Show cover of Unconventional Wisdom

Unconventional Wisdom

Welcome to the Unconventional Wisdom podcast. The show that helps you achieve financial security & freedom. Insights based on in-depth experience from Canada's #1 financial planner blogger. Find out what really works. Your host, fee-for-service financial planner & tax accountant, Ed Rempel.


TFSA or RRSP? – The Right Answer for You (2024)
Deciding between a Tax-Free Savings Account (TFSA) and a Registered Retirement Savings Plan (RRSP) can be one of the most challenging financial decisions you'll face.  Each has its benefits, and the right choice depends on your unique financial situation.  In this post, I'll guide you through understanding the factors that determine whether a TFSA or RRSP is better for you and how a financial plan can provide you with the precise answer. In my latest video I talk about:  The secret to minimizing your lifetime tax. Understanding how tax brackets differ before and after retirement. Specific examples when a TFSA is better and when an RRSP is better. When non-registered investments might be better than an RRSP. Common errors in tax planning, like focusing on current-year tax savings instead of lifetime tax savings. The impact of government income program clawbacks on your tax bracket in retirement. The importance of knowing your future taxable income to make informed decisions. Strategies for planning your retirement income to stay in lower tax brackets. The benefits of combining TFSAs, RRSPs, and non-registered investments for tax-efficient retirement planning. The role of a financial plan in optimizing your RRSP and TFSA contributions and withdrawals.  
18:06 7/11/24
How To Have a Long Lifespan, Healthspan & Wealthspan With 3.0 Level Thinking
How long should you expect to be retired? You want your money to last the rest of your life. How long will you live? What quality of life will you have? What will your lifestyle cost you when you are older? What if you could: Live longer (long lifespan). Be healthy longer (long healthspan). Have financial freedom longer (long wealthspan). In my latest podcast episode I talk about: Why it's smart to plan for a longer life. New thinking in medicine to help you live long & be healthy.. New thinking in personal finance to keep you financially free for life. What is wrong with mainstream medicine & personal finance. Create your own "Centenarian Decathlon". Why "First, do harm" is wrong for doctors. What did Hippocrates actually say? How to create plans for a long lifespan, healthspan, and wealthspan.
30:25 6/27/24
How To Create a Financial Plan That Is Your Life Plan - Interview with Kornel Szrejber
I recently worked with Kornel Szrejber, host of Canada’s #1 financial podcast “Build Wealth Canada”, on his family’s financial plan, so he could feel confident about his retirement. Kornel retired in his 30s, but he was starting to feel anxious because he wanted to make sure he wasn’t overspending. This podcast interview is a Q&A between the two of us where we talk about Kornel’s situation, as well as other situations people may go through when they are saving for retirement. We talk about what makes a good financial plan, tax planning, and understanding how to foresee how much you can spend on things you love in your life like vacations and entertainment. After watching this interview you’ll realize that when you know the lifestyle you want to live, you can live the life you want in your retirement. Here are some points we touched upon: Why it’s so critical to track and itemize your household expenses (so you aren’t stressed about your retirement). How to know how sustainable your lifestyle is when living off your portfolio. In which order should Kornel withdraw from his accounts for a tax-efficient retirement? Why a personalized financial plan is key to having a successful retirement. What is lifestyle creep? Why you should view expenses as discretionary and non-discretionary. Why investing is only 20% of the financial plan. The 2 overall tax strategy choices to minimize tax in your retirement. How should you plan if you earn income for a few years in your retirement. Do you retire with more peace of mind with Active or Passive investment strategies? Tax planning for a higher Canada Child Benefit. How the CCB can put you in a high tax bracket with income as low as $17,500/year. How many hours does it take to do a financial plan? Planning for long-term financial success. Enjoy! Ed  
53:09 6/20/24
How to Successfully Implement the Smith Manoeuvre (Ed Rempel interviewed by Sean Cooper from "Burn Your Mortgage")
You know the basics about the Smith Manoeuvre.  It’s one of the most effective wealth building strategies if done by the right people in the right way over the long term. My latest podcast episode can be found on Sean Cooper’s “Burn YourMortgage” podcast on YouTube and his website, and you can listen here too. You’ll learn: Why should you consider the Smith Manoeuvre? How to know if the Smith Manoeuvre is right for you. Managing the risks. Avoiding the common errors. Tax tracking & Capitalizing. Dealing with CRA. How the Smith Manoeuvre can fit into your retirement plan. What happens if you move? What happens once your mortgage is paid off? What happens after you retire? Options – The 7 Smith Manoeuvre strategies. Effective investing with the Smith Manoeuvre Implementing the Smith Manoeuvre.
26:37 6/4/24
How to Avoid or Minimize Extra Tax from New Higher Capital Gains Tax
You may have heard that we just had a new budget here in Canada, and increased the taxes on capital gains.  Canadians with a rental property, cottage or investments and their tax advisors are scrambling to figure out what to do before the deadline of June 25, 2024. Here are the questions we’ll cover in this latest podcast episode: What is the new higher capital gains tax? Who is affected? Why is it mainly a real estate tax? How to avoid or minimize the higher capital gains tax. Is investing inside your corporation still worthwhile? Will the higher exemption for small business help? Are rental properties or cottages still profitable? Why are only 50% or 67% of capital gains taxed, instead of all gains? 3 nasty aspects of the new tax. Why do they say only 0.13% of Canadians are affected? Will this hurt our economy?  
37:51 5/10/24
How to Donate Effectively
You may be thinking – what difference can I make in the world? As a financial planner I talk a lot about money, however, it’s not really about the money itself, but what it does for your life – how to live well, retire comfortably, and give back. In my latest podcast episode, I give you some ideas to help you choose causes that matter to you, as well as talking about financial & tax planning for donating effectively. Listen to find out: How do most people donate? What is a Donation Plan & how does it benefit you? How to donate tax-efficiently. Donation tax credit by Province. Advanced donation tax strategies. What is a “Donor-Advised Fund”?  How do you decide where to donate? How do billionaires donate? What are the most effective charities or causes? How do we increase the prosperity of all humans?   
35:04 5/7/24
How to EASILY Outperform Financial Advisors
It’s easy to outperform financial advisors. Why? Conventional wisdom is they underperform because of fees, but there is a bigger reason. They don’t even try to outperform. They try for: “Reasonable return with less risk”. Financial advisors are mainly salespeople, not financial planners.  They are more likely to lose a client because of a 30% 1-year market decline than 10 years of lagging the index. So, they focus on market fluctuations, not your life goals. This makes them do the “4 performance drags” that typically reduce their returns by at least 3%/year, which is more than their fees. In my latest podcast episode (under 4 minutes!), you’ll learn the four performance drags and how to get the maximum reliable long-term return.  You’ll also discover exactly how to EASILY outperform financial advisors.  
04:26 5/2/24
Financially Smart Divorce
Divorce is never financially smart! As a financial planner, I don’t recommend divorce. It’s bad for your finances! However, you can go through it in the most financially smart way – to leave both of you in the best possible position. We have seen quite a few people go through divorce. We’ve seen some total disasters, fighting for years through lawyers with monstrous legal costs. A wife hiring one lawyer after another for years to keep going after her ex. A dentist declaring bankruptcy to avoid paying alimony. We have helped clients go through it amicably while talking & agreeing on what to do. We can help identify the financially best way to divide assets. We can show how to minimize or avoid tax when dividing assets. Paying tax means you both get less. I am a financial planner – not a lawyer. My insights here are based on experience about how to be as financially smart as possible. In my latest podcast episode you’ll learn: Why an amicable divorce is better. What to be aware of with lawyers. Working effectively with your lawyer. How to divide your assets the most effective way. Should you keep the house? What happens to the Smith Manoeuvre in a divorce? Should you split a pension? What options do you have with spousal & child support? What studies say about life after divorce.
33:46 4/30/24
Tenant for Life by Choice: 5 Steps to “Tenant Freedom”
Many people today feel they have no choice but to be a tenant, however, what if you actually choose this?  You can choose to be a tenant forever and it can be a great life! I’m going to introduce you to the concept of “Tenant Freedom,” to show you how great of a life it can be. Watch my latest podcast episode to find out: Advantages & disadvantages of owning vs. renting your home What you need to buy a home. How to be much wealthier as a tenant. 5 steps to a great life with Tenant Freedom. What is the “Tenant’s RRSP”? Do tenants have a Smith Manoeuvre option? The growth mindset for Tenant Freedom.  
27:11 4/25/24
Gold Goes DOWN on Inflation
Gold goes down on inflation.  Why doesn’t the industry know this? This is one of the most common and wrong conventional wisdoms. The conventional wisdom is that Gold protects you from inflation, so if we have high inflation Gold should be up. It should maintain its value. The problem is – this isn’t true and hasn’t been true for decades. So why does the investment industry keep promoting this idea? In my latest podcast episode I give you details on why you may have been told to invest in Gold, and what I suggest instead. Listen to learn: How knowing about Gold can help with your investment portfolio. The correlation between Gold vs. Inflation. What do interest rates have to do with Gold?  Why doesn’t the investment industry know this?  How to easily outperform the investment industry. Why you need an interactive financial plan. What Warren Buffett says about Gold. Why having Gold is similar to money in a Savings Account.  
13:51 4/23/24
What is a Hedge Fund? – Inside the Semi-Secret Hedge Fund World
20 years ago I took the most fascinating investment course, and by far the most in-depth. The course made me a “Certified Hedge Fund Specialist” (CHFS). I loved it so much I received the top mark in Canada. From the course and meeting with hedge fund people, I’ve learned the ins and outs of the Hedge Fund World, which to many, seems like a secret club. In my latest podcast episode, you’ll get a sense of what this world is like, insight into the categories of hedge funds and major hedge fund stories in movies. Should you invest in a hedge fund? Listen to the podcast to find out: What is a hedge fund? 12 categories of hedge fund strategies. Pros & cons of hedge funds vs. mutual funds & ETFs. What is an option? Movies about hedge fund managers. Why do our clients have a hedge fund? Should you invest in a hedge fund? Are hedge funds more risky or less risky than mutual funds & ETFs? Stories behind major hedge fund blow-ups.  
80:52 4/16/24
6 Key Lessons Learned as a Fee-For-Service Financial Planner - Talk with Ellen Roseman's Investment Club
I was honoured to be invited by Ellen Roseman to speak with her Investment Club about the 6 key lessons I have learned as a fee-for-service financial planner.  They have had investment guest speakers, but never someone just talking about financial planning. Ellen Roseman is a journalist who sticks up for ordinary Canadians. Her personal finance & consumer columns appeared in the Toronto Star for 20 years, she was the Star’s business editor, a columnist for the Globe and Mail, associate managing editor of the Globe’s Report on Business, author of 4 books, has a podcast, and she’s been teaching courses on investing and personal finance at the University of Toronto. My views are common sense based on experience writing over 1,000 financial plans and making them work for the lives of our clients. However, they are unconventional compared to the investment industry’s normal practices. In this podcast episode you'll learn: Why dividend investing is a brain fart. Why almost nobody can retire comfortably with a balanced or conservative portfolio. Why risk tolerance is a learned skill. How marginal tax brackets, including clawbacks of government programs, can change your financial plan completely. Why taking advantage of leveraged investing, such as the Smith Manoeuvre, can be the best growth strategy for the right people done the right way over the long term. The importance of having a financial plan, and why it’s the road map to the life you want.  
74:43 4/11/24
Your Corporation - What You Need to Know (If You Don’t Understand Your Accountant)
Do you own a business? If yes, then you’ll love my latest podcast episode. I cover the few things that you really need to know about corporations. You’ll learn: When should you incorporate. If you should get a holding company. Whether you should pay yourself a salary or dividend. Common mistakes by business owners. If you should invest in a corporation, RRSP or TFSA.
24:54 4/9/24
Should I Start My CPP Early?
The most common question I get asked about the Canada Pension Plan (CPP) is: “Is it smart to take my CPP early?” And what I say is - it depends, as the answer is contingent on five main factors. How long do you expect to live? How do you invest? What will inflation be?  Are you still working? When do you need the money? In my latest podcast episode I get into more details on how to think about these questions and I give you examples from client case studies. The answer is complex and CPP is only one piece of your retirement income. The best advice is to look at this as part of a professional retirement plan.  
03:44 4/2/24
The 6 Steps to Become Financially Independent
What will it take for you to become financially free?  To have enough money that you never have to work again? This latest podcast episode is my insight into the few key ideas you really need to know.  It’s an overview to give you the big picture of what really works. Some of these ideas are not conventional wisdom. They are the ideas that give you results over time. I learned these 6 steps from working with more than 1,000 families to create detailed, personal plans for them to become financially independent.  I am also a fee-for-service financial planner, tax accountant and expert in a few of the most effective strategies that might help you get there. This podcast is the best 50 minutes of financial education. Some key things you’ll learn: What is financial independence? Why you need to understand your inner motivation. Why it’s important to get a professional, written Financial Plan. What exactly is “effective investing”. What are effective investing strategies? The best way to work with a planning-focused advisor.
49:01 3/26/24
How to EASILY Outperform Robo-Advisors
It’s easy to outperform robo-advisors. Why? Because they don’t even try to outperform, they try for reasonable returns with less risk. You would think robo-advisors would just invest in a few broad indexes, but often they don’t. And they require you to invest in bonds no matter how high your risk tolerance. Robo-advisors are big investment companies, not financial planners. They’re more likely to lose a client because of a 30% one year decline, than 10 years of lagging the index, so they focus on market fluctuations and not your life goals.   This post is about performance. How to get the maximum reliable long-term return. It is not about risk-adjusted returns. It’s about getting a high enough return to achieve your life goals in your Financial Plan. In my latest podcast episode (under 4 minutes!), you’ll learn exactly how to EASILY outperform robo-advisors.
04:50 3/21/24
5-Year Fixed Mortgage Trap
The average Canadian wastes $22,000 after tax during their life for every $100,000 of their mortgage and takes 38 months longer to pay it off, according to a study by Moshe Milevsky. This is because of taking 5-year fixed mortgages instead of variable. They are marketed as being safe and a good protection against a sharp rise in interest rates.  The reality, though, is that they are nearly always a huge waste of money, because the interest rate is nearly always higher and you lose your negotiating power for five long years. From 1975-2019, 1-year fixed mortgages saved money 100% of the time. 5-year fixed will probably save money for 5 years starting 2020-22, but it may be decades until next time. That is why we call it the “5-Year Fixed Mortgage Trap”. Listen to my latest podcast episode to find out: Why people take 5-year mortgages. What you should do instead. Why being aware of your negotiating power is key.  
04:23 3/19/24
Smith Manoeuvre or Smith Maneuver?
Smith Manoeuvre or Smith Maneuver? Why the two spellings and which is correct? This strategy (which I’m most known for), helps Canadian homeowners make their mortgages tax deductible in a simple way. What’s the proper spelling? Who pioneered this legal strategy? Does it work in Quebec? Can you use it if you live in the United States? All these questions you’ll get answered in my latest podcast episode. Listen to find out: Why the Smith Manoeuvre is often misspelled. How the Smith Manoeuvre works in Quebec. The person who pioneered the Smith Manoeuvre. Learn about the history of the Smith Manoeuvre. Why I recommend this strategy to so many of my clients.  
04:04 3/12/24
Asset Allocation Loss Ratio (AALR) – What Is It & How Does It Help You?
Asset Allocation Loss Ratio (AALR) – What Is It & How Does It Help You? When you go to any investment firm in Canada, they require you to sign a risk tolerance questionnaire to prevent you from investing too aggressively. However there are two important questions: What prevents you from investing too conservatively? Can you achieve your life goals with more conservative investments? These are critical questions, since almost nobody can retire comfortably with a typical balanced portfolio with 40-50% in bonds. This is where the AALR comes in. With any financial decision, it’s important to understand how it affects your life – both the risk & the return. The Asset Allocation Loss Ratio (AALR) estimates the effect of a more conservative portfolio or suboptimal asset allocation on your long-term investment returns. In my latest podcast episode I give you examples of case studies, as well as the formula for asset allocation loss ratio, so you can determine exactly how you should invest for your future.  
09:10 3/7/24
Biggest mistakes that could tarnish, or even tank, your credit rating: Interview with Bryn Griffiths from 630 CHED radio
I recently did an interview with Bryn Griffiths from 630 CHED radio in Edmonton about how different things can affect people's credit ratings and how to avoid making common mistakes. It’s a quick, but important podcast episode, because even a $10 missed credit card bill can cost you hundreds of dollars in interest. Plus how to start or build your credit rating. Enjoy! Ed  
10:53 3/5/24
The Rempel Maximum - 5 Steps to Becoming a Multi-Millionaire
Remember the show “Who wants to be a millionaire?”  Are you the kind of person that wants to build some serious wealth?  Live an exceptional life? Be financially free? I don’t mean just a comfortable amount. I mean a lot – like being a multi-millionaire. The truth is, average people can become very wealthy just by managing their money for maximum growth. In my latest podcast episode, I introduce you to The “Rempel Maximum” and the 5 steps to becoming a multi-millionaire. This is a process to build as much wealth as you can in a solid, reliable way.  The Rempel Maximum is the quest to find the methods most likely to build wealth reliably.  It is best to think of it as a concept – a set of tools, not a recipe.  Do none of it, a bit, or the amount you are comfortable with and that will give you the life you want. Enjoy! Ed  
03:21 2/27/24
How to EASILY Outperform Index Investors
It is easy to outperform index investors. Why? Because they don’t really try to get index returns, they try for reasonable returns with less risk. This makes them use “performance drags” that typically reduce their returns by at least 1-3%/year. In my latest podcast episode (which is under 3 minutes!), you’ll learn exactly how to EASILY outperform index investors. Enjoy! Ed  
05:29 2/22/24
Gambling, Speculating, Saving & Investing - What's the Difference?
How should you invest your money? If you don’t invest wisely, it will be hard to fund your future. There are always new areas you can put your money into, but are they worthwhile long-term? In my latest podcast episode, I look at all the possible areas to invest your money and fit them into 4 categories: gambling, speculating, saving, and investing. Knowing the expected return & risk for each will help you decide what’s the most reliable for you to be confident in your future. I specifically talk about: The difference between gambling, speculating, saving & investing. What are meme stocks, NFTs, cryptocurrencies? Meme stocks, NFTs, cryptocurrencies, lotteries, futures, options, rental properties, bonds, GICs, dividend stocks, equities. Where do they all fit? How high do long-term returns need to be to be considered an investment? Odds of making money in the stock market with day trading and short-term investing. How the stock market can be gambling, speculating, saving or investing. How to be confident you are investing effectively.  
39:40 2/20/24
How to Easily Outperform Financial Advisors, Robo-Advisors & Index Investors
Financial freedom is what we all want. We talk to people about their finances all the time and most people just want to know that their money is there, and they can live their life the way they want, but very few Canadians actually get there. Why? Most Canadians are not financially secure because of sub-optimal investments and focusing on the wrong risk. In my latest podcast episode I’m going to show you how to outperform all these methods: How to easily outperform financial advisors, robo-advisors, and index investors. Why is good performance important for your life? What rate of return do you need to become financially independent? What are the 4 performance drags that reduce investment returns? What is the Asset Allocation Loss Ratio (AALR)? Why is it easy to outperform financial advisors? What is wrong with the investment industry definition of “risk”? Why is it easy to outperform robo-advisors? Why is it easy to outperform index investors? How can you learn to think properly about investing? What are the secrets to outperforming?  
36:13 2/15/24
The Quest To Find All Star Fund Managers
When you’re planning for your future you need to have a sound investment strategy, that gives you confidence that you’ll eventually have the retirement that you’ll want. The best way to understand this is with a hockey analogy. Would it be more effective for me to go on the ice and stickhandle and shoot, or for me to pick an NHL superstar to play for me? I learned that it is much more effective to study & hire the top investment managers, than to try to be one. The stock market is much more complex than people think it is. Our process is hiring the world’s best investors to invest for us. We call them “All Star Fund Managers”. We think this gives our clients the best chance to achieve their goals. In my latest podcast episode you’ll learn: What I mean when I say the term: “All Star Fund Manager”. Characteristics of an “All Star Fund Manager”. Why you want to pick a fund manager who invests very differently from the index. Why it’s important to look at quality when it comes to paying for fund managers. Why Ed Rempel invests with the same fund managers that we recommend for our clients.  
04:24 2/13/24
2 Things You Must Focus On To Be Financially Secure
Do you feel financially secure?  What would it take for you to build a huge nest egg to become financially secure? Conventional wisdom says it’s mostly about investing better. It suggests you should focus on getting a higher return or lower fees. My experience, though, is surprisingly completely different. I have seen the full finances of thousands of people. The ones focused on investing usually had small portfolios. I call these people “performance maniacs”. Typical portfolios I have seen are usually under $200,000. By comparison, when I meet people much less interested in investing with mutual fund portfolios and working with advisors, they tend to have much larger portfolios of $300,000 to $1 million and often much larger. A comprehensive study by CIRANO showed people with advisors had 4.2 times more financial assets - after adjusting for age, income, gender and almost 50 other factors. In my latest podcast episode you’ll learn: 2 things you must focus on to achieve financial security. 4 key positive traits of people who work with financial advisors. Why financial planning – not investing – is the key to financial security. Why having a retirement plan is a huge factor in both achieving financial security and having a large nest egg.  9 benefits of having a financial plan.  
03:38 2/6/24
Short Overview: RRSP Gross-up Strategy - Easily Contribute 40-70% More to Your RRSP (2024)
The RRSP Gross-up Strategy is a relatively simple concept that can help you contribute 40-70% more to your RRSP, without using any more of your cash. Do this every year and you can retire with 40-70% higher income for life! The last podcast was quite detailed, while this episode is a quick and concise overview of the strategy. In my latest podcast episode you’ll learn: The 3 tax refund options. What is the RRSP Gross-up Strategy? What you need to know before you start this strategy (facts & figures). 6 factors for your optimal RRSP contribution. The RRSP Gross-up Formula. The RRSP Catch-up Strategy. An RRSP Catch-up Strategy example. The RRSP Catch-up Strategy result. RRSP Catch-up + RRSP Gross-up.
25:51 2/1/24
RRSP Gross-up Strategy - Easily Contribute 40-70% More to Your RRSP
Wouldn’t it be great if you could save a lot more for your future without affecting your day-to-day cash flow? One of the main things you learn from your retirement plan is that you need a lot more to retire comfortably than you may have thought.  But with all the day-to-day expenses, it can be difficult to find the money to contribute as much as you would like to your RRSP. The RRSP gross-up strategy is a simple strategy that can be a game-changer for you. It can enable you to easily contribute 40-70% more to your RRSP – every year. The strategy works if you already expect a tax refund. If you contribute monthly to your RRSP or have various tax deductions or credits, you probably expect a tax refund. The RRSP Gross-up Strategy can be an even bigger life-changer if you have lots of RRSP room. Canadians have nearly $1 trillion available contribution room. It is smart to gross-up every RRSP contribution you make. In my latest podcast episode you’ll learn: Why contribute to your RRSP? What is the optimal amount for you to contribute? How contributing 40-70% more can be life changing. What is the RRSP Gross-up Strategy? Real life examples. RRSP Gross-up formula. How to estimate your tax refund accurately. What is the RRSP Catch-up Strategy? How to combine the RRSP Gross-up + RRSP Catch-up Strategies.  
25:50 1/30/24
Tax Planning for Parents
Are you a parent? If yes - you’re probably paying a lot more tax. Parents are often in higher tax brackets than non parents. This means your planning must be diligently looked at, as it can affect your RRSPs, deductions, and more. I’ve talked about this topic before on my blog, but this is the updated version. In my latest podcast episode you’ll learn: Why are effective tax rates higher for parents? Does the higher tax bracket for parents really start at only $17,000? How does the Canada Child Benefit (CCB) work? Why is the CCB clawback a game-changer for your tax planning? What are the benefits and how much is the clawback? What tax rates apply for parents? Why do parents benefit more from RRSP contributions? Why do parents benefit more from the Smith Manoeuvre? Why should parents avoid dividend-paying stocks? How does staying home with your kids affect your tax?
13:40 1/25/24
Why Simple Investment Stats Don't Give You Good Returns
If you’re investing in equities, you may be using various investment data software like Morningstar. The problem? Investment data often gets misused. This is because you may be looking at short-term stats and ratings from only the last 1-5 years. It takes a lot of effort looking at investment stats, but most people who do this incorrectly, don’t get good returns.  In my latest podcast episode, you’ll learn how to look at long-term data and how to use investment data effectively. Why do good investments have bad stats & ratings sometimes? Why do investors that use investment stats & ratings usually have lower returns? How do investment stats affect your behaviour? How the Dunning-Kruger effect happens when investing. How can you use investment data effectively? Common investing mistakes to avoid. Ed’s unconventional wisdom on using investment stats effectively. How does a Financial Plan change how you use investment stats? Why it’s important for your financial planner to study fund managers.  How fund managers often beat the index.   
39:09 1/23/24