know yet. [00:23:15] Right. And so it's kind of like just more like a checklist. Okay. Yes. This aligns this lines. Uh, and so it's the same thing for the about page. Um, so talk to us a bit more about the, uh, engagement. So. You know, it could be perceived that a website is a static thing because, you know, it just sits there. So how do we make it engaging, um, that actually people stay on it, first of all, you know, read our information and then maybe even go a step further. [00:23:50] How do we get them to stay in touch? [00:23:53] James: Yeah, I mean, One of the key things is not to put all of the [00:24:00] information out there in terms of content. So if you want to create engagement, for example, um, FAQs are a good example of this. So you don't want to frequently ask questions that you have. You don't want to sort of list them all out on the website. [00:24:14] You want to have options where people can click on a, on a question and they have a drop down and it tells them a little bit more about it. So anything that kind of people can interact with and engage with buttons that lead them on to another page, for example, that tells them a little bit more information. [00:24:31] So if you've got like a book, for example, that you're selling and you said, you know, do you want to buy this book right now? And then you clicked on the book and it just went to the purchase page. And it was just like. selling you the book, you know, from a buying point of view, it's not a great sales experience because you're not really giving them any more information about the book that they're buying. [00:24:51] So you want to create, um, almost like a sales funnel where you're, they click on, uh, to find out more about the book that you're selling, for example, [00:25:00] uh, how it can benefit them. Um, maybe give them like a free sample or demo, uh, That they can download like a PDF and then an option afterwards to then click and purchase. [00:25:14] So it's very much thinking about that user again, thinking about the user journey and experience rather than, you know, people are so desperate to kind of, you know, sell stuff, for example, or book a discovery call. And it's very much that you've got to kind of educate people. You've got to create that. Um, That trust, you've got to build that up, I think. [00:25:33] And you can't just rush into it. It's, it's, it's again, it's like us talking for example, now, and if we were at like a networking event and we met for the first time, for example, when you often meet people at networking events and, you know, they're just telling you how great they are and they're just like, do you want to buy my stuff? [00:25:47] Do you want to have a, let's book a call. Let's let's talk by my stuff. It's all me, me, me. And they don't really kind of create that opportunity where they, you know, you, you kind of. Meet them or add them on online or, um, go [00:26:00] to the website, find out a little bit more about them. And then a little bit later on, in the, in the kind of buying decision, you kind of decide that you want to work with them, um, rather than sort of rushing in. [00:26:13] It's kind of people kind of rush in. Um, [00:26:15] Sarah: yeah. Tell us how this would apply to the discovery call, because I like that a lot. So, so, um, and, and I'll share what I have in place, but yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Like, Okay. So I get it for the book. Yeah. How would you apply it to a discovery call? [00:26:34] James: So for a discovery call, for instance, you will, um, you've also got call to action on the site. [00:26:40] So I've got call to action. If people do want to book a discovery call straight away and they can click, you know, book a discovery call. So that's for people that have already made their decision. Um, so they've looked at your website, they've seen your homepage senior about page. Um, What you offer us is, you know, problem solution. [00:26:58] You can [00:27:00] help them with their, um, what their, whatever their problems are, issues are, and they've already made the decision to work with you. And they, you know, just click book a discovery call. So they're those kind of people are, um, sort of warm leads and they kind of, they're in that sort of. Uh, they want to buy from you and they want to buy what you're, what you, what you've got, but people that are, um, maybe need to be a bit more educated, for example, um, you'd kind of maybe I've got a few landing pages, for example, um, I've created for coaches where they could find out a bit more about me. [00:27:36] Uh, about what I do, the kind of clients that I work with. So it's kind of testimonials, social proof, um, talking through people, through, through the discovery process that I go through with clients. Um, and then they can, from there, they can decide to book a call at the end. So they can scroll right down to the bottom and then they can decide to book a call. [00:27:59] So those kinds of [00:28:00] people need, um, probably a bit more. educating and kind of getting to know you. Um, it just depends. I think if people are coming from online and if they've never met you before, then they're going to need a bit to know a bit more about you and probably add you on social media as well. [00:28:13] Follow you on, on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, um, for, you know, at least a couple of months or, or, or whatever time period. And before they start working with you, uh, people that you've already met from online or networking or face to face networking, and they kind of know you and aware. The problems and solutions that you kind of solve. [00:28:36] Um, they're a little bit of more of a warmer lead. So they, they can, they just want to book a discovery call and they just want to talk to you. Right. Yeah. [00:28:44] Sarah: I would say the quality then also of this discovery, discovery call is, is very different. Um, if Someone comes to your site for the very first time and then just books a discovery call to me, those are often the clients [00:29:00] who just want to discover about, you know, website design. [00:29:04] Uh, so it's not like they are necessarily already. Um, on the gentle sales paths, like I call it that, that they don't know about you. They're not buying into you yet. They're just buying, they just need a website. Right. And it's like, Oh, this is one of them. Okay. Let me book a call. And then you're basically spending your whole time on this call, educating them, uh, instead of actually them, them educating themselves on their own time. [00:29:33] That's how I look at it. I'm like, well, I have all these things on my website. Spend some time there, you know, listen to the podcast, read the books, whatever, you know. There's a lot of information there. And then let's get on a call because otherwise, what often happens is we can spend our days on these discovery calls and then kind of end up being frustrated because, you know, people are just not there yet in [00:30:00] terms of where they are in their, um, sales decision. [00:30:04] Uh, and so that's, that's why often people who come to me and say, you know, I'm not closing. I'm like, well, you know, what do you have on your, I call them signposts. What do you have on your gentle sales path? Like your, um, like your templates that you're going to share with us for the landing page, right? [00:30:23] It's education like that, that then also leads to a better quality, uh, sales call. So, so yeah, I totally see that. Um, I also have an intake form. Where I didn't actually ask, you know, have you read, uh, my blog posts? Have you listened to the, so that I also come to this conversation knowing where they're at, because there's nothing worse than to be on a sales call and feel like being sold to, and, you know, and then. [00:30:52] After I do all this talking, they're like, actually, you know, I just want to talk to you and see how we can get started. [00:31:00] And so it's really good to pick them up [00:31:01] James: where they're at, right? Yeah. And also you don't want to be in that position of convincing them kind of thing as well. I think in my earlier days, I would often have to convince clients because, um, before I kind of niche down and work with. [00:31:16] Coaches and consultants and mentors and, you know, speakers and authors. Um, I used to work with quite a large variety of clients and I didn't really niche down in anything, so I didn't specialize in anything. So, um, I was seen more as a commodity. So, um, you know, it was all about price and it was all very much, um. [00:31:38] Yeah, fix it on price. So I'm kind of like, I lost track of where we were. Right. Checking around. Where were we? Sorry. Yeah, [00:31:46] Sarah: it's so important. Um, yeah. Any, any other things about the, you know, engagement and, and how to get more inquiries? Cause I think that's something that, you know, people [00:32:00] are really. Yeah, wanting to know more about, like, which part is content related and which part then is, like, we didn't talk about newsletter signups, right? [00:32:11] What are some mistakes you, you see there that, um, on websites related to that? [00:32:18] James: Um, I think a lot of times I think people have a newsletter signup and they don't really know what it is or, um, they don't really have a newsletter in place. So I think one of the key things is to have a just a mailing list. [00:32:34] Or a newsletter in place and tell people like, I've got one that's coming soon at the moment. So I'm just taking emails at the moment. So I actually don't have a newsletter at the moment. But a lot of the times people are just having a newsletter for the sake of having a newsletter. And I think you could have some sort of strategy behind it and know, because it is another way of bringing in leads. [00:32:54] Um, but it's not going to be straight away. Like, it's not going to be a, like, So today, tomorrow or next [00:33:00] week, you know, you you're still educating people about what you do. And it's again, it's the same with a blog on your website, you know, people come back and they will read your blog newsletters. So people are aware of, you know, your services, what you're offering, and they can see you on social media as well. [00:33:19] And if they've signed up to your newsletter, for example, as well, they see you quite active. So the more you're kind of, they're aware of what you do and who you are as a person, um, they, they have you in mind. So even if it's not for them, um, they will have you in mind for someone else. So as long as you're like that person that they think of when they think about sort of, um, You know, humane marketing, for example, um, and, uh, me being a web design consultant, working with coaches, um, you know, want to be like the first person that they think of. [00:33:55] So you want to have that, the newsletters were part of that sort of, that sort of [00:34:00] marketing strategy. Um, I think people don't often look at that hand in hand, like together, they just sit kind of separate. Um, but Anything that you do, if it's even if it's, you know, social media posts, um, uh, newsletters or blogging, you should always have like an end goal when you should always think about it from what, you know, what benefit are you giving to your clients? [00:34:27] Um, and it shouldn't really be just, you know, bragging about how great you are again with the website. A lot of times, you know, people are bragging about what qualifications or what things they're getting up to and what they're doing. As opposed to, um, how they're benefiting their clients and what kind of problems they can solve them for their clients. [00:34:44] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So let's say, okay, we have designed this, this website, we have the content, uh, everything is in place. And then, I'm sure you're used to that, the client's like, Oh, I need to change, [00:35:00] you know, this copy again and, and, and this and that. When, when do you hand the site over and is there, you know, can we still change it? [00:35:11] I think that's probably a question that people wonder is like, okay, uh, I've heard of WordPress, uh, you know, how easy is it to then change the site [00:35:21] James: myself? Yeah, so it depends. I mean, if the client either wants content or design changes, um, I have a, um, maintenance, uh, package that I offer clients that for the upkeep of the site and, uh, updates as well. [00:35:41] Um, so that could be an ad hoc kind of basis, um, or, or they could, yeah, pay as and when they need it. Um, but ideally, um, I also do videos as well. So I do a video to show clients how to edit the [00:36:00] site themselves. So they've got like that on their dashboard, um, how to upload images and text and change all that stuff. [00:36:06] But it just depends on the client. If they're You know, it's like a lot of coaches are too busy, so they don't have time to update their site themselves. So they either fall into two categories, the one that, you know, they do have time and they would like to do it themselves, or they're too busy and they don't, they would like you to do it. [00:36:23] So it depends on, on the, on the, um. So basically [00:36:27] Sarah: it can be changed, it just needs time. Yeah, yeah. Or you can do it for them and, and well, it takes money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always that equation. [00:36:38] James: But it should always be changed. I mean, I would do recommend for, you know, keeping a site regularly up to date, um, helps with your SEO, um, search engine optimization. [00:36:48] Um, you know, Google likes it when you've got up to date blogs and content on there. So a lot of times people will design a website, have it designed, and they [00:37:00] will just get excited and launch the website and make a lot buzz around it. And then within a few months or a year down the line, they've done nothing with the website. [00:37:10] So they've not added to the website and there's nothing new on their website. So from a search point of view, it gets ranked lower. Um, so the more engagement you've got on site, the more, um, people that are clicking on the site. So you want to constantly be putting content on the site and advertising on social media, for example, and plugging the site as much as possible. [00:37:33] Um, but it should always be Up to date in terms of content as much as possible. Um, but yeah, again, it's an, it's an additional charge. So once the site has been done and handed over to you, it's, um, it's an additional charge, it's kind of like. Decorating, for example, if this room that we're in, for example, if, you know, it's painted white, but if you wanted to paint it, you know, yellow or whatever, you know, there'll be an additional charge to purchase paint and do repaint the [00:38:00] whole room. [00:38:00] And then again, you want to pay it like orange or something or purple in a year's time. It's again, it can be done, but it's an additional. It's going to cost more time and money to kind of do that. Yeah, of course. [00:38:12] Sarah: So you mentioned, um, maintenance to me, there's two different things. There's maintenance, uh, which is kind of like updating the plugins and making sure it's the last, uh, and most recent WordPress, uh, addition, things like that. [00:38:28] Um, Or, you know, even backups and then there's updates, which is content updates or even design updates. So they're separate things like so like how much maintenance so purely functionality oriented maintenance does a website take once it's. [00:38:51] James: Yeah. So once a website is published, um, no matter what kind of software you're using, I mean, I build websites using WordPress. [00:38:59] Um, [00:39:00] if you could be using Wix or, or another software, for example, um, but it may certainly needs to be maintained in terms of security, uh, any kind of bugs that can happen on a site. Um, so it needs to be all anything plugin related that you've got any software that you use to kind of build, for example, if you've got, um, Um, I'm trying to think now, uh, scheduling software, any kind of, uh, appointment booking software, any additional plugins that are required. [00:39:29] If you've got Google, for example, or you've got Google site kit on there, uh, you've got Yoast SEO, um, on there. So you've got all these kind of different plugins, um, on there. They need to be kind of up to date and maintained. Um, otherwise they can kind of break the site as well. So if you've, uh, not updated a site after a while, if it runs into any kind of conflicts with plugin, um, Um, different plugins. [00:39:51] It can actually break the whole site. Uh, so you've got that as one issue. And then also you've got potential any, any site is vulnerable, [00:40:00] uh, online is vulnerable to being hacked as well. So, uh, twice to me [00:40:04] Sarah: already. So yeah. Yeah. So it's not like this. Thing that never happens. It [00:40:07] James: doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. So again, um, software in terms of security wise, um, needs to be monitored, monitored. [00:40:15] Um, so there's all that kind of stuff to kind of think about. And that's the more kind of techie kind of stuff. And that's the stuff that A lot of people don't like to kind of think about, but it's very important because obviously in terms of the longevity of the site, it's not nice to have a site that's being, being hacked. [00:40:32] Um, you know, so, um, it's always good to kind of, it's almost like insurance is always good to kind of just pay the extra to, to, to, to have someone do it. Or at least invest the time, you know, you could watch YouTube videos and learn how to do it yourself. But again, it depends if you want to spend the hassle time kind of learning that as well. [00:40:53] But it's the, it's [00:40:55] Sarah: the hassle of learning it, but it's also then the hassle of finding somebody who's [00:41:00] gonna fix your hacked site, right? Yeah. Where if you have kind of put aside some, uh, some for maintenance. Then that person somehow becomes responsible as well of, uh, having to fix the site or at least you'll come up with a fair price where if you just come to a new person and say, Hey, please, can you fix my site? [00:41:23] It's been completely hacked. They're going to charge you quite a bit to do that. [00:41:29] James: Yeah, yeah. Again, obviously with the backups, um, you know, all our sites are backed up. Um, content and design is backed up regularly. So if there is a problem, we can get back to a backup. Um, uh, so it's quite easily, uh, again, a lot of people don't back up their site. [00:41:49] So a lot of people, um, Sort of presume that's really done. And I've seen it in the past with clients that come to me and they've had cheap hosting in the past where they said, you know, they can get hosting for [00:42:00] like, I don't know, like 499, 599 or 10 pound, 10 or whatever it is a month or whatever it is. [00:42:07] And they think they're really happy with the hosting, but then they don't realize the fact that there is no added security or backups in place. And when something does go wrong, they All their content, everything is lost on the site again as well. And if you've got no backup of that all, um, you've got, for example, your blogs, if they're written in sort of Word documents and you've got them stored on, on your computer, it's good, you know, that's another backup. [00:42:34] Um, but again, you've got to go for the hassle of. You know, republishing everything, republishing everything and that sort of thing. So it's very, that's a hassle as well, you know. [00:42:44] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. All right. We want to end in a positive note, not in a, Oh my God, it's so scary out there. Um, yeah, just like everything. [00:42:55] Yes, everything can happen. It's, it's online and, and, and there is. That, [00:43:00] um, kind of tech stuff that, that happens. So, um, but yeah, like I said, let's, let's not end in a, in a negative note. Um, do you have a template that, um, you're sharing with our listeners? So. Why don't you tell us a little bit of what that is and where people can find [00:43:19] James: it? [00:43:20] Yeah, sure. Um, so I'll provide a link. Um, it's called the two week landing page challenge for coaches. So it's, um, a lot of people, a lot of clients just come to me that used to have, you know, trouble creating a landing page. And, um, I realized that I didn't really have. You know, if it's stuck in my mind and I like kind of can do it, but I don't realize that all this information was out there. [00:43:44] So I put it create like a template for people to kind of for coaches to download and very easily kind of put together. So, um, I'll provide the link for that. But yeah, it's just anyone else kind of. in the coaching space that needs to create a landing page to [00:44:00] sell a book that they're providing or um, a call to action, um, book a discovery call or any kinds of call to actions that they really just want to that specific key rather than providing it on the entire website. [00:44:12] They just want to specifically one pager, one pager. So it's a template that people can freely download. Um, and again, if you did want to book a discovery call with me and if you needed any help, I'm available to, um, help you out with any questions as well. [00:44:27] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks. We'll make sure we, we link to that. [00:44:31] And, um, yeah, your website is also in the, in the, um, in the text, uh, jamesmall. co. uk. Right. Uh, where are you most hanging out? [00:44:42] James: Sorry. And it's forward slash coaches to go on the actual coaching landing page. [00:44:46] Sarah: Okay. Great. And you're mainly on which social media platforms? So I'm [00:44:52] James: quite active on LinkedIn. [00:44:53] LinkedIn is probably the most best place. It's the best place to kind of connect with me and find out more about me and um, [00:45:00] just DM me and I'm always happy to talk. So. [00:45:02] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:45:10] James: What am I grateful for today? Um, I suppose I'm grateful for feeling a lot better and being able to eat normal food again. [00:45:19] Uh, cause I've had a ongoing, I've had an ongoing chest infection for the last couple of months. So yeah, I did kind of stop working for a little while and I couldn't eat some foods. Um, so I'm, I'm glad that I got my energy back and, you know, I'm able to kind of, I'm out of breath and I'm able to enjoy food. [00:45:38] Um, [00:45:39] Sarah: which is a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't realize it until we don't have it anymore. [00:45:44] James: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm actually going to a Retreat this weekend, helping my friend up, um, we were talking about it earlier. Um, so I'm going to be helping them out in the kitchen and there's going to be yoga and meditation and sound therapy there. [00:45:58] So yeah, I'm grateful [00:46:00] for being able to kind of take part in that as well. So, um, delightful. So yeah, I'm grateful. [00:46:06] Sarah: Thank you. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks, James. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, especially if you're new to business and are needing to build your website. [00:46:26] You can find out more about James at jamesmall. co. uk. And as he mentioned, James also has a gift for us. It's a coach's landing page template, uh, which you can get at jamesmall. co. uk forward slash humane marketing. Uh, this is also a page where you'll find the two week challenge that, uh, James mentioned when he was speaking, James mainly hangs out on LinkedIn. [00:46:57] So make sure to send them a message [00:47:00] there, connect with him and tell him that you listened. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing. com You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing. [00:47:21] com 1 7 1, sorry, 1 7 0. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, uh, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. [00:47:51] We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00]
48:28 8/11/23
Limiting Beliefs and Pricing
In today’s episode, we delve into the vital “P of Pricing” as we sit down with Patty Block – a business advisor, pricing expert, author, and empowering speaker. In our conversation, we explore the intriguing relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing, the challenge of being affordable for everyone while avoiding burnout, and effective techniques to communicate the true value of our services before raising prices. We also dive into strategies for determining fair pricing, tackling the “Good Girl’s Dilemma,” and letting go of patterns that don’t serve us. Get ready to be inspired! In this episode Patty and I discuss about: The relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing The challenge of wanting to be affordable for everyone – and burning out while doing so Effective techniques to communicate our value and why we need to do that before raising our prices How to get started when you’re determining your prices and much more  Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today’s conscious customers because it’s humane, ethical, and non pushy.  I’m Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we’re human and selling like we’re human. If after listening to the show for a while, you’re ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn’t work in business.  Then we’d love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you’re picturing your  typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.  We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn’t work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.  Whether it’s for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I’d love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50… Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this  podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client.  You can find out more at And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane.  Hello, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I’m so delighted that you’re here. I’m back in Switzerland after three weeks of really, really hot weather in Sicily. And I’m recording this and it’s raining outside and there’s a thunderstorm. So it’s quite refreshing. I’m speaking today with Patti Block.  And before I tell you a bit more about Patti. I’d like to remind you that I’m currently talking to potential  participants of the Marketing Like We’re Human, also known as the Client Resonator Program. This is my flagship three month program, closely aligned with my podcast, and based on the same framework, the seven Ps of humane marketing.  The program involves a deep exploration of these seven P’s to help you uncover your true identity and passion and really enabling you to infuse more of you, more of your authentic self into your marketing. Essentially it’s about marketing from within. While the outcome is the resonance with your ideal clients, the program goes way beyond just marketing.  It serves as the foundation for your life’s work. We begin by focusing on the inner aspects, such as passion and personal power, and then move to the outer elements, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership with  others. The program takes place in an intimate group setting. Ensuring a deep and transformative experience, resulting then in the business that truly aligns with your values.  The program is a hybrid model, so consisting of 20 to 30 minute video to watch each week. Uh, these are based on my teachings, but also on my own experience that I share with vulnerability. Cause I feel like if I show up with vulnerability, then that’s kind of sets the stage for our group conversations.  And that’s why these group conversations are so in depth and, uh, vulnerable and transformative. So who’s the program for? It’s for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs with varying levels of business experience. So whether you have one year, five years or. Even 10 years under your belt, it’s never too late to create a solid foundation for your business  and more importantly, to create your life’s work.  So by doing so, you’ll be able to market authentically as the person you truly are. If you’re interested in learning more or have already visited the page, but need to go back, I invite you to go to humane. marketing forward slash program, where you’ll find different testimonials and detailed case studies from past participants.  If you think that this program might be your right next step and a good fit for you and your business, let’s talk. You can book a call with me by going to humane. marketing forward slash program and there you’ll find a button to book a call or you can send me an email if you’re on my email list. Also, what I forgot to mention until July 31st, I have an early bird.  Discount of 200 off. So please do mention that to me. And I will of course, apply it as long as you book our  call before July 31st. It’s okay if we speak after, but at least have it booked before July 31st and mentioned the discount code. There’s no code just mentioned the early bird. Thank you so much.  Okay. Back to the P of pricing and today’s episode, Patty Block is a business advisor, pricing expert, author, and speaker. She works exclusively with women business owner experts to strategically fine tune their operations, attract right fit clients, and boost their revenue. She firmly believes business success and wealth in the hands of women elevates society as a whole.  And I agree, but not just women. There’s There’s good guys out there as well in her book, your hidden advantage, unlock the power to attract the right fit clients and boost your revenue. Patty reveals a new perspective and proven practical solutions, guiding women to  unleash their. Inner power to run their business with more confidence, profit, and joy.  In this episode with Patty, we discussed the relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing. You’re going to have to listen to find out about the broken cookies, the challenge of wanting to be affordable for everyone and burning out while doing so. Effective techniques to communicate our value and why we need to do that before raising our prices.  How to get started when you’re determining your prices and so much more. So let’s listen to this conversation about pricing with Patti Block. Hi, Patti. I’m so looking forward to our conversation today about pricing. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Show.  Patty: Thank you. And thank you for inviting me.  Sarah: Yeah, I’m so delighted.  I’m, I want to give a shout out to Sophie Leshner, who’s, uh, introduced us and, and  I couldn’t be more happy with, um, you know, having this introduction because I have to admit, like in terms of pricing, um, especially aligned with our values and humane marketing, it’s not always. Easy to find the right experts, but when I came across your work, I’m like, oh, yes, definitely very much aligned.  So, um, yeah, super delighted to have you here. I think I want to start off with, uh, one of the stories you tell on your website. And I think I heard you talk about it on another podcast as well. And it has to do with cookies. So it’s not the cookie cutter, uh, story, uh, you know, the cookie cutter recipes that we talk about a lot in the humane marketing and I like follow everybody else’s recipe for success, but it also has to do with cookies.  So why don’t you start us off there, Patty?  Patty: Sir,  when I was growing up, my mom made these fabulous cookies. The whole house smelled good, it was warm, the cookies were gooey, and all my life I watched my mom eat the broken cookies. But it wasn’t until I was a teenager that I even thought to ask her, why do you only eat the broken cookies?  Do they taste better? And she laughed and said no I eat the broken cookies so you can have the whole ones And that memory came rushing back to me several years ago when I was struggling to put words Around a really pervasive pattern that I had seen in the decades that i’ve worked with women business owners that That’s what we’re doing as women and that image of my mom eating the broken cookies popped in my head I realized that we are Watching our role models are moms and our grandmothers and they brought that spirit of self sacrifice to everything they did  so we’re following that and we’re bringing that into our businesses and that’s what I call the broken cookie effect when we undervalue ourselves we underprice our services and then we over deliver so we struggle to be profitable we Really have a lot of limiting behaviors because I believe everything in your business flows from your pricing, when you can hire, who you can hire, the technology that you bring into your company, all of the things that you spend money on, you can’t do that.  And you don’t have those choices unless your pricing is appropriate and your company is profitable. And so, What I’ve seen is that everyone around us, our clients, our staff, our families, everybody gets the whole cookie and we live on crumbs.  Sarah: Yeah, that’s quite the story. And it’s, I could think of at least three or four  women, uh, in my personal life that I’ve seen kind of doing similar things.  And then also, yes, in business, I think this definitely, um, resonates and I, I see that. I obviously I didn’t know about the cookie story before, but to me, it’s like this feminine energy, we’re so good at certain things, the caretaking, the, the empathy, we’re both, um, HSPs as well, highly sensitive people, Patty.  And so there’s this, you know, very nurturing care that we bring to our business and the feminine energy. But on the other side of the coin, there’s then also this, yeah, this broken cookie effect where we struggle to take care of ourselves, right? Um,  Patty: yeah. Let me add that the broken cookie effect is not about putting yourself first and everybody else last.   That’s against our nature. I mean, talking exactly about what you’re talking about in terms of our feminine energy and our need and ability to nurture. Those are all parts of who we are as humans. And I don’t mean to minimize those or dismiss those at all, but there’s a reason that you’re in business.  And it’s a reason that there’s a business instead of a hobby. And that is to make money. And often we have to live on the money that we make from our businesses. So there is a real consequence if we’re always putting ourselves last. And So worried about taking care of everyone around us that we miss the idea that unless we take care of ourselves emotionally logistically Being able to delegate being able to put boundaries around what you’re doing and saying Unless we’re able to do that effectively,  then there’s such a high toll that it takes on us as a person Yeah,  Sarah: so true.  And on the other hand, I see this kind of Um, either in where, especially in the, you know, the conscious entrepreneur sphere, and I’m again, specifically thinking of women, but it’s probably all, all genders who want to be affordable for everybody because, you know, we’re conscious entrepreneurs and so we need to be affordable for, for everybody.  Um, And then we apply low prices and, and, and at the same time, then burning out because we just can’t be sustainable with these low prices. So, uh, yeah. So how do we knowing all of that? How do we do it differently where it feels good to ourselves, but it also feels good for our clients who.  You know, where we still want to respect that not everybody can maybe afford high level prices.  What’s your suggestion  Patty: here? So that was the question that was really ringing in my head was the phrase that I often hear from women business owners is, but if I raise my prices, it’s not fair to my. Buyers, it’s not fair to my clients. So remember that you as the business owner have a lot of choices and you get to set the stage for what you do and what you don’t do.  But sometimes we forget that and we think the client is the boss, right? And sometimes we’ve created a job for ourselves instead of building a business. So part of the work that I do is working with women that are further along in their journey, and they want to start building real business value so that one day they can exit their company  and sell it if they choose to.  But one of the challenges is that when I talk to women business owners, especially those that are expertise based, They say, but I don’t have anything to sell and that is a real misunderstanding of value. So I’m going to go back to the original point about pricing. So the antidote to the broken cookie effect, how you can beat that is with a four step system that I’ve developed called the snap system.  And the reason there are four pieces and it’s not as simple as raising your prices because if it were that simple. Everybody would do that every year. And just call it a day, right? But it’s not simple, exactly to your point. So the SNAP system stands for S Stop believing the myths and narrow your focus a assess your value and P practice your power and this  actually is the structure of my book, which is called your hidden advantage and that’s a great place to start because not only will you learn the concepts around this, but also their exercises.  And, um, when you go through those exercises, it will help you gain some clarity because a lot of the reason that we don’t change our pricing or add structure to it is because we’re afraid. And because sometimes we think, well, that’s not fair, but remember you have choices. So here’s what I typically recommend is.  Add structure to your pricing, build a pricing model. It makes you more confident because there’s a rationale behind how you’re pricing and do that only with new clients. And leave your current clients alone. You can change the pricing over time with your existing clients, but there’s no big hurry  and your new clients won’t really know the difference.  So going back to the snap system, stop believing the myths. So those are all those limiting beliefs like pricing. I price based on what the market can bear. And that is. That’s kind of my pet peeve because there’s no such thing as what the market can bear as long as you understand that there’s a price point for every buyer.  And we see that all the time. We see that in retail, right? There are different stores. You can buy a blouse in any of those stores, but which woman shops in which store depends on how much money she can spend and what she thinks is important and your buyers. Come to you with that same mindset. So if you can build what I call the perceived value The value in the mind of your buyer, then every step you take to build value helps your buyer  understand your pricing, your compensation, and there isn’t any pushback.  Now, the important part of that is the end. Narrow your focus, because that’s about finding right fit clients, what I call ideal buyers. And a lot of times we’re waiting for the phone to ring, we’re only, we only have an inbound process. Sometimes we don’t have a process at all. We’re waiting for the phone to ring and then we’re winging it, trying to figure out how do we convince this person to buy from us.  And that approach Does not work or if it works temporarily all of a sudden it will stop working and you will be shocked and horrified that now what do you do your job is the business owner is not to convince anyone of anything that’s just not your role you if you  provide an expertise. Or if you provide any kind of service or even a product product is a little bit easier because you have a supply chain and you can price your product partially based on the expenses of producing that product with a service company sometimes it feels like we pick a number out of thin air.  And that doesn’t feel good. So building a pricing model is really important. But the snap system is in that order for a reason, because the limiting thinking is your first issue. So I teach in my book, how do you shift the way you think? The second piece, narrow your focus is about finding those buyers who understand the value you bring.  That means they also will understand your pricing model and they’re going to be such great clients because they already value you and the assess your value is about building your pricing  model and I teach how to do that in the book as well and the last piece is practice your power that is all about communicating and the huge challenge we have as women is that we’re typically raised not to talk about ourselves.  And that if you talk about yourself, it’s bragging and that doesn’t feel good. So I’m based in Houston, Texas in the U S and we have a saying here in Texas that it’s not bragging if it’s true. And I grew up believing that, that we can talk about ourselves effectively without it feel like. Feeling like it’s bragging so that is part of what I teach as well is how do you communicate assertively and with confidence and I teach very specific techniques to do that.  Sarah: There’s so much that, um, you just shared in just a few minutes. And I, I want to unpack some, uh, some of the things you, you mentioned. I think the  first thing that really stood out, and I think it’s super important to, to repeat is you said applied new prices to new clients. Keep your old prices for existing clients.  And I think. That is really unique advice or, or, or maybe other people say it, but they don’t say it often enough because I feel like there’s this message that everybody hears, Oh, I need to always increase my prices. And then people go out and send out this email to all their clients saying my prices are now, you know, this much, and then they start losing all their clients and they wonder what they did wrong, um, well, they, what they did wrong is that.  The previous clients, they bought into the value that you sold them then, right? And so you really need to kind of communicate your new value first, so that the new clients  buy into this new value that you’re selling. And I think that, yeah, that’s key. And that’s, that’s really what I’m doing right now with the humane marketing circle as well.  Um, and I’m going to be very transparent about that. You know, the existing clients, they are members, let’s say they bought in at a lower price and it’s normal, uh, that when you build a community, there’s not that much, uh, not that many members yet, not that much engagement, right. You could get in at a lower price, but now we have 60 members.  There’s now four calls per month. Well, the value has increased like by huge amounts. And so obviously I had to raise my price. And so the new members will, yes, they will get in at a higher price, but they also buy in at a higher value. And I think that’s really important to understand that you can’t just expect.  Now, if I would send out to all my existing members saying, Oh, the price is  now double. Well, a few of them would probably say, well, okay, but that’s too bad. I bought in at this rate. Now this won’t work for me anymore. It’s not that they don’t value it. It’s more just like. They bought into it when it was a different price.  And so they would be disappointed, uh, to see that, you know, the price now doubled. And I think that is so key to remember then just not do that with existing clients either. Um, so yeah, I really appreciate you saying that.  Patty: Yes, and think about it this way, too. The people who bought in at the beginning took a risk, right?  Yeah, there could have been very little value and I bet all of us have experienced that where we’ve gotten involved with a program And it turned out there really wasn’t that much value to it Right. We took a risk spending our money and investing in something Because we believed in the person doing it or  we thought there was going to be a lot of value So not only did we take a risk, but we’ve remained loyal We’ve remained a member because we’re happy to help that grow Exactly.  Yeah, and we’ve all had that experience. So I think there should be some reward For that taking a risk and being loyal and helping build the membership exactly and because of that Keeping the legacy prices makes sense to everybody. Mm hmm.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, the other things you mentioned in your, in your SNAP system, um, so the first one, yeah, is basically the mindset piece, right?  How do you get, how do you stop believing some of these myths around pricing? And it’s so important that Everything you do starts with the mindset shift. Um, and I’m so glad you, yeah, you talk about that too. And then, uh, just like in  marketing or branding as well, like anything we do online, well, we need to be very clear who we are talking to.  And so it seems like it’s the same thing for our prices. The one question I have, and I guess it’s the same in marketing, um, can we have different ideal clients? And if so, will the prices be different?  Patty: Possibly. So, yes, um, I think what you’re describing is clients who want different services.  Sarah: It could be different.  It could be different services. Um, it could be different. It could be the same service, but different levels of access things like this,  Patty: right? Absolutely. And you can customize that. So that is the power of the pricing model, right? As you could use one pricing model with different levels. Right.  And, um, so I have two parts to my audience.  One are those that are earlier in their journey, they’re very focused on growth and that’s really who I wrote the book for. The other part of my audience are women that are further along in their journey and want a position for exit. So there is a difference in, it’s the same pricing model that I use, but there’s a difference because Transcribed There’s a difference in complexity in terms of how I’m advising those business owners.  So yes, that works really well. You can also, and I give examples of this in the book, you can take a couple different pricing models and blend those together. And use kind of a hybrid that works really well. And I can give you an example. I work with a lot of accountants and many of them are outsourced chief financial officers.  So they’re advising  other businesses about their business, their financial strategies and. The base pricing model that we developed is a monthly fee for the advisory services, but almost a hundred percent of the clients need some kind of project at the beginning. Let’s say they need their bookkeeping cleaned up or they need an audit.  An informal audit done to figure out where they are financially. Sometimes things have gotten messed up with a previous bookkeeper. So they need that project at the beginning. So we have a scoping template that will help them do that to figure out the pricing for that project, and then they go into the monthly fee.  So that’s a hybrid. Situation and regardless of the dollar amount that you put on that model the  model stays the same and that is something it’s easier for your buyers to understand it easier for you to talk about it because all of a sudden when you’re talking about it you’re talking about the structure and it’s not personal.  It’s not about you or your expertise or your staff. It’s about the structure of the pricing and your buyer will really understand that. Right.  Sarah: So if I’m understanding this correctly, when you talk about the pricing model, that means it’s specific to your business. And in the case of the, uh, outsourced, uh, CFO, uh, it could take some done for you work and then kind of a retainer portion.  Right. And so it just depends on what kind of services. You are, um, delivering and how would this, because I have a lot of coaches who, who are listening, could you give me an idea of how  this could work if you’re mainly selling your coaching services, could there be a done for you proportion to it? How could you, um, Come up with a creative pricing model.  Patty: So it would really depend on the services the coaches are offering. So most coaches, especially business coaches, are helping them with different aspects of their business. So that’s why a monthly amount, perhaps it’s paid at the beginning of every month, what I could call a retainer. Perhaps that is a really good method.  Now, the reason That people are afraid to do that is because they feel as though they might get taken advantage of. They’re still thinking in hours and they’re thinking. What right there thinking well what if my client calls me like three times a day and it’s kind of driving me crazy and all this stuff and i’m not really being compensated for that because i have this flat  rate monthly fee so that goes back to boundaries and setting expectations so i believe that.  When we’re talking about finding your ideal client, that’s backwards because you need to find an ideal buyer and help them be ready to buy so that you can then help them become an ideal client. That does not happen by accident. And it happens when you set and manage those expectations at the very beginning.  Once they become a client and you draw those boundaries and you help them understand what’s included and what is not included. And then if they need. extra help, then you have the ability to go back to them and say, well, you’ll recall that our setup is that this includes two meetings a month and emails.  If you would like to add some meetings or calls, I have this piece that you  can add on to it. And this is what it would cost again, structural, not personal. And it makes it so much easier to go back to your client and say, I’m happy to help you. And here’s what it will cost to add on this piece and whether or not your client is going to say, yes, depends on if they can afford it.  And if they value it. And if you’ve shown them every step of the way, the kind of value that you bring. So going back to what you said a few minutes ago about there is no cookie cutter solution. That is true of everything in your business and most importantly, pricing. There is no cookie cutter answer and you need to figure out what works in your business with the population that you want to work with.  And right now you may not have a population of ideal clients. You may feel as though you have to take everyone who comes to you. In order to generate enough revenue  and that is a trap it’s a really unfortunate trap and a very common one so if you will take a step back and really go out and find your ideal buyer you have to define who that is and then go find them and I give some strategies in the book once you do that then you’ll you will notice a night and day difference because.  Then you’re working with people that you’re excited to work with. You get great results. They’re willing to put in the work and you’re not just taking anyone who comes to you. And it makes that whole pricing conversation kind of a non issue because everyone understands the value.  Sarah: Yeah, let’s talk about this value.  Um, because I think that’s one thing that is hugely important for pricing, right? Uh, so how, what are some strategies that you can share that would help listeners?  Communicate their value better, because if we said it before, you can’t just increase your prices. You need to, I think, first increase your confidence.  Uh, so I guess to go back to the myths, right, that’s where you need to stop and start on working on your confidence and in your mindset. And then and then also communicate your value in a different way so what are some ways that you have seen with clients how did they start to communicate their value  Patty: differently one of the problems that we start with is that we think value is.  All about the results. It is largely about results and you certainly want to get results, but I bet your audience is already getting good results and I bet they pride themselves on that because most of us are high achievers and we, that’s the problem with over delivering  is it’s such a slippery slope because once you say, okay, I’ll add that.  I’m not going to charge you extra. I’ll go ahead and add that service. Where can where do you stop right and your client doesn’t understand the value because you just gave it to them for free So again, it’s a trap and then how do you say no in the future, right? It becomes more and more difficult. We feel more and more afraid so When you start things from the very beginning It’s really helpful.  So Some examples of how can you build value think about all the things? In fact, let me share an exercise that your audience can do today, and that is find a, an accountability partner, someone who knows you well, knows your business, you know them and their business, and you’re about the same point in your journey,  and you are going to write down.  Everything of value that you think the other person provides for their clients, and they’re going to do the same thing for you, then you’re going to exchange. And it’s a really powerful exercise because they will put things on your list. That you would never have thought of. So when I did this exercise many, many years ago, the thing that surprised me most is that the first item on the list that I received was calm and that I have a calming voice and a calming demeanor.  I would never have put that on my list.  Sarah: Yeah, because you just are the way you are. Right. And so you exactly know that about, well, maybe you knew it, but you didn’t think it was a value because. You just assumed everybody  Patty: was like that. That’s exactly right. And then I went and tested the things on my list, and every  time I would ask them, so what do you think of calm as one of the points of value?  And every single person I talked to, clients and colleagues, they all said, oh, of course. Absolutely. You have the most calming voice and my clients would say, and I know if I call you and I’m completely freaked out about something, you’re going to share a different perspective and it’s going to calm me down and I’m going to be able to make better decisions.  So it’s tremendously valuable, but I didn’t recognize that. So you will be surprised at what people put on your list. And that’s why it’s such a powerful exercise. Then once you get your list, go test it. And ask people in your circle. The other thing that we often overlook is our network, your network. If you’ve spent time and energy building your network of people and contacts and those other  experts, that is incredible value for your clients.  And yet, just like being calm, we think, Oh, but you know, everybody has a network and everybody thinks, you know, that’s, that’s what you do in business. But I will tell you, if you can shortcut something for your clients by making an introduction to somebody that you already trust, that is a huge value. So those kinds of things that we are not thinking of on a day to day basis will help build value.  If you have staff, even if they’re contractors, they don’t have to be employees, but anyone that helps you in your business. That is valuable to your clients because anybody you have helping you means you get to focus on what you do best. And that helps your clients. Yeah,  Sarah: that’s such a good point. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s the small things.  That  again, like you said, we don’t think of that are actually make the big difference and, and, and sometimes it’s in, I talk in the selling like a human book, I talk about tangible value and intangible value. And so some of the things you just mentioned is intangible, right? Well, how does calming that’s going to help my inner.  Garden, right? And so that’s kind of intangible where some of the tangible value is, is maybe something that is really easy for you. For example, what’s really easy for me is to write someone’s LinkedIn profile. I’ve done that for 15 years, right? So it’s really easy for me, for someone else, for my clients.  That is a huge burden. And so they’re like super appreciative of me adding this just as an add on, uh, service. Right. And so that, that’s the, kind of the done for you aspects that you can add that then  also kind of show this tangible value where they can say, okay, check, you know, this is now also off my plate.  And there are, there, there’s not one that’s better than the other. I feel like tangible and intangible. They are equal in, especially in the times we are now, like serenity, calm, focus, all of these things are so super valuable. So I’m really glad you, you brought those up and, and what a great exercise. Yeah.  To do that with a friend who then brings out things that you didn’t even know about. Right. Yeah. What are some things, uh, advice that you could give. Someone who’s, who’s just starting out and, and are, is probably struggling still with this idea of, uh, determining fair pricing, where would you tell them to start?  It’s probably definitely the, you know, stop the, the myths. That’s probably the first step. But then if we go into the more tangible things,  where would you tell them to start?  Patty: Well, you know. I’ve experienced exactly what you’re describing just starting out. So in a former life, I had a business in political consulting and lobbying and had that business for about eight years.  And the challenge that I experienced was that my revenue was tied to the election cycle in the U. S. So I was on this rollercoaster all the time, revenue ups and downs. So that was really frustrating. And if there were resources to help me. Grow my business and solve those problems. I didn’t know how to find those resources and I didn’t know who to trust.  So that was really frustrating for me. I also, I was a really good consultant, but I didn’t know how to price and I didn’t know how to sell and. When I went out to try and find programs and courses and figure all that out and I took a lot of those What I found is that  primarily they were designed by men for men and they weren’t working for me And when I started talking to my friends who were business owners, they said the same thing Well, I tried that method and it didn’t work for me either and at first we think it’s us We think, oh, well, I just can’t make that work.  The problem is they’re not understanding. Those programs are not understanding the way women think, the way we operate, the way we struggle, how we’re juggling a million things, including our families and our businesses and our personal needs and all of those things and sometimes taking care of parents.  And so I’ve been in that situation and. I really struggled when I was starting my business in political consulting, and that’s why I started developing my own programs, because it’s designed by a woman, by me, specifically for other women business owners. And that  has worked really well. So I would say if you’re just starting out, take advantage of the shortcuts that are available to you.  Don’t struggle for as many years as I did. I wish someone had. Been able to provide some relief for me, but I had to figure it out myself. And so what I would recommend is read your hidden advantage, because that is the recipe for the different steps that you can take with the snap system of how you can learn how to price, how to deal with your limiting beliefs, how to find the right people that you want to work with.  And when I say right, people, right. People for you. Right. So you probably already know who you do want to work with and who you do not want to work with. You can start with who you don’t want to work with, right? Sometimes that’s easier and rule  out the people. So my guess is no one in your audience wants to work with somebody who is arrogant and mean.  All right, definitely. Okay, so if we eliminate all the arrogant, mean people, then you can start to pair back. Well, what’s the opposite of that? Who do I really want to work with? I want to work with kind, giving, thoughtful, smart people. And then I start. Really creating a picture. So a colleague of mine asked me not too long ago, if I had to pick a fictional character as my ideal buyer, who would it be?  And it only took me about 10 seconds to realize, have you ever seen the show, the X Files? Okay. Dana Scully is my ideal buyer. If, if she was a business owner, she would absolutely be my ideal buyer because she’s a high achieving, highly educated woman. She is devoted to her  work. Sometimes she thinks her work is her hobby and she takes responsibility.  She makes good decisions. She believes in evidence based science, but she’s open to new ideas. That really describes my ideal buyer. And when you can think of a fictional character in that way, that may help you determine who you really want to work with, then you want to attract them in your messaging and how you talk about yourself, your value, and then you want to go out and find that person.  And remember that even if you’re selling into big companies, you’re still selling to a person. It’s still a human being. And when I say selling, I don’t mean convincing. I mean, taking them on a sales journey so that they’re ready to buy and they understand the value and they’re excited to work with you.   Yeah,  Sarah: yeah, I call it resonating. And so it’s very similar, right? Because we’re not pushing and it’s just being present out there and yeah, resonating with the right clients. So they come into your gentle sales path and in the gentle sales path, there was no convincing, just like you mentioned people. And I guess that’s why I have focused so heavily on marketing because.  When you market the human way, you then don’t almost don’t need to sell anymore because then it’s just, it’s just a human conversation that has to do with money, but there is no pushing kind of, you know, it’s not a unidirectional sales conversation where you’re pushing something. So,  Patty: and I believe. Yeah, I believe the same thing.  And again, that works so much better and more effectively for women.  Sarah: Yeah,  exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I was reflecting on this whole thing with the, you know, with this feminine energy and the, the cookie story, like, cause we have obviously male listeners as well. And I, I’m just actually curious. To, I would love to hear if you’re listening to this and you’re in a male body, uh, I would love to hear whether you see this happening as well in the business world, I’d be curious because I see it even in like mastermind groups or small communities like that where, you know, we’re very value aligned and the males are very much Hey.  Um, aligned also with the feminine energy. And yet I always feel like to them, it’s just normal to be seen, to take up space. And it’s not the same for the women in the group, right?  Even though the values are aligned, even though they’re not, you know, macho type guys who, you know, that they, but it’s just comes natural.  And I think it’s, it’s part of our history. It’s just how we’ve, yeah, we’ve kind of. Evolved over time and always looking at our, our moms and the moms before that is really part of this, uh, story that we need to let  Patty: go of. There is and also if you keep in perspective, the pressure that is put on the guys.  So I have two brothers and when I was growing up, there was a lot of pressure put on my brothers because they were expected to be breadwinners. I, as a woman. Now, again, you can think of this as chauvinistic, but I wasn’t expected to be a breadwinner. I became a breadwinner, but I wasn’t raised that way.  And I had to  learn a lot of these skills, which I did with my political consulting business. And but then I have to say, all of a sudden I was 35 years old, had three little kids at home, a thriving business and a surprise divorce. And I was thrust into the situation of all of a sudden I’m now responsible because there was no financial support.  So I’m responsible for raising my three children on my own with no emotional, logistical or financial support. And that is why I closed my political consulting business. And went to get a job and part of that was because a lobbying required a lot of travel and I knew that I needed to be home to stabilize things for the kids at that time.  My youngest was about 2 and he just turned 31. So, I have raised my children myself and I have, um, help them all get through  college and graduate school and launch their careers. And now they’re all 3 business owners. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you. So, you know, all the twists and turns that we experience in our lives.  I wasn’t raised to be a breadwinner, but I became that because I had to. And because of that, those skills that I learned. Over the course of my life now, I really can put them to work in teaching other women how to build your confidence You have more power and choices than you realize And again part of that is how we’re raised and it’s generational So 30 or 40 years from now, maybe that won’t be the case for women But right now it is and we are very influenced by previous generations and the role models that we grew up with Yeah,  Sarah: let’s hope it won’t be like that anymore 30, 30 years  from now, or hopefully even less.  Patty: Exactly.  Sarah: Wonderful. Well, this has been really interesting and, uh, yeah, just very great and deep conversation. Thank you so much, Patty. Please do mention your book again, and where people can find you, your website, everything.  Patty: You bet, and thank you again for having me, this has been great. You can contact me through my website, theblockgroup.  net, and if you’re interested in the book, There are several bonuses that you can download for free that are companion pieces to the book, including a video training called The Value Equation. And the book is called Your Hidden Advantage, which you can find on Amazon. But if you go to yourhiddenadvantage.  com, you can also access the bonuses.  Sarah: Wonderful. I’ll make sure to put those links in the show notes. Thank you. I always ask one last question, uh, Patty, and that is what are you grateful for  this week or today?  Patty: Well, I have a new grandson and, and he made me a grandmother. So I am, he’s just turning six months old.  And very sadly, my mom passed away about six months ago. She, she died a month or two before he was born. And, um, It was very shocking because she wasn’t ill and she was so happy. And my mom and I were very, very close. And in fact, the book is in many ways, a tribute to my mom. And there are stories about her.  And as I was writing the book and she was so excited for it to come out and I would ask her, can I use this story? Can I use this photograph? And she was so excited with all the pieces that I was adding to the book. And. Sadly, she passed away very suddenly, and it turns out that my new grandson is named  after her.  So it’s really a lovely tribute, and I’m so grateful that I’m grateful for my family, my children, for sure, and for my new grandson.  Sarah: Yeah, it’s wonderful. Yeah. Sorry for your mom’s passing, but who knows? Maybe he, he really took her spirit and, and came back. Yes. It’s wonderful. Thanks so much for spending time with me today.  Thanks, Patty. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Patti and her work at theblockgroup. net and Patti has a free training called The Value Equation, which you can get for free by signing up for the bonuses that are companion pieces for Patti’s book, Your Hidden Advantage, Unlock the Power to Attract Right Fit Clients and Boost Your Revenue, so definitely check it out.  Uh, look up her book and see if that’s a good fit for  you. If you’re looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more about the circle at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And again, a reminder that the early bird discount of 200 for the Marketing Like We’re Human, aka the Client Resonator program, is ending on July 31st.  So if you are interested in that program and would like to benefit from that discount, please make sure you book a call with me before that deadline. It doesn’t matter if we speak after, I will still apply the discount, but just send me an email and we’ll book a call. And, uh, yeah, I’d love to have to have you on that, uh, program.  You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M one 69. And on this beautiful page, you’ll also find a series of free offers  such as the humane business manifesto in the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we’re human and selling like we’re human. Thank you so much for listening. And being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.
54:46 7/28/23
Can a Service Business Have a Product Line?
In this episode we dive into the topic of service lines. In this solo episode I explore the relevance of service lines for service-based businesses and draws parallels to product lines commonly used in product-based businesses. I explain how service lines can provide clarity, structure, and differentiation to offerings. Using the example of the Humane Marketing service line, I highlight various products and services within the line that help individuals adopt Humane Marketing in their business. I discussed the benefits of implementing service lines, such as showcasing expertise, targeting specific niches, and helping clients understand pricing models. Tune in to gain insights on how service lines can benefit your service-based business and enhance your marketing approach. In this episode I talked about: Product lines vs. Service lines The benefits of having service lines in service-based businesses Steps to implement service lines in your business The role of service lines in pricing and packaging services Having multiple service lines targeting different client segments Effective marketing and promotion of different service lines and much more [00:00:00] Sarah Santacroce: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Roche, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start. [00:00:44] Implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. [00:01:03] This is a closed community. Of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. [00:01:30] Find out more. At Humane Marketing slash Circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane Marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends. It's been a while since I've done a solo episode, so in today's episode it's just me by myself talking about the P of product at. Term that we often hear related to product is the term product line. Uh, clearly this is a term that's mainly used for a product-based business, one that has different products and clusters of products that fall under the same product line.[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Each product is sold individually, but they are part of the same product line. For example, a shampoo, hair wax, hairspray, hair mask, et cetera, et cetera. So that's usually what we call a product line. So I was thinking, well, can this apply also to a service-based business? Can we have service lines? And the answer is a clear yes. [00:03:25] And we should, um, so maybe to start, It would help to understand what a service line is. Um, just like a product line, like I just said, consists of a group of related products. Well, a service line refers to a collection of related services offered by a business. So these services may differ in their specific features, pricing, ideal clients, or any other distinguishing factors, but they all. [00:03:57] Fall under the umbrella of the same [00:04:00] service line. Think of it as a way to categorize and organize the services you offer to your clients. Let's take Humane Marketing as an example in the Humane Marketing service line. Uh, we have this podcast, which is obviously free. It's a free product, if you will, or a service, I don't really know. [00:04:23] Um, the marketing like or human book, which is a low cost investment to learn more about humane marketing. So that's a product, the humane marketing circle. Our community, a monthly subscription for Humane Marketers. That's a service. The marketing like we're human, aka the Client Resonator program, which starts again on August 24th, by the way. [00:04:46] So that's my flagship program that I run to twice per year. Um, and that's related to the seven Ps of humane marketing. Um, So it's a service program and then one-on-one [00:05:00] coaching with one of our certified Humane marketing coaches, or with myself. So again, another service. And then finally, bespoke humane marketing workshops for organ organizations. [00:05:13] So all of these products or services have one thing in common, helping individuals adopt humane marketing in their business. So it's all about. Humane marketing. Then I also have a humane selling service line, which starts with the selling, like we're human book, the community, the Fair and authentic Pricing mini course. [00:05:37] So that's a standalone, uh, service slash product because it comes with a video course, but also one-on-one session with me. Um, That talks about pricing, and so that's why it fits more into the Humane Selling service line and then also the one-on-one coaching, uh, with me. Here, the main objective is related to [00:06:00] sales. [00:06:00] Um, they are distinct service lines with different objectives, and each product service is a standalone offer, and yet they relate to each other just like, uh, shampoo and hair racks do. So obviously not everyone needs hair waxs, but some people want the whole service line. So there, there's like a natural progression to. [00:06:26] You know, go from one thing to the next. I purposely don't call it a funnel because, uh, if you're a regular listener here, you know that we don't talk about sales funnels. We talk about gentle sales paths. And so I guess gentle sales path would kind of be similar to this idea of a service line. So why do we need. [00:06:50] Service lines as service-based businesses? Well, there are several benefits to adopting this approach. First, uh, service lines [00:07:00] provide clarity and structure to your offerings by grouping similar services to together you create a more organized framework that helps your clients understand the different options available to them. [00:07:14] Secondly, service lines allow you to showcase your expertise in specialization so people know. Okay, SU. She has two service lines, humane Marketing, humane selling. Uh, I'm actually adding a, a third one or it's already kind of dormant and I'll tell you about it more in a second. Um, just as a product line can cater to different customers needs and preferences, service lines enable you to target specific niches or industries and position yourself as an expert in those areas. [00:07:47] And this can enhance your brand reputation and attract clients who are looking for specialized services. Tailored to their unique requirements. And thirdly, it also helps your [00:08:00] clients understand your pricing model. Some products or services are at the lower end and others are at the higher end. In order to get started to, to put in place your service lines, there are a few steps to follow. [00:08:16] Step one is to really have a look at all your current services. If you have several services already, um, Take a close look at the services you offer and then identify any natural groupings or similarities. Just like I just said, you know, is it se, is it selling related? Is it marketing related? In my case, that's how I define the different service lines. [00:08:42] Are there services that compliment each other or serve the same ideal client? These are potential candidates for your service lines, step two. Then involves defining the unique value proposition for each service line. So again, Mar, is it marketing [00:09:00] or is it selling? What sets each group of services apart from the others? [00:09:05] Is there a specific benefit or outcome that clients can expect from choosing that service line? I told you about marketing and selling one. Outcome is a better marketing strategy. The other outcome is a better sales strategy. Clearly articulating the value of each service line will help you differentiate them and attract the right customers. [00:09:29] Step three is all about branding and marketing. Just as a product line needs effective branding to stand out. Your service lines should have their own distinctive branding elements. This could include a unique name, logo, website, section, and other marketing collaterals tailored to each service line. By giving each service line its own identity, you make it easier for clients to understand and engage with the [00:10:00] different offerings. [00:10:01] In my, in my case, everything to do with marketing is in the color emerald green. Everything to do with humane selling is in the color earth, red, so, And as I hinted at before, as of next year when I have the third book about being human in business, I'll have a third service line, which will be all about sustainable and humane business building practices and changing our relationship to work. [00:10:33] That third service line is in dark blue. And you already see those colors reflected on my site. I planned for them when I did my big rebrand two years ago. So I already have on the homepage, you already see Humane Business in blue. It's just that, um, I didn't have the different services that go under the service line yet. [00:10:57] So, um, that's what I have for you [00:11:00] to wrap up. I thought it would be fun to ask chat g PT what kind of questions listeners might have after listening to this short episode. And here are a few that it suggested Are service lines applicable to solo entrepreneurs or small businesses? In the answer, um, that. [00:11:20] It helped me, uh, write, but then of course, I, uh, I added to it and corrected it. So, yes, service lines are applicable to solo entrepreneurs and small businesses, as well as I just demonstrated, um, with my own example. They can help you organize your services, create a clear value proposition, and resonate with specific client segments. [00:11:44] Should all services offered by a business be part of a service line? Not necessarily. While grouping services into service lines can provide clarity and structure, it's not mandatory for all services to be part [00:12:00] of a services line. Some services may be unique and or standalone offerings that do not fit with any, uh, particular service line. [00:12:09] I'm thinking of a new program called The Business Book Alchemist. I'm launching this fall to help fellow renegade authors write their first book that becomes part of their life's work. It may fit into the humane business service line, but I'm not sure about that yet. So right now, I created as a standalone one-off program. [00:12:33] How do service lines help with pricing and packaging of services? Service lines help with pricing and packaging by providing a framework for differentiating services and creating pricing tiers. So by categorizing services into service lines, you can offer different packages or pricing models based on the specific value and outcomes associated with each service [00:13:00] line. [00:13:01] Can I have multiple service lines targeting different client segments? Yes, you can. Different clients have different needs and you can tailor your services accordingly. So each service line can focus on a specific ideal client industry or niche. So this just makes me also think of my, um, workshops for organizations. [00:13:27] It, it's a complete different service line again, uh, from all the other services that I offered to, uh, entrepreneurs, heart-centered entrepreneurs. How do you market and promote different service lines effectively? Uh, we talked about that to promote and market different service lines, it helps to develop distinct branding elements for each service line. [00:13:53] So unique names like Humane Marketing, humane selling, Hume Unique logos, different [00:14:00] colors, website sections, and other marketing collateral tailored to each service line. I hope you found this short episode, solo episode helpful, and, uh, it makes you think a little bit about your own services, how you bundle them, if there's any kind of logic in terms of service lines in it. [00:14:23] This is obviously, uh, a strategy that applies more to someone who has been in business for a few years already and maybe has different services and products, but without a clear strategy. If this is your case and you'd like to work on this with a coach, it's the kind of thing that I love helping my clients with. [00:14:43] Um, so have a look at my one-on-one coaching page on humane marketing. I also mentioned the marketing, like we're human. Uh, Program, aka the client Resonator, as being one product of my product slash service line. So that's [00:15:00] my flagship program to either build the foundation to market from within from the start. [00:15:06] But it also applies to entrepreneurs who have been in business for several years, but feels like, feel like there's some kind of detachment from their business because they've not built it from the inside out. They've billed it from a need, you know, to pay the bills or from a need to serve a specific client, but they haven't started from who they are. [00:15:32] Uh, and, uh, their values, their worldview. So, You are your business. That's why in the marketing, like we're human program, we start with you, with your passion, your why, and your personal power. Uh, of course, uh, it's based on the seven Ps of humane marketing, the ones we follow here on this podcast, and I run it live again this August, starting August 24th. [00:15:58] So if this, [00:16:00] Gets you curious. Have a look at Humane Marketing slash program to see if this your, this is your next step, and make sure to read the testimonials and case studies to get a real feel for the transformation you can expect. Let's get on a call and talk about it like humans. Thanks so much for listening. [00:16:23] You find the show notes of this episode at. Humane Marketing. Hm, 1 68. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like We're Human. And selling like we're human. [00:16:47] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who care for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you [00:17:00] want to see in the world. Speak soon.
17:13 7/14/23
What Would a Humane Web Look Like
In this week’s episode of The Humane Marketing Show, we have the pleasure of speaking with Tom Greenwood about the concept of a Humane Web. Tom is the co-founder of Wholegrain Digital, a trailblazing digital agency that prioritizes sustainability as a Certified B Corp. Renowned for his expertise in business, design, and web technology's role in addressing environmental issues, Tom is also the author of the enlightening book, Sustainable Web Design. Throughout our thought-provoking conversation, we explore the meaning of a Humane Web, its connection to ethical design, and the crucial role website owners play in contributing to a more humane web. We delve into best practices for prioritizing user wellbeing while achieving marketing objectives, discuss the social and environmental impacts of AI, and highlight successful examples of organizations embracing the principles of the Humane Web. Tune in now to gain a fresh perspective on the future of digital marketing and web design. In this thought-provoking episode we discuss about: How Tom’s newsletter readers described a humane web and what Tom’s definition is What humane web has to do with ethical design Best practices for website owner to do their part to contribute to a Humane Web The winners of a humane web: humans AND the planet The social and environmental impacts of AI How Tom sees the future of humane web and much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [00:02:30] Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of People of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you're a regular here, you kind of already know what I'm talking about. And these are the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you're curious about those seven Ps of humane marketing, you can go to[00:03:00] [00:03:00] One page, the number one and the word page, and download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. So today I'm speaking with Tom Greenwood about a humane Web. When I first saw him, uh, talk about this in one of his newsletters, I was like, well, I just have to talk to Tom, but before you, I tell you a bit more about Tom. [00:03:33] Allow me a moment to share that. I just. Open the doors again to my marketing like we're human, a k a, the Client Resonator program. So this is my flagship program. It's a three month program that is tightly linked actually to this podcast because it follows the same framework, the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. [00:03:57] It's a deep dive into these seven [00:04:00] Ps to help you discover who you are. What your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak. So we're really kind of flipping the script and starting with ourselves rather than the usual marketing program that immediately goes to your ideal client, the avatar, and then focuses on, uh, techniques and strategies. [00:04:26] We're starting with ourself first, so it's almost like a business. Or a personal development slash business development program. Uh, it's more than just marketing. It really is building the foundation for your life's work. And we start with passion, personal power, and then go into the outer. So we start with the inner and then go into the outer, the people, the product, the pricing, the promotion, and the partnership with others. [00:04:56] We go deep in an intimate group and. [00:05:00] Really come out transformed with a business that you are truly aligned with. It's a hybrid program with a 20 to 30 minute video to watch each week. Uh, that shares a bit of the framework, the principles. And a lot of, uh, transparent information and kind of lived experience for, from myself. [00:05:21] Uh, it comes also with a beautiful workbook, with journal prompts, and then we have a live group call on Zoom each week to go deeper. So we, I'm not teaching anything on these group calls. I we're just having the space together to go deeper, and that's why. It's such a transformational program because we really get to share and uh, and. [00:05:46] Yeah, make it unique for each person. Who is it for? Well, whether you have one year, five years, or more than 10 years business experience, it's never too late to go back to create the [00:06:00] foundation and is instead of just a business, really create your life's work so you can truly market from. Who you are because that's when things flow freely is when you market from who you are. [00:06:14] And the best is always to hear it from other participants and not just ha have it all from me. So have a look at There are plenty of testimonials. And also a handful of in-depth case studies that really show you the transformation that people have gone through. Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business. [00:06:43] Again, it's starting in August. Uh, August 24th. I'm only running this live. Twice per week. So this is the last time, uh, this year it's a three month program, and yes, I would absolutely love to talk to you and see and find out [00:07:00] whether this is a good fit for you at this time. Okay with that, back to the P of People in today's episode. [00:07:09] So Tom Greenwood is the co-founder of Whole Grain Digital, a certified B Corp and Green Trail Blazer. In the digital agency world, Tom is known for writing and speaking about how business design and web technology can be part of the solution. To end environmental issues and is the author of the book Sustainable Web Design. [00:07:34] So in this, uh, thought-provoking episode, we discussed how Tom's newsletter readers described a humane web and what Tom's definition is of a humane web. What humane web has to do with ethical design, ethical web design. Best practices for website owners to do their part, to contribute to a [00:08:00] humane web, the winners of a humane web, humans and the planet, the social en and environmental impacts of ai. [00:08:11] How Tom sees the future of Humane Web, and I guess also AI and so much more. Let's listen to Tom and this concept of a humane web, which to me just sounds delightful. Let's tune in. Hi Tom Sok. See you and hang out with you for a little while to talk all things humane, like I just said offline. Right. [00:08:38] That's basically what we're here for. I heard you talking about Humane Web and I'm like, I gotta have him on the podcast. You're [00:08:47] Tom: humane. Yeah. And I likewise. I was excited when you reached out and I was like, huh, humane Marketing, like, great. We're on the same page. Yeah, exactly. [00:08:55] Sarah: So the, the. The way. Well, I've been on your email list [00:09:00] for a while, and then obviously when I saw you talking and actually asking readers about how a humane web would look like to them, uh, that's when you got my attention and I'm like, yeah, let's talk about this. [00:09:16] So I'm curious, um, what kind of answers did you get to this question when you asked your readers? [00:09:23] Tom: Yeah, it was really interesting and it, I mean, we got a lot of enthusiastic responses and it was, it was quite mixed. It sort of ranged from people talking about how um, basically like technology should be designed to like, respect humans in terms of like their privacy and their safety and, um, to make things more accessible in a sort of tangible ways to people with kind of maybe like a more like pie in the sky vision of like, A web that is like more personalized and it's actually like, like more like fragmented and [00:10:00] decentralized rather than this sort of like homogenized big tech kind of internet that, that we've come to. [00:10:07] Um, and then other people talking about like more like the experience that we have as humans and that actually, what if it was more. You know, like a garden that you can, or a library, like a place that you can kind of step into and browse calmly, slowly, mindfully relax into like find beauty and inspiration rather than it being like this high paced kind of intense experience that much of, much of the internet's become. [00:10:39] So it was really interesting just hearing kind of like that breadth of. Perspectives on like what that might mean. [00:10:45] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. So interesting. I, I love this image of either the library or the the garden and why not a library in a garden. Exactly. Yeah. That'd be even better. So what that means to me is, yeah, you, [00:11:00] you said it after like what we're experiencing is something so intense and probably, um, Yeah. [00:11:09] It's more like the in our face experience where if you are going to a library, you are the one in control. You are the one who's going to look for information rather than just showing up and everybody's throwing information at you. Right. Is is that also what you Yeah. Exactly. Felt [00:11:25] Tom: that's what happened? [00:11:26] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, that you are really in control of your own journey and, and it's your experience. For you to have and for you to lead rather than mm-hmm. You're kind of entering into these worlds where you're very much kind of led down a path. I mean, at best guided down a path at worst manipulated, you know, to perform certain actions. [00:11:48] Um, Yeah. And sort of, yeah, put people back in the driving seat in control of their own experience, um, in more of a conscious way. [00:11:56] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That's so much aligned with humane marketing [00:12:00] because it, it, in the end, pretty much everything on the web is some type of marketing now, you know? Yeah. It's like wherever you go, You, they want you to enter into a funnel and then basically control your mind and control everything you do. [00:12:16] So it's, yeah, it's, it's very much the same in terms of humane marketing. It's like, well in, give the power back to the people. Right? Yeah. And it seems like that's the same, uh, idea here on, on Humane Web. So, so was that also your definition if you thought of it before? Or did you think of even something else, um, that you can add here? [00:12:41] Tom: Yeah, I think, I think it was a, a mixture of a mixture of things, but I think, I mean, the whole exploration and, and it's still an exploration to be honest at this stage, but the whole exploration that, that some of us at Whole Grain are doing into this concept of a humane web really came from sort of a [00:13:00] frustration that the internet kind of in the early days, Did seem like something that was gonna be very democratic and, you know, allow people to have a voice and controller and experience and share information with each other and build communities and, and it has all of that potential. [00:13:21] And yet more and more it feels like this thing where it's like it's, it's very much like a domain controlled by these big tech companies and where. You know, as you say, like we're we're manipulated into these funnels. It's like it's the web has become a web of funnels. Yeah. And, you know, and, and you enter into it kind of almost at your own risk. [00:13:41] And, and it's not an equal relationship. You're very much like you're going in on their terms. They're doing things behind the scenes to manipulate you that you don't even, you're not even aware of. There's like legal terms that you're effectively agreeing to just by. Like visiting a site or [00:14:00] using an online service. [00:14:01] Um, and then, and then, and then it's like, you know, there's the, also the fallout of like mental health and the fact that actually like, yeah, the internet should be serving us as humans, and yet you have this like, huge mental health crisis that's in par related to our relationship with digital technology and the internet. [00:14:19] And, and it's like, well, something's really wrong here that it's. There are like big corporations that are making vast profits out of the web, but at the same time that it's not that there's not any good things have come from it for, you know, most of us, like we all get some benefit from it day to day, but like on some level it feels like this is, this relationship isn't working like it's unhealthy. [00:14:42] Um, so what would it look like if we reimagine that and said, well, okay, let's kind of go back to the beginning. Take all of the. I guess take capitalism out of it for a minute and sort of say, well, like, let's just look at it as a technology. Like [00:14:58] Sarah: what? Remind me, Tom, [00:15:00] what was the name of the, it's escaping me right now. [00:15:03] Like when it first started, what did they call it? Um, Some term that I'm, I'm forgetting right now, but they actually said it, it's a conversation, you know, the web is a conversation. Um, yeah. So, so really, yeah. That's what you're saying. We need to go back to, right. To, to these early days of the [00:15:24] Tom: internet. [00:15:24] Exactly, exactly. Sort of like today's technology, but with yesterday's principles maybe. Yeah, [00:15:32] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. So much so. Yeah, so true. It's, it's, it's almost like we've. Made such a big, yeah, we lost our way. We lost our way. It's, it's kind of like kids who are given, you know, the, the, the gadget and then they just like lose their way because they're so excited about this s gadget and all, all the things you can do with it, and it ends up going the wrong way. [00:15:58] It ends up [00:16:00] going to almost like, Evil. Right? That's what we've done with this technology and, and or we, we can discuss whether it's you and I, it's definitely the, you know, the, there's always money behind it somehow now. Yeah. Where that was not the intent of, uh, the internet back in the days. [00:16:18] Tom: Yeah. I think that's the thing that it's, there's, there's so much potential to make money by manipulating people that. [00:16:27] In a way that you can't really do as easily in a physical environment. You know, like, you, like digital technology can kind of capture people for like, most of their waking hours. You know, like it's very addictive. You've got your phone with you like all the time. Um, it can ping you and like, you know, pull your attention back in when you start ignoring it in a way that like the physical world can't. [00:16:49] And yeah. And likewise, it's very easy to do like sneaky things in terms of how you. How you manipulate people to perform certain actions or to think a certain [00:17:00] way in ways that if you were in a physical environment, would be a bit more like, I, I think just a bit more tangible for people to sort of see what's going on and think, Hmm, this doesn't feel quite right. [00:17:10] I'm not sure I wanna shop here. Um, right. Um, You know, and even things like privacy terms, you know, that you kind of get sort of forced to like click a button to say like, I agree before you come in. But there's some like giant legal contract behind it that they know that nobody's gonna read. Whereas if you went into a shop, you enter the supermarket and they said, well, before you enter, like, please sign this 30 page contract. [00:17:32] Yeah. You'd probably be like, nah, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna shop there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the green grass. It's, you think about, it's insane. Yeah. Yeah. It is and it's very one-sided. It's sort of like, sign this or you can't come in. Um mm-hmm. So [00:17:47] Sarah: what's the solution? You're working on a solution? Um, what [00:17:53] Tom: is it? [00:17:53] Well, to say we're working on a solution might be overstating it, but we're exploring what [00:18:00] alternatives might look like and I think, I think there are. Like, none of this is like necessary, you know, like we talked about kind of the early days of the web when it wasn't like this on the web. I think the early, you know, pioneers of the web, like Tim Burners, Lee didn't envision it becoming like this. [00:18:17] No. Um, so I think inherently like the principal. Is that you could design and build digital services that don't treat people in this way. And start by actually thinking about like, how you serve their needs. What, what's really gonna be good for them as humans. And do it on the principle like you would've done like any kind of good business in the past where it's like, if we really serve people well, they'll keep coming back rather than if we, if we manipulate them and get 'em addicted. [00:18:49] Um, Then they'll keep coming back. Um, and I do think like there's some challenges in that for certain types of business models where the business models are [00:19:00] inherently based on that principle. Um, you know, some of the social media giants for example. It's like that's I. That's what they're built upon. But on the other hand, I think the vision we're trying to create is that if we actually created beautiful online spaces that treat people well and that they love being in and where they can build real, meaningful connections with other human beings or, or have space to just explore and learn things and, and enjoy things kind of on their own terms that. [00:19:30] Okay. They might not necessarily like, be able to compete head to head with, like Facebook for example. Um, on, but they're not trying to compete directly with Facebook. They're giving people an alternative. They're giving people a choice. It's like, go, you know, go and spend your time here because it respects you and it's a great place to be rather than go over there where you're being exploited. [00:19:49] Um, so yeah, it's so like we are, we are not, I don't think we're ever gonna be, be in a position where we can say, look, hey, look, we've got this solution, but I think we can let help with that [00:20:00] conversation of exploring the principles and trying to embed them into some of our own work and trying to like, You know, experiment with them and see what works and see what doesn't. [00:20:08] Sarah: And don't you think the change is gonna come from bottom up? Uh, not from the big ones. You know that they're not gonna change anything because their model works. It's exactly, it's not scarcity, uh, and addiction like you said. And so why would they change anything? Because the money keeps coming in. So they're not the ones who are going to change. [00:20:28] It's, it's the smaller ones and also, Us, the clients, the customers who are just fed up, uh, with being abused and manipulated. [00:20:38] Tom: Yeah, exactly. It's like the big tech companies have nothing. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by, like, doing things in a more humane way, I think, which is really sad. [00:20:48] And I think it's a kind of, probably a reflection more of the broader mm-hmm. Structure of our society and economy. Um, but equally like we have a, we do have a lot of [00:21:00] personal. Like power over our own destiny. Like we're not actually like hooked into any of these things. Like we can choose to go wherever we want on the internet. [00:21:07] And um, and I think if people offer really humane alternatives, then hopefully, like a growing kind of number of people will start looking at those and thinking, yeah, okay, this feels like a better place to be. Totally. [00:21:24] Sarah: And, and I think what I've actually seen in the marketing world is that, Even small, uh, companies, one person companies, entrepreneurs, since the only models we had were the big. [00:21:39] Tech companies and the, you know, the, the ones that are basically manipulating everybody. This became the going model. Yeah. Everybody started using, even on the very small business level, using the same kind of, uh, you know, scarcity and, and manipulative approaches. Yeah. So over the last 20 years, um, [00:22:00] This just became the norm, right? [00:22:02] That, yeah, it was just a given. If you were in business, that's the way you had to market and, and, and use technology and, and, and all that and all actually all the tech that I'm using in my business, you know, where I'm trying so hard to create a humane business, the tech, uh, so I'm talking like shopping carts or, or e-learning programs. [00:22:26] It's all built on non-human, uh, principles. Yeah. It's all built on the idea. Let's get as many people in and seldom our crap. Yeah. [00:22:37] Tom: Basically. [00:22:38] Sarah: And it, and it's just really hard to actually use technology and yet doing in a, doing it in a humane way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's really, really hard. [00:22:49] Tom: I think one of the sort of, I guess sort of classically, one of the. [00:22:54] The, the alternatives to that kind of hyper commercial model has in the, in the digital [00:23:00] space, has been the open source world, which is mm-hmm. You know, people building things with people for the people, um, and largely giving them away for free so that everybody can benefit from them. And I think that is probably where, like the solutions will come from. [00:23:15] Um, I understand. Mm-hmm. But, but as you sort of. Highlighted, like even some of those things have gone more in that kind of commercial direction just because that's the way things are done and, and some of those open source projects, as brilliant as they might be, have some sort of like commercial affiliation that sort of funds some of that community work. [00:23:36] And so the way that the projects are led has a bias towards like feeding that like kind of. Parent company or, um, whatever it might be, right? But, but I do think like that the, in pr in principle, the sort of the open source world is probably like the best, um, [00:24:00] place to, to get like a groundswell of, um, kind of bottom up change. [00:24:07] Sarah: I agree. Because it's also. You know, it's the people with the same values who come to create the solution and just give and, you know, know and trust and somewhere the money will come from. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that I have to exploit, um, uh, clients or, or potential, uh, customers. Yeah, [00:24:27] Tom: exactly. Yeah. [00:24:29] Sarah: So, so far we've talked about basically, uh, the win-win of the, the client and the seller, right? [00:24:38] Um, What I talk about and also what you were talking about is also, uh, a third win, which is the win for the planet. Yeah. Um, so talk to us how a humane web, and then maybe you can also talk a little bit about, um, web design, because that's also, uh, part of your expertise. Where is the [00:25:00] planet stand right now and how do we make it a winner as well in this [00:25:06] Tom: equation? [00:25:07] Yeah. So the, the environmental aspect is uh, something that's sort of, I think been left out of the conversation in the digital world largely until quite recently. And, and I think that's probably for a variety of reasons, partly because digital technology is relative relatively new in terms of its impact on our lives. [00:25:28] Um, but also because a lot of the environmental impact is sort of out of sight and out of mind. Um, You don't have like a chimney or an exhaust pipe on your computer and you know, it's sort of, it, it's a lot of, it's behind the scenes and we use terms like virtual, um, and the cloud as if like, the internet doesn't really exist, but it, it is a huge physical system. [00:25:52] You know, telecoms, networks that span the entire planet, um, satellites in space, like thousands of huge data [00:26:00] centers around the world. Billions of devices connected to the networks. So, If you take it as one big machine, it is the biggest machine that humans have ever created. And, and it consumes a huge amount of electricity. [00:26:13] You know, roughly the amount of electricity is the whole of the United Kingdom. Um, if you took it as one thing and the United Kingdom is like kind of one of the 10 biggest economies in the world. So that's, that's pretty crazy when you think about it. And. When you, uh, when you put that in terms of carbon emissions, which is essentially the emissions of producing all of that energy, um, it's, it's estimated generally somewhere between two and 4% of global carbon emissions, which is a lot because like aviation, which a lot of people think, you know, aviation's a serious problem, which it is. [00:26:49] Aviation is about 2% of global cognitions. Global shipping is about 2%. Um, I think steel is about, steel production is about 7%. So when you put, [00:27:00] you know, put that in context of basically the internet being somewhere in the range of two to 4%, um, and growing rapidly, especially with like the advent of, of, of AI and machine learning. [00:27:10] Um, it's, it's something that needs to be talked about. Um, and it hasn't really been talked about much until like the last two, three years really. Yeah, that's [00:27:25] Sarah: completely how I feel. I feel like this has just, yeah, probably emerged. Three years ago for me, where before I was like, well, I'm a virtual, you know, business owner, so I don't create any, any kind of problems. [00:27:40] And, and then starting to realize, okay, so, you know, there's all these different players that actually do, uh, impact how much carbon emissions I have. And, and you know, this was a, a whole. Transitions switching to, uh, a green or a greener host and, [00:28:00] and like making my website lighter and still working on that. [00:28:03] It's, it's like things that. You never think about just uploading, you know, two megabyte pictures on your website. Yeah. And then when you start to realize, wait a minute, they have to be hosted somewhere. And the, uh, and the server obviously runs on electricity, so every time you know this, this is creating carbon emissions. [00:28:24] So, so yeah. Tell us about ethical, um, you know, web design. Like what, what does that. Kind of just maybe a few really pragmatic tips that people can do right now to Yeah. Work on their website on, or at least become aware of that. Yeah. [00:28:44] Tom: You mean specifically from the environmental perspective? Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:28:47] Yeah. So I mean, I think the, the, the way I find most helpful to think about it is that there's, there's a lot of waste on the internet. Um, And waste isn't good for [00:29:00] anybody, like any form of waste. And, but specifically in the internet, that waste generally is if you're wasting data, then you're wasting, you're wasting energy, um, which is bad for the environment, but it also has other. [00:29:14] Kind of commercial impacts and user experience impacts and so on. But that waste can come in a number of forms. Like first of all, like you just mentioned, you know, like having files that are just unnecessarily large, like image files, video files that are either like, maybe they're not required at all, but even if they are required, maybe they're, um, which is larger than they need to be, maybe they're, um, they're not optimized well, maybe they're not in like the most efficient file format. [00:29:42] Um, so. Looking at things like that. Um, things like tracking scripts. Tracking scripts can like be more, they can use up more data sometimes than like an entire, the actual webpage that you see. The stuff behind the scenes. And this comes into like the humane aspect as well. [00:30:00] The stuff behind the scenes that's like harvesting all of your data. [00:30:02] Um, they can actually be more code in there than there is in the actual, like, visible webpage that you're viewing. [00:30:09] Sarah: So you mean like Facebook pixel tracking, that kind of stuff. [00:30:13] Tom: Yeah. All that kind of stuff. All that kind of like ad personalizations, advert, you know, advertising scripts and mm-hmm. Things like that. [00:30:20] Um, wow. And the, and, and, and that's, I, I think that's kind of an interesting one to think about because it's, It's using energy in a number of places and not for your benefit. So you've got basically, like the advertising scripts have to be stored somewhere, like in a data center. Then they have to be sent over the internet, which uses energy to get to you. [00:30:43] Um, then they use energy on your device, which is your electricity that you paid for, um, to like spy on you or manipulate you by like, you know, manipulating the content. Um, and then they take the data, they. They've, they've [00:31:00] harvested about you and then use more energy to ship it back over the internet where it gets stored and analyzed in a data center. [00:31:06] Um, so, so like things like that where there's like, I mean things like that. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a relationship between the environmental and there's like human aspect. But I think if you're designing something, actually being really mindful about tracking scripts is really important. [00:31:22] Cuz sometimes a lot of websites aren't even necessarily doing it. For good reasons. It's just like, oh, I've got a website so I'll stick Google Analytics on it. Um, and Google's really benefiting from that by getting all of that data. But you might not even, some people don't even really look at that data. [00:31:37] So I think things like that are good to think about. Also, from the environmental point of view, like where you host your website, you mentioned moving your website to a hosting provider that has a commitment to powering their data centers with renewable energy. That's kind of a. I'm not gonna say it's an easy win because depends whether like [00:32:00] how easy you find it to actually migrate your website, but um, usually they really help you with that. [00:32:04] Yeah, they normally it will help you like at do the migration. So it can be, it can be a low hanging fruit to reduce the environmental impact. Um, and I think just from a content creation point of view, just sort of being mindful about, um, like creating. Easy user journeys for people so they can find what they're looking for easily not creating unnecessary content, um, just for the sake of like search engines, for example, but actually making sure that your content is really tailored to humans and, and, and you're not doing things like putting in images of like just, um, like stock photography of people pointing at a whiteboard because you feel like you need to fill a space on the page. [00:32:47] You know, just be really mindful about. Like justifying the existence of everything. Um, if you can justify why it's there, then, you know, great. Um, but if you can't, then, um, obviously if [00:33:00] in doubt, leave it out. Um, it's sort of a simple mantra to the identifying and eliminating waste. [00:33:08] Sarah: It's so interesting because basically also here you're saying, let's go back to simplicity and, and basics and. [00:33:15] You know, simple design rather than cluttered, obnoxious, you know, too much content design. [00:33:22] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that's e just sort of, again, going back to the human perspective, that can be much easier on the mind as well. Yeah. Um, it's [00:33:31] Sarah: relaxing. It's more relaxing, right. Than Yeah. Having much content [00:33:37] Tom: on it all the, all the time. [00:33:38] Exactly. I think, you know, there's a lot of problems with just sort of overstimulation, um, On the internet. So, so I think that there's a, again, another synergy between sort of designing for the environment and designing for humans there. [00:33:52] Sarah: Yeah. You, uh, just a minute ago, you, you kind of addressed ai, uh, [00:34:00] And, and I, um, there's another great article that you actually published with a conversation between you and chat c p t about, um, the impact of ai, uh, to the environment and, and social, uh, impact and all of that. [00:34:17] Um, yeah, tell us a little bit about that. Uh, in, in, just in general, how AI impacts all of what we just [00:34:26] Tom: discussed. Yeah, so I, it was, I thought it would be really interesting just to sort of a ask an AI about the potential risks of AI and see, to see what it came back with. Um, I thought maybe I'll learn something, maybe it would teach me something. [00:34:44] I don't know. Um, maybe it will be biased. Um, um, I was actually like sort of pleasantly surprised that its answers seemed quite thorough and quite. Quite honest, um, in identifying that there is [00:35:00] like potentially a huge energy cost to AI in terms of just how much computing, um, power it needs, um, both to train the models and run the models. [00:35:11] Um, I think it gave me a figure of to train G P D three required, I think 500. CPU years, which is effectively like running a cpu, running a, running a computer for 500 years to train one model. Um, so it was, it was quite honest in, in that it did also highlight that there's potential benefits, um, from an environmental point of view. [00:35:33] If you can use that AI then to help humanity solve. Environmental problems and make other things more efficient, which I think is absolutely true. Um, but it also highlighted that the flip side of that is that it's all about what we choose to do with it. Like you could choose to use AI to like, to, to extract more fossil fuels from, from the ground, which is what the fossil fuel companies are using it for. [00:35:57] Um, and in fact, there was a big conference, I [00:36:00] think run by Amazon. Um, Specifically about that, like inviting all the fossil fuel companies to, to see what, how they could, how they could like, fi, discover and extract more oil. Um, wow. So, so that, that's kind of interesting that it, it like chat, G B T itself highlighted that. [00:36:19] Um, but then it also, like I asked it about sort of social impacts and it did, it did sort of, Quite honestly, like, explain that like, yeah, there's potential risk to people's jobs, um, in terms of being replaced by ai. There's risks of bias. There's risks of, um, big temp big tech companies, um, having more and more power because essentially like whoever has control of the AI has more power over a society and the, and the potential to like manipulate public opinion and, and potentially even influence democracy, which is something that it did. [00:36:57] Bring up. So, um, [00:37:00] yeah, I think it was quite well rounded I felt, in terms of what it highlighted. And of course, it's not really a, it's not a person. And that's the thing that it's like really hard to like get your head around when you start doing something, like trying to have a conversation with it. It's like, well, hard to like [00:37:13] Sarah: it or dislike it, you know? [00:37:15] Yeah, [00:37:16] Tom: right. I've, I've set myself a rule that I'm like, when if I did, you know, like when I did that, To not say thank you cause it sounds really simple, but as soon as, but you ask a question and you get an answer back that sounds like a human wrote you a message back. Right. And it's really easy to slip into that thing of thinking there's a person on the other side when there's not. [00:37:37] Um, and I don't know if you've seen the film X Mcna. Um, I haven't. It, it's, it, I mean, I think it's, I only watched it earlier this year because it sort of felt like this is the time in history where, The science fiction is suddenly catching up. Yeah. Like, like real life is mirroring science fiction and [00:38:00] Yeah. [00:38:00] It's, it's a film about, and like an, an AI that's been developed and um, and humans building relationships with it and the, and the boundaries between what's human and what's not being blurred and how that. That's a slippery slope, basically. Um, I won't spoil it for you, but Okay. But I, yeah, it's a, i I, it's a, it's a fascinating and very well made film, um, on this topic. [00:38:30] Yeah, [00:38:31] Sarah: I'll look it up and I'll definitely link to, to that article, the interview with, um, chat G p t, um, as we're kind of. Coming to close here. I I'm, I'm just, I always feel like, oh, so it's such a heavy topic. Right? And, um, when we started recording, um, offline, I told you I tried just to focus on the positive things. [00:38:58] So let's, let's do that [00:39:00] here as well. How do you see the future of Humane Web and, and what can we do to, you know, kind of counter effect the big tech and. The big companies and, and even if it's just in our own little bubble, but at least we're creating that vision and who knows what will come out of it, but at least we're living in that vision already. [00:39:25] What can we do? And, and then Yeah. Uh, from there, how do you see it evolve? Yeah, [00:39:30] Tom: sure. I, I think the main thing we can do is first, first of all, like stop and think about like what we. What we need as humans and how the technology can serve us, rather than the standard model now, which is sort of like, how do, how do we serve the technology? [00:39:49] Um, and you, you know, you spoke about it earlier about how. We go down this route of like, now there's like an established model of like how the [00:40:00] internet works and how the business models on the internet work being like those big tech companies. And so there's just a natural inclination to mirror that and just copy it. [00:40:10] And I think the, the best thing we can do is actually just stop and think, look inside ourselves about like, what would it look like if it was really serving my needs and serving the needs of of others. And actually just have the confidence to try to do things differently and not just copy the, kind of the standard template of how things are done these days. [00:40:32] Um, and I think if more and more people do that and. And importantly, more and more people share that and tell the story of how they're thinking about it and why they're doing things differently. Um, I think that's really powerful cuz then it can create that sort of like ground up change. Um, both in the, the way that people are thinking about the internet as well as the way that people are interacting with it. [00:40:58] Sarah: Yeah, 100%. [00:41:00] And, and that's definitely what we're trying to do here, and I know you are as well, and, and. You might think, because what we're seeing is the big tech everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. But the more you kind of are in these circles, the more other little circles you discover and you're like, wow, there's actually people like us everywhere. [00:41:21] Yeah, exactly. So that always gives me hope. I'm like, well, two years ago I didn't know about Tom Greenwood, and now I know that you've been working on this for years and years, and so. You know, there's, there's millions of us and that, that gives me hope. So I, I, uh, I couldn't agree more with you to just kind of. [00:41:41] You said stop and, um, kind of step into the confidence of doing things differently. And I think yeah, that is key because it is scary to, you know, not do what everybody else is doing. Um, So, yeah, if, even if it's just, you know, for your website, [00:42:00] and that's where again, uh, I'm gonna go back to my website and, and check that I don't have any kind of tracking code in there because Yeah. [00:42:08] I, I don't need it. Right. So, um, definitely, uh, yeah, [00:42:13] Tom: to start exactly, start from where you are and, and, and ask yourself questions about like, what it is that you are doing. If you are creating things on the internet, um, and. And just see where it, see where it leads, see what other people are doing. Yeah. Um, I mean, even on the tracking script one, like there are alternatives. [00:42:32] Like there's one called Plausible, for example, um, which is like, it gives you some data about how, like how many people are using your website, what, like what countries they come from, what web browsers they use, what pages they visit. But it is completely anonymized. It's very, very lightweight, energy efficient. [00:42:51] Um, Script. So there are some like kind of, there are alternatives to some of these like big tech [00:43:00] solutions that are actually trying to balance the sort of the human and the environmental side as well as providing some useful functionality it for when people do need it. Um, yeah. So yeah, it's worth looking for those as well. [00:43:12] Thank [00:43:13] Sarah: you. I, I would really encourage listeners also to sign up to your newsletter, so please share with us where people can find you and your newsletter and all your other good work. [00:43:24] Tom: Yeah, sure. So the newsletter, I'm, I'm very excited. This, um, just past 6,000 subscribers yesterday. Um, it's, it's called Kii Green. [00:43:34] Um, if you Google Kii Green Newsletter, you, you should find it. Um, and, and it's basically a monthly newsletter about like, Greening the internet, um, but in a very holistic way. So, you know, we talk about things like humane web as well. Um, and we started it about three years ago thinking that nobody would be interested. [00:43:53] So to suddenly like now be like, oh wow, there's like 6,000 people subscribe to this. That for me is like a source of optimism. [00:44:00] Um, again, that that [00:44:01] Sarah: means that there's all these people everywhere, right? And saying, yeah, me too. I'm in. [00:44:06] Tom: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Exactly. The, the, like, I think sometimes we. We don't realize that there's a lot of people out there that are thinking like we are thinking, or, or maybe they're thinking differently from we're thinking, but they're like, they really care about making things better. [00:44:20] Um, and we just don't know that they're out, they're out there. Um, right. So when we have things that kind of bring these voices together, I think that's really powerful. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, so the Curiously Green Newsletter, um, I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn, that's Tom Greenwood who runs Whole Grain Digital. [00:44:36] There's lots of Tom Greenwoods, but I'm, I'm, I'm that one. Um, And I also have a, um, I also have a, a personal newsletter about sustainable business on CK called Oxymoron, um, which you can look up on ck Um, yeah, so I guess they're the. They're, they're the key places to find me. And you have a book, right? I do have a book, yeah. [00:44:59] Yeah. I always [00:45:00] forget to mention that. Yeah. There you go. So I always have a book, um, about sustainable web design called Sustainable Web Design. Um, you can, you can get it direct from publisher, uh, which is a book, or it's now available as of about two weeks ago in a lot of bookshops. Um, so you could find it on Amazon and other kind of online bookstores as well. [00:45:22] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I always ask one last question here to every, uh, guest, and that is, what are you grateful for today, this week, this season? [00:45:36] Tom: To be honest, I, I am grateful for the fact that like we live in a world where we can have these sorts of conversations. You know, like we have the freedom to think and, and share ideas and, you know, even if not everything is. [00:45:52] Perfect. And not everything's always trending in the direction we wanted to. Like the fact that we have the opportunity to try and like do [00:46:00] something about it and connect with, with other people. Trying to do so is, is, is a wonderful thing, um, which I'm very grateful for. [00:46:09] Sarah: Yeah. I agree and I'm grateful for the work you are doing and and your team, so [00:46:17] Tom: thank you. [00:46:17] Sarah: Let's keep it up. Yep. So much. Thanks so much for being here, Tom. I hope you feel motivated and I. Inspired to create a humane web together. I highly recommend you sign up to Tom's newsletter. You'll find You can also, as Tom suggested to connect with him on LinkedIn. You find the show notes of this slash 1 67, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Business Manifesto, [00:47:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and Selling like we're human. [00:47:08] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.
47:27 6/30/23
The Self Employed Business Ecosystem
In today's episode, we have the honor of speaking with Jeffrey Shaw, an author and advocate for self-employed business owners. Jeffrey is not only the author of the "LINGO" and "The Self-Employed Life," but also the host of the popular podcast with over two-million downloads, and the founder of the Self-Employed Business Institute. In this episode, we delve into the concept of the Self-Employed Ecosystem, encompassing personal development, business strategies, and daily habits. We explore the Vision Paradox, Jeffrey's unique "Hug Marketing" approach, the power of trust in something bigger than oneself, and the essential daily habits that help us navigate the uncontrollable. Let’s uncover the keys to success in the self-employed world. In this episode, we talk about: The Self-Employed Ecosystem which includes Personal Development, Business Strategies and Daily Habits The Vision Paradox: how to not self-sabotage and be disappointed when we don’t achieve our goals Jeffrey’s ‘Hug Marketing’ approach Trusting in something bigger than you and other daily habits that help us manage the uncontrollable [00:00:00] Sarah: Hey, Jeffrey, so good to have you back on the podcast, even if it's a different version of the podcast. I'm so happy to [00:00:09] Jeffrey intro: have you here. I'm glad to be here with you as always. Thank you. [00:00:12] Sarah: Thanks. Um, I'm so excited for this conversation. Uh, you're coming out with a, you came out with a second book, um, so we're gonna mainly focus on that, but. [00:00:25] You're kind of like a, a crowd favorite here at Humane Marketing cuz I talk about you and my programs, um, and just this idea of the lingo and the language and ideal clients. It's a big topic for us. So, um, yeah, I wanna kind of give that credit as well and, and just, uh, remind everybody who hasn't read the lingo book, uh, yet. [00:00:48] That is also from Jeffrey Shaw. So, Anything you wanna just quickly say about lingo before we mm-hmm. Maybe also how it's still relevant and related of course, to your second book. [00:01:00] [00:01:00] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. It's been interesting, uh, particularly as an author and I, I know you can appreciate this too, that. Uh, so after my second book was out, it was out for quite a number of months and I was heavily promoting it and talking about it, and of course, so excited about the, the, the topic of the self-employed life and all the aspects of it. [00:01:16] Uh, my editor of Lingo, uh, at one point, she sent a message to me, said, uh, have you forgotten about your firstborn? Because I realized that I was so focused on talking about the new thing. You know, I, I had set aside talking about lingo, and that's one thing, I mean, lesson learned for those of us that are in business for ourselves is that, uh, we are visionaries and creators and often we can move on to the next thing and not necessarily integrate the previous. [00:01:41] Um, but since she said that and pointed out to me, I've been much more, uh, aware of the integration between the two because, you know, really, and in so many ways, I've actually gained respect from my book lingo. In the importance of working with your ideal clients, and maybe it's a little bit of a, you know, post [00:02:00] pandemic effect in that none of us wanna waste time anymore, and I, at, at the core of working with our ideal clients is the benefit of, well, I guess it's, you know, you get to choose that. [00:02:12] The benefit is to you as an individual for me. The number one reason I only want to work with my ideal clients is because of the satisfaction I receive watching people, uh, their businesses grow exponentially. Mm-hmm. And to me, the only way your business really grows exponentially is if you work only with your ideal clients and you're not wasting your time trying to. [00:02:34] Prove your value to people or trying to make people happy that you will never fully make happy. Um, and I just feel like there's somewhat of an emotional response to the, the time in which we've all been struggling through for the last few years to say, I don't wanna waste my life hours on anything other than what brings me joy and what impacts people. [00:02:54] And I think it's, there's more reason now than ever to read lingo and to really [00:03:00] focus on only attracting and working with your ideal clients. [00:03:03] Sarah: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Um, I, I just recently put out on, on the blog, um, a long, really long, um, blog post about, uh, humane Marketing words, and it reminded me of lingo and I'm like, went back to certain passages of it because, Of the importance of words. [00:03:23] Right. And in humane marketing, it's all about words. I, I tell people, look, you can use similar tactics, but if you use nicer and kinder words, then that makes all the difference. Mm-hmm. And so that also that, um, Part of lingo, yes, there's the ideal client, but then there's the importance of language, right? [00:03:45] The title and gives it all away. It's like the importance of the language your clients, uh, speak is, is so key. And, um, as, as we're gonna go into you, you have, um, your. Language as well that [00:04:00] you then use in, in the new book and where you talk about marketing. Um, so you came up with a new term for marketing, which I love. [00:04:07] So let's get, let's get into the, the new book, right? Yeah. Um, well [00:04:12] Jeffrey intro: at least stay with what you said for a moment. Cause that's so important for the Humane marketing society or community that you've built is, um, the energy of words. You know, if I could go back, as we always do, right, we always want to, you know, think about what we would add differently to the. [00:04:26] Books we've written, and if I could add to lingo, and perhaps at some point there will be a second version of it, a revised version of it, which we are, I mean, I kicking around the idea of, because really one of the things I'd like to stress, more importantly it's in the book, but I think I'd like to stress more, is the energy of the words, right? [00:04:43] It's one thing to use the right words to speak the lingo of your ideal customers, but I think also we need, and especially in the world of humane marketing, Really what you need to focus on is the energy of the words, because you're right, you can be saying the exact same thing, but the energy by which you're [00:05:00] communicating it with has everything to do with how it comes across. [00:05:03] And if I could say there's been one really huge, significant difference in business over my 40 year career is that people today and have for a number of years now make a decision based on how they energetically feel about a business more than ever before. Right. It used to be, or something I say in my keynote is that it's a bit of a wake up call that we no longer get hired for being the best at what we do. [00:05:30] We get hired because people like who we are. Right. And that is the biggest change because I've been in business, you know, over my 40 years. In the eighties and nineties you get hired cuz you were the best in your field. At that time. I was 100% a portrait photographer, affluent families. And I got hired because I was considered to be the best photographer for those families. [00:05:52] Not the best photographer amongst all photographers, but I was probably the best photographer for affluent families. I really understood them. I understood how to craft the [00:06:00] artwork for their homes. Um, I used to listen to my clients talk about other best qualified people they hired, like their interior designers, their landscape designers, and they would talk about how difficult they were to work with, but they were the, they were the name to have, right? [00:06:17] I. You won't get away with that today. Mm-hmm. Pe. PE today, people don't hire you because you're considered the best in your field. They also have to feel good about doing business with you. There's an energy that you're communicating in your humane marketing that makes people want to do business with you. [00:06:33] They will, to some degree. Excuse that you're new. And that you're, you're new in business, you're new in this skill, skillset, or that you may not be considered the best in your field, but they like you better than the other people in your field, and they will do business. That is the biggest change in business I've seen in my 40 years is that. [00:06:52] We're getting hired because of how people feel about us, and we see, we see this the opposite of it in big companies all the time. How many think about how many [00:07:00] brands people are walking away from because the c e O said something stupid, or you found out that the leadership team was not treating the employees well, or you found out about the political ambitions of a company and how quickly people that disagree with those feelings abandon the brand. [00:07:19] It happens so quickly. Mm-hmm. I, I love, and I know you would too, for your community of humane marketers, like, I love doing business in a world where people are making decisions, whether work with us based on how they feel about us. That, that to me is exciting. [00:07:33] Sarah: Yeah. And it, it really shows how the emotional intelligence of people and the consciousness has, you know, really increased over the last year. [00:07:42] Yeah. So not year, years. So, Totally agree with you. It's this emotional connection that it is almost like there should be a book just about that, right? It's like, how do you create an emotional connection? What I say is bring more of you, uh, to your [00:08:00] marketing, right? It's this humanness and, and yet, I was just in a networking event this morning and it feels like everybody is doing the same spiel. [00:08:08] You know? It's like you just come off, yeah, take off the mask. Just be you. You know how weird and awkward that might be. [00:08:17] Jeffrey intro: And you're, you're a podcast host and I'm sure you get pitched plenty. And I, there are these trends to the pitches that come in that all start off the exact same way. And I'm wondering, okay, who's the latest guru who led a course on how to pitch yourself as a podcast guest? [00:08:31] And everybody's following it verbatim. There's nothing human about that. I mean, literally, people have to realize that, like for people like you and I as podcasts, I get about 24 pitches a day. Yeah. More than half of them will start off exactly the same way. And, you know, I listened to episode so-and-so, or then the six months from now that that rhythm will, that style will change. [00:08:54] And I know there's somebody out there that everybody seems to be following the advice of. Mm-hmm. And they just, it just, [00:09:00] you don't stand out that way. Mm-hmm. It always comes back to the term. I use Sarah to describe how I. The, the internal feeling I experience when I know that I'm coming from my auth, authentic self. [00:09:13] And my truth is I refer to it as dropping in. Yeah. I, I just, I have found in myself and I encourage everyone to kind of dig for that place in themselves where they can, they drop into their truth. And stop doing things in business because everybody else is doing it that way. Stop doing things in business because somebody told you statistically that's what works. [00:09:35] Or this, you know, listen to it. I'm not saying ignore it, but use or have a help or have a filter of discernment so you can decide, does that work for you? Does it feel right to you? And then have a place in yourself that you can drop into to say, this is me. This is who, what I stand for. This is who I, who I want to represent in business. [00:09:58] And then market in [00:10:00] that way, speak to people that way. And I feel like the, the energy of the truth comes through so clearly that people want to do business with you. Yeah. [00:10:09] Sarah: And I, and I feel like that's it. We dropped right into the book. Right. Because that's what, what your book is all about. It's, it's, it's about this mix between, and in, in a way, my book is kind of similar. [00:10:22] It's a mix between personal development and, and business strategy. And you bring in the. The daily habits and I, I think one of the daily habits is trust. And, and that's what this dropping in is. And, and in a way, dropping in is also kind of tuning out the rest, you know? Yes. It's like dropping in and you're just like, no, I don't wanna hear anybody [00:10:42] Jeffrey intro: else. [00:10:43] And that's, that is true. It is really hard. It is really hard. And that is, again, I, I always say I teach as I teach my students in the Self-Employed Business Institute. I say all the time, I teach from being in the trenches. Right, because that's all I know. I've, I've been self-employed my entire life. It's the only world I've, I've never [00:11:00] had a traditional job. [00:11:01] I've never received a paycheck from anybody. Right. So I teach from in the trenches and I try to drop into the truth of that so that I can really help our students in the business institute. Um, and that, what you just said and described really, Is so true of being self-employed in that it is such a duality in that, like I said, don't, don't shut off what you're the possibilities of learning and what you see other people doing, but you do need this, what I refer to as a filter of discernment so you can filter out what's useless to you. [00:11:37] Keep in a reservoir, what could be useful to you, and then drop into yourself. So, which, like you said, you're kind of shutting off everything else, so you drop into yourself to decide what has value to you and what you wanna do with it, and what your truth is. I, I don't think it is possible, particularly in a world where we're inundated with so much information, um, and [00:12:00] nor would I recommend. [00:12:01] Shutting off the information that comes in. I think it's very, you know, you want to, you want to expose yourself to as much as you can, but you do need a filter of discernment to decide what has value to you and then drop into your truth and how you most want to communicate to people and what your authentic truth is. [00:12:18] Sarah: Yeah. The thing is, and I'm sure you've seen that as well, and it's your experience maybe as well, seeing others doing that is like, if we go into business, we just immediately wanna go into the doing and the marketing and the Instagram posts and all of that. Right? And so what you are saying, and I'm, I'm kind of saying as well, is like, well, the personal development part, which is. [00:12:44] Finding out what your truth is, finding out your values and your, you talk about personal power or, um, yeah. Similar words like that as well is just so important and yet most people just wanna skip ahead and go to the next thing. [00:12:59] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. [00:13:00] We're, I actually have a, I have a podcast on my own show, uh, that I'll be recording in a couple of hours and, um, and I, I, in the intro, which I was working on a, a bit ago, that. [00:13:12] Because I've really been thinking about this a lot. I use the term ceilings a lot. Mm-hmm. And I've realized that I've used the word ceilings to replace limited mindsets where most people are talking about limited mindsets. I've come to call them ceilings because I actually like, again, coming from that inde trenches approach, I like the realistic feeling of a ceiling, because especially if everybody else is gonna talk about them as limited mindsets, the more often we hear a term, the more often it starts becoming white noise. [00:13:38] Right. Um, I think that's what's happened with the topic of fear. You know, fear has become this. Fear and imposter syndrome are two that have now become such big buckets. Everything that everybody experiences gets thrown into those buckets. Oh, this is, you know, I have fear. It's like, are you sure you have fear? [00:13:57] Right. I'm working, I'm working on my next book, which will be out the [00:14:00] fall of 2024, and it's about self-doubt for high achievers. Mm-hmm. And one of the things I really challenge in this book is the notion that, People just write, oh, I have imposter syndrome. And I'm like, are you sure it's imposter syndrome or is it self-doubt? [00:14:14] There's a difference, you know, but it's amaz. Every time I bring up the topic of self-doubt, people compare it to imposter syndrome. I'm like, to me, there is a very distinguishable difference between them, which I talk about in the book. Don't wanna quite reveal too much about it yet, but, um, there's a different, but the problem is, is that these, these, these things we talk about become like rote language, fear, imposter syndrome. [00:14:37] And the more we talk about them, it becomes white noise. And I think that's kind of what's happened with limited mindsets, right? You know, people talk limited mindsets, it just toss around. And I'm like, well, let's be real about limited mindsets. There are ceilings and a ceiling is like something that's sitting on or close to the top of your head that you're not. [00:14:53] You know, you're, you have no space above you for, so the reason why both you and I have this see such [00:15:00] importance on this, the work of personal development is I refer to personal development as raising the ceiling the way, the only way that I know for anyone to be truly be successful and actionable and applying action and business strategies. [00:15:16] The only way I know that those things can be successful is if you create the space. Above your head through personal development for those things to work. So I'll give you a sp a specific idea. One of the ceilings I talk about all the time, uh, to my students is the deserving ceiling. Mm-hmm. I don't care how much hard work you put into growing your business, I. [00:15:39] And how much strategy you apply and how many seminars you you attend, and how many, you know, new and latest social media trends, you hop out. I don't care how many of anything you apply, if you don't raise the ceiling by which of which you think you deserve, you're not going to get more. Right. If you still have a deserving [00:16:00] ceiling on top of your head that you only deserve this much abundance in life, if you only deserve this much goodness, if you only deserve this much money, if you're hung up on that, that ceiling, I don't care how much work you put in, you've capped off by, by it being a ceiling, you've already capped off the results. [00:16:18] The only way you can make those strategies and the effort you apply work is you have to first do the personal development work to really know you deserve more, and then you've created this space and then there's a place for all that hard work to fit. And that is why, to me, personal development is just critically important, uh, as a step before the hard work. [00:16:41] Sarah: Yeah. Oh yeah. I think you really talked about a, a topic that is Yeah, like whenever I talk about the P of pricing, which really has to do with money and deserving and re receiving, right? That's like one of the most, uh, listened to episodes. So, uh, this [00:17:00] one here, this conversation is on, is, uh, under the P of Personal Power. [00:17:05] Which I feel like is very fitting as well, because basically, um, what you're saying is we need to step into our personal power and, and, and then Yeah. Be ready to receive. And, and, and that's what personal development is all about in my opinion as well. Right. And, and then really also accepting that. Or kind of like realizing just because we are stepping into that power, that does not gonna mean that we're gonna abuse our power, but that we are using it in a, in a nice and gentle and humane way. [00:17:41] Right? [00:17:42] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. I think that's, that's so important that you just brought that up. Cause I, yeah, in the book lingo actually, Uh, qualify right in the beginning that this is not about manipulation, right? Understanding someone's lingo is not about using that power for evil. It's not meant to be. Uh, but it's so powerful that I felt like I [00:18:00] needed to describe that because it's powerful. [00:18:02] Because if you really speak someone's lingo, it's like you're sharing a secret language and it's how you know to really develop, as I teach in the book, the system of speaking someone's lingo and getting someone, uh, to, you know, attracting your ideal clients. Um, to me, you know, whether it is to what degree we get to know our clients so that we can speak their lingo or, uh, you know, the business strategies that, again, it all comes back down to the energy, right? [00:18:32] Because if you do things with a clean energy, In a good intent, they will feel the energy of that. Mm-hmm. If you're coming from a place of manipulation, you have to believe, yes, some people could be fooled, but in the long run, that's not gonna work for you. But I, I agree with you that we really, so much of it comes down to the, the energy of our actions. [00:18:54] Uh, what's always something that's always surprised me, and people get this when I, when I describe it to them, Is [00:19:00] that if you are not confident in your ability to serve people, You actually have to be very subtle in how you are trying to sell your services because if you're not confident, you're not exuding enough energy of a con of confidence. [00:19:15] What's always been interesting to me with, particularly with my students in the Business Institute, because we work so much on. Their confidence, their strategies that I, and, and really we work a lot on their clarity. You know, getting people really clear on what they stand for, uh, internally, and then getting them clear on how to communicate that to the outer world with clear brand messaging and clear communication. [00:19:39] What happens is their clarity gives them confidence, and the confidence enables them to be a little more assertive. It's amazing when, if you are so. Energetically clear and confident that you can help somebody. It's amazing how direct you can be. Like you can, you can, and [00:20:00] I, I find myself often in a situation when I, I meet someone who I so wholeheartedly believe should join the Self-Employed Business Institute. [00:20:07] Cause I think that we're just perfect for them. We can really help them. I find that I can be pretty direct in saying, I really believe this is perfect for you. Like I, I really, I can, I can see with all my heart that this is exactly gonna create the change that you wanna create in six months and really step forward and they receive it so cleanly. [00:20:26] Mm-hmm. Where if you said those exact same words, coming from a less sincere place, it would come across as pushy and they would sense it and they would sense it. So it has everything to do with how. Clear you are on your intentions. If that, if, if, if your intention and and sincere belief in your ability to serve isn't clear, they will feel that. [00:20:48] Sarah: Yeah. It also means, you know, humane marketing is all about giving the power back to the people and respecting. The intelligence [00:21:00] of human beings. I think that's what this is really is. And that's what we've seen, um, over the last few years has been happened. Like. People have been treated as if they were stupid. [00:21:13] Quite honest, a lot of times. Um, you [00:21:16] Jeffrey intro: know, well, we were told as marketers many years ago to market to the age of a five year old. Yeah. Literally, that was the advice, what, 10, 20 years ago Nowadays, I, I, I, Sarah, you're one of the few people that actually I think really get that. People, consumers today are so sophisticated. [00:21:32] Yeah. Like we have to stop dumbing down. Exactly right. Do is it, is it a noisy world? Absolutely. But here's been this, this, here's been the ridiculous strategy, right? Yes. It's a noisy marketing world, so the way your typical, you know, more aggressive marketers will tell you as well, it's such a noisy world. [00:21:51] You need to dumb down your messages to the degree of a five-year-old so that you cut through the noise. And here's my philosophy, [00:22:00] right? And here's my fly, which I think philosophy, which I think you'll agree with is, is yeah, it is a noisy world. And people I refer to p, you know, I jokingly say consumers today are, and myself and included, but we're also, as business owners, we're consumers. [00:22:13] Consumers today are attention snobs. And we should be, because we have so many choices as to where to put our attention, that we've just become super selective as to where we put our attention. So don't dumb down your content. What you have to do is make your marketing compelling enough that it's attention worthy. [00:22:33] Netflix has no problem getting people's attention because they're creating content that is attention worthy. And I, I actually in, in the self-employed life, my book, I refer to it as the Netflix test. Imagine your marketing is so compelling. That two people are sitting side by side at the, so on a sofa watching a Netflix movie, and one of those two people has a laptop sitting on their lap. [00:22:58] And at the same time, they're watching the [00:23:00] Netflix movies. They're pro producing websites for your area of specialty, and they come across your marketing, your website, and it's so compelling. They turn the laptop to the person next to them and say, well, check this out. Isn't this cool? All right. I've done it and I'll bet many listeners have done just that same thing that's passing the Netflix test when what you're, when your marketing is so compelling, you have taken attention away from somebody's watching their Netflix to turn the laptop to the person next to them. [00:23:29] That's how you don't dumb down your content. In fact, I'd say it's the other way around. Yeah. Make it so in intellectually compelling that people are hooked. Right. And they wanna [00:23:38] Sarah: know. And of course, again, it depends on your ideal client, but I don't want to work with dumb clients, you know? And, and that sounds harsh, but it's true. [00:23:48] I call my people deep thinkers for a reason. Right. It, it's, I want to Yeah. Work with people who think deeply about things. And so that brings us back to [00:24:00] the. Ideal client conversations. So obviously if you're dumbing down your content and your marketing and hoping to attract deep thinkers like yourself, well then there's something that is not going to [00:24:12] Jeffrey intro: work. [00:24:12] Yeah. You also just said something that I really wanted to point out that was so be because it was so natural to you, you just said it without even realizing it, and you refer to your. Tho those that you serve as my people. Yeah. And there's, there's energy, there's energy that I do the same thing. And I try to encourage other people that if you're coming from a place of humane marketing or as I refer to it in my podcast and in my world as doing business with a soul, right? [00:24:35] Mm-hmm. We have very, we have very aligned goals. Uh, if you are amongst people that want to do humane marketing, Think about those that you serve as your people, not an audience. Right, right. An audience is sterile. Yeah. It's, it's, you don't, I love and I totally have embraced the idea of referring to, I even to, even to my speaking rep. [00:24:55] I will tell her, it's like, cuz in the speaking world, you so now to talk about audiences [00:25:00] and I don't, I tell my speaking rep. Um, are those my, when she proposes an idea an an event to me, I'm like, are those my people? Yeah, let's talk about whether they're my people, because I've told her I only wanna speak in front of my people. [00:25:11] Regardless of how much an organization is willing to pay me, I'm not cuz I've done it, I'm not willing to stand on a stage for the biggest amount of money and those aren't my people. I hate it. It's not satisfying and I'm not doing anything of a significance. It's not worth it. No, it's not. I only wanna be in front of my people. [00:25:28] I will speak for free if I have to in front of, not ideal, but on occasion I will. Because if it's a room of my people, they're gonna be joining as students in the self-employed business institute. And that's, I can make more money that way than I ever will as a speaking gig. So I just energetically, I think there's such a big difference at looking at the people you serve as your people as opposed to an audience. [00:25:52] Cuz the energy of an audience is us. Me and them where? Oh, up [00:25:58] Sarah: you one target audience. [00:26:00] You know, [00:26:00] Jeffrey intro: it's like, oh, we won't go there. This is my target audience. Right. That's why you referred in the intro about my, or as we were speaking earlier, you were speaking about, you know, my transference of, of how I look at marketing. [00:26:11] Right. I literally, Referred to it as, we need to stop saying target marketing and let's think about it. Hug marketing. Yeah. Hug marketing is the system I, let's talk about hug marketing. Whichever. Hug Marketing is the system I teach because I wanted so desperately to turn around the energy of, of marketing being referred to as a target marketing. [00:26:30] And you know what? Here's the thing. In its simplest forms, target marketing doesn't. Work because if people feel targeted, they back up. And if you're referring to them as a target market, you're only kidding yourself if you're thinking they don't feel targeted again because they're feeling the energy of it. [00:26:49] And if you're energetically thinking of those people that you're targeting as a target market, they will feel that way. Yeah. So that's why, that's why I came up with the whole concept of hug marketing, [00:27:00] because the people I work with similar to your own, your own people, is. I work with, you know, my, my people are people that want, that, want to do business. [00:27:10] They want clients, but they want to acquire clients in a way that feels good market. Typically, target marketing feels creepy to them. So target marketing from a visual perspective, if you can imagine this is that. It's a series of concentric circles. So instead of the typical marketing funnel, which visually also has a bad energy to it because a marketing funnel in its traditional form is wide at the top, openhearted welcoming at the top, and it gets more and more narrow to do what? [00:27:41] Squeeze people through a small hole at the bottom. Mm-hmm. And then don't you love the marketing words like tripwire, like. Could it to, could there be a worse [00:27:48] Sarah: energy? Oh, that's another one. I need to add that to my glossary. I mean, [00:27:51] Jeffrey intro: could there not be a worse word for the energy of marketing to refer to things as trip wires? [00:27:58] These things are astonishing to [00:28:00] me. It's like, who came up with these things? Yeah. Um, trip wire. That one just really kills me. So what I did is I, I instead. Referred to it as a series of concentric circles, so that we look at the people in the outermost circles, what I refer to as lurkers. So lurkers are the people, uh, that you, that are watching you from afar that you didn't even know they're there, or you don't know that they, they're names, right? [00:28:26] They're people that are watching you on social media. They're reading your content, they're reading your blog posts, they're listening to your podcast, right? They're lurkers, right? And it's. Lurkers are the most overlooked, important process of client acquisition. And you'll know mo more in a moment as we go through this, but it's, it's, I always say it's like, fix this first, the first thing I wanna see people fix is to build out a broader, uh, portfolio of lurkers. [00:28:54] People that are. Listening and watching what you're doing, and you just don't know it yet. [00:29:00] And they'll play out as being a very important part because the next step is, um, once they, then they become curious, right? So you have to make your content and everything you're doing compelling enough, they become curious. [00:29:12] So they go from just kind of watching from afar to leaning in. They become curious. Once they become curious, then they become engaged. At this point, they're commenting, they're corresponding, they're reaching out, right? There's a level of engagement going on, but they are still in control of how. Close. [00:29:31] They're getting to you at this point. The next step is they become connected. And this is why it's so important is connected. And this, this should never be taken for granted because at this point, somebody's handing over the baton, they're, maybe they're giving you their email address, they're opting into your, uh, lead magnets. [00:29:50] You're, uh, which lead magnets are one of the few energetic words I'm okay with. By the way, I call them signposts. Yeah, signposts. Yep. Yeah. Um, and I like lead [00:30:00] magnet as long as it's like you're a leader and you're leading them to what's gonna help 'em, right. It's like you're grabbing somebody by their hand. [00:30:05] Right. So I'm okay with lead magnet because to me, I look at it as like, you're grabbing somebody by the hand and, and, uh, they are willingly, you know, following along. But connected is such an important stage so that the next step, of course, is once you become connected, you build a solid relationship. The goal is they become a client. [00:30:21] But here's to circle back. Here's why those lurkers are so important. One of the biggest problems I find in businesses is they're trying to convert from too small of a number, and that's why they're not getting as many clients as they want. So if you have, if you've captured the eyes and ears of a really broad number of lurkers, Only a small percentage of them are going to become curious, and even a smaller percentage of those are going to become engaged. [00:30:47] And an even smaller percentage of those are going to connect. And even a smaller percent, much, much smaller percentage of those are gonna become clients. So if you think about it from reverse engineering, if you want to increase your volume of clients, You [00:31:00] may have to reverse engineer and start with the, the strategies that instead of increasing just your strategies as a client acquisition, you may need, may need to back up and increase your strategies for how are you gaining eyes and ears of people in the first place. [00:31:15] Mm-hmm. Um, which may feel like it's contradictory to ideal clients, cuz you're throwing a broad net. But it's, it's not because for, you have to start with the lurkers and then make them curious and they filter their way down. And your marketing, of course, and your messaging is, is filtering out your non-ideal clients so that you end up with, in the final stage of, of acquiring clients that they, they are your ideal clients. [00:31:39] We're not done at that self, [00:31:40] Sarah: we're selecting themselves. Right. You're not filtering them out. You have to, they're they're filtering [00:31:46] Jeffrey intro: themselves. Correct. And they have to be self. That's good. That's good. You know, I always re the, another way of looking at humane marketing is I often refer to the area, the age in which we're living in as the age of empowerment. [00:31:56] Right. The moment you try to take somebody's power of choice [00:32:00] away, they want nothing to do with you. Yeah. So marketing today is all about empowering people to choose you, not telling them to choose you. Exactly, but empowering them to choose you. And, but in the in the Hug marketing system that we teach in the Business Institute, the last step is the hug. [00:32:16] We have a very different goal now, right? Instead of the goal being to target people and shooting an arrow at them as a bullseye, our goal now is a hug. And by the hug. It's like, it's the depth of relationship. And if you have an online business, which so many of us do, or your marketing is online, uh, you know, and you may have had this experience as a podcast host that, um, the goal of hug marketing is. [00:32:38] If you have the opportunity to meet someone who probably started out as a lurker, you have built such a relationship with them that if you were to speak each other in person, you would naturally give each other a hug Exactly. With their, with their [00:32:49] Sarah: permission. And, and they want, they are gonna ask you, how can we work together? [00:32:54] Instead of you trying to, you know, do the whole spiel and presentation and all of that, and [00:33:00] they're like, I know all of that already. Let's just Yeah. How can we learn? Yeah. And [00:33:03] Jeffrey intro: in the, the world of humane marketing and hug marketing, right? It's, it's not even just. The, the, the hug worthy people that you interact with are not just clients. [00:33:12] Also, they're your advocates. They're your cheerleaders, right? They're people that love, love, love what you're doing. I have many strong advocates in my life that believe so wholeheartedly what we're doing in the Self-Employed Business Institute. They, in their own success and achievement, career achievement may be way beyond. [00:33:30] Needing us in the self-employed Business Institute, but they remember where they were when they were starting out. They remember where they were five years in business and how challenging it was and how they needed to kind of reinvent themselves and rebrand and rethink. So they, because they're way beyond that, they have compassion and empathy for people on that stage. [00:33:48] What we look at is the three to five year stage is the ideal stage for us to, to lend our support. They remember that stage, right? So they themselves may not become a client. But they're, [00:34:00] they're strong advocates for what we do because they've been there. Mm-hmm. And again, that's, those are your hug people. [00:34:08] Those are the people that you're just eternally grateful for their support, not just the business they do with you. [00:34:14] Sarah: And I, as I was reading that in the, in the book, I was like thinking, oh, it's so funny how I sign all my emails to my inner circle, people with hugs, you know? Yeah. Like hugs. That's awesome. [00:34:25] Sarah and I, and before I was like, well, is this really business? Is this accepted? And now I'm like, no, I wanna give hugs to my inner people. And then you came up with Hug Marketing. I'm like, yeah, there you go. Yeah. [00:34:39] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. It's a different goal like side to me. You, you, you do business in a much more humane way if your goal in your marketing is to achieve a hug than to look at people as a target to shoot at. [00:34:51] Yeah. Def [00:34:52] Sarah: definitely. And I'm so glad you brought up Tripwire. I, I wrote this, like I said, this hu humane marketing word, glossary. And I, I [00:35:00] was also kind of coming up like listing all these words like, To me, lead magnet is one of them because I see the magnet as kind of like this thing that sucks people in, you know, supposed to like suck them. [00:35:12] Um, and, and yeah, other, other ones like the funnel and all of that. So I'll, I'll definitely add Tripwire. I had forgotten about that. Excellent. As we, um, start to wrap up, there's one thing I want to, um, Mentioned because I, I remember from back in the days, I would listen to your podcasts all, all the time, and you would always bring up paradoxes that would be like, you even said, I'm gonna write a book once about paradox. [00:35:39] So maybe that's still in the, in the work. It's still in my mind. Yeah. And so you talk, in the book, you talk about the vision, uh, paradox and I wanted to, um, have you talk about that because. I think that's a topic that is so, well, it's close to my heart, but I think it's. Uh, so [00:36:00] often, uh, uh, um, kind of a place for disappointment for self-employed people. [00:36:05] Mm-hmm. And especially also because all the noise about the six figure and the seven figure mm-hmm. And the eight figure crap that we hear all the time. And so we're told to come up with this giant vision, right? Mm-hmm. And then, yeah, there's just paradox. So yeah, tell us [00:36:21] Jeffrey intro: more about that. Yeah, actually I think, you know, it's a vision is sort of the answer for what I refer, refer to as the goal paradox, right? [00:36:27] So I look at it as a goal paradox, um, because. And it has always puzzled me, and it's always been something I've been unwinding for and looking for a solution for myself and, and for those that I serve. Um, this goal Paradox is a tough one because as high achievers, as business owners, as people wanting to make an impact on the world, uh, of course we need goals, right? [00:36:47] You kind of, you, you, we know that we need to know where we're going and how big we want to go and where we're achieving and, and you know, the vision we have, uh, the problem is, Often that, you know, we're told to have big [00:37:00] goals. So how do we have big goals without setting ourselves up for disappointment? [00:37:04] Because I worry about the disappointment. I worry about the disappointment from not achieving the big goals that people set for themselves as becoming toxic. How many times can you not achieve your big goals? I mean, how many, how many cycles can you go through of disappointment before you start losing steam? [00:37:21] That is actually exactly why. In our marketing of the Business Institute, we focus on people in business. We, we kind of really hone it in from three to five years, but even I'll broaden it sometimes to one to five years. Um, the reason we choose that time period is because I worry about people running outta steam, right? [00:37:38] Because we're human. You know, the first, the first year in business, your naivete and your excitement and adrenaline will get you through anything. But somewhere around the third year, the reality of being, being self-employed sets in the challenges. How many times you've gone at bat and missed at something, how many launches you've tried to do and not [00:38:00] succeeded. [00:38:00] How many clients that you've tried to acquire that you didn't get, um, You know, and the goals that you set for yourself that you didn't achieve, and it's somewhere between the third and fifth year that the repetition of that is starting to wear down their energy to move forward. So to me, goals, goal setting is inherently a, a paradox because we have to set ourselves up for big goals, but how do we not set ourselves up for disappointment? [00:38:26] And the answer to that, I believe, is, there's a few different ways I, I speak about it. One of those ways. Is to set up goals without being attached to the outcome. Really, really hard to do, but understanding the difference between goal setting as the north star and it not being attached to how you feel about yourself. [00:38:48] So it's a one, one thing to do is to set goals without being attached to the outcome. Because we can't be, we're not in control of the outcome. We're not in, we're not in control of the circumstances because the guy who said, [00:39:00] it's kind of always as ironic to me that the pandemic happened in 2020 because so many organizations were using the 2020 thing as an, as a. [00:39:08] You know, a a, an anchor for, uh, clear vision, you know? Cause it's 2020 and I'm like, yeah, yeah. How did that theme work out? How did that theme work out for you? Right. Is it, you know, so we're not in control of those circumstances. So if you had big goals for Clear Vision in 2020, how'd that work out for you? [00:39:25] Right. It didn't, so, You have to not be attached to the outcome. So set your sights on the big goals without being attached to the outcome. Hard to do, but I think really necessary. And then in a practical sense, in the Business institute, we do a whole workshop on goal setting, uh, in addition to the regular curriculum. [00:39:42] And I teach it as a, uh, three tiers. So you have your, uh, your good goal, your, you know, your, your minimum goal, your likely goal, and your wow goal. And people call them different things. Um, but [00:40:00] if you tear them out in three tiers, like kind of your minimum, you know, this is what I need to get by and, you know, you know, you're confident you're gonna succeed. [00:40:07] That right in the middle is probably what you're going to achieve. But then you have your wow goal, which is what if everything in the universe worked perfectly, look what I could achieve, right? Right. So if you have the three tiers, you're more accepting, accepting of where you land and you feel safer. [00:40:25] You know, your minimum goal, so you feel safer, and when you feel safe, you're more likely to be able to reach further. So that's one of the practical strategies I do as well. [00:40:34] Sarah: Right. Yeah. To me, what, what you mentioned first is kind of like don't be attached to the outcome. Well, we're in a way coming full circle and, uh, closing back with the personal development because yeah. [00:40:48] How do you not attach to the outcome? Well, it is back to the trust. It is, um, to the, to your whole part three in, in, in your book about the daily [00:41:00] habits. Yeah. You know, you talk about even grounding and just finding something that's bigger than you. Um, and believing and trusting and, and saying, I am worthy even if, like, that's what I say, I am worthy. [00:41:13] Even if you never make a sale. Anymore. Right? Yeah. So, exactly. And that, that is that trust building on a daily [00:41:19] Jeffrey intro: basis. A hundred percent. And that's the point of daily habits because we, we as business owners live in a world that's rocking and rolling in different directions at all times. Right. And the, the what serves. [00:41:30] Us better so that we can serve others better is for us to maintain a consistent mindset. And a consistent mindset comes from having consistent habits and thoughts and keeping ourselves on track, uh, regardless of the chaos that may ensue us around, around us, but that we can always come back to center, stay ground, and keep moving forward. [00:41:52] That's how you have impact, uh, over the long haul. [00:41:55] Sarah: Yeah. And I love that it, it wasn't just, you know, daily habits. Um, not [00:42:00] just another to-do list, but more like yeah, the big things like, you know, how do you, how can you be this lighthouse in the storm? That's what we need, uh, in order to just. Keep going and, and yeah. [00:42:13] Not be attached to the outcome. Very. This has been amazing. Thank you so much. I love that you bring in the woo into the book and, and it's just like, yeah, it's a beautiful, um, a beautiful book that, that it really shows the reality of what it is like as a, as a self-employed person or entrepreneur. Yeah. I [00:42:34] Jeffrey intro: said everything I do, I try to do from in the trenches because it's the only world I know, so I may as well, um, help my people. [00:42:40] Who I'm in the trenches with to succeed and it's my pleasure to do so. Thank you. [00:42:44] Sarah: Thanks, Jeffrey. Do you share with our listeners where they can find you, your book, your podcast, all of that good stuff? [00:42:51] Jeffrey intro: Yeah, so, um, my main website is jeffrey, uh, which you will find everything in my books, the Self-Employed Business Institute, et [00:43:00] cetera. [00:43:00] Um, but I also have a great assessment if you're a business owner, if you want to check out to see in the ecosystem of being self-employed, where, uh, you may wanna apply some more. Effort, uh, you can go to self-employed Uh, it's a custom algorithm. It's actually a really kind of an amazing tool to get people thinking about what part of their business they might need to apply a little more effort to, to, uh, have a healthy and thriving self-employed ecosystem. [00:43:25] So again, that's self-employed [00:43:29] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:43:36] Jeffrey intro: Uh, I just celebrated, uh, a birthday yesterday, so I am really grateful for some pretty, you know, recent and significant life changes I made to move from Miami to Jacksonville, uh, to, uh, work every day beside my daughter who has worked for me for a couple years. [00:43:53] But she moved down from Connecticut and I moved up from Miami and we met halfway, not, not quite half, but we [00:44:00] met in Jacksonville, Florida. And both have established homes and we both have our significant others in our lives. And so yesterday was the first day that I spent my birthday, uh, with one of my kids cuz I've lived away from them for so many years. [00:44:13] Um, so I'm very grateful for that [00:44:14] Sarah: experience. Yay. And happy belated birthday. Thank you. Wonderful. Thanks for being here, Jeffrey. [00:44:21] Jeffrey intro: Thanks for having me
51:50 6/16/23
Finding Bliss in Business: The Path to Becoming a Successful & Happy Business Owner
Today I’m talking to Christine, a Humane Marketing Circle member and Creative Start-Up Coach about passion and happiness. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with Christine Michaelis, author of the book “The Happiness Formula.” We explore the intriguing question of why some business owners find greater happiness in their endeavors than others. Throughout our discussion, we uncover a treasure trove of insights, examining the transformative power of habits that promote happiness, the art of setting achievable goals that foster fulfillment rather than disappointment, and the joy derived from being part of a vibrant community. Drawing from her extensive research and expertise, Christine offers practical strategies and illuminating anecdotes that are sure to inspire and motivate listeners to unlock their own path to happiness in business and beyond. So tune in as we embark on this captivating exploration of what it takes to be a truly happy and fulfilled business owner. In this episode, Christine and I share a conversation on: Why some business owners are happier than others Habits that make us happier How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed The happiness that comes from being in community with others Her new book ‘The Happiness Formula’  And much more Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that’s an affiliate link.  Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today’s conscious customers because it’s humane, ethical, and non-pushy.  I’m Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we’re human and selling like we’re human. If after listening to the show for a while, you’re ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what.  Works and what doesn’t work in business, then we’d love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you’re picturing your  typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a.  Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn’t work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me.  My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it’s for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I’d love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.  If you love this podcast,  wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my  Hi, friends. Welcome back. I hope you’re doing well. Today’s conversation fits under the P of Passion, so we’re back to the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you’re a regular here, you know that I’m organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you probably don’t know what I’m talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the  humane marketing version of the seven Ps of slash one page.  That’s the number one and the word page. This one page marketing plan comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it’s not a, you know, six step plan here, do this. But it’s more like prompting you with questions that help you reflect on your different piece.  On today’s show, I’m talking to Christine, uh, Michael’s, uh, humane Marketing Circle, member and creative startup coach about passion and happiness. But before I tell you a little bit more about Christine and today’s show, I’d like to tell you about our upcoming storytelling, like We’re Human Workshop that takes place on June 7th.  As you may have noticed, I have this series of workshops, live workshops, with the theme of being  human. Something being human, right? And the idea is to look at these different concepts. Marketing strategies, et cetera, from the perspective of humane marketing and marketing like we’re human. So this, uh, time we’re looking at storytelling and rather than looking at storytelling from this, Hero’s perspective, right?  Hint, hero’s journey. We’re actually looking at it from being human. So how are we going to tell stories that feel like we’re human? Uh, I think we are kind of tired of the, uh, heroes, uh, stories and we’d watch, rather hear from a human level. Connect on this human level and in order to get ideal clients, we know that we, uh, need to bring more of us to our marketing, more of us to our story, but.  How, that’s the question, right? In which stories are relevant?  Well, that’s exactly what we’re discussing in this 90 minute live workshop on June 7th, and I’m so thrilled that Hillary Ria, uh, my co-host will help you find your five word life story. And I’m really super excited about this because I. I’m so happy to have found a storytelling expert that agrees with me that, you know, the, the typical heroes journey story type is kind of outdated.  We need to bring more of us to our story, and that’s what we’re gonna do in this live workshop. So it starts from within. That’s actually what we’re doing. Instead of trying to fit our story into the story arc, the hero’s journey arc we’re coming from within. And there’s still a, you know, framework.  There’s still structure, but it really comes from within. So please have a look at the details at and uh, join us for only  $27 for this confidence boosting workshop. Cuz once you. Own your story. That’s when you’re really going out there and resonating with your ideal clients.  Right? Of course, if you’re already a Humane Marketing Circle member, you can intend all our workshops for free. Okay, back to today’s episode. Let me tell you a bit more about Christine. Christine Marketing and creative startup coach, founder of the Creative Startup Academy, author of multiple books, public speaker, podcast and workshop facilitator.  She has worked in marketing and advertising for more than 12 years before she decided to start her own business supporting startups. When her hands-on approach, she has helped hundreds of individuals validate their. Business idea and create a successful startup, as well as working with small businesses, supporting them, getting clarity and marketing their business.  She sees entrepreneurship as a way of life and  loves the passion that comes from working in that industry. In our conversation today, we talked about why some business owners are happier than others and how to help, uh, those who are not always happy to get to more happiness. Some habits that make us happier.  How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed. The happiness that comes from being in community with others. Her new book, the Happiness Formula, and so much more. So let’s dive in and be happy with Christine McKays.  Hi Christine. Thanks so much for being on the Humane Marketing Podcast. I look forward to this conversation about happiness and bliss.  Christine: Yes, thank you. I’m very excited to share Rod It and um, Hopefully make some people happy. At least smile,  Sarah: at least. We’re definitely smiling. Uh, I just said  offline, I spent most of my day in nature.  We saw these little ducklings and you know, it’s finally spring. Yeah, I’m definitely happy today. So, but let’s, let’s start with you like, you know, it’s, um, I’m basically featuring this episode under the P of Passion, which is the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And so when you said that you’re coming out with a book about happiness, I’m like, well, happiness, passion, you know, it’s all these good feelings that we want to have more of.  So tell us yeah. What you are passionate about and, and then also obviously then we go into the, the whole definition of happiness and how do we get more happy as autism.  Christine: Yes. Um, well, thank you. First, uh, for having me. I’m, I’m very excited. Um, I know we’ve done so many things together and I know there will be so many more collaborations coming out of that.  Uh, and I think you can’t find a more passionate person  about, uh, what they do. I know everyone is, but I really explode with passion when I, when I talk about, um, What I do and, and I just love it. Uh, and always I say I’m an accidental entrepreneur because I never wanted my own business. Um, but it had just happened and I absolutely love it.  And I only basically work with people because I work with entrepreneurs, um, that are really passionate about what they’re doing. And that’s lovely. That wraps off on me. And it really gives you energy, I think, um, when you, uh, yeah, when you work with people that are passionate. So what am I passionate about?  Work. Mm-hmm. In this case, my own company. Um, if we are looking from a business perspective, I’m really someone who loves getting things done and crossing things off the list. I, I really love, I’m, I’m like kind of, I’m really passionate about having this and I used to not anymore, uh, have to-do lists for  personal life.  Okay, do the sports, uh, go out for, for a walk, wash the dishes and stuff. Now I don’t do that anymore, and I’m learning more and more to also sometimes do nothing, uh, which is really difficult for me because I love to finish things also. That’s not very strange. But I love to finish a shampoo bottle or to, to finish a product or something.  I have to, that’s fine with me. Um, I know what you  Sarah: mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. It’s kind of like that’s. Oh, okay. We finished this, you know, and it’s like, oh, we can move on to the next thing.  Christine: Yeah. And challenges work really well for me. If you give me a 30 day challenge, I will do all 30 days. Um, But what I’m really passionate about is as well, um, is making people smile.  I think really people always say, oh, what’s your purpose in life and stuff? And this sounds very cheesy now, but I, I love making people happy because it makes me really happy and it’s all interconnected and it’s lots of science behind it  as well. Um, however, that really, that may, that, that’s what I’m passionate about, spreading some happiness in, in swan’s life.  Hmm. Yeah.  Yeah.  Sarah: So, so let’s talk about this happiness. Um, what, what I was thinking about is like, you know, how come what makes some entrepreneurs, business people happier than others? And, and then how can we help those who are not currently happy in their business or in their life? But since we’re on a business podcast, we can talk about business.  Um, Yeah. How can we help them to find back to being happy?  Christine: I think the very first thing, I mean there’s also official definitions of happiness and stuff. The very first thing is obviously to know and understand, um, which probably people do that. Happiness means different things to different people. Um, however, there’s also science  that shows what doesn’t make happy.  Um, but we are gonna focus, of course, also on the things that. Will make people happy and also, um, business owners. So, um, I, I would say you would need to define first, what does happiness mean to you? What does success mean to you? Because therefore, for, um, entrepreneurs are often interlinked, um, let’s say saying, okay, if I have success, That makes me happy and that makes also the business sustainable.  But what does that mean? It does not necessarily mean, uh, a lot of money. It might mean I help X amount of people with what I do, or I have an impact on society, on an, the environment, whatever. Uh, a specific, uh, success definition. I think everyone, uh, as a business owner should have. I, uh, again, I appreciate that we all have to pay the bills and that is a business.  Um, so it, um, it’s thinking about the money, but not in, in the connection with  happiness really. So understanding what does happiness mean to you and your, in your business, um, and what does success mean to you? It’s the very, very first thing. And then if we go into a few really practical things and steps into what, um, science has shown, what really works, um, and what helps with happiness and increasing your happiness, Is, um, investing into experiences in instead of materialistic things.  So because they create lasting memories and give you the sense of personal growth as well, and that overall can contribute, um, to a deeper understanding and satisfaction and fulfillment. And, um, basically when you do that, you prioritize time. Over resources. You prioritized, uh, your time and resource in a way that really align with your values as well and your personal interests.  So in business  or in personal life as well. And again, this can give you this sense of fulfillment, fulfillment and feeds into the purpose that you might not have defined yet for yourself because it’s a very difficult question. What’s your purpose like? Mm-hmm. I just talked to someone else who said, I don’t believe in that stuff.  I don’t think we have any purpose. And I was like, okay. Uh, that’s okay. Everyone has their own view. Um, but really you can, you can do that. And investing into experiences. You also invest in relationships with other people. You create memories together. And, um, you also share that, that success with, uh, other ones.  And in that case, um, you can share successes, for example, that you had or the company had with the team, with co-founders. With, uh, freelancers that you, that you work with, if you outsource something with suppliers, with clients, you can share this. If, if the client had a success, you should celebrate that.  Mm-hmm. Not because, oh, I’m so great. That was me, but really because you’re happy for that person.  Mm-hmm. And it will make you happy. So that would be the next experiences.  Sarah: I really like that because I just come back, uh, from, from an experience. So, so basically we have a mastermind, uh, where we meet every, uh, every month and every month that somebody else hosts the, the get together.  And so today, I hosted and so I just, I said, instead of staying at our place, let’s go down to the forest because I’m. Lucky enough to live next to a forest, next to, um, a little water, uh, stream as well. And so, um, you know, it takes time though to take time of our, out of our busy lives, right? Mm-hmm. And so, uh, only five out of the 10 people could make it, but those who made it, we just appreciated it so much.  And then, like I said, we saw the ducklings, we created memories together, right? And, and yeah, we just. Felt really happy. Where had we stayed in our office and, you know,  maybe, yeah. Made more money or, you know, had another client that it wouldn’t have given us the same feeling of happiness. I’m sure. Yes. It’s, yeah.  It’s really those times where you step out of the. Normal kind of, um, things that, that you feel these moments of awe and, and experience what you, what you said.  Christine: Another thing that, and also with others. I mean with others, exactly. You, you can go by yourself and you have a great experiences, but if you share this moment with others, the shared moment again as another.  Yeah. Um, yeah. So another  Sarah: layer of happiness. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another, um, point you make in the book that contributes to happiness is about building. Habits. Um, so talk to us about these habits. Why do habits, one could say, well, habits make it more boring. So, so how do habits make us more happy?  Christine: Yes. So building habits is  another thing like you just mentioned.  Uh, I just wanna mention three quickly other things as well. Um, before we jump into the habits, maybe because it’s about the experiences, uh, that jumps back into that is the savoring the moment. Meaning that you really see and, and stay in that moment and see the positive side and aspects of things. And what you can do is you can share that with others.  So if it’s an experience that you had yourself, um, to have a bigger impact, you can share this with others as well via the phone. Maybe a video, maybe a quick call, video call or something. Um, that can help that. Um, You can physically jump up in the air and, and be happy about things and, uh, stuff like that.  But anyway, just to, to, uh, combine that again with the experiences, so with the habits, um, because habits, um, enhance, can enhance if you’re talking about good habits. Um, so, and these might have to be defined, but they, um, enhance really  your physical health, your mental health. Um, your emotional resilience and can really contribute to, uh, again, to this greater sense of purpose and fulfillment.  Mm-hmm. Now, creating habits, I’m gonna talk about this in a second, but, uh, engaging in hobbies or activities that bring you joy and there’s a difference between joy and happiness. Officially there’s this definition. Happiness is like the longer state and, uh, of something. The joy is the one that you have in that moment.  Mm-hmm. Um, but I would say find something that brings you joy outside of business also. Um, of course you should have joy in the business and what you’re doing. But make sure you do find hobbies in, um, groups that you, um, go out with in nature and things that have nothing to do necessarily with your business.  Because I think as entrepreneurs as well, we  have difficulties to detach from work because it’s always there and it’s our baby and we’re passionate about it so that we. Mm. Don’t see that we overwork ourselves sometimes. So, uh, take some stuff out of there as well and create habits around it. Um, have regular working hours is a habit that I think everyone should have.  Um, when you ha work for someone else or if you work for yourself, have your own business. Make sure you have working hours set and don’t work after those hours. There might be exceptions cuz maybe there’s a podcast recording that you’re doing with someone else after hours or. Um, you speak at an event and it’s not possible to do otherwise, but the norm should be that you have regular set hours.  That’s, I think, a good habit to have. Um, to have a end of work routine is something that I never had. And after I worked with someone, um, that was also a remote coach, basically that was one of the first things she said,  you should have. A habit, a routine when finished working because you can signal your brain.  Okay, that’s it. That’s the end of the work today, especially if you’re working from home, right? Because, and you might be even in the same room and where you do other things, um, in the not have extra office. That’s another great habit. Um, morning routines. I’m a massive fan of morning routine. Um, you don’t have to be extreme, but having some kind of routine to start your day to wake up in a slower way.  I get up very early. I have almost two hour morning routine. Um, but where you involve different kind of senses, bit of exercise, doesn’t have to be a massive exercise. Can be also yoga, some breathing exercise. Maybe people like to do visualizations in the morning, maybe to ride whatever you feel, what works for you, which gives you the time.  To wake up and to set up for the day. I think that would be a good habit to have. Um, healthy eating, which can be sometimes  challenging if you are in, in this run of getting things done. Um, Eating very fast. Even if you eat healthy stuff, uh, is also not, uh, recommended. And I’m still eating too fast. I’m, I’m done in six minutes with my whole, uh, lunch, which is, uh, not good.  I take an hour because then I do a walk and things like that, but the actual eating part is too short actually. Mm-hmm. Um, But eating healthy because it will give you energy, it will be good for your body. Um, and it will really have a big impact on your health and wellbeing and your happiness as well.  Sarah: What I hear is like there’s a lot of habits that are actually more life related than they are business related. Um, and those are the ones who are really established as. Solid foundation. Right. Of course. Then we could also be speaking about, you know, create a habit to write every day, you know,  write blog posts every, like mm-hmm.  All of these other habits. But it sounds like the ones that really build a foundation and that make you happy, happy are, are more life related  Christine: habits. Yes. Yeah, because they, they impact you. Yeah. And the same with getting enough sleep. If you don’t get enough sleep, you won’t be able to focus enough during your day and get stuff done that you want to get done.  Right? So everything impacts your, um, impacts your work as well. If you don’t eat healthy, you probably don’t have enough. Uh, if you don’t drink enough water, if you’re not eating healthy, you don’t have enough energy to get through the day, you will have a down point as well. Um, if you. If you don’t give yourself enough time to wake up in the morning with a morning or dinner, that will impact your day.  Yeah. Um, of course these cutoff days and stuff that I mentioned are more work related, but yes, for sure. Yeah. I’m also  Sarah: a big fan of, um, I think it was Tim Ferris, at least that’s who I heard, uh, talk about it. Uh, first is, is you know, kind of.  Minimizing the decision fatigue, like making, we we’re making so many decisions every day as entrepreneurs, right?  Mm-hmm. So if you can just cut a few of these decisions and just have the habits, uh, for example, you know, I have oatmeal every morning, and that’s just. Who I am now, it’s basically who I am. It’s like I’m Sarah who eats oatmeal with, um, turmeric every morning. And so then it just becomes part of you. I do yoga every morning.  It’s becomes part of you. And so you don’t have to decide, should I eat yoga today or should I not? And so that in a way that it’s not boring to me. It just makes me happy. I look forward to my oatmeal every day. Right. Yeah. So,  Christine: and that’s exactly the, the point of habits and, and because it becomes a habit, it’s effortless.  You don’t have to take a decision. It’s just part of what you do. Yeah. And it’s also okay, and I’m someone who also struggles with that because I’m so,  um, Chiefer mindset, uh, if you want to call it and crossing off things to this, but. It’s also okay to be flexible if you stayed up longer, wake up later to get enough sleep and don’t compromise on that part just to get your habit in.  Um, so I think this flexibility around habit building. Um, so they become part and become easy and you don’t have to take the decision to do something. However, if for whatever reason you can’t do it at one day, that’s also okay. Yeah. And I think it,  Sarah: you have to struggle with, with yourself and say, okay, fine today, and don’t do that habit.  Christine: Exactly. And just a, a couple of tips there. Um, maybe. And people have heard that before probably on how to actually build habits and how to create habit and to make it effortless and there’s lots of science behind it. How long does it take? If some people say 21 days? Some people say, uh, 30 something, some 70 something, I think depends on the person, depends on the habit.  Hmm. Uh, getting rid of  habit is even more difficult than creating healthy habits. Um, but starting small. Is of course the, the really, the biggest thing. If you say, I wanna meditate every day, one hour, you won’t, if you’ve never meditate before, if you say, I’m gonna take a mindful breath every day before I get out of bed, I can do that.  That’s the smallest thing you can do. Take one mindful breath, that’s like a meditation, or I do a five minute guided meditation from YouTube or stretching or something that probably you can do. Um, accountability can be something that can help. So find someone, uh, that you share this again, shared experiences.  Mm-hmm. They maybe the habit with, um, or you, some people like use tracking apps. Uh, right. Strangely enough, I don’t, but, uh, I know there’s a lot of happy tracking apps and stuff. Some people, for some people that works. Um, again, tracking the progress. Um, if you do yoga, like you mentioned, for example, if you.  Um, you see, you get more flexible and, uh, it’s, it’s better and you have probably as back pain because, uh, we probably sit a lot in front of the computer with a lot of zoom meetings, things like that. A good habit to have is also have taking screen breaks, for example, um, not to be in front of the screen for eight hours a day.  Taking the breaks. Make sure your eyes can relax. Um, celebrating when you’ve done one of the habits, okay? You, you created something. So if you wanna do yoga, if you take a breath, whatever it is, then in the end, that habit is you celebrate that you did that. And that doesn’t mean you have to then go out and drink something, or you, you go on a holiday every time you do a habit.  But it can be just like a Well done, Christine, a head on the shoulder. Maybe you wanna hug yourself. Maybe you look in the mirror and say, yes. Yes, I did that. Thank you. Good. That was good. That’s like little celebration to signal your brain, that little success moment as well.  Yeah. Feeling more accomplished.  Um, and a final thing is, um, finding the situations and the support and the surroundings that help you to implement your healthy habits. So if you wanna establish something and your life and the people around you is not, just not set up for that. Then think about it and doing it consistently will help you to do that.  And um, I think the last thing they always say is, make sure you attach it to something that you already do. So someone said to me, oh, if, if you wanna do five sit ups in the morning, if we talk about physical exercise and you attach that to when you stopped brushing your teeth, Then you will do it more likely than trying to do it outside of something that you already do.  You wanna drink more water. That’s why some  Sarah: people have their running shoes already out when they go to bed. Right, right next to the bed.  Christine: Yeah. Also, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, this, uh, would be like, good, good tips. Thanks. Thank  Sarah: you.  Yeah. I, there’s another thing I really wanna make sure we have time to talk about.  Mm-hmm. Um, which is goals. Because in a way, it kind of probably ties into our definition of success because we, as entrepreneurs, we set ourselves sometimes quite aggressive goals, right? Mm-hmm. And then we’re not happy or we’re sad if we’re not achieving them. And so you talk about this idea of making sure that we set achievable goals.  Mm-hmm. Talk to us about that and how that makes us happier.  Christine: Yes. Um, well, because if we feel, um, first of all, if we are achieving goals and then we talk about how I usually set goals as well, um, then it gives us this sense of fulfillment that we achieved something, uh, we should always celebrate, we achieved the goal.  So it, it gives us a sense of moving forward. I think if you do not  set goals, it can be very demotivating in business. Um, and I always say, if you don’t set yourself a goal, how do you know you achieved something? If you never wanted to achieve something because a goal is nothing else, then okay, I wanna get something done if we, okay.  Goal setting is a harsh, harsh thing and I know we all do it and, and stuff, and we’re in business. Um, however, I think getting to a specific point where you want to be, It’s already setting yourself a goal. And we all want to be somewhere. We all want to be, have specific impact. We all want to have a certain amount of money to support a lifestyle that we want.  We all, um, want to make work with X amount of people because then we know, again, we have that impact in that kind of way, so that that really can support making us happy. But one thing is extremely important. Goals might change. Goals are not written in stone like they say you can, it’s your goal.  Well, I always say you have three questions.  Um, is it your goal, yes or no? Is it maybe put onto you by someone else? Um, especially when you work in a company and it’s, you are not a business owner, then you often get goals set by other people. Um, does the goal excite you? And, um, if any of the answers to these questions is no. Revisit the goal because you will get demotivated.  Mm-hmm. And then there’s obviously a lot of acronyms and formulas and stuff that you can use to set goals and, uh, one of the most used ones is smart. I actually don’t like that too much, even though it does work. But I, I just don’t like it too much because it’s always used in corporate situations and stuff like that.  Um, so I, um, use actually a different one, which is called Achieve, which already has a great word in it. Okay, so the acronym like that much better? Yes. Um, so it’s basically stating a goal as if  it already happened. So not I want this, but, um, as as it, I have a successful business. Let’s start with that.  Instead of saying, oh, I don’t want to be in a full-time job. Um, then we have the C, which is clear and specific, so you need to know what that means. What does a successful business mean to you? Where is it with whom is it? How much many clients do you have? The turnover, because you will have to think about the money side as well.  Um, and then, um, be very clear and specific on that. And then the age is actually the hittable, which is. Achievable. Um, is this actually realistic? Too often I hear people that, oh, I’m gonna have, uh, this company that will have 2 million turnover at the end of, uh, year two. This is not realistic. Um, probably depends on the company.  Um, the I in Achieve is in a positive direction. So state what you want rather than what you don’t want. Also has a bit to do with how the brain works.  Um, because they, uh, the brain does not understand negatives. Um, and if you give it what you already want, then there’s a lot of research done that you will actually be more likely to achieve that e uh, so achieve, uh, is exciting.  So it should be exciting for you. If it doesn’t excite you, I would not recommend. You’re not gonna Yeah. Call, go for it. Yeah. And then the V is actually value-based. Um, and I think that’s really important because, um, it should align with your values. You need to be clear on your values, what’s important to you, what don’t you want, what do you want in life, um, and it needs to align with that.  And then we have the last E, which is ecological. And basically what that means is who and what is affected by you achieving that goal. Because maybe you say, I want to have this company and I wanna run it in New Zealand. If you have a family, For example, or also friends or uh, husband  or children, they will be affected by you moving to New Zealand.  So you should check if they’re okay with you achieving that goal. You might have less time for anyone because all of a sudden you have to work more. Um, and you check if they’re okay with that. And if they are not okay with that, are you okay with them not being okay with that? That makes sense because it’s your goal, it’s your life.  But you,  Sarah: you’re part of a bigger ecosystem and Exactly. You need to check in with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like, I like that achieve much better than the the smart. Yeah. Mm. It’s, yeah. It’s somehow outdated and Yeah. It’s maybe it’s also bigger. It’s overused. It’s like from the corporate day, so we’re like, nah, we’re getting Exactly.  Christine: Exactly.  Sarah: I love that. Yeah. Um, We both have communities. Um, and so I’m just wondering also what happiness and community, where they  overlap what they have in common. Um, yeah. You wanna talk about your community and then we can also talk about the circle a little bit.  Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So in, in general, I would say just, um, to answer the question, what do communities have to do with, um, happiness?  Um, it’s actually scientifically proven as well that soul through connection, doing things with others, um, is extremely important for happiness and it’s crucial for your over overall wellbeing, um, and happiness. And I talk in, um, my book about that as well, a lot. Um, and they actually found that it’s. If you are connected in a community, so that’s even in a church or in our cases, right?  Sarah: Professional communities. Real life communities or  Christine: online? Yeah, online communities. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it, they, they’ve shown the studies have shown that you’re less likely to experience, um, uh, premature, uh,  death and have more chances to survive fatal illnesses. Because it, it is a bit strange, but it’s really, makes, makes total sense to me.  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so because, um, it will also build up for more resilience and, um, you will have a support system when you’re going through difficult times. You will, um, less likely feel loneliness and isolation, have this sense of belonging and you can discover your purpose there as well. Um, and usually you are part of a community that you have shared values with, right?  And, uh, this is where our communities and especially also yours come in and we just be a part of something and we can create new experiences together. So that’s based again, of the shared experiences. Um, so having social connections and groups and communities that you belong to really play a massive role in health.  Physical health really. Um, but also in the  mental, um, health and wellbeing and, um, what my community is, uh, for entrepreneurs in the first three years to support them with all kind of things, uh, support, uh, in, in resources and life support and with the community. Um, and yours obviously is a fantastic community of professional people, but that are not.  Mm. Because sometimes when people hear the word professional, they’re a bit put off because they think it’s like that kind of person that just thinks, uh, uh, about numbers and about, uh, how many followers do I have and, um, how much money do I make? And stuff like, it’s not that you can, in my point of view.  And also I know everyone in your community you can be professional, meaning reliable. Um, Exchange knowledge. So you’re knowledgeable as well in what you’re doing. And I think your community’s amazing for that because I’ve met so many amazing people, started already collaborating with them. And I remember the very first  session that I attended life, I had so much that I took out of that that I then implemented into my business, which really works as well.  Um, and you. All the focus is obviously all on humane and gentle, um, marketing techniques as well. And it, it’s really, it’s really lovely and it, it does give me that sense of, I found a tribe that I belong to because I can feel that we have, um, shared values, we create these experiences. It’s very relaxed and, um, but.  Still professional. Like I say,  Sarah: I love to highlight that. Right. It’s this idea, well, I guess we do speak a lot about being human, right? Mm-hmm. Marketing, like we’re human. And so that’s really what I’ve wanting, wanted to create is a place where we can be human. Mm-hmm. And yet still be professionals or talk about marketing and business and, and I think that’s what also  creates the happiness because we are.  All being our authentic selves. I think that’s what you also meant by the community where you feel like you can be yourself,  Christine: right? Yes. And you can feel that passion that everyone has. Yeah. So coming back to the passion that everyone has for their business, and again, if you, if you talk to people that are passionate about something, this will wrap off on you because it’s positive energy and it will really, really gives you energy.  Because I, I know it can be sometimes difficult to attend a meeting after hours. Um, right. But every time I, I attend, for example, one of yours, which will be for my time, for example, at five o’clock, sometimes once a month, um, or twice a month. Then I do think, oh yeah, I had a long day. Yeah. But I do know after this meeting, I will be energized actually.  Right. I will be energized because of the people  Sarah: in there. It’s experience, again, it’s how we started, right? Yeah. It’s more of an experience rather than just like,  oh, let me listen to another meeting, or, yes, yes. Because it’s not that. Yeah. And, and I just, because you started talking about, um, you know, other communities, church, or mm-hmm.  You know, faith-based or whatever. It’s almost like, at least in Europe, that’s kind of diminished, right? Mm-hmm. We don’t have. Or a lot of us are not really in faith-based communities anymore. And I remember talking with my husband about it, and it’s like, we’re not craving the church, but we are thinking, you know, at least his parents, they were very, um, involved in church and he’s like, yeah, we had a place to be on Sunday.  Mm-hmm. And, and it, and we, you know, we did things together and stuff like that. And it’s true that. It’s almost like we need to replace that now.  Christine: Mm-hmm. And there is actually someone who is doing that across the world also very successfully. Uh, they’re called Sunday  Assembly Uhhuh, and they’re on purpose, uh, not religious based.  So, um, he’s actually saying, I don’t believe in any gods or anything, but he believes in community and he creating those places where people go every Sunday. And have fun together. So I went to a lot of these in when I was in the UK because the guy who founded it, um, Who’s also was hosting some of my events that I was doing across Europe, actually, because he’s a comedian.  Um, they’re really amazing events because people go there, you meet the same, and they, they’re like a franchise. So people, they pop up everywhere. Also around the world, also in the US and stuff. And people go and you sing along to a someone to a karaoke song of, uh, of queen. Then there’s someone who’s, um, There’s always a theme of the day.  Mm-hmm. Someone who has written a poem about that theme. Then there’s someone who gives a talk about something. And then, um, so I, I actually also did a talk there about community building because of another project I was working on.  And then people stay together and they go together in the pub and, and stuff like that.  And that is really exactly what you mean. Yeah,  Sarah: yeah, yeah. It’s so needed, so yeah. Yeah, I think so. I’m happy that you are creating your community for your people and, and yeah, I think there needs to be more opportunities for people to, to  Christine: commune, to get together. Yes. And also to get together, uh, in person.  I mean, we’ve never met in person. Hopefully we will next, uh, next year around this time, of course. Um, because I know you’re organizing something, but. Everything is online and everything. It can be very difficult as well to activate a community and to get together and to have this community feeling, even though you’re on the screen for zoom fatigue, this new word that came out, this new illness that all of a sudden happened.  But yeah, I think, yeah.  Sarah: Well, obviously everything we talked about here is, is kind of, well not everything, but a lot  of what we talked about here came from your book. So yes, please do. Tell us. Uh, and for those of us who are watching on YouTube, you can hold it up because you just got it today. Oh,  Christine: yes, wait, I have it here.  It’s a first printed copy. Yay. The Happiness Formula. Thank you. Uh, you can get it on Amazon, basically on Amazons, but, uh, there is, uh, greatest startup where you can find that if in case you would be interested. Um, however, um, we are also for, for you, for the sense of this podcast, I would like to offer.  The Kindle book, at least the English version in this case are for free. So, Ooh. Thank you. Yeah. So, so when this one is, uh, aired, which, uh, is on the 2nd of June, I think. Yeah. Um, which is the Friday. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday, this book will be available, the Happiness Formula for three on Kindle. Wow,  Sarah: amazing.  So I’ll make sure I use the right link where we can, uh,  download that and, and read about the habits and the goals. And there’s so much else we had prepared but didn’t have time to talk about. So yes, I’m just gonna have to read the book. Wonderful. Well, do you tell us, um, where people can find you, uh, your website again, where you most often hang out on social  Christine: media and all of that?  Uh, I think LinkedIn. Um, would be, um, one of the preferred ways to get in contact with me. Um, but you find everything on my website. Also the LinkedIn link on, on the bottom, uh, and the footer, um, to my profile. So if you go to creative startup, there you find everything, the book and also my LinkedIn.  Link the books  Sarah: because you’ve written like 20 books, right? Yeah. This is the  Christine: 20th. Yes. I got a bit  Sarah: obsessed. Make sure you celebrate because you tell everybody else to do it. So  Christine: make sure I, I, I, yes. I already celebrated when I unpacked earlier. Uh, and, and actually was running around and, and dancing and put a song on.  And also my, my boyfriend was dancing with me, but we will celebrate more this weekend.  Sarah: Yes. Nice. I always have one last question on my podcast, and it’s actually also, uh, another thing we skipped, which is gratitude. Uh, so what are you grateful for today?  Christine: Um, uh, this week apart from being grateful to have, uh, this opportunity to spread more joy and happiness, uh, in people’s life, I think.  One, there’s two big things I’m very grateful for. First, I, uh, I found love. Mm-hmm. Finding, uh, the person that you want to stay with for hopefully for the rest of your life that will be hopefully long and healthy. Mm-hmm. Um, that’s one massive thing I’m massively grateful for, and that’s always going in my gratitude journal every day.  Um, and the other thing, uh, is really to have these new opportunities, meeting so many lovely people. So there’s so much support out there emotionally and um, with business  advice practically and everything, and I’m really, really grateful for that, that people are so openly sharing and supporting.  Sarah: Nice, nice.  Two things to be grateful for. Yeah. I’m grateful for this conversation. Thanks for being here. Thank you.  Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I hope it put a smile on your face and maybe got you curious about Christine’s book to learn some more Happy. Habits so you can get her book, and as she said, she’s offering it for free until June 4th, 2023 at creative startup  So go there now and download, uh, your free version of the Kindle book for free until June 4th.  You can find out more about Christine and her work at Creative Startup Academy. Dot com. And if you’re looking for others who think like you, then why not join Christine and I in the Humane Marketing Circle?  You can find out more about, uh, this at, and I also hope to see a few of you at the storytelling like we’re human craft, your five word life story workshop. On June 7th with Hillary Rio, you can find out more about that at You’ll find the show notes of this slash 1 65.  And on this beautiful page, you’ll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like  we’re human and selling like we’re human. And if you’re an audiobook fan, I have good news marketing like We’re Human is.  Available on, uh, audible or everywhere else you get your audio books. So if you are kind of tired of reading, especially now as we are heading into the, um, nice sunny season, at least on my side of the world, maybe you just want to go for a walk in nature and listen to the book while you’re walking. Uh, again, you can look that up on Audible or anywhere else where you find.  Uh, audiobooks, of course, read by yours truly. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon in.
47:59 6/2/23
The Importance of Community in Marketing
Today's episode features a special guest, Mark Schaefer, a globally-recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. Mark and Sarah delve into the significance of community in today's world and its role in humane marketing. They explore the difference between a community and an audience, the importance of letting go of control as a community builder, the struggles of building a community, and the potential synergy between AI and human communities. They also discuss effective strategies for attracting new members, common mistakes made by community builders and how AI fits into the picture of community. As entrepreneurs, understanding the essence of community building and the benefits it offers can help us create meaningful connections and grow our businesses sustainably. He studied under Peter Drucker for three years and has advanced degrees in marketing and organizational development. Mark holds seven patents and is a faculty member of the graduate studies program at Rutgers University. His blog and podcast -- The Marketing Companion -- are at the top of the charts in the marketing field. Customized for every audience, Mark’s inspiring and memorable programs specialize in marketing and strategies for digital marketing, social media, and personal branding. His clients range from successful start-ups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson & Johnson, Dell, Pfizer, The U.S. Air Force, and the UK Government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 path-finding books including the first book ever written on influence marketing. Mark’s books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities, have been translated into 15 languages, and can be found in more than 750 libraries worldwide. In this episode, Mark and I discuss: Why community is more important now then ever before The difference between a community and an audience The role of the ego for community builders The struggles of building a community AI and human communities: can they work together? And much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back. We arrived once again at the seventh P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Today's conversation fits under the P of. Partnership. If you are a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan that comes with [00:03:00] the seven Ps of Humane slash one page. [00:03:06] The number one and the word page, and this truly is a completely different version of the seven Ps of marketing that starts with yourself. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps. And so, like I said, today's. Conversation fits under the seventh p the P of partnership, and clearly that's a new P that I added. [00:03:32] It didn't exist in the original sixties version of the seven Ps of marketing. In today's episode, I'm joined by my colleague and fellow marketer, mark Schaffer. Mark is a returning guest as I've spoken to him twice before, since we're fellow introverts. And so he came once to speak on my. Previous podcasts, the one, two podcasts before. [00:03:58] So not the [00:04:00] gentle marketing podcasts, but the one before that, and where I was mainly talking to introverts. I'll dig out the episode. Link so you can go listen to that. So mark spoke to me about being an introvert in business and marketing, and then I had him come back also to talk about his book Marketing Rebellion which actually came out just before. [00:04:22] Weeks before marketing like we're human, which was then called the Gentle Marketing Revolution. So clearly we're kindred spirits, not just personality wise, but also otherwise how we think. Again, we didn't talk about this, but he came out with Marketing Rebellion and for me it was marketing Revolution. [00:04:45] So I'll tell you a bit more about Mark in just a moment, but. Since today's topic is all about community, I want to take a moment to tell you about our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and what we've been up to in the last [00:05:00] few weeks and months. So the Humane Marketing Circle is a growing community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs. [00:05:08] Here's the theme again, with the rebellion or the revolution. So we're a community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who are ready for something different, something fresh and new, a new way of marketing, and a new way of business building, and also a new way of being in community. We now have. Four monthly gatherings, two meetups in which we discuss marketing, one 90 minute business or marketing related workshop with an expert or someone from the community. [00:05:40] So I always try to find experts within the community because we're all experts. And then every now and then if I don't find someone in the community, I'll go and look outside. We're also starting this month with an. Extra call we, that we call net weaving, so it's not networking, but [00:06:00] net weaving which we focus on, in which we focus on forming friendships between members that then lead to new business op. [00:06:08] Opportunities, collaborations, referrals, et cetera. But the main focus is to be human in these net weaving calls. Really just let go of the mask and show up as humans in our comfy clothes and on our couches and sofas, and just build friendships that then eventually lead to new business opportunities. [00:06:31] Here's how our community meetups work. So those are the two regular monthly meetings that we have. One of them I lead and one of them is led by one of our three community ambassadors. In the first half of the call, members bring their questions and we have a conversation about what. It works for us in marketing. [00:06:54] For example, one of the last calls we talked about AI and we share [00:07:00] tools and discussed benefits, dangers, overall ethical questions. We also, just on the last call, we talked about the gentle sales path and what members are doing in terms of bringing new people into their gentle sales paths. And so we take turns, we raise our hands and take turns and everybody. [00:07:19] Is really a leader in the, in their chair, and they get to learn from others and also share. And in the second half of the call, we go into breakout rooms and we have a more intimate conversation with other heart-centered entrepreneurs, which is super valuable because we don't often get this, you know, brainstorming and kind of feedback from other entrepreneurs. [00:07:46] And for example, this month our topic is the P of people. So I always bring a question for the breakout rooms and We discussed, for example a limiting belief that holds our people back. So [00:08:00] what's a limiting belief that holds our clients back? And then we took turns in sharing that in the small breakout room. [00:08:07] So that's the format. Of our meetups. Then we've also successfully transitioned to our new community platform on Kajabi, and I have to say I'm super pleased with it. It's such a lot of fun. We had our first live call directly. In our live room, in the community, so not on Zoom but directly within the Cajabi community, which makes it really safe and it feels like you're really unique to us. [00:08:37] So rather than being on Zoom, which we kind of all use, but it, it has become this tool where. We somehow we show up in our business mindset where if we're all of a sudden in our own platform and we have a call, and it just really felt like, oh, this is, this is our [00:09:00] home. We're hanging out in our home. [00:09:01] And that's what members also mentioned. There's still a few bugs that were working out, but All in all, we love this new community platform on Kajabi, and we're just truly embracing it. And then, as I said, Eddie, our community facilitator will lead his first NetWeaving call really a, a fun call to foster friendships between members that then lead to business opportunities. [00:09:27] I'm super excited to have him on board. It's interesting because Mark, you'll hear him say in. In our podcast episode, you'll hear him say that it's good to hire the youngest member you can find, or the, the youngest person you can find. And so that's exactly what I did with Eddie. He's a millennial probably even. [00:09:48] Younger than millennial. Millennials are now kind of like, oh, they're, you know, they aged as well. So he's, he's 27 and he just brings such a new perspective, such a [00:10:00] different way of being in community, which yeah, which we all love. So it's been great. So I created a, a special may coupon code for you if you'd like to join us now and save 15% on your monthly membership rate for as long as you stay. [00:10:16] So if you feel like now's the time, you can use the coupon code may gift. So, m. A Y G I F T on the checkout page by going to And this code is valid until May 31st, 2023. So with that, let's go back to our conversation with Mark. About communities. But first, let me tell you a bit about Mark. [00:10:46] So Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. His clients range from successful startups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson and Johnson, [00:11:00] Dell, Pfizer, the US Air Force, and the UK government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 pathfinding books, including the first book ever written on influence marketing. [00:11:11] Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities have been translated into 15 languages and can be found in more than 250 libraries worldwide. In today's episode we talked about why community is more important now than ever before. The difference between a community and an audience. [00:11:34] The role of the ego for community builders, the struggles of building a community, how hard it is really to get people together and host the space. And finally we also talk about AI and the role of AI in human communities and how they can work together, cuz that's actually the third part of Mark's new book, belonging to the Brand.[00:12:00] [00:12:00] Let's dive in with Mark. [00:12:34] Court. Good to see you, mark. I, I just said, let's just hit record because we're already sharing all, all this, this good stuff. So we are, we are excited to have you back on the show here. Really looking forward to talking to you about community. Your latest book has a lot of bookmarks already. [00:12:57] Definitely excited. Belonging to the [00:13:00] brand by community is the last great marketing strategy. So let's dive right into it. Most people on, on my show already know who you are. So I'm not gonna go into tell me who Mark Schaffer is and all of that stuff. Why is community so essential and why now? [00:13:18] Mark: I think that's, that's the question is, is, is why now? [00:13:22] Because community has, has always been essential. There's a great quote in the book. From a, there's a great marketer. He was with Coca-Cola, he was with Airbnb, Jonathan Milton Hall, and Jonathan said, look, when our ancestors were gathering around the fire, it, it wa it, it was to create this sense of belonging. [00:13:44] We've always longed to belong a lot of the social structures in our world today. You know, have, have just collapsed, especially here in America. A lot of the ways we used to gather and, and find that community are gone. A lot of that [00:14:00] was made a lot worse during the pandemic. Now I wanna go back a step and assure people this isn't like a touchy-feely, fluffy book about, you know, You know why we should all be in a community. [00:14:14] This is a business book with, I think, a very strong business case of why businesses should view community as part of their marketing strategy. Community isn't new from the first days of the internet. Businesses tried to create communities. Most of them failed because they were set out to like sell more stuff. [00:14:39] People don't really want to gather to buy more stuff, so they didn't really work. Most of the communities today, about 70% of the communities that actually work today for businesses are focused on transactions, customer self-service, which is fine, but the point of my book is that. [00:15:00] The, the purpose of branding is to create this emotional connection with our customers. [00:15:05] A feeling, a meaning that keeps them connected to us. And there's no more powerful way to do that than community. And I show a lot of data. I have a lot of case studies in the book that kind of prove this while we're focused on. You know, customer self-service, which is what most communities look at, look at today. [00:15:28] We're missing bigger opportunities like collaborate, collaboration, co-creation, customer advocacy, sharing information quickly. These are all massive benefits that are going away in other marketing channels. So number one. This is a business book about marketing that works. But I also point out this is marketing that heals, which is a unique aspect of this idea. [00:15:57] Mm-hmm. Because as we talked about, we've got [00:16:00] this mental health crisis going. Everywhere in the world. I don't know what it's like for you in Switzerland, but here it's in the news every day, especially with our young people today. And so we're longing to belong. We need to belong. And if businesses would look at really effective communities from the brand marketing lens, it not only works, but it can actually have a very positive impact on our customers and even the world. [00:16:31] Yeah. [00:16:32] Sarah: And it's so interesting because in our pre-recording talk, we, we discussed, You know, I, I mentioned that I was gonna actually go all in and create a live event, and, and I mentioned that I have a place in Sicily, and you were like, oh, I like Sicily. And it reminded me of one of the stories in your book, and I think it's in the beginning of the book, where you talk about this store, this shop that I think it was actually led by a Sicilian, or [00:17:00] originally Sicilians, right? [00:17:02] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, and they still have this. Shop. Yeah. So tell us the story about, because it it, and I tell you what I told my husband and, and really that's still the feeling that we get in Sicily. Like it really is still like that. Yeah. So tell us that story. Well, we don't [00:17:19] Mark: have that. It's, we don't have that feeling in a, in America or most places, so, yeah. [00:17:23] So. You know, when when I was a little boy, it was always a special occasion when my grandfather brought something back from, he, he would call it the Italian store. And so I, I got to go back. This store has still been there since 1903. Three brothers. Came to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and they started making pasta, handmade pasta, and now they, it's still in the same family. [00:17:53] Mm-hmm. And the family members make a point to be there in the store, you know, interacting with [00:18:00] customers. Mm-hmm. If you, if there's any, they, they also do like a lot of Shipping and stuff of their specialty products. And if there's ever a problem, I mean, one of, one of those family members is paying attention to it. [00:18:12] You know themselves, well, I, I, I was away from this store for like 40 years, came back, visited Pittsburgh and I, I went to this, this area. Which used to be like a, a, just like a warehouse area, you know, really kind of busy and, you know, dirty Now it's a, it's a big tourist area. Mm-hmm. And the store is still there. [00:18:34] Same old wooden floors. This, all the signs are handwritten all over the stores and, And you know, I walk in and they've got this huge class case with 400 different kinds of cheese, just magnificent and smoked sausages and all these things that they're bringing in from Italy and, and you know, most, mostly Italy, but some other parts of the world. [00:18:58] And I go there and [00:19:00] the people at the counter. Know the customers and they're asking about their, their family and their husbands. And, and one lady was there and her husband had had a health problem and the lady said, well, we just got his favorite kind of cheese. Let me wrap that up. Take it home to him, you know, that maybe this will make him feel better. [00:19:20] And then the lady looked over to the corner and there's some, some of her friends sitting there, she went over to talk to them. And I just felt so sad. Because I've never experienced this. Hmm. And I'm just one generational away, right from this is how all business was done. And I just longed to, to, to walk in a place where people would know me and connect with me and to me. [00:19:49] Shopping is just anxiety. I, I, I don't even, I don't want to go anyplace. Right. You know, it's just a process for me of being overwhelmed and disappointed. So I'm, you know, that's [00:19:59] Sarah: [00:20:00] the introvert in us, right? We're [00:20:01] Mark: like, no, thanks. Yeah. You and I, you and I had a special show on that a few years ago. Yeah. Right. [00:20:06] Yeah. Yeah. After I shop, I just wanna go home and crawl under a blanket. Oh yeah. So so, so it, it's this idea of. We've always had this inside of us. This it's, it's in our D n A, it's this tribal sort of thing is on a deep psychological and sociological level. We have got to belong. And Sarah, this was one of the elements in my life that. [00:20:35] Provoked me that drove me to write this book. A few years ago, there was a headline in the New York Times that said The Loneliest Generation. Mm-hmm. And was referring to Gen Z. And it just, it just broke my heart how our children and these teenagers, they're just suffering. Suffering. They're so isolated and lonely and depressed. [00:20:59] And[00:21:00] as I said, look You know, this is a business book, but it's also a way I think we can at least. Be aware of these issues in our world and think about how this can have a positive impact on, on, you know, everybody today, not just young people. Young people. They're finding their own communities. I talk about this at the end of the book. [00:21:22] You know, they're, they're, they're moving into their own communities and to the extent that. Companies, and not just companies. Why I say companies. It could be a nonprofit, it could be a university, you know, it could be, you know, whatever. A, a un an insurance company, a symphony, whatever, a nonprofit the, I think the com, the, the organizations that are the most human, which I know is something close to your heart. [00:21:48] The companies and the organizations that are the most belonging. How, how would it look like in your. Company in your culture, in your marketing, if you thought we're gonna be [00:22:00] the most belonging company, it, it, it, it sort of, you know, presents an interesting idea of how you might approach marketing in a, in a different way. [00:22:11] Yeah, [00:22:11] Sarah: absolutely. So, and, and that story about this Italian shab, it's not just a beautiful story, but it's a, an excellent business case. Yeah. Cause. You know, how hard is it for a small shop like that to survive and them still existing after 40 years? Well, It has to have to do [00:22:30] Mark: something. Community. It's, it's been well, they've been there since 1903. [00:22:36] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not just, I was Generat four. Yeah. It had been 40 years since I had been there. Right. Yeah. But it's it's the same store. Yeah. They, they, yeah. It's, it's bigger now, but yeah. It's the same, it's the same store. [00:22:50] Sarah: Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I have a feeling like reading the book and I so resonate with this. [00:22:58] Because just like [00:23:00] anything in marketing marketer, marketers have a tendency to grab the latest Conta concept. So let's just say, okay, mark Schaffer, yay. He writes about communities, right? Yeah. And six months later, that's the latest marketing thing, right? It's like, just like we did with authenticity, just like we did with vulnerability, marketers are really good at jumping on these words and then abusing the crap out of them. [00:23:30] Yeah. And so what I really liked about your book, and you mentioned it several times, is this concept of letting go of control that. You cannot control a community growth. You cannot Yeah. You know, somehow market or Yeah. Kind of manipulate a community. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, talk to us about that. [00:23:56] Mark: Well, that's probably something you've learned [00:24:00] firsthand in your community, but, you know, give you a story that so when I started my community, I have a community On Discord, which I didn't really wanna be on Discord, but my community said, we wanna be on Discord. [00:24:12] So I'm giving up control. So here we are in Discord, thought, well, this is a community. This is a community that, you know, I kind of brought these people together and they're interested in the future of marketing. So they're probably interested in things I'm talking about, like personal branding and being a professional speaker and writing books. [00:24:34] So I created. My own little chat rooms thinking, oh, this is where we're gonna have interesting dialogue about these subjects. Now those rooms are the emptiest rooms on the whole site because they, they didn't wanna go there. They took it in completely different direction. They said, look, we wanna talk about the metaverse, we wanna talk about web three. [00:24:58] We wanna talk about chat, [00:25:00] G P T and artificial intelligence, and. They were right. We need to be talking about those things, right? They've taken me a whole new direction. It's, but that community has become my university. I'm learning from them. Almost every blog, post, podcast or speech I give the, a lot of the information and stories are coming out of that community, right? [00:25:24] So they're keeping me relevant because they're spread out all over the world. You know, teaching me what they're seeing is, is, is going on out there. [00:25:33] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that, that letting go of the control and, and almost like letting the community taking over that is Yeah. That is so big and it's, it's so, I think against what a lot of us business owners or marketers have learned where we, and I, and I also. [00:25:54] Remember you or mentioning that a community is definitely not an audience, [00:26:00] right? That distinction is so essential and yet, We see probably 90% of the people using the words interchangeably. They call a community, they, they say they have a community where they actually just have a free Facebook group where they sell their [00:26:16] Mark: programs. [00:26:17] Yeah. And I think the distinction is important because that's where the real power is. Right? You know, when people have an audience, And they say, this is my community. I say, well, the do do the people in the AU in your audience, do they know each other? Do they connect to each other? And the answer is no, cuz they're an audience. [00:26:37] Now I'm not. I mean, an audience is really important. I mean, I have an audience, right? And those are the people who buy things from me. So, I mean, audience is great, but. When people know each other and they build relationships, connections, and they collaborate and they do things together in new ways, that goodwill and [00:27:00] that emotion transfers to the brand. [00:27:04] This is one of the profound lessons I think in the book. I mean, I did a deep dig, deep dive on a lot of the psychology of community, the sociology of community, and almost suggests that, and this is hence at your point, that leadership in a community is like upside down compared to traditional marketing. [00:27:27] Yeah. You know leadership. And so instead of building the connection between the brand, And our audience. It's about building the connection between the audience members to create this community, because if you do that, it creates this layer of emotional switching costs. Mm-hmm. Like, these are my friends, this is my community. [00:27:49] I can never leave this brand cuz I never wanna leave this community. Right. So it, it, it, there's a lot of. Non-intuitive things about [00:28:00] community success That, that I'm, I'm learning firsthand. Yeah. [00:28:03] Sarah: And, and that's where I think you brought in the live event. And that's when I'm like, I. I'm a hundred percent convinced because I've been, you know, I had my community probably two, three years now, and I, what I've been learning is that there's a lot of unlearning first of all for the leader of the community, but then also for members of the community because I feel like as marketers we have kind of brainwashed. [00:28:34] Clients and customers into these membership site type things where people just come to consume content rather than to actually show up and Yeah. You know, express themselves and say, this is what works for me, what works for you, and collaborating, and so I've been kind of like, Yeah. Empower, giving power back to the people and saying, no, I [00:29:00] want you to show [00:29:01] Mark: up. [00:29:01] Yeah, that's a, that's, that's a really, really good point. You know, I, I had this conversation with a friend of mine last week. He has, has a community, but it's really an audience. Because it's, it's the, you know, he's, he's like creating content and it's premium content that you only get if you're in this community. [00:29:24] Right. And it, it, there's not really a lot of focus. I mean, that's a [00:29:28] Sarah: membership site. Yeah, it is. I think that type, yeah, that those three words, they're kind of like Yeah. Creating, yeah. [00:29:35] Mark: It's a membership site. Mm-hmm. You know, in my community. It is, it's free, it's open it, you know, it's, it's, it's like, you know, everybody is welcome to, to come in and give it a try. [00:29:47] You know, I, I do have like a, like a v i p section where it's like a small amount of money every year. And then, you know, we get, we have meetings with like legendary, legendary marketing people [00:30:00] and And that's a lot of fun. But I mean, at least 90% of the community is just there. It's free and we're just helping each other and it's very generous and very kind. [00:30:10] And you know, I made so many new friends and no many new connections. And of course, as I said, it's just become my number one place to, to learn about what's, what's new. I mean, I was really early. In the in the AI generated content around art, like mid journey and I mean, it was like people in my community said, have you seen this? [00:30:35] Get a membership, try this thing. And it was just like, oh my gosh. I mean this, like my, my jaw just dropped on the table. It was so unbelievable. And that, you know, I was early on chat G p t again because my community's like pulling me into these things, right? And, and, and I think that's a big part of being relevant today, not necessarily being an expert. [00:30:58] In everything, [00:31:00] but knowing enough to at least ask the right questions about everything. Just, you know, dabbling in the metaverse and web three and all these new things, and that the community's helping me remain relevant. What, what a gift is that? Now think about what that means to a big brand. Yeah. Is, is, is, you know Sarah, I saw this amazing quote. [00:31:21] Oh, I, I, I got hung on this. It was probably four years ago now. There's a quote by the C m O of Pepsi and he said the days of the big brand are over the big brand campaign. Campfires. Bonfires are over. And today it's about. Being relevant in cultural moments. And I thought that is fascinating, but what does that really mean? [00:31:54] How does that show up? And if you watch what some of these brands are doing now, they like, if there's like a [00:32:00] big award show like the Grammys or the Emmys or the Oscars and or, or there's like big festivals. One of the things Pepsi did for example, was there was some big like cultural festival. In, in New York and they created a soft drink, especially for this festival. [00:32:22] It tasted like zindel or something, right? I mean, I can't imagine how bizarre that would be, but it was a in a pink can. But you know, if, if you play this out, how can you be? What would be the platform to be relevant in these cultural moments? What would be more powerful than a community that's taking you into these moments? [00:32:45] Mm-hmm. Exposing you to these moments. Yeah. And, and I, I, so I think big company, small company solopreneur it, it, it, it's something that must be considered really for any kind of business right now. [00:33:00] Yeah, [00:33:00] Sarah: I absolutely agree. And, and, and I think one y you did say, okay, this is a business book, but business is so human today to come back to my favorite topic and, and yeah. [00:33:12] And so those are those humanizing moments, right? It's like, we're not, and that's why the. Let me build a community so that I can sell more stuff. Doesn't work, because that's not why humans gather. They don't, right. They don't come into a community to buy more. And so I think brands need to be super careful with that, you know, thing they, they can go completely wrong if they start selling into the community. [00:33:41] Mark: Yeah. That, that's the number one. Right. Reason why communities. Fail Yeah. Is because they say, okay, well, we'll start a community, but you know, this is gonna help us meet our, our quarterly sales numbers. And, you know, a company has to do that. I've, I've been in that world for a long time, but that's, that's gonna [00:34:00] drive your community away. [00:34:01] And it, you know, I, I think one of the gifts of this book, I hope people see this as a gift, is in chapter 10, I look at measurement. In an entirely new way. I mean, community and measurement. This has been just a, a thorn in the side of communities forever and. I give a case study in the book about these big sports drink brands, Gatorade versus Powerade, and I show the power of brand marketing where you sponsor events and you're, you know, you get connected to cultural moments and you know, maybe you sponsor the World Cup. [00:34:44] Well, okay, so if you sponsor the World Cup and your brand is everywhere. Does that sell more products? Yes. Can we measure that? No, [00:35:00] probably not. So I make this distinction between brand marketing and direct marketing. And what I'm showing is that almost every community is trying to manage it and measure it like direct marketing. [00:35:16] But if you do that, you, you miss the whole thing about trust. And loyalty and emotion and love and co-creation, collaboration and advocacy, you're missing the main event. Mm-hmm. And so you, if, if, if the community reports to the marketing department, which understands what brand marketing is, we kind of take that pressure off and, and we look at other measures. [00:35:43] That may not necessarily be directly tied to the bottom line, but we know it's a leading indicator of, of the bottom line. One of the biggest communities in the whole world is Sephora. Now Sephora is a cosmetics company. Do you have [00:36:00] Sephora over there? And We do. Yeah. They're, they're, they're based in Europe, I think. [00:36:03] Yeah. And they're French, right? I think maybe French. Yeah. They've got brick and mortar stores. In, in many, many countries, every major city in America has just a forest store, but 80% of their sales come from their online community. And their number one measure in their community is engagement because they see engagement as the leading indicator to to sales. [00:36:34] Mm-hmm. So it's, again, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's like, This turns the traditional marketing mindset kind of upside down. But this, I think this is where the world needs to go. I think 20 years from now, maybe 30 years from now, we're, we're gonna, the, the young people leading businesses today are already moving this direction. [00:36:59] They're [00:37:00] already moving to community. 85% of startups today are leading with community as they're. Main marketing idea. 30 years from now, the world's gonna look back at the period we're in now. And we're gonna say, remember those days we used to spam people. We used to interrupt people, intercept people. We used to bother them. [00:37:22] We used to fill their mailboxes with all this direct mail that wasn't even relevant to them anymore. What were we thinking? Okay. I'm so happy we read Mark's book 30 years ago. [00:37:36] Sarah: No, I, I have to say, like, I, I really feel like you pivoted or you kind of. Created this new path with Marketing Rebellion already. [00:37:46] Yes, exactly. Right. And now this is like, you know, for whoever is ready for the next. Paradigm, basically. I'm, I'm glad you picked up. I'm so glad to have you kind of, you know, forged this [00:38:00] path for people like myself, because that is the, I wanna cry, like, this is the biggest pushback I always got is like, you can't measure it. [00:38:08] You can't measure humane marketing. Yeah. And I felt like saying, so what? You know? Yeah. Right. This is the only way we gotta go. Yeah. And, and so now to say, well then if you don't listen to me, listen to Mark [00:38:21] Mark: Schaffer. Right? Yeah. I mean, it is, it is. And look, I'm like, I'm a measurement junkie. You know, I've, a lot of people don't know this about me, but I actually have the, the equivalent of a master's degree in statistics. [00:38:33] So, I mean, I'm all about the numbers. But you know, there was a very powerful quote from Marketing Rebellion that I actually repeated in, in the new book, and it's this idea. That you can either keep, keep pace with the, with the pulse of our culture, or you can measure, you probably can't do both. I mean, I, I, I, I think Sarah, there, there's [00:39:00] no business leader. [00:39:01] Anywhere right now that can't be feeling a little overwhelmed by the by the amount and velocity of change. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you, you've got to, to, you've gotta make that leap at some point to say, We've gotta go to market a different way. We can't keep holding. It's, it's a sickness. It literally is a sickness that we're holding on to this scaffolding of the old ways, you know, our, our relationships with ad agencies and producing, you know, glamorous television commercials. [00:39:35] Cause you know, cuz we can win an award for this and, and, and, and it, it's hard. To change our, our, our, the culture of our company to start embracing these new things. I think every company today should be taking at least 10% of their marketing budget and experimenting maybe on things you can't measure. [00:39:58] You have no, have no hope of [00:40:00] measuring to move more toward this human-centered. View of, of marketing. Because just because you can't measure it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I mean, there's a lot of things we can't measure. We can't measure, you know, wind, we can't, me, well, we can measure, we can't measure love, right? [00:40:19] We can't measure love. We can't measure. How good we feel on a, on a sunny day. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't go to the beach, doesn't mean we shouldn't fall in love. We need to take advantage of those things. And there are many things in marketing today, you know, we are in the early days, in the early stages, and especially young people today have entirely different expectations and of, of what they want from businesses and what they want from marketing. [00:40:47] And we've gotta start moving that way now. Gen Z. They're not babies. We just had the first member of Gen Z become elected to the United States Congress. Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] They're consumers, right? In the next five years, they're gonna be our leaders, right? And our procurement managers. So, and, and, you know, great entrepreneurs. [00:41:10] So, I mean, we need, we need to wake up. We really do. Yeah. We need to get rid of this, these sick, these sick, antiquated practices and, and wake up to, to, to deliver. You know, we're gonna stop doing things that people hate. Just stop it and then double down. How do you feel? [00:41:29] Sarah: Yeah. How, how do you feel about, so these, you know, the marketers that are out there now in, in, let's say in bigger companies, but even entrepreneurs, like, besides you, you reading your book, how are they, how are we gonna get them up to speed with these skills? [00:41:48] Because unfortunately, Unless they have the luck to have you at their, at a lecture in their university, they're still being taught marketing from the sixties. Yeah. [00:42:00] It's, it's such a big mismatch. And, and I see that in, in the online marketing sphere as well. We're still being marketed to like 20 years ago with all the shaming and manipulating and [00:42:12] Mark: on the lot. [00:42:13] Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting, Sarah, that a lot of the problem right now is actually even in the universities. I mean, the universities many universities are so far behind. Mm-hmm. You know, it, it, I, I think I. The slowest moving. Most bureaucratic organizations I've ever worked with are, are universities and these are the institutions sad that we're, that we're counting on to, to keep our, our students relevant. [00:42:42] And there's many young people coming outta universities that are, you know, connecting to me saying, I'm totally unprepared for the world. All this stuff I learned, nobody's even doing this stuff anymore. Yeah, so there's a lot of problems. There's a lot of issues. But here's the thing that gives me a lot of hope. [00:42:59] I. [00:43:00] First of all, there is change happening. Absolutely. Sarah. There have been people that have taken my Marketing rebellion book and said, this is the new framework. This is the way we're gonna go forward, not just small companies. There's a Fortune 100 company that, that contacted me and said, this is the way we need to go forward. [00:43:20] You know, how can you help us do this? So that's number one. Number two. I think the best leaders today, they wanna stay relevant. You know, to, if you are managing a brand, here is your mission. A brand is a never ending journey of relentless. Relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance to now, to this moment, to this year, to this culture. [00:43:49] That's it. That's your job. Yeah. And, and to be relevant, you, you, you, you, you've gotta move away from some of these things that people just see are [00:44:00] not relevant anymore. They don't even work anymore, right? So we've got to start reaching out. We've got to start experimenting. And I think what gives me hope is that, look, any, any. [00:44:12] Great professional today. They know this. They wanna be relevant, they wanna be relevant in their careers, they want their companies to be relevant and, and so I think my message is, is is gonna connect because it has to connect. [00:44:26] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. I do feel also always come back to Covid, but I do feel like it has helped with human evolution and of consciousness and people like, you know, never. [00:44:41] Like before they, they're like, we're done with this spammy marketing stuff. Like the, the kind of, I call it the bullshit The word is escaping me, but, but like the trigger, you know, is likes meter. We know, we can tell that this is all fakes and that that's so, [00:45:00] so I do feel, yeah, there's this gap between consciousness that has risen and some of the, the marketing stuff that is just so outdated. [00:45:09] But yeah, like you, I totally believe in humanity and, and I be believe that people. Feel it, like you could just feel it that there's this craving for, for belonging and, and so [00:45:21] Mark: I'm just Yeah. Oh, that, I mean, you talk about measurement that is documented. I mean, it, it, it's, it's just coming at us in every, every day, in every way. [00:45:32] It's, it's all over the news here in America. And I mean, just like two weeks ago I saw this statistic that was just incredible that. Of the young people aged 18 to 24, 50 1% of them had sought medical treatment for a mental health issue. Hmm. The average for every other generation, including, you know, my generation is 24%. [00:45:59] [00:46:00] Wow. Yeah. For young people today, it's 51% and the average for every other generation is 24%. There's something really wrong here going on. Mm-hmm. And you know, look, my book is not Pollyannish saying, Hey, start a community and change the world. I'm saying, look, There's a, there's a real marketing urgency to consider new ideas like this. [00:46:26] And oh, by the way, it's, it's gonna do some, it's gonna do some good for the people in your community. [00:46:33] Sarah: Yeah. I, I really feel this more so than in other, in, in the other books that, that you come from this place of. Let go of the ego and tap into the love. That's there's some warmth, you know, even though it's a business book, I feel like there's some warmth reading this. [00:46:51] And then, yeah. And that's also the, the thing that we need. Now it's like, you know, how can you have a community that is Cold and [00:47:00] based on Eagle. Well that's not gonna work. So there definitely has to be yeah, the warmths as well. I wanna tap into also kind of the bridging it to the technology piece to, to wrap up, because it could almost be like a paradox, you know, it's like, wait, wait a minute, okay. [00:47:18] We have this problem with technology, young people, too much technology, and yet, You are talking about technology and AI and in web three in the last part of the book, so draws this picture, how do they fit together? [00:47:35] Mark: Well, first of all, thank you for reading all the way to the end of the book. [00:47:40] Sarah: That was a test, you [00:47:42] Mark: know? [00:47:42] And you know, I'll tell you some of the, some of the most interesting. Things I have in the book are at the end and, and I thought, gosh, maybe I should put this up more towards the beginning so people can make sure I make sure they see that well. So there are [00:48:00] two big issues I, I talk about at the end of the book, technological changes and sociological changes. [00:48:06] They kind of go together that. Are suggesting there are gonna be very new kinds of communities in the future, and businesses need to be waking up. Whether you have a community or you just want to tap into a community, a certain demographic of consumers, you've gotta be aware of what's going on. Number one, on the technology side. [00:48:31] We hear these mysterious words like Web three and NFTs and Metaverse, and the irony is there isn't really a good definition for any of those things. Maybe NFTs come, come closest, but you know, people have really wild, wide, varying ideas of what the Metaverse is gonna be or what Web three is going to be. [00:48:52] But when you cut through all the jargon, What you really end up with is new ways for [00:49:00] people to belong and especially young people today, are just surging into these areas. So we've gotta be aware of what's happening, what's going on there, how these communities are being created, and consider if that's one of the ways we need to be relevant. [00:49:18] On the sociological side, young people today, they want to be. Invisible. They don't wanna be found, they don't wanna be discovered. They don't wanna be criticized and bullied and and marketed to. So today, much of our marketing is dependent on social listening platforms that tap into Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook. [00:49:45] Well, guess what? Young people today, they're not there. Mm-hmm. They're not there at all. It's amazing to me. Sometimes I do guest lectures at, you know, universities. Even like people in graduate school today, they're not [00:50:00] on LinkedIn. You know, it's, it's, it's crazy. So where are they? They're on Discord, they're on maybe they're on TikTok. [00:50:10] They're on you know, communities in the Metaverse, they're on Fortnite, they're on Twitch. Guess what? Social listening platforms aren't there. The, you know, millions and millions of people are having brand conversations in places we can't see, right? So, Just like you mentioned, marketing Rebellion was a bit of a wake up call. [00:50:34] I think this book, you know, part of it is a solution and part of it is a. You know, knock on the head as well to say the world is changing in rapid and unexpected ways, and we don't have all the answers right now, but be aware of what is going on. And, and like I said, gen Z, they're not babies. They're consumers, right? [00:50:56] With growing, growing, you know, [00:51:00] economic power. So this, this is not something to put off and we really need to think about this now. Yeah. [00:51:07] Sarah: Yeah. And, and, and I do also see this theme of letting go of control, right? The, the Gen Z doesn't want control, and so they want this connections of trust with the, with the not Bitcoin. [00:51:21] The other one. The, the NFTs blockchain. Yeah, the blockchain, you know, kind of like, okay, I can trust this connection because it's decentralized and, and so all of these topics that for us right now, I. They've most markers I would assume kind of sounds like Chinese. And so they have to, really, what you're saying is basically almost, you have to have one person per department stay on top of the new stuff, right? [00:51:51] It's like, yeah, yeah. [00:51:52] Mark: Go. Yeah. I, I, I, I think, you know, if you've got that kind of luxury, I mean, Sarah Wilson is someone I feature in my book. [00:52:00] She is former Facebook, former Instagram writes for Harvard Business Review, sort of looking at Gen Z culture and Zen Gen Z marketing strategies and, and she says rather boldly in the book, she said, I think it's time I. [00:52:16] Just to find the youngest person in your marketing department and say, pay attention to this because I don't understand it. [00:52:23] Sarah: Yeah. I saw that quote and I was like, lucky me. I have two sons, 16 and 19. They tell [00:52:29] Mark: me all the insights. Well, yeah. I, I, I, I mentor my, my kids are grown, but I mentor young kids. Yeah. [00:52:36] And I mean, I'm always asking them, what are you doing? What are you seeing? Exactly. Let me, Let me watch you play Roblox. Why did you do that? Yeah. Yeah. Why did you buy that? [00:52:47] Sarah: Yeah. And all the ad blockers, just like you said, right? It's like everywhere. Yeah. [00:52:51] Mark: I wanna, I, I gotta watch my, my kids I mentor play Fortnite cuz I die every time I can't. [00:52:57] It's like, what's the use? I die [00:53:00] immediately, which makes them laugh, but, you know, so I've gotta watch them. I gotta watch them do it. Yeah. [00:53:06] Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I really appreciated this time with you, mark. I, I'm totally with you. Community is, is the way to go and I think we have a lot to learn from the communities, especially the marketers who think, you know, you just throw up a website and a pay button and then there you go. [00:53:26] You have your community. I think it's time to step back and come. Yeah. Step back from the ego and come with this humble learner approach to say, okay, what can I learn from this community? Yeah. That's the way I look at it. And it sounds like you do too. [00:53:42] Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. It's always delight. [00:53:46] Yeah, likewise talking to you. It's nice to find such a, I, I think we're of one mind and one heart when it comes to marketing, so it's for sure good to find. It's good to find an ally out there. [00:53:58] Sarah: Thank you. Thank you. Do you [00:54:00] mention the names of your books again and your website so people can [00:54:03] Mark: find Yeah. [00:54:03] The books we talked about today are marketing Rebellion. We didn't mention known, but you know, we, the book on personal branding I think is extremely relevant today. I think personal branding, when you get down to it can be. It's, it's everything in, in many ways when it comes to our careers and marketing. [00:54:23] And then my new book is called Belonging to the Brand. My Community is the Last Great Marketing Strategy and you can find my blog, my podcast, my books on my social media [00:54:39] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question. Mark, what are you grateful for today or [00:54:43] Mark: this week? Right now. [00:54:46] Well, I'm grateful for so much. I'm grateful for, for my, for my health right now. I've, I've gone through a, a, a week of of of illness here and I'm I'm grateful for we talked a lot about community, but I'm also really grateful [00:55:00] for the, your audience, my audience, the out there that, that supports me in so many ways. [00:55:05] That's, that's just incredibly humbling just to be interested in my work and support my work. So I'm grateful for, for you and your listeners today. Thank you, [00:55:15] Sarah: mark. Always a pleasure to hang out. [00:55:18] Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. [00:55:27] Sarah: Whether you are a community member or are thinking about creating your own community, I hope you found this episode with Mark. Really, really helpful. I know I did find out more about Mark and his and check out my two favorite books from him, marketing Rebellion. And belonging to the brand. [00:55:49] You can find them on his website or directly at Amazon. And if you're looking for a community of like-minded humane marketers, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:56:00] You can find out more at Humane. Dot Marketing slash circle. You find the show notes of this slash H 1 64, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business. [00:56:19] Manifesto and the free, gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. [00:56:43] Speak soon.[00:57:00]
57:35 5/19/23
Promotion: Cornerstone content: A great strategy to attract the right clients
In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I talk to Meg Casebolt, founder of Love At First Search, about search engine optimization (SEO) and specifically about Cornerstone content. We discuss the basic steps to optimize a website for search, using empathy in keyword research, whether to aim for high traffic or low competition keywords, how to write Cornerstone content, the length and structure of the content, and how fast to expect results. We also touch on the evolution of search with the arrival of AI and so much more. Meg Casebolt is the founder of Love At First Search and host of the Social Slowdown podcast. Meg loves to help businesses spend less time trying to hack the algorithms and instead creates SEO content that attracts your ideal audience to your website while helping entrepreneurs cut their dependency on social media for their business visibility. It was never her vision to run an agency, but as her reputation grew, she made the decision to build a team of women that could support these mostly women-owned businesses in a powerful, feminist way - to help them climb the ranks and get their digital voices heard in a crowded marketplace. Today we're talking about websites, or more specifically about generating traffic to our websites. Meg and I also discuss: How SEO is combining the tech with the human need Basic steps to get your website optimized for search Keyword research - myths and truths How we can use empathy in our keyword research Whether to write content for the keywords or for our people How Meg thinks search will evolve (with the arrival of AI) And much more Ep 163 transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. [00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my own. Almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at [00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring friends back, podcast, have a look at offer conversation on my website, website Promotion Humane, and I'm talking to Casebolt about seo. Search engine optimization and specifically about cornerstone content, which Meg will explain in this episode. [00:02:34] If you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. But if you're new here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at Humane. [00:02:54] Dot marketing slash one page. That's the number one in the word [00:03:00] page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a blueprint where it tells you what to do, but it really invites you to think for yourself and, uh, think about these different peas for your business. [00:03:19] So here's a little info on Meg. Meg Case Vault is the founder of Love at First Search and host of the Social Slowdown podcast. Meg loves to help businesses spend less time trying to hack the algorithms, and instead creates SEO content that attracts your ideal audience to your website while helping entrepreneurs cut their dependency on social media for their business visibility. [00:03:45] It was never her vision to run an agency, but as her reputation grew, she made the decision to build a team of women that could support these mostly women owned businesses in a powerful feminist way to help them climb the [00:04:00] ranks and get their digital voices heard in a crowded marketplace. So today we're talking about websites or more specifically about generating traffic to our websites. [00:04:11] We address how. SEO is combining the tech with the human need. Basic steps to get your website optimized for search keyword research, myths and truths, how we can use empathy in our keyword research, whether to write content for the keywords or for our people. How Meg thinks search will evolve with the arrival of AI and so much more. [00:04:39] So, are you ready for seo for Humane Marketers? Well, then let's talk to Meg. Hey Meg, good to speak to [00:04:47] Meg: you. It's so good to be here with you. Thank you for having me, Sarah. [00:04:51] Sarah: Thanks. We just recorded another episode where I was the guest on your podcast and now you're here. I just love doing those. It's, it's when you [00:05:00] really get a feel for the human, you know? [00:05:02] It's not like, oh, we're just pitching each other for being a podcast guest, and then we never speak again this week. Like, yeah, we get to know each other a little bit, [00:05:11] Meg: so, And I think when you find somebody that you resonate with, the reciprocity comes naturally versus more of a, you know, well, you know, you scratch my back, I scratch, yours doesn't feel good, but hey, this, we have different things to say to different audiences, but there's a lot of alignment in there, so let's talk to both of these different groups. [00:05:30] It feels really good, you know? [00:05:32] Sarah: Exactly. It's not just like, oh, because. Yeah, you pay me now. I pay you back. [00:05:38] Meg: Yeah, that's true. Collaboration versus reciprocity, right? Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:43] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So your business is called, uh, love at First Search, and I just want you to start there and, and explain what that means. Well, I kind of gave it away in the intro, but still, uh, tell us, you know, how he came up with [00:06:00] that and. [00:06:01] And just, yeah, the word love already gives it away. Right? So like, tell us, give us more info [00:06:07] Meg: on that. Sure, so love it. First Search is a search engine optimization firm where we're helping small businesses mostly to be found on search engines like Google or Bing, but also YouTube is a search engine and any podcast, wherever you're listening to this podcast, that's also a search engine. [00:06:26] So we're talking a lot to content creators, um, about how to bring in people who. Want to hear your message, how to create content that makes them feel. Seen and valued and appreciated and understood. Uh, a lot of search engine marketing is like a numbers game. It is what is the keyword that you can that has the right amount of search volume, and also it has the low keyword difficulty and not too competitive in terms of our AdWords numbers. [00:06:59] And like, [00:07:00] there's a lot of metrics around it. Um, And I've had several clients come to me and say, I tried search before and my consultants all tried to push me in a direction that didn't feel good. Um, and so what we are trying to do at Love at First Search is show up in the search results that feel like we understand what our clients need from us, not just what is the most obvious opportunity we want it to feel relevant. [00:07:30] To what people need versus just kind of a spray and pray approach to marketing. [00:07:36] Sarah: Yeah, I love that. That is such a more human and humane way of explaining just, just the word s e o alone. Right? If you hear that, and I know that there's a lot of people. Who have never heard of seo, right? Mm-hmm. They have their websites, they're coaches or healers or, or consultants even. [00:07:58] Uh, and so [00:08:00] whenever we use an abbreviation that assumes that they are supposed to know what it means, but they don't, and then they feel really embarrassed and they're like, oh, I, should I be doing that? What's that? Mm-hmm. Right? And so the, the way you explain it makes so much more sense. Also for people who, who are in humane business because it's, it's not just, it's not just a keyword. [00:08:25] It, it is about this idea of resonating with ideal clients, right? So, yeah, I love [00:08:31] Meg: that. And I think a lot of times when people think about surge engine optimization, about s e o as a marketing tactic, um, they see it as a mass marketing tactic of how many people can I get in front of? Um, but. As we know from the ways that kind of the pendulum is swinging in the digital marketing world, it's not necessarily about quantity anymore. [00:08:55] Um, if you're running, I mean, it is for specific, some specific types of businesses. If you're [00:09:00] running sort of more of a blog or content platform type of business where the number of podcast downloads that, that you get impacts your sponsorship packages and the number of paid views that you get impacts your, you know, cost per visit, like, There is a place for those kinds of businesses where you can be a, a free resource because you have these, these backup monetization options. [00:09:24] But for so many of us, that's not how we're getting paid. We're getting paid because we are service providers or we sell very specific products to a small group of dedicated people. [00:09:39] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. [00:09:40] Meg: And often the solutions that we're helping our, our audience with are not mass market solutions. We're not Nike trying to sell shoes to everybody. [00:09:50] We're like, I wanted to sell, you know, shoe insoles to joggers who, uh, have planter fasciitis, right? Like we get really [00:10:00] targeted down and we solve. Problems that people have. So why not? When those people are having those problems, why not be the ones that show up and help help those people in your audience to feel like they're understood? [00:10:15] Sarah: Yeah, that is such a good point that you, that you mention people are humans, right? Because what we usually hear is traffic or generating traffic. But when you think about traffic, you either see like, you know, a huge traffic jam on a highway and what you see there is cars. You don't see humans or on the internet, you think of traffic. [00:10:43] I don't see humans, when I think of internet traffic, I just, right. See like. Empty nothing. You know, it's like maybe wires or, or something like [00:10:51] Meg: that. And so much of the, the noun choices, the word choices that are used in the mass marketing approach and, uh, you've said like hype marketing or [00:11:00] bro marketing, like the, the phrases and choices that we make are traffic and users and page views and visitors. [00:11:09] They're, it's very, um, The leads, right? Like they're not, they're prospects. Um, especially when we get into like really metric space where it's like, these are the marketing qualified leads and these are the sale qualified leads. And they're not even people anymore. They're just s qls. Right? Like, and there's, there is a place for trying to figure out where your marketing resonates and where people may or may not fit for your messaging. [00:11:32] Right? But when we start to zoom out that far, we lose sight of Sure. You have. Hundred thousand users on your website. Every single one of those is a human sitting at a computer scrolling through your [00:11:49] Sarah: words. Exactly. Yeah. So you talk about using empathy in keywords, and so that already is kind of like I. [00:11:58] Feels like an oxymoron. It's like [00:12:00] what? Empathy keywords, how does that go together? I'm, I'm seeing like spreadsheets with empathy and I'm like, Hmm. How does that work? So tell us how that works. [00:12:10] Meg: Uh, I think, I think the core of how we need to do marketing better is not just, you know, look at the spreadsheet and figure out the easiest solution, but truly understanding. [00:12:26] Why our businesses exist, what they do for our audience, and like how we can really start to have that connection with them. And a lot of times, I don't know exactly how to explain this. Let me, you know, a lot of times when people are having some sort of problem or issue, they don't necessarily want to ask their friends for help. [00:12:53] They don't want to go on Facebook. Um, if, if you're a health coach and you're helping clients who have [00:13:00] Crohn's disease, Then they have a lot of symptoms that are not things that you want your friends to know about. We'll just leave that as like a nice clean answer there. Um, but when people have those kinds of problems, they go to search engines and they go like, I'm having a constant stomach ache. [00:13:19] Right? That's the nicest, cleanest way to say it. Um, there's a lot of poop keywords out there, so I'll try not to get too heavy in that. But, um, you know, the. They don't want people to know, but Google feels like a safe place to get slightly unbiased answers to questions that you don't wanna go on Facebook and say to people like, I'm struggling in my marriage and I'm thinking about getting a divorce, or, my child is struggling with this and, and like, there's a lot of pride that people have and they want to present themselves to their friends, to their, their networks as having it all together, but, When it comes to search, that's a safe place to ask the questions [00:14:00] that you don't feel safe asking in other places. [00:14:02] Sarah: Yeah, it, it reminds me of an exercise we do in the marketing, like we're human program where we look at the empathy map. Yes, you've seen this, right? Mm-hmm. Where you think about your ideal client and you, um, think of what they say, think, feel, and do. Mm-hmm. I don't know if I got the order correctly, but, but yeah, it's exactly that. [00:14:24] It's like, what are they thinking or, or what are they Googling would be a good way also to, to say it, right. What are they Googling? But they're never gonna say that in a first session with you, right? Mm-hmm. It's like, it's the embarrassing things that. If you then, and I guess what you're saying is where the empathy shows up is if you then write a post that in addresses that issue with empathy, not with shaming, of course. [00:14:54] Mm-hmm. Then they feel heard and seen because they just found a. The solution and [00:15:00] they found the human who offers that solution. [00:15:03] Meg: Yeah, sometimes it's not even like the post absolutely can be empathetic and that will help with the conversion, but just seeing the name of the post show up in those search results can sometimes be a validation of the experience. [00:15:16] Mm-hmm. You know, I was talking yesterday with a play therapist in Virginia and some of her keywords will be very obvious, like, Play therapy, Virginia, right? Like her specific town. Um, she's works specifically with adoptive families, so it's like play therapy for adoptive children. Um, so sometimes the keywords can be very clear, but we also tried to get to the empathy of it. [00:15:37] What are the problems that these children are exhibiting? That they're getting the calls from school saying Your child seems to have anxiety, or the preschooler is biting. What are those things that they, the, the parent doesn't know where to go. The parent doesn't know what to do next. Or the, they're, they're like, oh, my kid's [00:16:00] about to get kicked outta preschool cuz they're hitting and bit, what can I do to help them? [00:16:03] Right? Like when people have problems they go seeking solutions. And if you can be that port in the storm, that safe place to say, I know what to I'm, yeah, my kid bit too. I know how to help them work through that. I know how to help you as a parent, work through it with them. You're not alone, because just by the fact that this is showing up in those search results, it proves that I've been there. [00:16:30] Mm-hmm. And I can help you with it. There's a certain amount of connection that happens in just having your experience acknowledged. [00:16:38] Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. From there, you then, So, so now we're kind of, kind of learning, okay, to do keyword research, but coming from this place of empathy, right? Mm-hmm. So all of a sudden it doesn't just feel like this left brain analytical mm-hmm. [00:16:57] Uh, activity because we're bringing in the right brain [00:17:00] and actually thinking, well, what would they be searching for? How can I really show empathy and help them with their problem? So we're doing the research, uh, the keyword research. What's the next step? So how, or, or maybe already still like. You talked quickly before, volume and, uh, difficulty of, of competition and all that. [00:17:25] Tell us what we need to look for, uh, in these keywords. [00:17:29] Meg: Well, so let's define keyword research before we leap too much into sort of the strategy behind it. Right. So when we, keyword research is another one of those phrases that can feel overwhelming because people go, oh, that's a lot of spreadsheets. Um, keyword research is. [00:17:44] Figuring out what people are typing into Google. That's it. And those phrases that you sit down and you type in, or you know, most of us are doing it from our phones now sometimes us are speaking into Siri for it, right? But, [00:18:00] um, whatever you are asking, Google is your keyword. So it doesn't have to be one word, it can be a phrase, it can be a question, it can be a statement. [00:18:10] Um, anything that you can search is a keyword word. Now the next step, like you said, is to figure out for not necessarily every page on your website, but every page on your website can be found for different keywords. So it's not that you have to be found for, you know, humane business coach, and that is the only phrase and you have to put it on every page of your website so that people who are looking for that can find that one phrase and you have to put all your eggs in that basket. [00:18:42] Um, this is not the Lord of the Rings. There is no like one keyword to rule them all. This is an, and one of the reasons I love SEO and I feel like I can talk about this with you, is like it's an abundance mindset. Mm. Mm-hmm. This isn't a scarcity thing where like, I have to be found for SEO consultant or nobody [00:19:00] will ever find me. [00:19:01] This is what are all the different on-ramps to this highway that different people need at different points, but the destination is the same. Right. Yeah. So you can, you can be found for that one phrase of humane businesses or gentle marketing. Like you can have those sort of branded search terms where you have spent time to build a brand around the titles of your books and the titles of your business and the, you know, your community name. [00:19:30] Like those are branded search, but we also have search terms that are just like, what do people need from us? What questions do they ask and each of those concepts each, I call them keyword clusters, but each of those search intents can go to a different page of your website. It doesn't all have to filter in through your homepage. [00:19:56] Your copy doesn't have to convert all from right there. You have [00:20:00] the opportunity to create infinite number of entry points. So every podcast episode that you record can be found for a hundred different search terms. How cool is that? It's very cool. [00:20:14] Sarah: It's very cool if you, if you, if you know how to do that keyword research. [00:20:20] Mm-hmm. Because I think also maybe what you need to explain is this idea of, you know, the volume and the, the difficulty of actually ranking. Because 15 years ago when I started out, it was relatively okay. You know, you could rank. Highly, pretty not, I'm not gonna say easily, but it was definitely much easier than today. [00:20:44] Today we have so much content out there. You do have to have a certain knowledge about, you know, what do people search, how much do they search for that? And then also how much content does already exist. [00:21:00] That is. Optimized, I think you would say for that keyword word, right? [00:21:04] Meg: Yeah. You just nailed the, the three big things is what do people search for? [00:21:08] How many people search for it and how many other people have written about it. Um, and that's where some of those search metrics come into place is figuring out, not just like, what are people saying, but if I were to target this idea, could I actually show up for it? Right? And so sometimes people aim too high. [00:21:30] And they go, I'm gonna try to be found for online business without that recognition of, but why? Mm-hmm. I'm like, why that phrase? Oh cuz I'm an online business coach. Um, okay. Cool. But what do you, what do you help people with? What do you do differently? What are your what, how, what about your approaches different? [00:21:50] Um, we have a student right now in one of our programs who is, she calls herself a, a conscious business coach for changemakers, which is not a phrase that. [00:22:00] Anybody would know to look for, right? Um, but she does really well in a post that she has about why she doesn't do discovery calls and how you can run, uh, a more, um, streamlined and better feeling business if you have an alternative to discovery calls. [00:22:16] And the phrase that shows up is alternative to discovery calls. Hmm. [00:22:22] Sarah: Wow. Go figure. Yeah, [00:22:23] Meg: sometimes it doesn't have to be, you know, hundreds of thousands of people searching for a keyword. But those people who are going to Google after doing another discovery call that tanked, and they're going, oh, how do I stop doing discovery calls? [00:22:37] And they find her website. But [00:22:38] Sarah: here's the question. How did she come up? Like how did she think of. Using that as a keyword, or was that just a fluke? And then she noticed, and [00:22:49] Meg: sometimes it's a fluke, right? Sometimes you stumble into a phrase and you sudden, and you can use the metrics to figure out what that is. [00:22:58] I'd be happy to teach people how to go into their [00:23:00] Google search console and go, you know, there are ways to know exactly what every single phrase is that people find you for, but sometimes. In her case in particular for Caroline, it was like, I just know that people would come into that and then go to my contact form and then say, I found you through this blog post. [00:23:17] Nice. It doesn't always have to be this like automated user flow. What's the conversion rate from each landing page? It's important information. Yeah. But sometimes you can get the same information from a conversation. Yeah. [00:23:32] Sarah: So [00:23:33] Meg: nice. And then if you're trying to figure out what to create next that might attract those ideal clients, like listen to your ideal clients. [00:23:42] What else don't they like about what's happening in the online, in her case, in the online or your case too? Probably. Like what's, what are those things that they don't like? Okay. Create blog posts or podcast episodes about your unique approach to it, right? Yeah. [00:24:00] And your content can come either from, you know, the key being keyword driven. [00:24:07] Which is making sure that you know that exact phrase that people are looking for and then putting it when you're, when you're publishing the document for the first time, you can say, okay, I'll put this in my SEO title and my, my blog post title and my subheadings and my alt text. Like there's a way to do it that way, but I find that for a lot more of my kind of heart-centered marketers that I work with, it can be easier to create something. [00:24:33] Think about what would people search. If they needed this, include some of that thought process into the post and then hit publish and wait and see what happens. [00:24:45] Sarah: Hmm. Okay. [00:24:47] Meg: It doesn't always have to be driven from the keywords. It can be what resonates and then how can I optimize what's already working? [00:24:56] Sarah: Right. Yeah. So, so flipping it on its head [00:25:00] and starting. Instead of starting with the strategy, starting with the empathy, because you're writing content that your ideal clients, uh, will resonate with, and then seeing, okay, this works. This one doesn't. Let me take the one that works and make it even better and more optimized for the, the search [00:25:19] Meg: engine. [00:25:20] Exactly. And it can also, if you, if you, if, if that approach. Resonates with you, then it can also feel a lot more connected to the needs of your clients and take away some of that perfectionism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's absolutely a feeling when you have some sort of like, I'm gonna spend so much time writing these blog posts, and I wanna make sure that they show up and search results right away, and if I don't get it right, then what's the point? [00:25:49] Right. But if we're creating for our audience first and then optimizing for search second, then you know what it, [00:26:00] this is everything about marketing is the 80 20 rule, right? The Pareto principle, that 20% of your work creates 80% of your results. So if you publish things and you also send them out to your newsletter and you, you know, share them wherever your audience is and 20% of them bring in search traffic, then maybe that's. [00:26:21] That's actually very normal. Um, but then when people land on the pages that are working for search, then you can link to them to the other ones that are still valuable, that are still important, but are still part of your unique approach to things. And once people arrive on your website, then they can go explore that information. [00:26:40] We don't need to be found for every search result. We need to be introduced and then let your website tell your story. [00:26:49] Sarah: Basically what you're saying is you, you don't need every page or every block post to bring you, you know, all this traffic because if you just have one or [00:27:00] two or three or, or I know, obviously the more the better. [00:27:03] But if you just have a few that really work and. And they can really work. Like, they can really work. Some of them is like, oh my God, you know, all of a sudden you're like getting tons and tons of new signups to your, to your, uh, freebie or whatever. Mm-hmm. So, so yeah, that's enough, right? It's, and then like you said, you just link it to your other blog posts so that, um, so that people could still discover more, more content. [00:27:31] I guess that also leads us to this idea of. Cornerstone pages because that's another thing you mentioned when we, uh, exchanged by email. Um, so yeah, was what you described already, maybe an example of a cornerstone page where you linked to other. [00:27:49] Meg: Not, not quite. There is, there is what it is. Something relevant there, so. [00:27:53] Mm-hmm. Um, what we were talking about earlier with some of these metrics around, you know, there are certain amounts of keywords [00:28:00] that a lot of people are looking for, but other people have talked about, so it can be harder to rank for those terms. Right. Um, It can be really helpful if you're in that boat to create a longer piece of content that shares everything that you've created on a topic. [00:28:16] So you know, you might create a, a piece of cornerstone content called the Humane Approach to Online Business Marketing. The ultimate, well, you can almost think of these as like ultimate guides. Everything you need to know about this topic, humane marketing, one-on-one, whatever we wanna call that post, right, where you've talked about humane marketing on. [00:28:39] Every page of your website, right? Every single one. Well, maybe this is not maybe the right phrase for you because it is your domain name, so it'll go to your homepage. Well, we can talk about that. I'm, I'm spitballing here a little bit. Um, but let's, let's think about that core value that you have or that core idea, that category that you're talking about. [00:28:56] There. There can be a point where you can create an outline of what [00:29:00] are the, the framework, what are the principles that I'm talking about all the time, and what have I already created that supports this? Mm. And then you can create one ultimate guide that covers all of that. And if we're talking about a phrase like humane marketing, gentle marketing, ethical marketing, that's sprinkled throughout your website, Google doesn't always know like, what is the right page? [00:29:28] Mm-hmm. To share that information. Um, But if you have a guide on your website that's longer, that links to all those other things and that all those other places around the website where you've talked about that, it links back to that guide, that cornerstone content. Sometimes it's called silo content. I. [00:29:48] Then that is a clear indicator to Google that that is the place on your website for that term. And you can rank for terms that a lot of other people have talked about. If they haven't gone [00:30:00] into the level of detail that you have in that guide, then you can like, Jump up ahead of them in those search results because you've created something that is better quality that positions you as a, an authority on that topic, and that proves to Google that you know what you're talking about. [00:30:16] And so that's what we're talking about with cornerstone content. And I often talk to podcasters who are like, I have a hundred episodes talking about this particular topic. And I'm like, okay. Create, you know, an overview guide. Basically take take a, a. Piece of thread and tie a narrative through the most important things that you're talking about. [00:30:36] Mm-hmm. Um, for my podcast, we created a cornerstone guide called, um, mental Health, entrepreneurship and Social Media, because nobody's talking about those three pieces together. Right. Yeah, [00:30:49] Sarah: I love that. And so did you research whether there is search volume for mental health and social media? [00:30:57] Meg: Yeah, so it was conversations that I was having [00:31:00] on the podcast already with therapists and social workers and you know, like I was having those conversations already. [00:31:07] The content was already created. Mm-hmm. And I knew that it was a topic that we wanted to discuss more. And I was starting to see some of these keywords show up in our metrics around mental health and entrepreneurship or around social media. Anxiety was a phrase that we targeted for that particular page. [00:31:25] Um, And so we wrote a longer post that was just like, here are the entrepreneurs that we've interviewed who talked about anxiety. Here are the ones that, uh, and, and here are the mental health professionals that we've interviewed. And we took poll quotes from their episodes and then linked to those episodes. [00:31:41] So if people are looking for that, they, it's basically like, almost like a playlist, right, of what's already been created. But instead of just a list of hero, the things that we've created in this category, we're telling a story in that post. So here's what [00:31:56] Sarah: I just finished, um, is, uh, a hugely [00:32:00] long, uh, post about humane marketing words we love. [00:32:04] Ooh. And so it goes through all these wor words like abundance and intuition, integrity and conscious, like all of these words that I use all over the book. And then I linked, yeah, to. Podcasts or, or, or blog posts or so. So would that be an example of a, uh, cornerstone page? Totally. Even though there, there's probably no search volume for humane marketing words yet, right? [00:32:33] Meg: So ye yes and no. So the thing about cornerstone content is that it is a guide in one place. And in your case, it's almost like a thought leadership. Mm-hmm. Piece of cornerstone content so that when more people become aware of these terms, um, they can then, like Google will already know that it exists. [00:32:52] You're ahead of the curve, hopefully. Mm-hmm. Um, but the great thing about it is that. Now it exists. [00:33:00] Right. And sure, Google can find it and they can send you traffic for it, but it's still an incredibly powerful asset in your business, right? [00:33:08] Sarah: Yeah. It's thinking of using it like in the menu bar, um, like as a start here or [00:33:13] Meg: something like that. [00:33:14] Mm-hmm. I would say a start here button, I could say, I could see you calling it almost like a, a term glossary. Mm-hmm. Like a humane marketing term glossary. Like what? What is it? It's use that people might need from it. They might go, oh, what are all these terms? Like how would you define these things? [00:33:29] Right. Um, So you could include it on your homepage and say, come check out our humane dark marketing glossary. Mm-hmm. To give people that idea of what is that resource for them? Right? Yeah. Um, but then also every page on your website that is linked from that, that glossary, you can then link back to it. Mm mm-hmm. [00:33:51] So if somebody listens to your episode about abundance, And then goes to the show notes, and then checks out the glossary, and then [00:34:00] goes and listens to the one about, uh, consciousness. Right? Like it can be a, a piece of, sometimes they'll call it hub content, right? Yeah. That it doesn't have to just be there for Google. [00:34:11] It can be a really great navigation tool. Um, and maybe, I mean, maybe you wanna turn it into a downloadable PDF that people can have as a [00:34:20] Sarah: guide. Right. Yeah. That would be another option. Exactly. I saw that's that's what you have because it's so long. Right? It's like, well, well you want a PDF of [00:34:29] Meg: that? Yeah. [00:34:30] When people get to, we have a cornerstone guide on the Loveit first search website. No, I was talking about the podcast, um, cornerstone a minute ago. But we have one on our loveit first search site that is just like, here's our 15 step approach to creating a really search friendly website. Um, And the, the post itself is 7,500 words. [00:34:48] It is a short novel. Um, it's a novel. It's, it's a novel. It's a blog post novella. You don't have to write that much. I, this is what I do. Right? Like, this is what we do best. Um, yours does not. [00:35:00] Absolutely. It can be, it can be. I. 1500 words and still be considered cornerstone content. Right. So don't feel like that's the norm. [00:35:05] Mm-hmm. Um, this was a labor of love that we put together last year. It took me 50 hours to create That's not normal. Yeah, right. But knowing that it is a 7,500 word blog post, our calls to action on the cornerstone guide for the first third of it, for the first like 2000 words is like, Yeah, this is really long. [00:35:25] Do you just want me to email this to you? Do you want me to, to just, so we send it as a pdf d and then we send follow up emails that, you know, we turned it into an automated funnel to make, to break it down and make it feel more reasonable to consume, um, where we break it into a three, sort of like a three act process and then provide those. [00:35:45] Like resources in those documents and each one has a video. And so we created it into more of an opt-in guide. But that's not, not everyone has to go to that level of extreme. Right. But our, our opt-ins are insane on it. It's like, uh, our op, we get a [00:36:00] 7% opt-in rate when people land on that guide. Because it has value. [00:36:05] It doesn't always get surge traffic because there's so much on the internet about web design, but when people land on that page, they join my email list, they join my programs, like it converts very well for us, and it's. It tries to meet people at every stage of that process and let them choose where they are in that process and not feel like you have to start from step one. [00:36:26] So there's a lot of, you know, when you're creating a guide based on your approach or your framework, it can be hard to figure out how to organize it. But what you just said about having a glossary, like that's, that's a way of proving that you are using these terms and sharing where they fit on your website and allowing people to go exploring in a way that feels good. [00:36:48] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. No, I really like this idea of, of first helping your clients, but then also hopefully helping your, uh, helping the search engines, right. [00:37:00] Understanding, more learning about your unique approach. So, so yeah. That, that really feels good. Um, can you have more than one cornerstone content? Yeah. Or is that just like, you have to have one piece and that's it. [00:37:16] Meg: No, anytime that you have sort of a core idea mm-hmm. You can create cornerstone content around it. Um, some people, and again, this comes back to like, do you start from the keywords or do you start from the content, um, you know, the chicken or the egg of all of it. Some people who have been creating for a long time, they could go through, audit their content, maybe just kind of note like what are the, the themes that continue to show up? [00:37:41] Right. And come up with an idea for a cornerstone guide. Um, And then those people who already have all that content might then create an outline and say, you know, based on what's here, I can see the the gaps. I can go create more content, I can build this up. Right? And then there are gonna be the [00:38:00] folks who are like, I already know that I wanna talk about, you know, mental health and social media. [00:38:04] So here are the topics that I wanna talk about, and I'm gonna go create each of those. Podcast episodes. I'm gonna go seek out the guests that I need. I'm gonna create the guide in order. There's no right or wrong way to create these. It's just more of take the building blocks. And build a wall. Mm-hmm. [00:38:22] Sarah: Yeah. What I like most about talking with you just now is that you, you hand out these permission slips as well. It's like, no, you don't have to start with the keyword research because, um, before we started, Talking, I, I went on to Neil Patel again and saw all his videos and I'm like, I just, no, I can't go back there. [00:38:46] Like, it's [00:38:47] Meg: just, it's so prescriptive. It's so, it's so [00:38:50] Sarah: prescriptive and it's just like all this Yeah. Kind of masculine energy and Yeah. Spreadsheets and all. I'm like, it's just not for me. [00:39:00] But to hear you say, well, you can start it with the content and then start to optimize it. That, yeah, that feels really, really good. [00:39:08] So thanks for handing us, it's so [00:39:11] Meg: slip, it's so clear that I'm neuro divergent. Right. Like that there are all these rules and as, as an industry, it's very much a like linear approach to the way of doing things. And my brain is just not linear. Mm-hmm. And I don't want it to be linear. And there are a lot of rules out there that are like, Here, do this checklist, follow this plan, get these results, re improve on the results. [00:39:34] And I sit down to do the plan and I'm like, but I don't wanna, [00:39:38] Sarah: no, it's like, I'm a rebel. I don't wanna follow your, your silly [00:39:42] Meg: rules. Yeah. And like where is the space in that for inspiration? Where is the space in that? For intuition? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes the best, the best content that you create is not the stuff that's in the plan. [00:39:53] It's the stuff that you stumble into because you're following your gut. Yeah. [00:39:59] Sarah: And we [00:40:00] talked earlier on, on your show about, you know, chat C p t and, and AI and all of that. Imagine now with how easy it is to just tell chat. C p t, write me a blog post St. Six steps for blah, blah, blah. And we're gonna have be bombarded while with all this like, inhumane, boring content that just feels like, you know, the same guy wrote it. [00:40:26] Um, and so imagine now, You showing up with your content. That starts from within. That starts from the heart, and sure. Once you posted it, you're gonna pay attention to some keywords, but it doesn't start with that. How different is that gonna feel? Right. To the reader? It's completely different. It really is. [00:40:47] Meg: Yeah. And that's what can set you apart, right? Yeah. That's where, that's where all of this empathy comes into play is right. You can sound like everyone else, but the thing that's going to set you [00:41:00] apart, the, and you, the thing that's going to make your quality matter more than someone else's quantity is your humanity, right? [00:41:10] Sarah: Yeah. Mm. That's a nice line, I think to end mic drop. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, this has been, this has been really joyful and fun. Thanks so much for hanging out. Please do tell people where they can get that really, really long. PDF that they need to download. [00:41:33] Meg: You don't have to go download it. You can just go browse around. [00:41:36] You don't have to. That's the other thing about me. I'm like, you don't have to do anything. I'm very like rebellious in nature. Um, if you would like to find out more, you can head over We have an SEO starter kit right there that can help you start to get at the I your head. [00:41:50] Wrapping around this idea of keyword research. You can check out our SEO website guide, which is that long. Forum guide of, you know, pop in wherever you are in the framework and [00:42:00] figure out where it makes sense to, uh, to optimize your website. Um, whether you're creating it from scratch or it's been up for years, there are steps in there that make sense based on where you are progressively. [00:42:11] Um, we also do have a podcast and you can come listen to Sarah on the podcast cause we just recorded that. Um, that is called the Social Slowdown Podcast, so you can find that on whatever podcast device you're listening to or social [00:42:24] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:42:30] Meg: I mean, today you and I had to push things around because my, my elder son has been struggling in school, and so the school actually brought in a clinically trained psychologist to observe him in class and help us come up with ways to support him both in the classroom and at home, and that's a really powerful thing. [00:42:50] Too. Now I'm getting a little choked up, but you know that feeling of, of. Having somebody that you care about, be seen and supported. Um, and for me, that's [00:43:00] a huge amount of gratitude of being, being supported as a parent and knowing that my kid's getting what he needs. [00:43:06] Sarah: Yeah. What a wonderful service that, yeah. [00:43:08] School is offering. [00:43:09] Meg: That's great. Yeah. And it turns out, um, it's occupational therapy. It's sensory, sensory inputs. So I'm like, okay, I guess we'll be doing more army crawls in the morning before you go to school. That's the answer to all of it. [00:43:22] Sarah: Thanks so much for sharing. Thanks for being here, Meg. And uh, yeah, we'll talk again, [00:43:27] Meg: I hope. [00:43:28] All right, talk to you soon, Sarah. Thank you so much. [00:43:32] Sarah: I hope you learned a lot in this episode, specifically how you can use empathy in our seo. I find that so empowering. Please have a look at me's work, and check out me SEO starter Kit slash. Start also check out Meg's podcast called The Social Slowdown, where I was a recent guest on and we [00:44:00] talked all things humane marketing. [00:44:02] If you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at You find the show notes of this slash 1 63 on this beautiful page. You'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. [00:44:38] Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares. For yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. Now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.
44:57 5/5/23
Pricing: Money and Masculine Energy
Let me tell you about today’s guest, Alexander Inchbald. Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 changemakers to create their Masterpiece and become Rainmakers. He is the founder of the #Masterpiece Movement, a growing community of pioneers, changemakers, misfits and rebels. Together with other likeminded communities they are creating a system that will sustain humankind. Alexander is a global authority on creativity: how we master our mind and body during the act of creation so we create a Masterpiece. He has studied Masters from the worlds of art, science, religion and leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, physiology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimenting with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. The story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. He is a bestselling author a few times over, has worked on all of the United Nation’s Sustainable Development Goals and lives with his family above Lake Geneva In today's episode, Alex and I talk about: The story of money, from the industrial revolution until today What this means to us today WooWoo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle and why it prevents us from building business that make money Reclaim the artist as well as the art director How we can change our relationship to money The inner and outer game The role of creativity (and the right brain) in making money Why can can’t neglect the left brain And so much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle. And renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. [00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [00:02:29] Hello, friends. Today I have another deep and intriguing conversation for you, and it falls under the P of pricing. It's more about money, but money has to do with pricing, right? If you're irregular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane [00:03:00] slash one page, [00:03:09] One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a blueprint or a step-by-step or cookie cutter approach. It's, uh, not perspec prescriptive, but it really is, um, helping you to reflect on your seven Ps for humane marketing. [00:03:37] So today I'm speaking to my new friend, Alexander Ald, whom I, I've met in December at a lovely fondue afternoon with nine other beautiful human beings, and we somehow telepathically connected and he gifted me his book Masterpiece, which is truly a masterpiece. [00:04:00] And, uh, that's what we're gonna be talking about today. [00:04:03] And. Obviously, like I said, going to talk about money, pricing, and also this idea of the masculine and the feminine energy, but mainly the masculine because money has to do with masculine energy. Before, I'll tell you a little bit more about Alexander. I'll also invite you in the behind the scenes of my pricing journey with our community. [00:04:28] The Humane Marketing Circle. I started this community in late 2019. It has been kind of going already in a small group before, and for the first year, people could basically join for free as part of, uh, my book launch on Kickstarter, and they were free members for a full. And then obviously, you know what happened in 20 20 20, uh, and then whoever wanted to stay after 2020, [00:05:00] they, uh, paid 20 bucks per month. [00:05:03] Then I increased it to 37, uh, dollars per month and then to 47, and now it's back at 37. You know, economic circumstances and all of that. But meanwhile, more people joined. We added a second monthly call. We moved from, uh, tr a Trello board, which was very simplistic, and it worked for a while for us. But now we're kind of going pro onto a new online platform. [00:05:35] And now we have an engaged online component to the community, and we're hosting that on cajabi, which I kind of joke about. It's, it's very much like us, um, because Cajabi bought this new, um, platform just recently. And so it's a, it. Kind of the little sister of Mighty Networks. It has big dreams, and yet it's [00:06:00] not perfect yet. [00:06:00] And that kind of reminds me of ourselves as a quietly rebellious and, uh, heart-centered changemakers and marketers. You know, uh, we're not perfect. We we're, uh, doing our very best and that's what our online platform is like. And, and so yeah, people are loving it. And in January I hired a community facilitator, uh, Eddie, who's connecting men members amongst each other and really cry, creating this interconnectedness between members, which is so important in a community. [00:06:36] So together we have created something just beautiful and unique and. Totally ready for this new business paradigm that's very Aquarius oriented, you know, power to the people. Um, it's not a top down approach where I'm basically the guru and te teaching you how to do it. No, we're tapping [00:07:00] into our own personal powers and, and sharing what works for us and learning from everybody else what works for them so that we can then figure out, well, I'd like to do this in business and I, you know, this person shared this thing. [00:07:16] I wanna try that. And, and so it's, it is very much in this, uh, Aquarius energy. If, um, if any of you listening are into, um, astrology or kind of follow that even loosely. So yeah, we've really created something very beautiful and unique, I think, uh, together. And now it's time for me to bring in the masculine energy and walk my talk about creating sustainable businesses. [00:07:46] Um, I always share that with my clients and the, the marketing like we're human program. And even in this circle we talk about how just because we come from this place of giving and lots of empathy [00:08:00] and, you know, humane approach to business does not mean that we don't want to have a sustainable business. [00:08:07] We operate from this principle of maximum sustainable generosity, right? And this community has definitely been grown based on that principle, maximum sustainable generosity. And now has come the time where, um, I need to bring in that masculine energy and make it sustainable for me. Uh, beautiful things, good things take time to grow. [00:08:33] And we are at the point now where I feel like. This is just absolutely a gorgeous community. Uh, and now I do need to bring up the price because up till now it wasn't sustainable for me, and that's okay. Again, it takes time and uh, you can't charge the full price from day one. That just makes logical business sense, but now it's time. [00:08:56] So on May 5th, I'll be [00:09:00] introducing a new humane three-tier pricing that is, Conveying all the value you really get in this community and it's sustainable for the host and everyone else's work that needs to be paid fairly. I'm announcing this price increase not to use urgency to get you to sign up, but it wouldn't feel fair that I'm doubling the price overnight without giving you at least a last chance to sign up at the current rate. [00:09:29] You know, it has happened to me where I go to a website and offering, all of a sudden the price is like much higher and I'm like, well, I wish I knew about this. So that's kind of why I'm doing this. Um, now so. Again, um, if you've been playing with the idea of maybe joining us now is a good time, you'll still be kind of considered, I wouldn't say founding members because, um, again, I've been hosting this for over three years, so, [00:10:00] uh, it's not really a founding member rate anymore, but it's just kind of like this, um, you know, maybe a budding rate. [00:10:07] Like we. Add the verge of something that is going to grow. And, and, and if you get in now, uh, well, you get in at that $37 per month rate. The new rates will come into place on May 5th. Have a forward slash circle and see if, uh, this is a good fit for you. And we'd love to have you okay with that. [00:10:35] Um, and I hope Alexander is, is proud about me demonstrating my, uh, masculine energy here. So let me tell you a little bit about today's guest, Alexander ald. Um, Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 change makers to create their masterpiece and become rainmakers. He's the founder of the Masterpiece Movement. [00:10:58] A growing community of [00:11:00] pioneers, changemakers, misfits, and rebels. Together with other like-minded communities, they are creating a system that will sustain human. Alexander is a global authority on creativity, how we master our mind embodied during the act of creation so we can create a masterpiece. He has studied masters from the worlds of art, science, religion, leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, psychology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimented with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. [00:11:41] This story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. Alexander is a bestselling author a few times over and has worked on all of the United Nations, sustain sustainable development goals, and he lives with his family here in Switzerland above Lake Geneva. And [00:12:00] I've had the pleasure to, uh, be over at his house just recently with a beautiful view. [00:12:05] So in our time together, we speak about. The story of money from the Industrial Revolution until today. What this means to us today, uh, I get him to talk about woo woo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle, and why it prevents us from building a business that makes money, reclaim the artist as well as the art director. [00:12:30] How we can change our relationship to money, the inner and the outer game, the role of creativity, the right brain in making money. Why we can't neglect the left brain and so much more. Um, this is a deep conversation. It's a conversation where I use my. Um, left brain and Capricorn being to, um, you know, kind of ground and bring ourselves [00:13:00] back because, uh, Alexander can go really far into these concepts that I have to admit are, uh, sometimes even, uh, a bit far out for me. [00:13:10] So, um, it's a rainy conversation. So if you're ready for that, let's dive in. Hi Alexander. So good to see you speak to you today. [00:13:23] Alexander: Wonderful to be here. Sarah, thank you so much for having [00:13:25] Sarah: me. Yeah. Um, I was on a webinar with you last week. That was amazing. And then of course, uh, as I mentioned in the intro, we, uh, met in person, which is like so rare nowadays, right? [00:13:40] That you get to meet people in person. And we get to meet again actually, uh, tomorrow after this recording. So I'm looking forward to that. But, um, let's share with, uh, my listeners a little bit of the conversations that, uh, partly from your webinar, also from your book, [00:14:00] that you, um, so kindly shared with me and I entitled this, uh, conversation. [00:14:06] Can't remember the exact words, but something about money and masculine energy, because that's what I feel like. You bring to us, right? This kind of dance between the feminine and the masculine and what that has to do with money, uh, how art comes in as well, because you are an artist. So yeah. Let's, let's dive in. [00:14:30] Um, why don't you start with kind of like, um, an excerpt of the story that you sh shared in this webinar. Um, I was on last week, I think it was called, um, it was called The Path of Prosperity, right? That was the title. Yeah. So sh sh Start us out there. [00:14:49] Alexander: Wow. Um, you know, the Pathway of Prosperity is, is a model that emerged, uh, in Switzerland. [00:14:55] Last year I was working with a group of pioneers and one of my business partners, a guy called Peter [00:15:00] kk, and Peter looked at our relationship to money and has looked at it for the last thir 30, 40 years. Um, and he discovered some really, really interesting things when he looked at our relationship to money. [00:15:12] Um, And the modern conception of money was created and designed by some very conscious people 250 years ago, um, around the time of the Industrial Revolution. And the industrial Revolution kind of, um, represents the extreme of the masculine end of the pathway. So there's a feminine end to the pathway, and you'd have to go back 200,000 years really to the dawn of humankind, um, in the Great River Valley in Africa, or at least that's one history you could say. [00:15:43] And that was kind of all feminine energy. So what is feminine energy? Feminine energy is, is, is being in connection. And if you've ever been in a real state of flow, you feel that you're in connection with something, something greater, um, than yourself. And somehow the energy of creativity [00:16:00] flows through you. [00:16:00] So just go to a moment like that. Maybe it was a moment you. Deeply in love with somebody in front of you, or a moment that you, you know, you created a painting and it just hours flew by or, or you finished a report at that moment. Actually the mind isn't really very active. You, you're just kind of in a state of connection or in a state of communion. [00:16:20] And then the opposite end of that is, is the industrial age. Um, and the industrial age. We've gone from kind of being connected to all of it, um, to being a cog in a wheel. Um, and the pathway, we actually talk about the pathway all the way from this to this. But, um, that takes about an hour. So, so I'm not gonna do that in this conversation. [00:16:40] Let, let me start this end. Let's work our way back. So this is the pathway of separation, moving from being connected to, disconnected from being part of all of it, to being a cog, a cove machine. And so if we, if we look at the, the industrial age, what did we say? We said, well, [00:17:00] um, life expectancy was pretty short, kind of, uh, 30 to 50 years, um, in most advanced countries in the world. [00:17:07] Um, and how do we, how do we increase, increase our health? And so some very, very conscious people actually designed a system, a financial system, in order for that to happen. And it included things like interest rates. Um, but the externalities of that, according to Peter's research, are two things. Um, one is extraction of people, extraction of the resource of people. [00:17:30] In other words, led to the idea of the cog in the wheel. And the second is the extraction of raw materials. And those two externalities, at the beginning, they were okay, because if you look at the numbers, the numbers are incredible that life expectancy went up and quality of life went up. E extraordinarily. [00:17:49] Um, and num, those numbers don't lie. It's not like somebody's faked those numbers. I was looking at the work by hands roling the mind gap. You can go, go and see it, mind Um, [00:18:00] incredible. It literally shows how you increase the amount of earning and the life expectancy increases. In other words, there is a direct correlation between those two, right? [00:18:10] And yet that system also divided us. So it was a system of silos. Um, think of the traditional factory and even a factory today it divides things down into silos. And so that was the system two 50 years ago. And there's some organizations that still follow it today, the un not far from where you and I are sitting right now. [00:18:29] You know, it follows a silo-based mentality. Governments, they follow a, a silo-based mentality. Education, you know, in, in class we get taught maths very separate from science, and that's very separate from, you know, art and, and languages. And yet today when we look at the challenges we face there, They're horizontal challenges, not vertical challenges. [00:18:51] Right. And so that, that kind of model started to evolve. Um, and about a hundred years ago, it evolved from the silo based system, uh, which we call the [00:19:00] control system into the, the, the compete system when compete system, not just vertical lines. You add in the horizontal lines. So you see this in big business now, everything divided from, you know, the, the factory line into departments and teams. [00:19:18] Mm-hmm. And you, you kind of had groupings in organizations. And then what we started to see about 20, 30 years ago is, is a kind of emergence, um, of something which can be traced back way before this, but the, the role of the individual in the organization, um, and the philosophy shifted and the philosophy shifted from, from over here in this model, the control and the compete model. [00:19:42] It was all about what was good for the organization, was good for the individual. It's a very paternalistic top down. And this one started to become a little bit more feminine. It said, well, actually what's good for the individual is good for the organization. We started to see that in Silicon Valley. So, you know, the growth of Silicon Valley, um, [00:20:00] w was predicated on the idea of giving people time to do what they were passionate about. [00:20:05] Think, think of Google. They said one day a week, 20% of your time, you can do whatever you're passionate about. And that led to Gmail and Google Maps and Google Calendar, and 50% of the innovation and AdWords, 50% of the innovation from Google came from that 20% time. And yet, what we are getting to see now, 20, 30 years into, you know, the, the massive rise of the internet is the limits of that system. [00:20:33] And, and a new system has been emerging for, uh, 20, 30 years. Um, Behind the scenes. And what we're now seeing is these systems, which are all a variant, a different flavored, you know, vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, let's say. And we're now seeing that actually ice cream isn't the answer. Um, [00:21:00] [00:21:00] Sarah: well I'm gonna interrupt you there then. [00:21:02] So if we continue this ice cream analogy, what is the answer though? Um, and also what does dad have to do with our money story? [00:21:15] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, well, I, I'm at risk of course, continuing the analogy and saying, well, we all get fat and get addicted to [00:21:24] Sarah: That's true. And if you, if, if you continue there, it's like, well, money makes you fat. [00:21:30] You know, it's like fat in terms of like too much. [00:21:34] Alexander: Well look exactly, and, and you, you are spot on because. What, what is really happening? Where is the money in the world? Mm-hmm. Well, it's in these three systems. So it's, it's in government bonds, it's in government treasury, it's in big business and it's in Silicon Valley. [00:21:53] And more money has been printed in the last 10 years than has ever been in existence [00:22:00] in the entire history of humankind. And 40% of that wealth, 40% of the world's wealth is owned by 10 men. Um, and I used to be able to get even more of my high horse in this and say 10 white men, but actually there are now two Indian gentlemen who are in the top 10 men. [00:22:19] Um, and despite that, all the other organizations in the top 10 were founded in Silicon Valley. So you've got this, you've got this lake, if you like, of wealth, and it sits. In these three systems, think of a dam, right? And you know, behind the dam you have, you have a lake and it, and it's, and it's actually held here. [00:22:41] Mm-hmm. And it's, it's being hoarded, right? Um, and, and the money is not flowing right. It's not flowing out of the dam. It's, it's jammed behind the dam. And that isn't very natural. Dams are [00:23:00] not natural things. You know, there are no natural dams in nature. There's no hoarding in nature. There's nothing in nature that actually hoards anything. [00:23:07] If you look in, okay, so bears hibernate, squirrels hibernate, but what they do is they store the food that they need to get through the winter. That's not hoarding, right? Storing is, okay, I'm gonna just keep enough that I need with me. Uh, and, and as nomads, we did the same. We, we just carried what we needed at that moment. [00:23:29] If you've ever, ever been backpacking, You know, the first day you go backpack and you're like, oh, damn, I was wondering whether I could swear that, uh, I'll, I've bought in like stuff, I don't need all this stuff. So then you kind of start throwing away stuff, right? And then you, you thin down your rug sucking like, this is what I need, this is all I need. [00:23:51] Sarah: So yeah. You're, you're saying basically the, the money is all held in behind that dam. The question I guess I have is [00:24:00] like, well, what do we, the people, um, what can we do as the people? Um, because you started to talk about this journey, right? And you showed, basically showed us history. So the question is, um, is the, is this history a linear path and things just kept, keep going worse and worse, or? [00:24:27] And I think, uh, I remember from the webinar, of course, it's not a linear path. Uh, it, it it's this shape of, um, the, the the figure eight, um, and the infinity sign. So tell us about the return of Yeah. Uh, you know, how, how it's gonna change, basically. [00:24:48] Alexander: Yeah. Well, it, it looks like it's linear. It, it really does. [00:24:51] It does. It looks like we're heading, heading towards complete collapse. And [00:24:54] Sarah: right now, uh, you know, most people are gonna tell you, well, Alexander, I don't know, [00:25:00] but right now it doesn't look like there's any return. [00:25:03] Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't look good. I mean, you know, we are recording this, aren't we? Um, just after, you know, the second, uh, valley Bank has just collapsed, um, we're recording at the same time as, um, UBS is just made an offer to buy credit Suis. [00:25:19] Right. Um, we're recording at a time that. Uh, the Economist is saying that there's a hundred billion dollars in the US banking system missing. Wow. But that's, that's, um, an unwanted gap. And you know, I remember back in 2007, 2008, you know, the beginning of the financial crisis, um, and Lima's Brothers collapsing. [00:25:40] And, and I'm sure you do as well. And it kind of feels like we're, we're at a similar time. And yet I am less concerned about it than ever. And some people, you know, watching like, what you crazy? I'm like, no, actually thi this is, this is absolutely what is being called, uh, forward. [00:26:00] And so there is a world beyond this. [00:26:03] Um, and in fact it's incredibly exciting and amazing world. And everyone says, oh, the system's gonna collapse in Ajara Diamond's book. If you've ever read that about civilization collapse, uh, the whole thing is gonna fall down. Well, maybe, um, The dam actually, there are people standing on both sides of the dam. [00:26:25] So let's take it from the, the global to the specific. Let's take it from, from, you know, what's happening at a societal level and let's, let's focus it on an individual level because this one [00:26:37] Sarah: you are talking about. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm. Because I was just gonna say that cuz it's a bit out there, right? [00:26:43] And it's like, okay, it would be great if we can talk about, well, what does that mean to us? So yeah, take us there. [00:26:50] Alexander: Mm-hmm. So some of us are standing on this side of the dam and we've got big fat ca bank accounts and we're like, I'm scared of spending my [00:27:00] money because the collapse, you know, the collapse is coming. [00:27:04] If I read the, if I read the the papers, watch the news, read the Economist or whoever, the system's about to collapse. So I need to look after my money. In other words. We are hoarding more because we're, we're afraid. And then there are people on the other side of the dam who are, who are kind of looking at the dam going, oh, there's no money coming to me. [00:27:29] And so some of us, you know, some of us are on this side of the dam and we're like, the river's dried up. There's, there's a drought, there's no money flowing to me. Um, how do I, how do I avoid this? Well, maybe I need to climb back up and, and get this side and go back into this world. Maybe I need to go back into the world of business and get a job and just stop trying to create this new system, whatever this new system is. [00:27:58] Um, [00:28:00] and then those of us who are in it are like, am I gonna lose my job? So we've got these kind of two different mentalities going on and it, Peter puts it like this. There are someone, us who are unconsciously. Pushing money away, and some of us who are running after money unconsciously, so let me kind of unbundle that. [00:28:18] Mm-hmm. You can actually see this in your own life. Like either money's flowing, uh, there's money in your bank account or there's not money in your bank, in your bank account. You, you can literally look at it and you could diagnose what's going on by the health of your bank account. Now the secret here is about flow and you mentioned that this is an infinite loop. [00:28:40] The figure of eight turn on its side, it's actually an infinite loop. And the secret is very simple. The dam is actually a belief system held in mind. The dam is actually in our mind and it's an unconscious thing. You're like, no, no, no. It really exists. Like [00:29:00] 40% of the world's wealth help help buy 10 people. [00:29:02] They keep, you can't deny that you know that the money is all in here and it's not here. Well, actually that's not true because there are people over here I know. And we could talk about at length. And they have all the money they need flowing through them and flowing through their bank accounts, and they genuinely are creating a new world. [00:29:21] So what is the difference between those people and, and you and I now, why is the money flowing through their bank accounts and not through all of our bank accounts? And why is the money stuck here? And actually what we find is that most of us have part of ourselves here and part of ourselves here. So in fact, we're doing a little bit of both all the time. [00:29:45] We're, we're kind of hoarding onto the money that does come in, um, because we're afraid of the drought and we're looking at the money saying, when is the money gonna flow to us? And so the, a lot of the work we do is about helping people to break down [00:30:00] this, literally this mental barrier, this mental dam, um, so that the money flows again. [00:30:09] And so that ultimately prosperity flows, um, and the natural design of, of nature is everything in flow. Mm-hmm. It, it's not building downs, it's not building restrictions. [00:30:24] Sarah: Yes. I, I hear you Alexander, but my rational mind is still has a lot of questions because you just went through explaining, you know, the kind of system we are in right now. [00:30:39] Um, and you know that 10 men basically own 40% of the wealth and they are not the ones that I would say represent the feminine energy or even like dual energy. They're the patriarchical, um, kind of not the nicest people on [00:31:00] earth, I would say. And I don't care that they own, uh, that much. So the question is if you're saying, okay, it's just in our mind, well, it's not, it's a reality. [00:31:11] And so the, the thing is, what I want you to, um, talk about is, you know, kind of this concept of owning the masculine energy Yes. As well. And probably more like where we're headed, because clearly right now it's not the case, you know? Yes. Like, we're not at this point yet where we're money flows to everyone. [00:31:37] It's just Yes. You just showed it yourself. So Yes. Take us to, to owning these both energies and, and what, what that could look like. [00:31:47] Alexander: Look, that's such a good question. Um, and brilliantly put, and just to be clear, Um, I'm not saying that that the 10 white men or the eight white men and two Indian [00:32:00] men are in our mind. [00:32:01] I'm saying the dam is in our mind, right? Yes. Right. So the dam is what is in our mind. Mm-hmm. Which is blocking the flow. And you mentioned going into the fem energy. So let's look at it from this perspective. Yeah. Because it's easier to look from down here, looking up at the down. But if we go all the way into the feminine energy over here, we are not separate from the whole. [00:32:29] We are part of mother nature. We are, we are part of it. We are an integral part of it. We're not separate from it. The separation only happens in mind. So the only part of ourselves that can sense the separation is our mind, but our essence, whatever we call it, is not separate from the whole. It's an integral part of the whole. [00:32:52] Right. So if we look at it from this perspective, and then we look at these eight white men and two Indian [00:33:00] gentlemen, and we talk about the, the patriarchy as you just did. And then we, we have all this kind of stuff coming up inside ourselves and we're like, I really don't like those people. That she's the person in that system that you like the least think of that person, that leader, that that individual in that system. [00:33:22] Whether he's an entrepreneur, I'm gonna say he, because undoubtedly it's a man in, in a, in a right. So probably a, uh, a business leader, maybe a politician, but just bring to mind that person. It doesn't have to be, uh, in North America. It could be, it could be somewhere in Europe, it could be, it could be somewhere in Russia. [00:33:43] It could be somewhere in. Um, in the East, right? So just bring to mind that person, and then think of the, the, the thing that you like least about that person. What trait do you like least about that person? And is it, is it, it's, is it corruption? Is it, is it [00:34:00] bullying? Is it misogyny? Is it lying? Is it cheating? [00:34:03] Is it manipulating? Is it bullying? What is, what is it all? What is that trait All above? Yeah. Okay. All of the above. Right? And you can write a long, long list, right? Here's the scary thing. When you look at it from the feminine energy that is part of us. If we are part of the whole, they are also part of the whole, and they are part of us. [00:34:28] And this is a horrible, horrible thing, a horrible realization because mm-hmm. You're suddenly like, oh shit. What? Really? No, no, no, no. Because the mine will then go, no, no, no. That's ridiculous. I've done my work. I've done my own work. I, I, that's, that's how I got here. Don't be so ridiculous. I, I worked at my purpose five years ago, 10 years ago. [00:34:46] I've been doing spiritual development work. I've been doing personal development work. I've been doing all this work for the last 15, 20 years. My whole life has been dedicated to this work. Don't be so ridiculous as part of me stuck over here. Well, if we are on the planet right now, the bad news [00:35:00] is there is, there is an aspect of us that is holding this system in place, that's holding this dam here. [00:35:08] Mm-hmm. This dam in our mind. So what can we do about it? And this is where you're absolutely spot on, that actually we need to re-embrace this masculine energy over here. And, and, you know, Carl Young talked about this idea of the shadow. You know, what's held in the shadow. What's held in the collective consciousness of the planet right now is primarily masculinity. [00:35:35] Cuz this isn't been going on for 250 years. It's been going on for minimum 5,000 years, probably 10,000 years probably. You can trace it all the way back to the moment that, um, well, 5,000 years plus civilization in Suma, where we started to create hierarchies in cigarettes and money and all these things, or 10,000 years. [00:35:54] The moment that we settled down and we said, actually, we can cultivate crops and we can, we can [00:36:00] domestic animals, in other words, with a little bit above nature. Or you could trace it back 40,000 years and say, actually it was the moment that the prefrontal cortex, you know, mutated and gave us consciousness and the moment that the larynx gave us the ability to talk. [00:36:14] So each of these moments are kind of moments of separation along this journey. And now here we are at this, at this moment in history right now, the most amazing moment possibly ever in human history to be alive right now. And, and most of us still have this, they'll have this wall. The wall will dissolve. [00:36:36] It will, it's inevitable for some of us, and those of us who do will just go on this infinite cycle within this life. And for those of us who don't, will go on this cycle, not on this slide. Yeah, [00:36:54] Sarah: I like that. Um, I think, so you, you [00:37:00] kind of talked about the masculine energy and embracing that, um, I think in your book, but also in the webinar. [00:37:07] He also talk about the ego, right? And it's, um, it's part of that, those shadows, um, that, that we need to look at. And in some of the self-help, more self-development, uh, personal development, uh, um, things you hear while you just need to like go of the ego and you know, that's how you're coming to this feminine energy. [00:37:32] You instead say, well, don't let go of it. Uh, look at it and embrace it and, and, and, and yeah, commune with it in a way, right? And I think that's exactly what's happening now as well. Um, in, in on the bigger, um, scheme is all of that ego stuff is coming up and. And we're, yeah, we're having to look at it as a [00:38:00] society and, you know, the big, um, kind of, um, people that we talked about with all the wealth. [00:38:06] Well, that's really coming up for them, uh, specifically right now. And, and so what you're saying is not completely let go of it, but take I guess the good things from the ego with you so that you can then apply those. Let, let's kind of bring it to a business owner level because li my listeners are, are entrepreneurs, right? [00:38:30] And I do feel like a lot of, uh, you know, I'm talking to heart-centered entrepreneurs, so already that kind of says, well, there are a lot in the feminine energy, uh, which is great, right? Which is exactly what we need, uh, more of, so we're on this pathway back to the feminine energy. And what you are saying, and I'm saying it as well in different words because I talk about the doing and the being, um, the yin and the [00:39:00] yang, right? [00:39:00] We need both energies to be an entrepreneur and to, you know, stay ground and, and, and claim our worth. And, and, and yeah, do sell Right to sell. We need, uh, some of that, um, masculine energy as well. So yeah, tell us a bit more about the ego and, and what, what good parts are in the ego, right. That we can bring back to, to business. [00:39:26] Oh, [00:39:26] Alexander: beautiful. Great question. Um, well let, let's, let's take this model actually, and, and flip it up, right? So this, this figure of a, and let's flip it this way and, ok. So now [00:39:37] Sarah: let's, now standing straight, [00:39:38] Alexander: it's now standing straight, right? Yeah. And the base is the feminine and, and the, the top is, is the masculine. [00:39:45] Mm-hmm. And now let's imagine that's a tree. Right? Mm-hmm. And this is your tree and your, your business. Mm-hmm. And what you wanna do is you want to attract more trees into your forest, more trees into your community is [00:40:00] right. And the bigger, the bigger your forest grows, the more sustainable it becomes. So trees that grow in forest live far longer than trees that, um, that are isolated on their own, on hilltops. [00:40:13] So let's, let's assume that what you're trying to do is, is build a forest. A sustainable forest doesn't have to be the biggest forest in the world, but it's a sustainable forest. It's a heart-centered forest center. At the heart of this forest is the mother tree, your tree. Now if you think about that forest, and let's say, you know, it's, it's currently a cops or maybe it's a wood, but actually the potential is to grow to a forest. [00:40:36] Or maybe you are just starting out and you've literally just sewed the seed and it's, it's a seedling or a sapling. But you know, you know the potential of it is not just to grow into a tree. It's actually to grow into a forest. And of course what you go is do is you go through growing pain. So let's see if yours are sapling, you may be blown away, away, you know, around by the wind. [00:40:57] And what we often focus on is we try [00:41:00] and, you know, we try and grow the tree, right? You imagine this like you're a little seedling and you're, you're like, grow faster and you're like, let, you're trying to pull this more, more [00:41:08] Sarah: clients, more, [00:41:09] Alexander: yeah. More clients. More, more, more, more grow this way. Mm-hmm. And, and of course that doesn't work. [00:41:13] You'll literally just pull the seedling outta the ground or you'll pull the sapling outta the ground. Mm-hmm. So what stops you from doing this is, is the roots. And in fact, the height of the tree is dependent on the depth of the roots. Right? And don't worry, I'm gonna get to, to this thing about the ego, right? [00:41:28] Um, so let's assume that the roots is the feminine, the roots is in, is in connection with all of it. What, what we call the purpose. And that the, the tree is your mission. This is what you're growing towards and you want all the other trees to grow towards this, towards this mission. And that creates a microclimate underneath which sustains life because it's not too hot, it's not too cold. [00:41:52] It helps the, um, the, to conserve the water that all the trees need, the nutrients that all the trees need, the minerals [00:42:00] that all the trees need. And then they share this underneath. So the height of the tree is dependent on the depths of the roots. The sustainability of the forest is dependent on the consistency of the canopy, but what stops the roots from growing deeper are rocks. [00:42:18] Now, most people would tell you to remove rocks. When you see a block, you remove the block. When you see the dam, you take the dam out. [00:42:29] But what if the rocks had helped you to get here? See, if you were to remove all the rocks under a forest, the trees would become unstable. Mm-hmm. And then they'd fall over. But actually if, if the roots wrap around the rocks, then the tree becomes more stable. Yeah. And the whole forest becomes more stable. [00:42:53] Sarah: It reminds me of what we just said before, recording, no pain, no gain. Right? The rocks are the pain [00:43:00] here. The rocks are the dark nights of the soul. Um, so [00:43:04] Alexander: yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And in our research we've identified all different types of, of pain. Pain around money, which we've just been talking about. We're either mentally hoarding it or we are mentally, um, you know, we're in a scarcity mindset. [00:43:23] Um, so we're pushing it away mentally or we're running after it power, relationship to power. So either we're standing at the top