The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast

Welcome to the first episode of The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast for 2025! This inaugural episode features a catch-up conversation with two old friends, Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman. They are the authors of the classic 1978 work on cults and mind control entitled Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change. Their research into cult psychology and tactics led them, in the late 1970s and early 80s, to investigate what was then the nascent Christian Right's involvement in American politics. They also noticed how much evangelicalism and fundamentalist Christianity had in common with the world of the cults. Currently they've released an update to their original 1982 book Holy Terror: The Fundamentalist War on America's Freedoms in Religion, Politics, and Our Private Lives. The "classic edition," which is now available, gives the reader new perspectives on the evangelical involvement in the Trump era. Find the new version of Holy Terror now available on Amazon! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

1/15/25 • 69:45

For this final podcast of 2024, I recently connected with Lauryn Axelrod--she's an interfaith/interspiritual minister, chaplain, spiritual director, and teacher out of Vermont. This is an especially poignant interview, as I've talked to several people this year about concepts of spirituality. Lauryn's suggestion that incorporating "Ten Words" into your life, as guiding principles or values, can indeed make the world a better place. This is all the more relevant now that America is so deeply divided and polarized, both politically and religiously. The question is: what can all the major religious worldviews and traditions teach us about spirituality? Dogma and doctrines aside, are there commonalities behind them all from which we can gain insights and understanding? And above all--is it indeed possible to make the world a better place by embracing interspirituality? Find out more about Lauryn on her site https://www.laurynaxelrod.com/ Get a copy of Lauryn's Book Ten Words on Amazon! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow me on X@MindShift2018

12/11/24 • 50:47

I recently caught up with returning guest Cait West, who has just come out with a great book entitled Rift: A Memoir of Breaking Away From Christian Patriarchy. Cait grew up in what is called the "stay-at-home-daughters" movement, which is a version of Christian patriarchy that, while seemingly extreme, is gaining traction in a lot of Christian homes. Driven by the teachings of men like Doug Wilson, Joel Webbon, and other leading evangelical figures, Christian or biblical patriarchy teaches that women should be in submission to their fathers and husbands--exactly what they believe the Bible teaches clearly. What is more concerning is that now, with Donald Trump in office for the next 4 years, Christian nationalists now have even more influence over laws and policies that affect Americans. That they want to run the government the same ways in which they run their churches, denominations, and families should be of major concern to everyone going forward. Find out more information about Cait's book here: https://www.caitwest.com/book Check out the "For Our Daughters" documentary here on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkES4X_qb6c Join The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

11/27/24 • 46:53

This week's guest features author Karen Unrue, whose book Blue Jellyfish Syndrome: How To Break Free From Stigma and Maintain Hope While Living With a Mental Illness is a great resource for those who have left either controlling religion or abusive relationships behind. But simply escaping is far from the end of the story. We can still be triggered by intrusive thoughts from our past that are debilitating and can blindside us. Unpicking the layers of conditioning is also extremely difficult, especially for those of us raised in controlling religious environments. And it's also the impact of the various traumas we've experienced that oftentimes linger with us for decades, long after the event that caused it is years in the past. Karen offers practical advice, helpful insights, and valuable resources to help us move forward and rebuild our authentic selves. Get a copy of Karen's book on Amazon! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow Me on X@MindShift2018

11/13/24 • 54:27

In this special election special bonus episode, I reached out to returning guest Matthew D Taylor, who has just come out with a brand-new book called The Violent Take it by Force: The Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy.  For those who are still undecided about their vote in the upcoming election, this is a must-listen. Given the fact that so much of the Trump MAGA support is generated by not just Christian nationalists, but extremists who are part of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), this is a major concern going forward. Matthew puts all the pieces together in this hugely informative discussion, telling the story of exactly how these so-called "apostles and prophets" coalesced together and found themselves part of Trump's inner circle of spiritual advisers during his presidency. Now, they are mobilizing tens of thousands of angry evangelicals not only to vote for Trump, but to engage in political violence should he lose the election. The threat to American democracy is clear, and these people have had four years to prepare themselves for whatever happens following this hugely important election. Find The Violent Take it by Force here on Amazon! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Follow Me On X @MindShift2018

11/3/24 • 61:19

This week's episode takes an in-depth look at the tragic murder/suicide that took place in Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978. Cult leader Jim Jones was responsible for not only controlling and manipulating his numerous dedicated followers, in the end, he forced nearly 1000 of them to commit suicide or be murdered. In the wake of this tragedy that occurred decades ago, Annie Dawid's book--a work of historical fiction--takes a fresh look at the lives of the followers of Jones. Not much is said about them, yet they were the backbone of the movement that on certain levels did accomplish many good things for a number of people. Beyond discussing her book, we also take a look at Jones's story, tracing the early start of The People's Temple in Indiana, looking at its moves to California and ultimately Guyana. That it ended in such a shocking way still has enduring lessons for us today, especially in the explosion of cults and cult leaders since the tragedy at Jonestown all those years ago. Find Annie's book on Amazon here: Join The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

10/30/24 • 47:32

If you've been following the storyline of what's happening to Project 2025, The Heritage Foundation, and Trump's presidential campaign, then you'll be familiar with some of what Chris Shelton and I discuss in this episode. There have been a number of important developments in this ongoing narrative, as Project 2025 began to be increasingly exposed by shows just like this one as well as on the mainstream media. Since then, not only has Trump attempted to deny and distance himself from it--as well as The Heritage Foundation--some other players have quietly stepped into the breach with a newly-proposed "presidential transition project." Not only do we discuss this new twist, we delve into the cult psychology and tactics used by such shadowy groups, but also of Trump himself, as he controls, manipulates, and influences his ultra-loyal MAGA cult base. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X@MindShift2018

10/16/24 • 58:21

How many of us have left religious beliefs behind, but have not entertained the idea that we might be able to find an aspect of spirituality that is truly meaningful? For those of us who've left controlling religions, it can be incredibly difficult even to entertain the notion that there might even be any aspect of spirituality that is appealing to us. But we might be closing ourselves off to deeper meaning and exploration if we refuse to acknowledge that there just might be something out there. Author Larry Jordan was a successful businessman who turned his back on the American dream, embracing service to others and in the process read over 1,000 books researching and exploring philosophy, religion, mysticism, and more. In the process he discovered something that truly changed his life--find out more in this fascinating interview! Find Larry's book The Way: Meaningful Spirituality for a Modern World here on Amazon. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow me on X@MindShift2018

10/2/24 • 46:34

For the first time ever, my show has been hijacked! My very good friend Tim Sledge, who is the editor and publisher of my new book, Not So Shiny Not So Happy People: How Bill Gothard, Church, and Family Taught Me Christianity Doesn't Work interviewed me recently about my book. Aside from me, there is nobody else on Earth who knows more about my book, as we have been working closely on it for about a year now. Tim is not only intimately connected with the book, as a former evangelical pastor and ex-Christian himself, Tim resonates a great deal with my story. I hope you enjoy this interview--and please, if you do buy a copy of my book on Amazon, do me a huge favor and leave a review! That helps greatly with the Amazon rankings. Link to Not So Shiny Not So Happy People on Amazon If the link doesn't work, on Amazon type in "Not So Shiny Not So Happy People Clint Heacock" and it will quickly locate the book. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X@MindShift2018

9/18/24 • 50:36

I'm excited to announce that my new book, Not So Shiny Not So Happy People: How Bill Gothard, Church, and Family Taught Me Christianity Doesn't Work is now available as of today!! The book is available as a paperback, Kindle EBook, and Audible Virtual Voice versions now. In this special episode, I'm reading the Preface chapter to the book, which is called "The Terror of an Empty House." I hope that not only do you enjoy this chapter, but that it prompts you to go out and buy the book. After you've read it, please leave a review on Amazon, which greatly helps with the book's rankings--and share the book with anyone who you think will resonate with its message. Here's the link on Amazon to Not So Shiny Not So Happy People. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow me on X@MindShift2018

9/11/24 • 25:25

For those of us who came out of fundamentalist Christianity, what happens when things go badly wrong in our lives? Do you have the temptation to pray, read the Bible, seek out a wise Christian counselor to discover answers for why this is happening to you? Within evangelicalism, the problem of suffering is a huge issue. There always has to be "an answer" as to why God allows--or even causes--bad things to happen to us. There must be a reason! My good friend Dean Krosecz and I break down this very topic after Dean shares about the traumatic experiences he's gone through in the last few years. Where was "God" in all of it? And can you create peace in the midst of suffering, alone without a supposedly benevolent being to lean on for support? Join The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow me on X@MindShift2018

8/28/24 • 41:28

A few months ago I caught up with author Tia Levings to discuss her new book, A Well-Trained Wife: My Escape from Christian Patriarchy. Tia is perhaps best known for her viral TikTok video, "Fundy Baby Voice"--and she knows what she's talking about. A product of the Bill Gothard "cult without walls," Tia was raised in the "modesty culture" and taught what it meant to be a "well-trained wife"--the so-called tradwife tradition so familiar to the Christian patriarchy and Quiverfull cultures. But after experiencing severe cognitive dissonance when comparing how she was raised versus how she was expected to raise her own children, Tia began to question--and ultimately escaped--this cult-like environment. Tia's Book Now Available on Amazon! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community Follow me on X @MindShift2018

8/14/24 • 48:56

Months ago I had a great conversation with author and adrenaline junkie, Ryan George. Following on in the trend of interviewing more progressive Christians--after chatting with Keith Giles recently--this seemed like a great time to drop this episode. Although he's been able to reclaim a version of Christianity for himself, Ryan and I found that we have a lot in common when comparing our upbringings within Christianity. Ryan grew up in an IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptist) tradition with a dad who was a pastor, and was also involved in the Bill Gothard IBLP cult. After suffering spiritual abuse and other forms of religious trauma, and walking away from the faith and church for years, how did Ryan recover his faith? Find out more in this great conversation! Check out Ryan's site for more information on his book and his life! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community Follow me on X @MindShift2018

7/31/24 • 50:31

This week's conversation features author, podcaster, and "freelance theologian" Keith Giles, who--although definitely no evangelical Christian--has moved past even being a progressive Christian. What does that make him? I don't know exactly, but it does make for a fascinating conversation with someone who has deconstructed his former fundamentalist beliefs. Keith is also a scholar, which makes the conversation about his new book The Quantum Sayings of Jesus a fascinating one. Which Jesus? Which gospel? And how does the Gospel of Thomas fit into that whole discussion? As a very progressive Christian, Keith has some great insights on the state of evangelicalism today, Christian nationalism and more. Check out Keith's blog on Patheos for more information! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

7/3/24 • 54:28

This week's episode features a fascinating conversation with Marissa Hackett, who grew up in a right-wing cult started by controversial radio host, Roy Masters. Originally starting out in the early 1960s, Masters spread his message nationwide through his radio show, tapes, and book sales. Based originally out of Los Angeles, Masters bought a ranch near Grants Pass, Oregon, in 1979--and urged his followers to move there. Along with connections to survivalists, conspiracy theories, and far-right political ideas, Masters acted as a form of messianic cult leader. He performed exorcisms, taught that women are subordinate to men, and that all problems in a family are the fault of the mother. Thus, Marissa grew up in a controlling environment combined with a strong message behind it...and somehow, she survived and is doing well today. Connect with Marissa on her "Breaking the Cycle" Substack. Join the Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

6/19/24 • 45:32

In this conversation with journalist and author Sarah McCammon, we discuss her book that just came out in March, called The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church. Not only does Sarah do a masterful job of explaining why so many "exvangelicals" have left the white evangelical church behind, she shares her own story of growing up evangelical, deconstructing, and ultimately walking away from her childhood faith. Along the way, Sarah's work blends diligent research with authentic examples of why people like her, and so many others, have simply had enough--for whatever reason--and couldn't deal with the cognitive dissonance, the "tension points" in their belief system, or whatever it was that led them to make the difficult decision to abandon their cherished belief system. Find Sarah's book here on Amazon! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

6/5/24 • 50:28

In this special bonus episode, I caught up with returning guest, Dr Sheri Pallas, as we discussed her brand-new book that just dropped on the 2nd of May, 2024. It's titled We Have Ruined God: My Journey Out of Religion and Into Unconditional Love, and from the conversation we had, it sounds like a fascinating and intriguing book. Why should people contemplate leaving religion, and their harmful dogmas and teachings, behind? Sheri takes a look at this issue and concludes that it is largely humanity that has "ruined God," in effect. But which God, exactly? The God of the Bible, or the deity (or deities) represented by any number of other religious belief systems? Beyond that, we talk about what "unconditional love" actually looks like, in practice, and why that is a far superior life philosophy than toxic religious doctrines. Buy Sheri's book on Amazon at this link--and if you do buy it, please leave a review! Join the DDP Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

5/22/24 • 54:15

I truly hope that you enjoy this great collaborative episode I recently did with Anna and Kari Jo, hosts of the fantastic Heretical Hippies podcast! We covered a lot of ground about their backstory, deconstruction of their former faith, and what they are doing--and believing--currently. I believe this will be a helpful discussion for all those who have questioned their inherited beliefs and are wondering what lies ahead. Part 2, their interview of me, is available on their platform--here's the link. Join the Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

5/10/24 • 39:26

Once again I'm joined by investigative journalist Jenny Cohn, who does a lot of writing for the Bucks County Beacon. Jenny has been on the show before and in this instance, I reached out to her because she's done a lot of work exposing and unmasking the agenda behind Project 2025. What if Donald Trump were to win the presidential election in November? Aside from casting an authoritarian vision for his administration going forward, perhaps the biggest concern is that this time, he and the GOP have learned from the mistakes they made the last time. This time around, Trump has an army of willing acolytes and sycophants who are already working hard to help him achieve his agenda from Day 1 in office. To that end, the Heritage Foundation has created Project 2025--and this is something that every American voter needs to educate themselves about. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

5/8/24 • 55:16

This week's episode features a wide-ranging discussing with Jonathan Davis, an ex-evangelical former pastor and seminary professor who deconstructed his former faith, questioned everything, and is on the journey. Ironically, it was closely studying his Bible that started Jonathan on this path of unpacking all his inherited beliefs and discovering his own identity in the process. Raised fundamentalist and homeschooled also, Jonathan served for a decade as a youth pastor, did another ten as a pastor, and finally started up a seminary before the entire ball of yarn began to unravel. For more information check out Jonathan's site. Join the MindShift Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

4/24/24 • 53:21

Welcome to a riveting Patreon-only episode of the MindShift Podcast, where we delve into the obscure but influential Project 2025. Explored through extensive research and interviews with high-profile figures such as Jenny Cohn and Andra Watkins, this episode unveils startling details about the project believed to have major implications for the future of American politics. The episode showcases a detailed analysis of Project 2025, a well-funded initiative with solid links to conservative and Christian right organizations. The project, known for its foundational four pillars, seeks to direct future conservative policies and significantly influence American politics. At the center of this episode is the powerful Heritage Foundation, one of America's most influential public policy think tanks that has played a significant role in shaping conservative presidential policies since the Reagan Era. We delve deep into its history, its "Mandate for Leadership" and seven policy priorities, revealing an ardent alignment with traditional conservative values and its opposition to perceived radical leftist policies. As we delve further into "Project 2025", an alarming proliferation of Christian Nationalism takes center stage, advocating for a scripture-based form of governance and legislation drastically aligning with conservative Christian beliefs. The episode, while discussing the project's extremist views on issues ranging from abortion to immigration policies and pornography, emphasizes the need for careful assessment of the potential seismic shift that comes alongside these beliefs. From the uncovering of the grand intentions of Project 2025 to turn the entire U.S. executive branch under the president's direct control to a critical examination of the network of organizations that have painstakingly collaborated with Project 2025, a narrative of impending changes in the political landscape unfolds. The episode concludes with an urgent call to action for listeners to understand and question the potential seismic shift this project could bring to America's political and social landscape. This episode of MindShift Podcast is an intense expedition into the workings of Project 2025. It is a comprehensive compilation of evidence against dangerous agendas and a guide into the inner workings of powerful organizations and individuals pushing for radical changes in American policies and ideologies. Get more great exclusive content like this by joining the MindShift Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

4/17/24 • 59:46

  Recently I reached out to my good friend--and returning guest--Frank Schaeffer, who has a very unique perspective on what's happening in the Trump/Christian Right world. As a former player himself in the late 1970s and early 80s, along with his famous father Francis, they helped to kickstart the evangelical anti-abortion movement. They were also instrumental in helping get the early Christian Right off the ground in their efforts to mobilize Christians to take political action. Now? Frank is, in his own words, "an atheist who believes in God..." and yet has a lot to say when it comes to exactly how the rabid followers of Trump are playing their endgame. The problem is this: what happens if they win? Is that a world you want to live in? Join the MindShift Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

4/10/24 • 57:15

I finally caught up with author and ex-evangelical Wren Story a few weeks ago. I have long followed her on Facebook and always resonated with much of what she writes about, since we have a lot in common! In this episode, Wren and I discuss not only her backstory growing up in an evangelical church setting, we'll also get into how she ended up getting out, as well as discovering--or perhaps recovering?--her authentic self. If like Wren you've left religion behind, but are struggling with your identity, I believe you will get a lot out of this conversation. Join the MindShift Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

3/27/24 • 46:08

If you have seen the Amazon Prime documentary "Shiny Happy People," then you'll benefit from this Patreon-only exclusive episode.  I do a deep dive into the background of this toxic and damaging teaching, as well as exploring the Bill Gothard Institutes in Basic Life Principles connection to it all. If like me, you were raised in this movement, then you're most likely suffering from some form of religious trauma syndrome, or have encountered abuses also. This content and more are exclusively available for Patreon supporters of MindShift Podcast. To support the show click this link: Join the MindShift Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

3/24/24 • 39:54

Recently I reached out to returning guest Katherine Stewart, author of The Power Worshipers and The Good News Club, for a chat about the new Rob Reiner film, "God and Country."   In the movie, Reiner takes a good hard look at Christian nationalism, and how elements of the more extreme side of the movement have affected not just America, but indeed the world.   It turns out that the film is essentially based on Stewart's work--so she is, once again, the perfect person to chat with about these concerning trends in American politics and religion.   Kyle Mantila has an excellent article on this on the Right Wing Watch website.    Join the MindShift Podcast Patreon Community!   Follow me on X @MindShift2018

3/6/24 • 33:36

I recently caught up with Dr Matthew Taylor, senior scholar at the Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies (ICJS) in Baltimore.   When it comes to the roots of the NAR--the New Apostolic Reformation--7 mountains mandate dominion theology, and more, Taylor is an absolute fount of information on these subjects, as you'll discover in this episode.   Moreover, what's even more concerning is that the new GOP Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, has longstanding affiliations with a number of NAR "prophets" and others in that camp who have long pushed their views that Christians should take dominion over society and politics. That he's also a Trump-supporting evangelical, third in line for the presidency, is yet another major concern.   To find more of Matthew's articles, click this Substack link to read more.   Join the MindShift Podcast Patreon Community!   Follow Matthew on X @TaylorMatthewD Follow me on X @MindShift2018

2/21/24 • 55:21

This week's episode features a conversation with author Sarah Hayward (no relation to David Hayward, "the Naked Pastor!") Sarah's book Giving Up God is all about walking away from organized religion, in this case Christianity, and yet trying to discover a sense of authentic spirituality.   For those of us who left a controlling religion behind, the idea of "spirituality" may be the last thing on our minds. But Sarah has an interesting take on the whole thing...I think you'll enjoy this refreshing conversation!   Find Sarah's Book Here on LakeDrive Books   Join the MindShift Podcast Patreon Community!   Follow me on X @MindShift2018

2/7/24 • 47:16

This episode marks now the second time I've done a crossover episode with Rachel Bernstein, host of the fantastic IndoctriNation podcast. As a therapist, cult expert, and specialist in dealing with folks who suffer from religious trauma syndrome, Rachel is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to dealing with a wide variety of issues caused by cults, fundamentalist religions, and other high-control groups. If you suffer from RTS, or have come out of a controlling religious or group background, you'll benefit from this discussion. And don't forget to head over to the IndoctriNation podcast platform to catch Part 1, Rachel's interview of me! Join the MindShift Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

1/24/24 • 38:08

MindShift Podcast is officially back for 2024!   And what better way to kick off another season of the show than to catch up with an old friend, Peter Montgomery of the Right Wing Watch?   In this first episode, Peter and I conduct a wide-ranging, thorough overview of the end of 2023 and look forward into this year, discussing the agenda of the Christian Right moving forward into 2024, which is a hugely important election year. Backing Trump to the hilt--at least most evangelicals anyway--they are poised to "take dominion" moving forward.   But what exactly does that mean, and more importantly, what does it look like if they win the Presidency again? Listen in to find out more!   Support the Show by Joining the MIndShift Podcast Patreon Community!   Follow Peter on X @PeteMont Follow me on X @MindShift2018

1/10/24 • 67:26

As a recent guest on Joshua's excellent podcast, "The Mediocre Observer," I was happy to return the favor and have Joshua on the show. I hope you enjoy this, the final episode of MindShift Podcast for 2023! In this wide-ranging discussion, Joshua and I discuss, among other things, why he was terrified to pick the wrong God in his quest for spirituality and enlightenment. So why didn't it work for him? Why did his quest fail, with the result that he's now an atheist speaking out against the dangers of religion and the Christian Right in American politics? Find out more--and enjoy the episode with me on Josh's show, which can be found on themediocreobserver.com.  Join the MindShift Podcast Patreon Community! Follow me on X @MindShift2018

12/20/23 • 66:43