The Emotional Labor Podcast

It is not often that I meet someone, living a very full personal and professional life, and who has figured out how to spread around the weight of emotional labor. But after speaking with my guest, Patricia De Fonte, I walked away from that conversation thinking that, wow, here’s a role model for delegating, dialoguing, and anticipating what’s coming up.  Patricia De Fonte is the brains and heart behind De Fonte Law PC, where "Estate Planning With Heart®" isn’t just a tagline—it’s the ethos of the practice.  Listen in on our conversation and you’ll hear how Patricia practices the principles of work and home equality in all of her affairs.  My favorite example … many years ago Patricia read an article on the work of the household, prompting a new narrative in her in own home. Rather than asking her sons and husband to “help” her with the chores, she reframed and said that the “house needs help.” To function properly, the house needs help to the laundry done, toilets scrubbed, etc. So ‘help the house’ is now my rally cry to GSD!! {get stuff/sh*t done!}   At her law firm she institutes planned time off from clients, shortened work days, and scheduling boundaries. With an LL.M in Estate Planning, Probate, and Trust Administration and a JD from Golden Gate University, plus a BA in Communication from Santa Clara University, Patricia’s academic credentials are just the beginning. Eight years ago, she set out to create a law firm where happiness is a priority—for her, her team, and most importantly, her clients. And it’s working! Patricia has not only contributed a chapter to a Wealth Counsel book, but she’s also been named a Super Lawyer multiple times and even snagged the Better Business Bureau Torch Award for Ethics. When Patricia’s involved, you know you’re in good hands! patricia@defontelaw.com www.defontelaw.com 415-735-6959

9/9/24 • 40:38

Dr. Loleen Berdahl and Dr. Christie Schultz Since its inception, the Emotional Labor podcast has delved deep into the mental load of emotional labor as it exists within the home. Our guests have included authors and researchers whose work intersects with the many invisible layers of emotional labor at home. In this episode, we are thrilled to discuss a fascinating series of articles published on Canada’s University Affairs website, authored by Loleen Berdahl and Christie Schultz. Loleen Berdahl is an award-winning university instructor, the executive director of the Johnson Shoyama Graduate School of Public Policy (Universities of Saskatchewan and Regina), and a professor and former head of political studies at the University of Saskatchewan. Christie Schultz is the dean of the Centre for Continuing Education and an associate professor in the Faculty of Education at the University of Regina. Loleen and Christie examine how the mental load of emotional labor manifests in the academic workplace and higher education institutions. Their research highlights that this weight disproportionately falls on the shoulders of women and diverse faculty members. In our conversation, we explored various facets of care management and the ethics of care when students present emotional and mental health challenges to faculty. We discussed how DEI committee work and campus decolonization activism often rely on faculty support, and how students tend to see their female professors as 'safe' providers of care and support, driven by societal stereotypes. Our discussion ranged from applying care ethics in the academy, identifying challenges and solutions, understanding institutional support, and envisioning the future of care in academia. We concluded with a thought-provoking question: What would happen if we centered care in all aspects of life? The full series of articles is available on the University Affairs website for those interested in delving deeper into this crucial topic. https://universityaffairs.ca/career-advice/the-skills-agenda/leading-with-care-emotional-labour-and-academic-leadership/ https://universityaffairs.ca/career-advice/the-skills-agenda/the-skills-of-care-navigating-emotional-labour-in-academia/ https://universityaffairs.ca/career-advice/the-skills-agenda/acknowledging-the-emotional-labour-of-academic-work/

7/4/24 • 55:15

Dr. Susan Landers retired from her work as a neonatologist – a career that spanned 34 years. But alas, although “retired” Dr. Susan found, “I just could not sit still.” Sharing compelling stories from her medical practice with her book club members, as she shouldered the heavy load of raising a family, her cohort encouraged her Susan to write about her experiences. As such, Susan went from birthing babies to birthing a book, and in 2021, So Many Babies: My Life Balancing a Busy Medical Career and Motherhood. was born.  I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Susan  – smart, thoughtful, and reflective, she shared the evolution of how she came to understand how she grew a successful career, stayed married, and raised 3 children. She describes her journey through the decades.  Dr.Susan’s husband, Phillip, a practicing physician in his own right (Pediatrics) did a lot around the house when the kids were young but Susan recognized that she was carrying the bulk of the physical work and the mental load of emotional labor. She said it took her 10 years to figure out how to ask for help because before asking for help she was growing resentful of all that was on her plate, and Philip did not intuitively know how to partner with her in the household. And so she had to learn to identify the need and ask for help. The second decade of marriage was all about helping Philip learn to listen, instead of wanting to fix things. Which brought the couple to a new and more sustainable way to communicate.   In this, her fourth decade of marriage and just a few years out of a fulfilling career, Dr. Susan Love speaks to women in the struggle to find their footing amidst a culture that expects women to do all the work. To that end, aside from her book, Dr Landers offers cool, and very accessible Ebooks – free to download – resources for parents – to discover real conversations about, and real hacks for, finding that footing, and feel steady on solid ground. 

12/6/23 • 56:49

David Smith is an Associate Professor of Sociology at Johns Hopkins University.  Carey Business School. I came across his name when I read a review for his second book, Good Guys: How Men Can Be Better Allies for Women in the Workplace  (Harvard Business Review Press, 2020).    What I find remarkable and special about David, was learning about his “why.” When I asked how he came to understand the need for gender equity in the paid workplace, Dr. David told me the story about his, and his wife’s 1987 graduation from the Naval Academy – both leaving the institution with the same degrees and embarking on parallel careers. It didn’t take him long to understand that where he had unlimited and easy access to career advancement resources, his wife was given no such access and was forced to find her way in order to advance her career. Consequently his doctoral research in Sociology examined dual-career families which led to his first book, along with co-author, Dr. Brad Johnson, Athena Rising: How and Why Men Should Mentor Women.   David’s work today focuses on gender equity within organizations and how all gender equity begins in the home. His research shows that men who worked from home during the pandemic enjoyed the benefits of connecting with their family life in deeper and meaningful ways. To maintain that connection from the office – they “leave loudly” for their family obligations – walking out the front door, and announcing to bosses and co-workers that they have to run their kids to soccer practice or be with them at the dentist. Men “leaving loudly” has given rise to women doing the same – rather than heading out the backdoor hoping no one will notice that you have a dental appointment with your child – dads’ deepening relationships at home make it okay, and safer, for women to do the same thing. It was this conversation, and so much more, that made me feel more positive than I have about reaching gender equity at home which David believes can be realized within the next generation, so long as the paid workplace can provide employees with the flexibility to show-up authentic humans with family responsibilities despite and in spite, of their gender.  Find out more about David here: Website: workplaceallies.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidgsmithphd/

11/17/23 • 55:53

Back when she was starting her family, Gifty Enright wished she had in her tool-kit, the language of Emotional Labor. Granted, she may have avoided a lot of grief and despair, but then again, we would have never known her gift for putting to words the feelings she had when she Just. Burned. Out., and as described in her book, The Octopus On A Treadmill. Gifty has spent a good chuck of her professional life in accounting and IT – working hard to be successful as her male counterparts without at first recognizing that her male counterparts were actually doing only half the work, considering it that is was unlikely that successful men were also responsible for the management of the home, or so-called, ‘women’s work.’ Like nearly all women, Gifty was raised to believe that if she wanted it ‘all’ she had to be willing to do it all. And then she burned out.    And now, Gifty Enright is a speaker, author, communicator, and coach – working specifically with mothers in their roles as professionals in the paid workplace, and moms in the unpaid workplace (home). She has so much to say about the importance of making visible the work of the household, instructing her clients and their spouses to list all the jobs they perform at home, and then compare and share the lists with each other. Her clients come to her feeling like failures, that they are stagnating professionally, losing ground to their male counterparts and losing confidence along the way. For Gifty – mothers are the center of gravity – they hold the world together and need a hell of a lot more support – and boundaries – to go out and contribute to the world on their terms. At home, this means establishing a baseline for “good enough,” partnering with the other adult in the household, and giving the children opportunities to contribute to the management of the home – because “even a 2-year-old can drag her pajamas to the laundry room.” 

10/18/23 • 58:01

Joanna Schroeder is a force. She’s at the forefront of the spreading the word about raising non-sexist, non-racist sons, and so I can’t wait to read her latest book, Talk to Your Boys: 27 Crucial Conversations to Have With Your Tweens and Teen Sons due early 2025.  Joanna is also a writer, editor and feminist media critic. She was raised by a feminist and knows well the phrase, ‘We can do it all,’ to which Joanna responds, ‘But we shouldn’t have to.”  She gave me a new way of thinking about the parent who ‘does it all’ – more as the ‘default parent’ – the person is who carrying the weight of household management and labor. She describes how she and her family regularly negotiate and renegotiate the terms of household. Daily conversations affirm and confirm the ideology and values of their home. I just love this model.  She has worked in digital publishing for more than a decade, having served as executive editor of The Good Men Project and senior editor of YourTango, where she currently serves as Managing Editor of the well-respected Experts Program.  A graduate of UCLA's Gender Studies department, she brings a critical eye to the editing and creation of highly-shareable digital content. She is best known for her viral parenting content, which is proudly feminist, anti-racist and progressive. Her work has appeared in The New York Times and Boston Globe newspapers and in publications such as Good Housekeeping, Cosmopolitan, Yahoo, The Huffington Post, Time, Bright Magazine, Kveller, and Vox. She also writes a weekly Substack, Zooming Out. ​She is also a lead author of Confronting Conspiracy Theories and Organized Bigotry at Home: A Guide For Parents & Caregivers published in partnership with The Western States Center. Her upcoming book, Talk To Your Boys: 27 Crucial Conversations To Have With Boyrs Today and How to Start Having Them, will be available in 2025 via Workman Publishing, co-authored with Christopher Pepper.

9/6/23 • 57:42

It’s not often I read an article with the words “gender equity” embedded in the title. I had not finished reading Sara Madera’s article, Why Achieving Gender Equity at Home is Still Tougher That At Work when I started my email to Sara inviting her to the Emotional Labor podcast.  And I’m so glad that I did.  Aside from being an insightful writer, Sara Madera brings her understanding of gender equity at home as a career coach for working moms. Sara comes to her knowledge of household equity through experience – living with her spouse and children and having what sounds like substantive conversations about the shared work load. Her coaching practice is inclusive in that couples are coached in her program called, “Home Work,” where wives and husbands discuss individual and shared values, where individual strengths and how those strengths contribute to a shared system toward household equity. 

8/9/23 • 49:49

Dr. Shahrzad Nooravi is a business psychologist, Master Certified Coach (MCC) and Founder and CEO of Strategy Meets Performance, a business consulting firm that partners with leaders of mid-sized to Fortune 500 organizations to help them create engaging, innovative, and productive cultures. Dr. Nooravi has been named “Trailblazer of the Year,” “Citizen of the Year,” and “A Voice to Listen to” for driving positive change in her community. Her new leadership book, "A Powerful Culture Starts with You" was rated as the #1 New Release in Workplace Culture and Best Seller in Business Coaching. I met Dr. Sharzad this past year thought a mutual business networking group. Within moments into our first conversation, I knew I had made a really good friend because she thinks deeply about many things and seeks to make the world around her better. As an author, speaker, consultant, and coach, Sharzad turns her lens on corporate culture. Taking a deep dive to assess the culture of the workplace – vertically and horizontally – she makes important recommendations for the C-Suite execs to incorporate diversity, equity, and inclusion. Her services create engaging cultures where employees give their all and decide to stay with the company, ultimatly positively impacting the company's brand and bottom line. Sharzad and I talked about how companies can create a meaningful hybrid workplace to honor employees with families (read: women) by first understanding company values, and then showing the value of meaningful engagement with diversity, equity, and inclusion, followed by  the implementation of strategies, policies, processes, and procedures that enjoin a more cohesive paid workplace. Company website: www.strategymeetsperformance.com Book website: www.apowerfulculture.com Buy her book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Powerful-Culture-Starts-You-Cultivate/dp/B09ZC1P3BQ/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1684815496&sr=8-1 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shahrzadnooravi/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.shahrzadnooravi/

7/19/23 • 41:37

Kelly Ryan Bailey is our guest this week and I’m excited to introduce her to our Emotional Labor podcast community. An entrepreneur, speaker, advisor, investor, spouse, and… mama of 3 – Kelly is one smart woman who has parlayed her life experience with major burn-out at the tender age of 36 – into viable business entities. From her SkillsBaby.com platform, Kelly offers workshops, global retreats, and, her new endeavor on Linked In, Let’s Talk Live, focusing on monetizing unpaid labor, which is brilliant.   We had a wonderful conversation about the ways in which culture and society sets up expectations of what it means to be female at home, especially what it means to be a mom. For so long, Kelly, experienced and felt “mom, guilt” if she didn’t meet these expectations. She shared the story about how, one day, her “body stopped” when she was 36 years old. She just had her third child (and third high-risk pregnancy), and the weight of managing a household, caring for two small children, and the pressure she experienced from her boss to get back up and out, flattened her for weeks. Mom guilt steeped through, and she felt like a failure. She said, “everybody loves you when you do things for them, but when you’re not able, guilt becomes stronger and deeper."  Kelly pulled herself through the abyss… And as a result, her goal in life is to empower working mothers. One of the reasons I think her Linked In, Let’s Talk Live, with a focus on monetizing unpaid labor, which is brilliant is because it pulls back the curtain on the value of the unpaid labor at home, I just love this idea so much. 

7/5/23 • 59:57

I started my organizing business two months after my university job layoff. An academic at heart, I devoured a lot books to help me learn my new craft. And it was with great excitement and glee when I can across Sari Solden’s, Women with Attention Deficit Disorder. Page after page of important insight and analysis of how the mental load of emotional labor lands on the ADD females typically raised to do all the work household management (aka –‘women’s work’). Sari expands the definition of emotional labor by adding the invisible concepts of empathy  - and -- spending time on enhancing the quality of the relationship and the value these bring to the household and to paid workplace. In fact we spoke at length about how to make visible myriad invisible tasks of household management, and then elevate those tasks to expose their value. Sari also described several ways to bring value to all the work women do to keep those around them comfortable, happy, and safe: Practice awareness (Oh! This is emotional labor!) List all the tasks and chores that are not pleasurable and allow for the consequence of not doing them Don’t delegate what is critical and lean away from the need for control Concentrate on making the work of emotional labor VERY visible Make a decision to not carry resentment She also recently announced the re-release and updated print of her classic ADHD Book, Journeys Through ADDulthood Discover a New Sense of Identity and Meaning While Living with Attention Deficit Disorder. Please click here to be notified when the book is released and to save a spot on for the Journeys Through ADDulthood FREE Webinar. I just loved my conversation with Sari and I hope you do too!  

6/21/23 • 52:42

Maureen Nolan is an ‘attention coach’ who is using the book, Emotional Labor: Why A Woman’s Work is Never Done and What To Do About It with her clients seeking the ability to focus, and improve awareness about relationships. A specialist in working with people with executive function challenges, Maureen works with her clients through the lens of the client’s past traumas to help identify attachment styles, attention styles, and how in adulthood we mimick the people who were important in our lives which if trauma-based doesn’t typically work for a happy and emotionally healthy adulthood. And we had an interesting conversation about all of it. Shorty after we spoke, Maureen shared this: Harvard Gazette   https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/03/counting-invisible-work-in-household-division-of-labor/ Maureen can be reached at: https://maureennolan.net/  

5/2/23 • 42:32

Megan Hauser is a force. She’s a researcher, educator, mother, wife, and gender justice advocate. A doctoral candidate in Education and Research at Lehigh University, Megan is doing interesting work, specializing in time-use and investigating the disproportionality of female-identifying teachers to female-identifying administrators in the U.S. public school system, and the gendered division of labor. She knows the weight of emotional labor. We had such an interesting conversation about her research; Megan adds to the canon of emotional labor as she describes how being “future oriented” – thus shifting the boundaries of women’s lives. In a world that likes to tell women how to spend their time, Megan believes women deserve to create their own boundaries. She is committed to engaging in research and dialogue that views women’s time through an intersectional lens. Megan can be reached at: https://meganlhauser.com/  

5/2/23 • 36:14

Lisa Levey’s book, The Libra Solution is a 2012 exploration of thoughts and ideas we continue to examine to this day - namely, strategies and solutions for household equity. Lisa is a recognized expert in the fields of women's leadership, diversity, and work-life integration. She lives with her husband and two sons in the Boston area. Her work is very inclusive of men, referring to her husband, as a “manbassador’ for modeling the good work of care equity, prioritizing time for self/each other. To Reach Lisa: https://librasolutioncoaching.com/ - a great site with links to The Libra Solution, and other resources including on of Lisa’ favorite articles, 6 Strategies for Co-Parenting Before Divorce   Lisa would also like you to know that she provides complimentary consultations for couples interested in coaching.  

5/2/23 • 41:22

Judith Kolberg is my long time friend and colleague, and, as of 2 years ago, my brilliant collaborator as well.   The Emotional Labor book would not be what it is without Judith’s talents – as an editor and writer, and as a listener. Our work together on the book was delightful and fun, and Judith’s sense of humor shows up on many pages.    Our podcast conversation covers  a range of topics – how executive function skills show up in ‘doing’ emotional labor, the invisible work of sequencing, how self-care happens with left over time, and we also talk about our collaboration and the benefits of working with a writing and book coach.   Judith founded the Atlanta-based professional organizing company, FileHeads Professional Organizers in 1989. She is credited with launching an entire field of professional organizing specifically dedicated to addressing the needs of individuals who are challenged by chronic disorganization. She founded the National Study Group on Chronic Disorganization, the precursor to the Institute for Challenging Disorganization (ICD). Her innovative organizing methods are described in four commercially successful books. Judith’s depth of experience and humorous delivery has made her a popular international speaker worldwide on various organization/disorganization issues. Respected by her peers as an industry thought-leader, she is the recipient of the organizing industry’s highest awards and has been honored with the creation of the Judith Kolberg Award. Judith is a former President of the GA chapter of the National Association of Professional Organizers; an emeritus member of NAPO, and a member of the ICD.   A native of Levittown, New York, Judith is a graduate of the State University of New York at Binghamton with a degree in Sociology. She currently lives in Atlanta, where she takes care of her mom, sees clients and is a book coach helping authors write and publish their books.   You can reach Judith here: https://www.judithkolberg.com/  

5/2/23 • 43:36

Aashi Arora, founder of iRise Executive Coaching, is a successful and smart business coach. She’s got an interesting niche – working with healthcare professionals in  leadership development, career transitions, and emotional intelligence. She’s also a life coach for executive level professional women. We had a great conversation about how she works with her clients through their  “wheel of life,” and to discover ways helps her clients professionally, and personally, show up for themselves.   You can reach Aashi at: https://www.iriseexecutivecoaching.com/

5/2/23 • 38:01

Tiffany Blassingame is my good friend and colleague, and a contributor to my book on emotional labor. She’s also a thought-leader, education, school administrator, mom to a high scholar and athlete, and all around decent human being. As a productivity expert and professional organizer, Tiffany founded the National Association of Black Professional Organizers. Tiffany is a nationally recognized expert on the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and spoke about, among other things, how emotional labor shows up in households of color. She adds to the narrative of this body work work and definition when she asks, “what parts of me are being put aside, in order to shoulder the weight of emotional labor. Tiffany started Simple Organization to provide organizing and productivity strategies to help others develop a more organized approach to home, work, and school.  As a divorced parent of a teenage son and a school administrator, she understands the delicate balance between raising children, progressing toward personal goals, working in your career, and being a good steward to others and to yourself. It sometimes feels impossible to keep it all together!  Tiffany is a member of the National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals (NAPO) as well as a founding member of the National Association of Black Professional Organizers (NABPO) where she serves as the Director of Inclusion and Belonging.  She is also a professional organizer with Ebony & Orderly, a collaboration of 6 Black professional organizers in Atlanta. She speaks frequently on the topics of diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice on various platforms. Tiffany is also the Founding Head of School of The Ferguson School, a progressive Christian school in Decatur, GA. You can reach Tiffany at: https://tiffanyblass.wordpress.com/    

5/2/23 • 55:38